Waiter! The reality check, please.....

I've been getting a number of calls lately from people looking for adult females, some of which are still producing babies of cultivars very much in demand. And some of them got right miffed when I told them that it would be senseless for me to sell an adult female at this time of year when she would be breeding shortly and all I would need to do is to harvest the eggs and hatch out the babies myself.

So do the math, please. If I have an adult female Blood Red corn, for instance, and you want to buy it, multiply the number of expected offspring this July (figure an average of 16) then multiply that number by what my price list shows they have been selling for (currently $75 each). In this example, we come up with potentially $1,200 worth of babies from this one female. Tell me, why I would even consider selling such an animal for substantially LESS then that amount? Even if I bulked out all of the babies at half price, we are still talking about a $600 animal based ONLY on the babies she would produce this season. There is no reason at all why I shouldn't expect that same result next season. So if I have a female available with a potential 5 year breeding life (or better) remaining, what is the actual value of this animal from a business perspective?

So please, if anyone is looking to buy adult females this time of year, think a little bit about what they are really worth. Yeah, you may just luck into one, but quite honestly I would be highly suspect of bargain basement prices for adult females just prior to breeding season from anyone.

But yes, if you have done the figuring and are willing to pay a REALISTIC price for an adult female, sure, let me know. I may just do that, you never know.

Heck, for that matter, I have had people tell me that the price I wanted for an adult male was too much. Yet they would have been able to make 2 to 3 times the price of that snake if they had it for breeding stock this year. Clearly a case of being penny wise and dollar foolish. As indicated above, just do the math about what the male you want to get the most optimum results from your female(s) is REALLY worth to you.

OK, so I guess that is the Corn Snake Business 101 lesson for the day here...........

dontcha love people?

And people wonder why I'm such a hermit! Yes, I love breeding and raising animals, it's just the dealing with people that drives me up a wall! Very frustrating when people want your best for next to nothing! Anyhow, we keep telling ourselves most people are pretty darn cool to work with. And yes, it does seem crazy to sell breeding adults! But what I find funny is that people actually get upset with you when you tell them no? Makes you wonder why they can't figure it out! :shrugs:

So I guess a gravid female is out of the question.... :grin01: Thanks for sharing what it may be like in another couple years... can't wait... Guess you could always go the dog route and put your males up for stud fees...

This reminds me of the saying I heard when I first got into IT work in 1990 (and have repeated to others all too often).......

"Lack of preparation on your part does NOT constitute an emergency on my part."

regards,
jazz

Lol!

Jazz! love the reply, and yes, that is so very true in this instance! And better to be a bit overprepared in case of accidents! With any breeding project, your better off buying a couple males and FEMALES! Something I'm faced with every time a female goes egg bound...I could lose her! And so it's a good thing keeping stuff in at least 1.2 trios to help out the odds. And HOPE Murphy lets you have two clutches! I always get nervous this time of year as it gets close to egg laying time. I worry about losing anyone to egg binding. Some of these females are the only ones I've got of that certain variety. It's also what plays a part in what I hold back every year. It's a gamble for sure!

Well I have some advice for everyone. If you REALLY want to put the odds in your favor of doing well with a particular cultivar, make darn sure you have at LEAST 2.2 of them. Whenever I get orders for something like 1.4 of a particular type of animal, I think to myself, "Yeah, this guy will be calling me up in a panic in two years when that male escapes or dies on him....."

You mean you wont sell me an adult bloodred female for $200? You're a mean person! :grin01:

Actually I wonder, from a business standpoint, why would you even sell any blood adults? I obviously don't know your inventory numbers, but bloods have to be the #1, or at least top 3 demanded snake every hatchling season. It seems like you're sold out of most things bloodred by the time Daytona rolls around. Surely if an adult female will net you on average $1200, why even sell one?

Thanks for Cheering Me Up!

I'm so glad you posted this Rich! I don't know how many people in the last 3 months have contacted me for 'adult size' males and females. I realize that there is a shortage of 'higher end' morphs in Canada but why do people think as a hobbyist breeder I would want to sell my adult females. To say the least, I was getting pretty 'miffed' about the inquiries...one inquiry even replied with.....'well, could I buy her after she lays her eggs? That way I could at least double clutch her'.......

My collection is very large, but these girls are my 'babies' I've raised from hatchlings.....some I have invested 4 years in raising to breeding size for projects I would like to dabble in. And this guy wants to 'buy her' strictly to double clutch her.......that will be the 'frosty Friday'!!!!!

Some people never acquire the 'passion', just the 'fever'.......thanks for reinforcing what I was really 'thinking'......

Best of luck with the season,

Ruth Hanney

I was asked to sell one of my breeders last year by someone who wanted 'a bigger snake' they didn't even intend to breed her, just a pet for their kid, Since I was downsizing anyway I agreed to sell them an adult female snow, they got her a really nice viv and the snake gets a lot of attention, pampered compared to my snakes! I had mixed thoughts but after meeting them and seeing that the snake would go to a great home I agreed to sell her. They asked so many questions and even bought the corn snake manual before coming to pick her up...
I had one more proven female snow left to sell and was offered money by another person. Again it was for their kid... But this kid had a history of pet snakes dying and the parents seemed like they wouldn't touch a frozen mouse. They actually wanted my male anery too so they could breed corns. This time I said No! and eventually found a more reptile-savvy person to buy the pair.
I do have some females I have raised up from hatchlings intending to breed, I would have to be pretty desperate to part with them after waiting so long for them to reach adulthood. I may have to move again and downsize some more but if I have to sell some more of my collection I will be selling the hatchlings and 1 year olds and keeping the bigger girls. I put all the work into raising them. why should someone else reap the benefits?

Heh heh. And when trying to sell adults during the fall, people act like you're crazy to ask anything more than hatchling prices for them. :crazy02:

Joejr14 said:

Actually I wonder, from a business standpoint, why would you even sell any blood adults? I obviously don't know your inventory numbers, but bloods have to be the #1, or at least top 3 demanded snake every hatchling season. It seems like you're sold out of most things bloodred by the time Daytona rolls around. Surely if an adult female will net you on average $1200, why even sell one?

Click to expand...

That's an easy one: Because I have other snakes growing up that will produce either one of two things for me:

1. Babies worth a LOT more then $1200
2. Babies that will be a LOT more interesting to me to see when they hatch out.

In every case I can think of EVERY female sold is worth MUCH more then the money I can get for her. Sometimes I do anyway, and other times I simply contact a wholesaler/exporter and back them up, unlabeled, to be sold into the pet trade. Of course I don't get very much for them that way, but it helps keep from damaging the market.

Serpwidgets said:

Heh heh. And when trying to sell adults during the fall, people act like you're crazy to ask anything more than hatchling prices for them. :crazy02:

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See above. If I have to sell them cheaply, they don't go to the general public. Matter of fact, my preference is to sell to a wholesaler who primarily exports most of the adults out of the USA.

I don't understand what all the complaining is about.

The way I see it, adults should be about the same as babies...especially if they are proven. Here is the proof:

You buy a pair of Bloods from some guy named Rich for $75 each for a total of $150.

You are conservative with your feeding so you feed once a week 50 weeks out of the year (you miss a few due to shedding) and you plan to breed them in 3 years. So...that is 50 meals the first year, 50 the second, and 35 the third as you brumate them that year. Total for both snakes: 270 mice. Now, lets say you spent $0.50 per mouse. That price is: $135.

Okay, by breeding season you have spent $285 in food and snakes.
Let say caging and habitat requirements are $100

Now you are at $385.

You successfully breed them and produce 10 eggs which all hatch. Since you have waited 3 years for breeding the price has gone down....lets say 33%. So you sell bloods for $50ea. You sell all of them for $500.

Now, you take your money you made ($500) and subtract your money spent ($385) and you have $115 which amounts to your 'profit' or you could say your '3-year wage' for time involved.

Now, if someone calls you for an adult Blood you should not ask a whole lot for since you have already made you money back and then some. In fact, if you were nice you would give her away because you are in the plus zone. Just think, if you sold her for what you paid for her...you would be up another $150! Your total for this endeavour would be $265 POSITIVE.

Right? oke: :sidestep:

Am I missing something?
:crazy02: :wavey:
:grin01:

Rich Z said:

See above. If I have to sell them cheaply, they don't go to the general public. Matter of fact, my preference is to sell to a wholesaler who primarily exports most of the adults out of the USA.

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I agree. I have placed several proven adults as pets. By "you" I also meant "me" because I like putting my adults for sale in the fall... that's when the people who are actually planning stuff will buy them for what they're worth and I can ignore those who don't "get it." I don't see any reward in catering to the impatient or those who don't plan ahead. (Plus my brumation schedule is way off, if you buy an adult from me during the normal breeding season, it ain't gonna do anything for you until next year anyway, hehe.)

MohrSnakes said:

You are conservative with your feeding so you feed once a week 50 weeks out of the year (you miss a few due to shedding) and you plan to breed them in 3 years. So...that is 50 meals the first year, 50 the second, and 35 the third as you brumate them that year. Total for both snakes: 270 mice. Now, lets say you spent $0.50 per mouse. That price is: $135.

Click to expand...

LMAO! I know your post was tongue in cheek, but I don't count feeder mice as "value" any more than I consider how much the previous owner of a used car spent on filling it with gas and oil changes over the years.

MohrSnakes said:

Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

No doubt at all about that.........

Well it seems in general that most of the public wants to buy @ wholesale.
However when it's time for them to sell They demand retail. When I sell an adult animal it's because I no longer need it, or it has been replaced by a much finer specimen. Some times you are tired of breeding certain items and
are ready to start a new project. :shrugs:
To sell an adult @ hatchling prices is ridiculous! :twoguns: If the asking price
isn't met, It gets bred.I can use the $ too! :cheers:

He's kidding, right???

It's human nature to try to get the best deal you can, of course it's ridiculous to expect someone to sell a female at rock bottom price but some people just have their nerve. I do flea market selling sometimes, & when I get offered an insultingly low amount I usually just double the price on the spot. That gets rid of most of the cheapskates!!
So...I guess we won't be seeing a surplus female sale in the near future then? (J/K)