British Mice :(

[TWGarland]

Just had to share with you guys what i found out today on my mouse buying mission.

First off, this is the first time i've had to go out and buy mice in a while, since i usually buy in bulk, so if this is old news to some, then i apologise ;)

Well, the first three local shops i would usually try, all have no adult mice, at all. Then the fourth when i ring to check, tells me they've just had some in.

I go down, get my mice, and put my question to the shop owner, "Why are adult mice getting harder to get hold of ?". He then points to this letter he has on the wall, from his supplier, livefoods.co.uk. (Very big British supplier).

The jist is, that the majority of frozen mice used in the pet trade, are actually animals supplied from Pharmaceutical companies. These companies are now producing less adult mice in order to cut costs/save money, and as a result the supply to the pet trade is decreasing.

All of the above i read myself direct from the letter, so i know its exaggeration free. Although i will add, something else the store keeper told me, and that was now the majority of mice are sourced from abroad. This shop inparticular was getting them now from USA and Belgium :shrugs: and their about 25p more expensive than usual. Don't really care about the extra cost, the mice if i'm honest looked better quality anyway, just a little concerned about the general lack of supplies.

Just thought i'd share that, any opinions?

Tom

[toyah]

The price we pay for mice and rats in general is too cheap because we have the lab surplus to rely on - unfortunately, now that is becoming more scarce because grain prices are rising and so there's less profit in selling at the prices they do. They are only goin to get more expensive!

I bet we will see a few people selling off their collections - there seems to be lots of people in the UK who can barely afford to feed their snakes and it's just not going to get any easier for them. I know I am paying 33% more for rodent feed (straight grains) then I was six months ago ...

[Tula_Montage]

My supplier is the cheapest around (Trust me, I have really shopped around). But even they had to raise prices last week and had not enough adult mice to fill my order and no medium mice. I will have to do another order when they get the numbers up again.

I would love to breed my own food again, but I simply don't have the space for 5-10 mouse cages.

Feeding a large amount of snakes must be stupidly expensive. I only have twenty something at the moment and for 600 various sized rodents I usually pay £120 and that lasts me a good 5 - 6 months.

[TWGarland]

toyah:
The price we pay for mice and rats in general is too cheap because we have the lab surplus to rely on - unfortunately, now that is becoming more scarce because grain prices are rising and so there's less profit in selling at the prices they do. They are only goin to get more expensive!

I bet we will see a few people selling off their collections - there seems to be lots of people in the UK who can barely afford to feed their snakes and it's just not going to get any easier for them. I know I am paying 33% more for rodent feed (straight grains) then I was six months ago ...

Thats really interesting, thanks for that.

To be honest the increase in price doesn't really bother me that much, i still consider only having to pay £1.25 for my pets weekly food supply, to be very, very affordable.

But then i'm in the position of only having one snake to pay for. Its abit worrying to hear that these grain price increases are affecting bigger collecters and breeders (dont want to screw them i want to be one, one day) who have far bigger collections and are being affected in a more direct way.

I mean, heres me sitting here, like, if only i could afford to breed my own mice! They look far healthier anyways. I mean, i have to admit i was thoroughly horrified to hear my snakes food came from Pharmaceutical companies, hell i know they couldn't have had the best lives, given the disgusting urine and faeces covered state they usually come in, but i stupidly presumed they were just bred for the specific purpose, by reptiles pet businesses or something :bang:

Don't want to start see people leaving the hobby/stop breeding because grain prices are increasing the cost of feeding their larger collections, there'd be less availablilty of quality snakes then too :shrugs::uhoh:

[toyah]

I mean, heres me sitting here, like, if only i could afford to breed my own mice! They look far healthier anyways. I mean, i have to admit i was thoroughly horrified to hear my snakes food came from Pharmaceutical companies, hell i know they couldn't have had the best lives, given the disgusting urine and faeces covered state they usually come in, but i stupidly presumed they were just bred for the specific purpose, by reptiles pet businesses or something :bang:

Whereever you get your mice from they shouldn't be covered in urine and faeces - if they are I would change supplier or complain. I buy in some mice, and they are always clean and fresh looking and smelling. You might get the occasional bit of crap in it, but not much at all. Mind you my supplier is not the cheapest (not the most expensive either), just the cleanest and most consistant I could find, specifically bred for reptiles, not lab surplus.

No mice you buy from commercial breeders will have had good lives - they're the rodent equivalent of battery farmed chickens. Eventually I hope to produce enough mice to feed all of my snakes without buying in, but sometimes it just doesn't work like that, you need more of a particular size etc. I moved my mice over Christmas and it took months for them to get back on track as far as breeding goes.

The grain increase prices are insane - the rabbit food I use has gone from about £7 a sack to £11, which is a hefty increase. I keep around fifty cages of mice at the moment, so it's a fair amount of grain. I'd still say that home producing them is cheaper than buying though.

[diamondlil]

I must be lucky, no problems with buying adult mice from my usual supplier and no increase in price at the moment. I've been self-sufficient in 'growing my own' pinks-hoppers for about a year now, and am going to try to grow on to adult size. If it gets too much work I'll hopefully still be able to get supplies of adults. (Mine would cost me 85p each, but I get a 20% discount on my orders)

[Lexcorn]

This lack of frozen mice / rats etc. has occured around this time of the year for a few years now.

Yes, it has been exacerbated by the reduction of the Pharmaceutical bred mice, however, it is becoming a constant from my point of view.

I agree with Toyah on this issue of accepting discusting urine & faeces covered feeder mice for your snakes. Definately return them to your supplier & complain.

Yup, I have received such items in previous years & returned forthwith.

The best advice that I can offer is to breed your own supply. It's quite a bit of work looking after the 'feeders', they demand more time than the snakes. However, it ensures a quality food which is easily compared to those that are, on occasion, offered by wholesale businesses.

Quality animals require/deserve quality food.

Lex

[Plissken]

I feel rather limited for mouse suppliers around here. There are 2 shops within close range; one has, IMO, quite poor quality mice so I use the other. The mice are good quality but they are pretty expensive and the range of sizes seems to be limited. For example the largest mice they sell are still fairly small and although I would like something larger, the next size up (going in to rats) is the other extreme and is way too big.

Buying online simply wouldn't be cost effective either, with 3 snakes to feed.

Maybe it's just my area, but I've always found buying mice and rats a bit of a hassle, to be honest.

[Susielea]

So far, touch wood, I've been able to get all sizes I need, but the medium/large at my local supplier has been in shorter supply and the prices have gone up a bit. My local guy gives me a heads up if they are expecting to run short, so I then buy a bulk load to tide me over.

Have been thinking of buying online, but I'm not sure where would be the best place, quality and price wise, so if anyone has any suggestions I'd appreciate them :)

[bitsy]

The shortage has just caught up with me on the South Coast. My local shop had to drive to Holland and collect their current supplies from a private breeder - they can't source from a commercial supplier anywhere in Europe. And even more scarily, they don't know when they'll be getting any more.

Their view is that a couple of factors have come together:

1) The UK labs that used to breed rodents are now engaged in GM trials. They're prohibited from raising food animals (for anything, not just human consumption) in the same facility as GM testing, so they've given up on rodent breeding as the GM testing is more profitable.

2) There has been a virus in the commercial stock in the States, meaning that all bulk European rodent suppliers are shipping stock over there (presumably because they can charge a premium price).

As a result of the above, there are now insufficient supplies in Europe, to service European customers.

Don't know whether this is all accurate, but it's the first time I can remember stocks of adult mice drying up. Pinkies usually disappear over the winter, but I don't think the current situation has ever happened before.

[torsten]

yep my local pet shops have few frozen stock and they are expensive and about half the size they used to be!!!

i have recently invested in a load of cages and some mice which are now starting to produce feed for me. it is amazing the difference in growth rates now my snakes are being fed fresh nutritious mice!!

i am feeding mine 'sow rolls' which are designed for pregnant pigs but are also perfect for the mice. a 25kg sack cost me just 0ver £7.

[cornmorphs]

i know its an old thread, but a really interesting read.
i have started breeding afew of my own rats and mice recently.
the plan is to be self suficient for the rats to feed royals within a few months, and the mice will just be a little back up/top up for my corns. i wont be able to maintain myself, no chance as i have too many and as people have said, doing the mice is hard work and does takes a lot lot longer than the actual snakes to look after.

[torsten]

Agreed, breeding mice and rats takes far longer than looking after the snakes, i have ~35 snakes but am also producing mice and rats to sell to the pet shops around here and i still have excess mice and rats being produced so i have a fair number of breeding mice and rats and i reckon it takes at least 2/3 times as long to deal with the rodents as it does to deal with the snakes.

If anyone local wants mice ;) LOL My freezer is FULL, this is another advantage of breeding your own, you can chose what size you need most of and cull a appropiate amount at the size you need and can choose exactly what siz rodent each snake needs and then they can have that. Also my adult mice (not ex breeders) usually weigh around 40g and ex breeder mice can weigh upto 50g!

I am completely self sufficient on rodents and am in fact producing more than i need!

My 25kg sacks of pig food from Mole Valley Farmers cost £6.50 ish and is great. Prices haven't really changed at all.

[bitsy]

My local reptile shop is still driving a van over to Holland and buying their frozen rodents from a private breeder. They still can't find a commercial supplier in the UK.

Living in a 2-bed flat, I don't have the room (or the inclination) to raise enough adult mice for my hungry snake mouths.

[cornmorphs]

torsten, do those guys deliver the sacks of food? if so whats the cost?, or do they have a website?
i used to pay 6 odd quid for 15k hamster food, i am now paying 12 quid just 3 years since i last did it.
i would love to be fully sufficient, i may sit down and try and work out roughly how many mice i would need to keep.
i dont have a problem with rotation etc, i did keep about 1000 mice until our 2nd baby was born, but that then got too much..
saying that, we now have 3 and weify is 7 weeks gravid lol

[diamondlil]

Nige, I get my sacks of sow pellets from a feed merchants, the protein and mineral contents are pretty close to lab blocks, and they're £5 a sack (@ 6 months worth of feed for my mouse-farm!)

[torsten]

Hi J9,
What weight sacks are those?

I use Sacks of Sow Rolls from http://www.molevalleyfarmers.com, i don't know if they deliver because we collect ours.

[torsten]

I can't find the food on their site but if you email or phone them then they should be able to sort you out.

There are two types of Pig food: sow rolls or sow pellets.
the sow rolls are bigger and are better if you are using an commercial breeding rack for your rodents with food hoppers built in as the smaller sow pellets fall through the bars much more easily.

[cornmorphs]

Nige, I get my sacks of sow pellets from a feed merchants, the protein and mineral contents are pretty close to lab blocks, and they're £5 a sack (@ 6 months worth of feed for my mouse-farm!)
hi janine, is that 25K? how many mice do you use then, or feed sorry?
i think this is what i need to do in the long run if i want to save a little money.
I can't find the food on their site but if you email or phone them then they should be able to sort you out.

There are two types of Pig food: sow rolls or sow pellets.
the sow rolls are bigger and are better if you are using an commercial breeding rack for your rodents with food hoppers built in as the smaller sow pellets fall through the bars much more easily.

i really want the pro caging, i just cant afford it.. was hoping the corns would sell a little better soi could get some.. maybe soon.

[torsten]

A 25kg sack lasts me about 3wks.... maybe a bit longer. it is dependent on the number and size of the rodents being grown on.

For instance i had around 75 baby rats last weekend, i am now down to ~50... Sometimes i have none at all so there is a lot of variation.

[cornmorphs]

i have only recently started.
i started with 3.3 mice in november, these were about 5/6 weeks old.
i have taken about 100 mice so far (food wise), i guess i now have about 10.30/35, plus 2 growing on boxes with one load of males and one load of females.
then one lot of rats, pair, they produced 2 which died, 5 of which i have kept 1.1, culled 1.0 and sold 1.1, of the next litter of 13 , 11 lived. i have culled 3 males at about 6 weeks, the recent litter she had about 10 but there are only 3 alive as i think the female may have been tired from not having a break..
so, my long term plan is to not buy in rats for the royals... see where we get with that lol.

[diamondlil]

My mouse farm is really small-scale. I'm actually down to 1 breeder pair! I culled too many for last year's hatchlings and haven't been able to get any new breeders except for this new pair.
I found the satins and colourful mice, while fun, just didn't produce big enough litters, so I'm back to PEWs and having to build up again from scratch. I'm aiming to build up to 4 sets of trios or 1 male to 4 females, which is really as many as I could realistically deal with.
(I'm wildly jealous of T's set-up but I know I haven't the space or time to do justice to that sort of mouse-farm!)

[cornmorphs]

I may get in a little bit of new blood, dont want them to get all inbred and that eh.
might end up culling all the males and getting in say 10-12 fresh blood.,

[diamondlil]

I'd love to just buy new breeders Nige, but I've had an order in for 2 months at my local shop with no luck!

[cornmorphs]

whats that for hun?, live or frozen?
i have needed mice for a week,but i cant get to where i need to go, its 280 mile round trip.. the roads have been too dangerous.

[diamondlil]

New breeding stock! The satins just aged and stopped breeding too fast, so I managed to get 1 pair of PEWs to start again. They're raising their 3rd litter now so I should (hopefully) get in production for keepers and stocking up on pinkies for this year's corn hatchlings.
Can't get live mice for love nor money this winter!

[cornmorphs]

i have some amazing coloured mice.. some really unusual ones, i feel quite bad giving them to snakes lol..
i bet some of them are half special rare ones aswell.i went out and bought a few thousand large and small mice (frozen), so for now i will concentrate on producing fluffs and pinks for the coming seasons babies.
i didnt realise, i only have about enough fluffs for one feed, so i will en up buying some at some point. i have a lot of 08 corns on 2 fluffs, they are not ready to go onto a small mouse just yet.
ironically, i have a large number of pinks, but only use a few each week now, maybe 20 odd.

[torsten]

Ah, the joys of trying to keep an appropriate number of each size rodent in your freezer!!!

I completely ran out of adult mice yesterday so i will have to go through and cull some of my spare ex-breeder boxes before next weekend.

[diamondlil]

I've got 4 weaned and 5 about to be weaned that I didn't get the chance to sex at the easy stage! Because I didn't check out the nipple situation when they were peach fluffs, I've now got the delightful task of trying to see who's what on the mad things while they do their best to levitate out of my hands.
I read a tip on putting them in a cricket box to wait 'til the boys relax their family jewels. I can now say with confidence that I have 9 unsexed mice.

[cornmorphs]

Ah, the joys of trying to keep an appropriate number of each size rodent in your freezer!!!

I completely ran out of adult mice yesterday so i will have to go through and cull some of my spare ex-breeder boxes before next weekend.

i dont think i could ever produce enough mice to provide for all the snakes i have, but i do try to get the right sizes..
i know i have about enough sub adult males to cull for one full meal.. so thats better than nothing at the moment for me.

[ivenner]

Just my 2pence worth here, but in Shropshire we much be lucky. We only have the one snake (at present) so I don't have to bulk buy, but my local reptile shop seems to have plenty of mice in, in various sizes.

Also whilst in the shop we buy our cat and dog food from, I just happened to look in the freezer and they had 'blocks' of adults, and fuzzies and pinkies in there as well. It was quite a shock as there is no mention of reptiles in the shop anywhere else.

Could this be a geographical phenomenon?

Cheers

Ian.

[cornmorphs]

Reptiles in the UK now are more popular than furry animals, so you will find most pet shops will now sell mice.

[cornmorphs]

well, after now breeding my own rats and mice for a while again (8/9 months mice and 6 months rats), I have a few conclusions:-
My own rodents are better than anything I have ever bought.
They are obviously fresher.
The royals I have been giving fresh killed, that way they get all the goodness, and if they dont eat I can use the rat again, so double bonus.
I am managing to provide my own royals quite easily now on the rats.
mice wise, not a chance I will be self sufficient, but i'm trying, i've certainly eased the flow of buying mice. The quality is of course miles better, although i dont feed fresh killed as corns are easier to sell on defrost.
I'll deffo be carrying on with it, while I can manage it.. not sure how long that will be, 10 weeks to go and i'll be a dad for the 4th time lol

[diamondlil]

I should be self-sufficient in pinkies for this year's corn hatchlings, but no chance in breeding and growing on enough adult mice Nige, I just haven't enough room and time to grow them on in large enough quantities. The price of frozen adults is holding steady at £45 per 100 from my current supplier so far, but if it goes up much more I'll have to think again about expanding the mouse farm.

[cornmorphs]

when needed, i use A and N.. but its a long way to go, lmost 300 mile round trip for mice.
pinkie wise, i am producing a stupid amount, but i am using them pretty fast too.. over 100 every 5 days at the mo with more yet to hatch or shed and start feeding

[diamondlil]

Talk about coincidence, as I'm reading your post I can hear a new batch of pinks squeaking! I could do with better producing lines like lab mice, my PEWS are averaging 10 a litter which isn't as good as the ones I had before I experimented with coloured and satins. Should have stuck with the original lines at 15-20 a litter, but you live and learn.

[cornmorphs]

Talk about coincidence, as I'm reading your post I can hear a new batch of pinks squeaking! I could do with better producing lines like lab mice, my PEWS are averaging 10 a litter which isn't as good as the ones I had before I experimented with coloured and satins. Should have stuck with the original lines at 15-20 a litter, but you live and learn.

i rememeber by lab mice back in the day, i had a lot of massive litters, often over 20.
i dont know what i average now, at the moment i have 1.10 and take out pinks daily, although i have left some recently in most boxes as i am doing a mass overhaul fresh start. i have a lot over 5 months or so, maybe 6 and i dont want an old breeding colony. i probably have enough to do about half my lot now.

[diamondlil]

I've got 3 lots of 1.3, and thinking about another 1.3 or perhaps to go to 1.4 for new breeders. of course having the mouse farm in my bedroom because of the cats isn't brilliant, but at least I'm forced to keep 'em cleaned out!

[cornmorphs]

luckily i have a garage, i couldnt keep them in my house.
i only have those ones as 1.10 purely to produce high numbers of pinkies, most are going to be 1.3 or 4 after, although i cant see a point where i will never need pinkies

[Susielea]

I should be self-sufficient in pinkies for this year's corn hatchlings, but no chance in breeding and growing on enough adult mice Nige, I just haven't enough room and time to grow them on in large enough quantities. The price of frozen adults is holding steady at £45 per 100 from my current supplier so far, but if it goes up much more I'll have to think again about expanding the mouse farm.

I was just wondering who your current supplier is and do they deliver? That's pretty good pricing compared to the prices I'm paying at the moment, for large adult mice :)

[diamondlil]

I was just wondering who your current supplier is and do they deliver? That's pretty good pricing compared to the prices I'm paying at the moment, for large adult mice :)
Ah, it's special 'mates rates' from the shop I sell my hatchlings to and helped with their set ups. I'm not sure if it's a permanent arrangement but I'm hoping it is!

[Susielea]

Ah, it's special 'mates rates' from the shop I sell my hatchlings to and helped with their set ups. I'm not sure if it's a permanent arrangement but I'm hoping it is!

The reason I asked is because I had to give up breeding my own feeders, as we found out that was what was causing my asthma, no mice or ASF's and I'm off the steroid pumps now :)

And I get "mates rates" too, but I'm still paying more than you are, so I hope it continues for you :)