After Reading Tceas's thoughts i decided to

seperate my 2 corns again 1 will have a HUDGE i think 6 foot by 4 high by 4 wide(not exact) and the other will have a 40 gallon with all hides ect ect ike my other 5... I just spent the day reading Cannibalism posts and 2 snakes in 21 cage arguments and i read some Real! good ones so decided to seperate these two to but one question how come when tehre together at night they climb and slitehr around and everything when i spend hours watching bvut when tehre alone they ENVER leave there hide even with lights on or off Or anything(during the night) n never see either of theese 2 guys 2 males 1+ years old same clutch same size anery and amel come out when they arent together is this weird to anyone>?????

Well done on taking some good advice! The reason your snakes are staying put when separated is probably because of a number of reasons. One, they are getting used to new enclosure. Another could be that they were stressed out being so close to each other when together so were always on the move trying to get some 'space' so now they have it they are happy to stay put.

but neither Move during the day when there together they just climb and everything at night... and it cant be because there adjusting last time thwey were seperated almost 2 months and i NEVER see them come out not even to drink! and i watch for atleast 1 hour per night!

I have a similar situation with my okeetee. She was sharing with another viv-mate until a few months ago when I separated her as she's now reaching adult-hood. She was always a cheeky, nosey madam coming out every time someone walked by and watching everything that goes on. Now she's on her own she just stays in her hide all day and evening. She doesn't seem nearly as confident as she did when she was sharing.

Her viv-mate is still raring to go, however.

As all corns have their own personality traits, I don't think we can judge them all to have the same preferences.

yeas both mine did the same thats why i decided to put them together ina HUDGE tank in teh first place when there together they come looking everytime i walk in my room and every time i open the lid they come outa hiding now when there seperated they sit there and when i go to pick em up they dont scamper away they just sit tehre It makes me feel kinda sad and yes you guys will say its better for the snakes but if they didnt like a cage mate why the hell would they act so lonly>?

It's a subject that can get hightly emotive as people seem to feel strongly both ways.

I'm completely torn. I spend an awful lot of time with each one of my corns and know each one's preferences for handling, feeding methods, temperment and personality traits and not one of them likes the same thing.

The Okeetee I was referring to is/was a really sociable personality and came out at the first sign of any movement in the room and adores roaming around me. My Green spot, however, is quite happy to spend his time in his favourite corner and just be left alone.

My male Ghost and female Amel live separate lives but when I put them together twice a year they always seem completely comfortable together and,even though they've the choice of hides to go to, will spend all their time together. I tend to leave them together until she's too gravid and when I remove her, he seems to genuinely miss her.

We shouldn't put our own emotions onto these animals but at times I do feel that we simplify their feelings too much.

Just a bit of yak from me here..

I know lots of people think that animals have no feelings and that we tend to make them out to have them.

How do we know they don't? Just because they can't tell us anything or communicate?

Its been shown that brain size has nothing to do with emotions.

My cats have emotions. Its hilarious sometimes. Yet every day, I get told that animals don't have emotions.

My snakes are the same way when I separate them. When they are together, they both curl up in the same hide, even if I put double the exact same hide in the cage. They both still eat, cruise, etc when together as well-so the stress point just isn't visible to me.

Maybe others have different experiences. I do keep my babies apart just to be safe. I also don't keep more than 3 corns to a large cage for cleanliness reasons.

-cat

mabey just the breeders have problems with stress and everything because the males smell the females or otehr males present but with me i have ALL males and havent had a problemn for over a year and a half i i do think my snakes have emotions and i think those to like to be together the other 5 are happy by thereselvess mabey its just they way they like 2 be mabey i got to "gay" corns lol that like to be together i dont know but wat i do know is it looks and seems like thewy enjoy the company now someone will post here saying all the bad thing of having them together or whatever but i dont care i will do what i think my snakes like!!!

Just my honest opinion:cheers:

my personal circumstances means that money just isn't an issue and it really bugs me when people intimate that I may keep my corns together on a cost/space saving mission.

At the end of the day, we can only do what we completely believe to be best for each individual snake as long as we take the time to get to know them.................. just as I would any other animal.

"At the end of the day, we can only do what we completely believe to be best for each individual snake as long as we take the time to get to know them.................. just as I would any other animal."

If you can give me ONE factual (read close, FACTUAL, not "they are best friends") reason that benefits the snakes to house together, then I will believe the whole "everyone do what they think is best" cheese line. But until then, there is not ONE benefical reason that makes the snakes life better or benefits them in any way when you house together. Period.

bmm

" now someone will post here saying all the bad thing of having them together or whatever but i dont care i will do what i think my snakes like!!! "

Wow you can talk to your snakes?

Let me guess, they sit together all the time so they must love each other.

You know what guys, ignore my posts. Don't even respond. I can't be bothered explaining anthropomorphizing over again, nor can I bear to point out FACTS that most people who house together seem to ignore. So seriously. Just disregard it. you will anyways.

bmm

I may be wrong but I sense an eliment of aggression and sarcasm in your posts there, bmm. Do you really feel that there is place for that in a discussion such as this where people should not feel intimidated but free to express their views and findings and listen to that of others in order to learn?

These posts were placed on here by people who are genuinely concerned about the well-being of the snakes for which they care.

You don't need to explain anthropomorphizing. I'd already referred to that in lay-mans terms in an earlier post.

Nobody had ever suggested that they were able to "talk" to their snakes or that they were "in love" with each other. It has never even been intimated in this thread that they form any kind of bond with a particular snake.
Snakes are independent creatures with highly formed survival instincts which enable them to fend for themselves without having to rely on another. However, just because snakes in the wild do not pair up or form packs in order to survive does not mean that they go through life never meeting or "communicating" with another of their kind. Nor does it mean that they would prefer to live their lives in solitary confinement.

The FACT remains that, as humans, we are severly limited in being able to judge the TRUE mental state of any other species.

We try to offer them environments suitable to their health requirements and mimic their natural habitat as best we can with the technology on offer to today's market but we cannot possibly fulfill all the criteria given to that of a wild specimen. How then, can we possibly say that it is FACT that they do not like each other's company?

May I say again, that this is a discussion forum open to those who genuinely care about corn snakes. A forum open for those who have nowhere else to go to get information and air their personal studies and findings. Aggressive posts do nothing but intimidate and bully and offer no facility for further learning. This is an emotive subject as I said earlier. As with all emotive subjects, it is such because we are emotive creatures ourselves with a genuine desire to do what we feel best and not be critised because of this. Please, let us discuss this and all matters in a supportive manner and stop making assumptions that other's opinions are "disregarded". It is because of advice being followed that this thread was posted in the first place. Subsequent behavioural changes have since been a cause for concern. Others have had similar findings and aired their views. Period.

BMM!

not once did i say i can talk to snakes nore do i want to cut corners because i cannot afford it i CAN i have a tank i can put it iin but i feel theese particular TWO snakes like being together like i said the other 5 seem to LVOE being along but theese to for some reason Seem to enjoy eachothers company! its not like your a corn exspert nor am i ive read the cornsnake manual and many Good Arguments on here thats why ALL my corns are seperate but theese two because they SEEM to like to be together i cant be 100% that they like or hate eachother thats why There together if i see things that make me think otherwise there seperated please stop with the sarcasm and anger!:angry01:

Cornfan and Ryan,

It is worth mentioning that the subject of "collective or individual housing" is a continually reoccurring thread topic. Truth be told, it comes up approximately every 4-6 weeks. Those of us that have been around the forums for a while see the same good vs. bad, correct vs. incorrect, "truth" vs. rumor arguments posted over and over again.

One theme always seems to creep back in: "No matter what experienced keepers say, they are wrong. I've had my snakes for a couple of weeks and everything is fine, so I'm going to do what I want."

In all fairness to bmm:

There are numerous fact-based downsides associated with keeping multiple snakes in one enclosure. It's frustrating to see new members repeatedly dismiss the risks associated with this questionable practice, only to return later and ask, "Why isn't my snake eating?" or "One of my snakes is sick, are the other 4 cage mates safe?"

Question for Ryan:

What if you are mistaken? Are you willing to bet the lives of one or both of your snakes on your "feeling"?

In your opinion, bmm isn't an expert. I'd ask you to reconsider. Compare her years of herp knowledge with your limited knowledge. Part of what you will learn (sooner or later) in this hobby is that experience goes a long way. Listening to those that have already learned by doing. I promise that it will save you a mess of greif somewhere down the road.


DID MY FATHER JUST SAY THAT???? I'M GETTING OLD!

Cav its not realy limited knolege ive had snakes for 11 years... garters for the first 2 then boas and corns for almost 5 years.... and ive read almost everything i can find what i meant Is Bmm may not ALWAYS be right and What if these to snakes DO prefer to be together i ALWAYS watch them and check on them ect ect If there is ever regurge ill seperate emidiatly,,, or anything but fornow ill give this one last chance

You are right, Cav, this subject does come up time and again for many different reasons. Sometimes the reasons are the wrong ones for personal "aesthetic" or financial reasons. However, other times it crops up for reasons as have been posted here. The personal study of an individual snake's behavioural pattern.

An assumption that a forum member is inexperienced merely due to recent membership to this particular forum is a little naive. My personal studies and "feelings" are borne from a life time growing up with a herpetologist for a father and my own personal care for and breeding of snakes for the past 15 years both here in the UK and in South Africa where I had the opportunity to study them in their natural habitat.

Refusal of food, sickness and stress occur in reptile collections across the world whether the snakes be kept individually or in groups and the advice of quarantine in those instances is always advised.

Nobody on this thread is advocating multiple housing for every corn. The question still remains, however, can this be the cause of noticable behavioural changes to an individual corn snake that may be detrimental to its' wellbeing? I personally believe that this question is founded on the best of intentions and a valid point to raise and discuss.

Cornfan

I apologize if I gave the impression that you (or any new member) were inexperienced based upon your registration date; that wasn't my intent. I was making a generalization that IMO, applies to the majority of posters on the repetitive housing threads.

However, other times it crops up for reasons as have been posted here. The personal study of an individual snake's behavioral pattern.

Click to expand...

This is what causes me the rub. Time and time again, the "behavioral observer" is a new owner with minimal experience. After watching their snakes for a few weeks, they feel justified in pronouncing, "All is well!"

But what happens when those two hatchlings reach breeding age? Just because they are "comfortable with each other" now doesn't mean problems can't manifest themselves unexpectedly. The potential will always exist for unintended breeding, territorial disputes between adult males, competition for food stores, and endless other ill-intended disasters.

Thank you, Cav, for your apology. Generalisations can be quite misleading. Generalisations for corns can also be misleading and it is not the observations of a new reptile owner that are being discussed here.

We'll agree to disagree.

ohh yeh about the sarcastic remarck about
"Wow you can talk to your snakes? " well I know EVERY ONE who actuly takes the time to know there pets ( i mean peaple to who care for the snake indavialy not not just cuz the a rare color). I feel I know how my dog feels, my grandma feels she understands her cats, I feel I understand my snakes TOO. those who feel the same as me speek up please, so I dont feel like a idiot for sticking my head on the choping block.

unch:

I hope my post dont make me too many enemys but I dont usaly care what peaple think about me
:fullauto: :madeuce: