large bulge

[dcrocker]

He ate two mice about a week ago with no problem and was left alone for the most part. Last night, my son noticed this bulge. It's about 6-7" from his head and is about the size of one of the mice he eats. It seems to high up to be a food item but I don't know exactly where the stomach starts. Also, in case it matters, he's just started a shedding cycle (eyes starting to cloud over today).
Pictures attached.

Any suggestions? If I need to take him to a vet, any suggestions for a good one in San Jose CA or surrounding towns?

[Cattsy]

Whoa.... That's a big lump!! I've neer seen anything like that :s

Hopefully the more experienced members can shed some light on things.

T

[dcrocker]

Whoa.... That's a big lump!! I've neer seen anything like that :s

Hopefully the more experienced members can shed some light on things.

T

Yeah, it's pretty big. As I said, it looks like a full-sized mouse to me. One other thing I should mention, he isn't acting sick. He seems strong and is acting somewhat normal (which mostly means he's curled up in his hide).

[ceduke]

If you do decide to go to a vet(Or just want some contact info on hand in case of emergency), Dr. Kurt Nakamura at Adobe Animal Hospital is FANTASTIC. I know it's 1/2 hour from San Jose, but when I lived in SJ I always took my herps to Dr. Nakamura. He's VERY knowledgeable and loves exotics. Also, I interned at Adobe for several months so I can vouch for him being just as awesome behind the scenes. The phone number for Adobe is (650) 948-9661.

Closer than Los Altos, Wildwood sees a ton of exotics. Two of my friends worked there (One I believe still does) and have nothing but good things to say. They do a lot of work with reptiles and birds in particular. Their number is (408) 265-8811.

[dcrocker]

If you do decide to go to a vet(Or just want some contact info on hand in case of emergency), Dr. Kurt Nakamura at Adobe Animal Hospital is FANTASTIC. I know it's 1/2 hour from San Jose, but when I lived in SJ I always took my herps to Dr. Nakamura. He's VERY knowledgeable and loves exotics. Also, I interned at Adobe for several months so I can vouch for him being just as awesome behind the scenes. The phone number for Adobe is (650) 948-9661.

Closer than Los Altos, Wildwood sees a ton of exotics. Two of my friends worked there (One I believe still does) and have nothing but good things to say. They do a lot of work with reptiles and birds in particular. Their number is (408) 265-8811.

Thanks for the info. As it turns out, the local animal hospital had someone who treats reptiles. We went there this morning. The vet thinks the bulge is one of the mice he ate last week. Why it's not down in his stomach is a mystery. We had an x-ray taken and the Dr. shot some lube down there to try to help things move along. We're supposed to monitor things for the next couple of days.
I'm wondering if, due to the shedding, his skin tightened up and is preventing the mouse from moving. My son fed him and says that both mice ended up in the stomach. So, it looks like one moved back up.

[sinisterserpents1]

WOW what a bulge! That is very odd. Please keep us updated and good luck!!!

[kadaysa]

Oh my goodness. I think you definitely did the right thing by going in. Please keep us posted and thank you for shaing this thus far. Good luck, I hope everything "moves along smoothly" :) Seriously I do hope everything turns out alright

[Bartholomew]

Wow, that is a big bulge. Its a good thing you took the snake to a vet. Hope everything goes well. Keep us updated :) .

[raynefyre]

Holy cannoli! That's one big lump. O_O

I think I remember hearing that a snake's stomach starts at about 1/3 to 1/2 the way down its body. If it is coming up could it possibly be a future regurge? I'm sorry I have no experience on the subject :( I hope he gets better for you, he's a very beautiful boy! Please keep us posted.

Good Luck!

[Susan]

Thanks for the info. As it turns out, the local animal hospital had someone who treats reptiles. We went there this morning. The vet thinks the bulge is one of the mice he ate last week. Why it's not down in his stomach is a mystery. We had an x-ray taken and the Dr. shot some lube down there to try to help things move along. We're supposed to monitor things for the next couple of days.
I'm wondering if, due to the shedding, his skin tightened up and is preventing the mouse from moving. My son fed him and says that both mice ended up in the stomach. So, it looks like one moved back up.

An x-ray was done and the vet "thinks" it is the second mouse? If it was the mouse, it would be a definite answer, no guesswork with an x-ray unless all the mouse's bones have been fully digested. I've not encountered such a problem as your snake has. Hopefully it really is the second mouse and it moves along in either direction.

I will mention that if the lump IS the second mouse, and you are feeding your snake 2 mice of that size, that is a bit too much for your snake's stomach to handle properly. An adult corn snake will do just fine being fed one prey item that is 1 1/2 times the snake's width. More than that and you can end up with issues such as regurges and possible blockages.

[marshaelaine]

wow - sorry this happening. hope everything turns out okay,
Marsha

[dcrocker]

Not much change. His eyes have cleared so it looks like he'll shed in a day or two. The lump is the same size as before and hasn't moved. The vet had a radiologist double-check the x-rays and he confirmed that it's a mouse. I saw the x-rays myself and couldn't see any features that would indicate it's a mouse (e.g. bones) but it was in his stomach for around a week so it's at least partially digested.
My dilemma now is that the vet wants to shoot some more lube down there and try to get things moving. I'm concerned that this might be too invasive and do more harm than good. If someone could explain why this has happened, it might help me to decide if things should be left alone or messed with.

[ShenziSixaxis]

With my little normal, if I feed her when she's going into shed, she won't digest nearly as fast as she does. I would just leave the mouse alone; the corn will digest it in the way it needs to. Lubing it up and making it go further into the corn's stomach when it's not digested enough will probably cause problems, I think.

[ceduke]

I wonder at what point the mouse will start to rot and cause further problems? That would be my concern at this point. My thought would be give him a day or two to shed and see if that gets things moving.

[PJ@PJCReptiles]

If that is a mouse, it should be very rotten by now, I would think. Maybe with shedding the snake will regurge it up. Could it possibly be a tumor? If you didnt see any bones on the xray, just how did the radiologist see them?
Just wondering. I would be freaked out if that was my snake. I know what you mean about more "lube" down its throat. Does it feel solid?

Maybe PM Kathy Love and see if she might have any ideas or Rich Z. I am sure they both would check out this thread if you pmed them with the link and the situation.

Good luck and keep us posted.
PJ

[dcrocker]

If that is a mouse, it should be very rotten by now, I would think. Maybe with shedding the snake will regurge it up. Could it possibly be a tumor? If you didnt see any bones on the xray, just how did the radiologist see them?
Just wondering. I would be freaked out if that was my snake. I know what you mean about more "lube" down its throat. Does it feel solid?

Maybe PM Kathy Love and see if she might have any ideas or Rich Z. I am sure they both would check out this thread if you pmed them with the link and the situation.

Good luck and keep us posted.
PJ

I think they're just guessing as to what it is. It's soft and squishy. i doubt it's a tumor as it appeared overnight. I'm almost sure it's a mouse that either didn't make it to the stomach or came back up.
I PMed Kathy to see if she has any suggestions.

[kathylove]

Sure seems to be way too high up to be digested. Sounds like the vets weren't very sure about what it was and where it was. Maybe ask if they could have a really experienced HERP vet look at the x ray and tell you if it is really in the stomach, or if not, where is it, and what is happening.

I am no vet or even a biologist. But it just doesn't look right. I would want to know if they saw the actual mouse skeleton. I probably would have been gently palpating it to see if I could feel any outline of a mouse, or if it is soft like a tumor or cyst, or if it might be air or fluid. But the vet should already know the answers to those questions. If you do not think he was experienced enough, ask him to consult a herp vet.

Wish I could help. It looks really strange, and not at all good.

Good luck!

[Nanci]

It's about the level of the heart, it looks like to me. Hopefully he doesn't have an injury.

[Nanci]

It would be nice if they could scope him.

[wstphal]

It would be nice if they could scope him.

Unfortunately, I doubt that would work. The neonatal scopes wouldn't be long enough, and the larger ones would have too big a diameter. Maybe one of the scope manufacturers needs to make snake scopes!

[kathylove]

It's about the level of the heart, it looks like to me.

I was thinking about that, too. But surely even a non herp vet would see that on an x ray? I just don't know enough about it to comment. But it SEEMS like a heart related problem would look way different than a partially digested mouse. Maybe Susan has seen enough x rays to comment on the reading of them by non herp vets.

[Asbit]

Wow, I can not offer any help but I can offer my prayers for you snake. It certainly looks very alarming and I would be very concerned. If I were you I would get a second opinion like from the vet that was already mentioned earlier in this thread, Dr. Nakamura was it?

[Susan]

What doesn't fit is the size of the lump, the time frame and no mouse bones seen on the x-ray. If that large of a lump is the mouse, it hasn't been digested and bones would show in the x-ray. Also, as PJ said, it would be very rotten by now and the snake would be very sick and should have regurged it if possible. If I'm wrong and it really is the mouse and it has been digested but hasn't moved out of the stomach to be absorbed, then there has to be a blockage preventing it from moving along the digestive tract. Your vet should know this and "more lube" is not going to help. If he's going to give the snake anything, it should be barium to actually verify there is a blockage.

Barium is a harmless material that is given orally and shows up like a lit Christmas tree at midnight on an x-ray. X-rays are taken throughout the day and maybe even into the next day to track the movement of the barium along the digestive tract. If it hits a point and stops, or outlines a foreign object, then you know exactly what you are dealing with.

I am more concerned that the lump is soft and squishy. That does not suggest to me that it's a mass or a mouse. It might be an abscess, a fluid-filled cyst or just swollen/inflamed tissue. If it really is the stomach (hard to tell exactly where along the snake it is by your photos), there is something else that needs to be ruled out. You haven't mentioned any history of regurges, but there doesn't have to be any for it to be crypto. My recommendation...take your snake and the x-ray to another herp vet.

[kathylove]

Those were things I was thinking, but haven't had enough experiences with x rays to say for sure.

I wasn't thinking of crypto because from everything I read, it sounds like it is a stomach wall thickening that is usually observed, and this seems too high. But I suspected a vet SHOULD be able to tell more from that x ray than the vets have told her. I think your recommendation for another vet (a good herp vet) evaluation is what I would do if it was my snake.

[Yvette]

How is the snake doing? That lump looks scary.

[wasuslitherin]

I have a caramel stipre with close to the same problem. The lump is not as big as yours tho. Its way far up to be poop or food. But it just come on over night. I don't now what to do. I hope everything works out, for mine and yours.

[wasuslitherin]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100955 Here is the link....

[Buzzard]

Had a female get a large lump this year, but it was because her eggs pushed everything back. She had some very large eggs. But this looks very nasty. Hope evrything turns out okay...

[dcrocker]

Thanks to all for the concern and suggestions.
There hasn't been much change. He shed a couple of days ago. He's acting normal and healthy. I wanted to try to get some food in him and see if this would get things moving, so I fed him two fuzzies. He ate them right up and didn't seem to have any problem. This makes me even more skeptical that the bulge is an undigested mouse. I did notice there's another smaller bulge down where his stomach is. I assume this is, in fact, a mouse, but I obviously have no way of knowing. I did see him drinking from his bowl the other day so I know he's at least getting water when he needs it.

One thing did occur to me...
I don't think he's pooped since his last major feeding about 2 weeks ago. So, we gave him a soak for about 15 minutes to see if that would help. So far, nothing. I don't know if the bulge is related to the possible constipation but I thought it was worth a try. Is there a better treatment for constipation than soaking?

[danielle]

I would hold off on any more food and get him to a herp vet. That first bulge is not a mouse for sure and if he has a blockage of some sort food will only complicate things. Most cysts would have hardened by now, but I have no clue what else would cause such a mass. Good luck with him:)

[Caryl]

I have no idea what that bulge could be, dcrocker, and I don't have anything more helpful than prayers. I hope all turns out well for you and your snake. I'd definitely take him and his x-rays to see an experienced herp vet ASAP.

[starsevol]

That looks alot like what happened to my 11 year old girl Keeper. After numerous vet visits, and barium tests the vet still could not figure out what was wrong. She stopped eating and I had to have her euthanized....

It sounds like you are doing everything right though. Please keep us updated.

[dcrocker]

Well, we took him to see Dr. Nakamura (great guy, by the way...very knowledgeable and helpful). The diagnosis is that it's likely a tumor. He looked at the x-rays I had from the other dr. and also looked at the bulge with ultrasound. He offered to do a biopsy and said that surgery and chemo would be options if it turned out to be cancerous. But, given that the snake is 8 years old, we decided further tests and/or treatment weren't justified.
The Dr. said he wasn't in pain and as long as he could eat, he'd still have a good quality of life. We'll feed him fuzzies on a more frequent schedule and see how things go. The Dr. did say that given how quickly the tumor appeared, he probably won't last long.
I wanted to thank everyone for their support.

[Asbit]

I am sorry to hear that it was not very good news! I wish you and your snake the best for his remaining days. (((HUGS)))

[Caryl]

I'm sorry to hear that prognosis. When it's one of mine, I'd rather know what's going on than continue wondering. It sounds like you're doing exactly the right thing for his remaining time.

[marshaelaine]

I am sorry that you did not have better news, but hope that he will continue on without many troubles,
Marsha

[El Jefe]

Well, we took him to see Dr. Nakamura (great guy, by the way...very knowledgeable and helpful). The diagnosis is that it's likely a tumor. He looked at the x-rays I had from the other dr. and also looked at the bulge with ultrasound. He offered to do a biopsy and said that surgery and chemo would be options if it turned out to be cancerous. But, given that the snake is 8 years old, we decided further tests and/or treatment weren't justified.
The Dr. said he wasn't in pain and as long as he could eat, he'd still have a good quality of life. We'll feed him fuzzies on a more frequent schedule and see how things go. The Dr. did say that given how quickly the tumor appeared, he probably won't last long.
I wanted to thank everyone for their support.

I just caught this thread and as I was reading along I was thinking something along these lines or what Susan was talking about earlier.

I had a very old blizzard that developed something similar to what you are seeing. I had it a couple more years beyond that with no ill effects...ate fine, defecated fine, shed fine. All fecal tests were clean and it did not appear to be in pain when the region was touch or manipulated. I eventually gave it away as a pet and to my knowledge the lump is still there and it is still alive.

[ceduke]

I'm glad you like Dr. Nakamura, and sorry that the news was not good. :(

[dcrocker]

I'm glad you like Dr. Nakamura, and sorry that the news was not good. :(

Yes, thanks for the reference. It was a good one. Even though the news wasn't good, it's nice not to have to wonder what's going on and whether or not there's anything we can do.