Eating but loosing weight

Hello,
Sorry this post is so long, but I hope someone here could give me some advice. One of my corn snakes is eating and pooping normally but is loosing a lot of weight.

A little background: I bought this corn as a hatchling and have had her for three years. I've never had a problem with her, except that she has always been smaller in size than my other corn which is around the same age. She is an enthusiastic F/T eater, and is housed alone in a 20 gallon long with aspen bedding. She has a bowl of fresh water at all times. I am using a UTH on one side of the tank which is controlled by a rheostat. My temps are 83-85 warm side and 70-72 cool side. I was feeding her one adult mouse every 10-14 days.

I noticed the weight loss gradually coming on over the last few months. I did not have a scale at the time, but it was visibly noticeable. I took her to the vet a month ago, and the vet said she looks good, just a little on the thin side. My vet said that the snake probably has a high metabolism and that I should feed her a little more often. This made some sense to me because she is very active and poops a lot more than my other corn.

The vet also thought that maybe the tank was too warm and causing her to drop weight. I went home and double checked everything in her cage. The temps were alright, but I did have a boa housed underneath her tank. I thought that might have somehow been heating up her cage more (even though my digital thermometers were still reading the ideal temp in the corn cage). I did relocate that boa cage just in case, because the weight loss occurred not long after I put that cage there.

So, I bumped up her feedings to every 7 days. At the vet's office she weighed 143 grams. Now a month later she is down to 120 grams and I am feeding her one adult mouse every 5-6 days. I know she is extremely tiny for a three year old corn. I have had 3 fecal tests done and all 3 have come back clear of parasites. I just don't know what the problem could be. I was certain she had internal parasites but all the tests are negative and the vet said she looked alright aside from being thin.

I'm going to make another vet appointment next week. In the meantime I wonder if anyone on this forum has any ideas what might going on here, and what I can do to help her. She is so thin I can see her spine now. There are some skin folds along her sides mainly at her neck and the tail end of her body. She is also a lot less active now, but is still eating. I know something is very wrong here, but what could it be?

Thanks for taking the time to read this long post, I just wanted to include as much information as possible. I am really worried about my snake and any help or advice would be very much appreciated.

Wish I could offer more than sympathy, but I think you're right to be concerned. That feeding regime should be a weight-gain plan for most adult Corns. You may be looking at some sort of "food processing" problem with kidneys or liver, but I'm not sure how a vet would go about diagnosing those. Maybe some blood tests are in order?

A tank being too warm is unlikely to cause weight loss on its own unless it puts the Corn off eating, which is clearly not the case here. Anyway, your temps sound ideal.

What do her poops look like? Apart from the increased frequency is there anything else about them that seems abnormal e.g. containing undigested mouse skin, very runny, smellier than normal etc.

Did your vet do a fecal exam? I really think you need to have one done. I don't remember reading that you had had one done.

At three years, 143grams is a bit small but not really unreasonable. Many things factor into weight. Age has little to do with it.

Last year I had a snake that wasn't gaining weight. She was a hatchling and for about four months, she hovered right around 8 grams. This was happening even though I was following a slightly modified version of the Munson Plan.

I contacted the original breeder and she suspected the "metabolism" thing. I wound up bumping up her feeding schedule to once every 3-4 days. I am proud to say that she is over a hundred grams a year later.

I then began to do some investigation and I found out that her tub was warmer, for whatever reason, then the rest of the snakes on the rack. Apparently, she sat over a hot spot. I take temps on three different places on the rack, not in individual tubs. Once I got the heat tape changed out and her temps back in normal range, she began to gain weight. Sometimes temperatures can affect metabolism. Too warm and they will need more food to grow.

So you may want to check the accuracy of your thermostats as well. Really follow-up with the vet and make sure they check for intestinal parasites.

Wayne

*edit* one thing that caught my attention when I reread your ad, was the pooping. That is a sign of a high metabolism. Start weighing your feeders and make sure they are the right size.

Also, I did see where you said you had three fecals done. Sorry, I missed that!

Bitsy: Her poops look normal as far as I can tell. They aren't extremely runny but aren't always a solid shape either. Although lately it almost appears like there is a little bit of red in some of them, but I can't really be sure. I might just be looking harder than I used to because I am worried about her. She will poop starting about a day after I feed her and then poop about 2 times a day for around 3 days or so.

Wayne: Thanks for the info. I will definitely check the temps over all parts of the heater, because she is always laying on the warm side. I will also try weighing my feeders, I haven't done that yet.

Should I feed her more often than every 5 days? I am worried about taxing her system somehow or causing a regurg with too many feedings.

Thank you both for the quick replies.

Akkat said:

Wayne: Thanks for the info. I will definitely check the temps over all parts of the heater, because she is always laying on the warm side. I will also try weighing my feeders, I haven't done that yet.

Should I feed her more often than every 5 days? I am worried about taxing her system somehow or causing a regurg with too many feedings.

Thank you both for the quick replies.

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From what I have been told, you can feed 24 hours after the snake poops. I did that until recently with my granite. I was feeding her ever 3ish days or about 24-36 hours after she pooped.

I really think you need to check your temps. Too high can affect metabolism. Maybe even turn it off this time of year. As long as it's not too cold in your house because of AC.

Weigh your feeders and maybe look at the munson plan as a chart. Here is a link to it

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50106

Also, slit your feeders at the back. This should help with digestion. Here is a link to that:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61584&highlight=slit+pinks

Good luck and keep us posted! If you need anything, please don't hesitate to ask. I have been through this very thing, I can relate to the frustration.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne, it is very frustrating and I feel so bad for her seeing how thin she is. I will double check all the heat when I get home tonight (I'm at work right now). My normal house temperature stays around 70 -72 degrees or so. If I turn off the heater completely, is that temperature safe for her even when she is digesting a meal? I hope it is just a simple problem like metabolism and not something worse. I am definitely going to try slitting the backs of her feeders too. Thanks for all the help and information, I really appreciate it!

I can't offer any help, but perhaps feeding rats would help keep her from losing so much weight so fast? Rats are higher in fat, so maybe the extra calories from that would help. Just my thinking. Hope you find out what's wrong.

I think that feeding after every poop constitutes power feeding. Feeding too often is not good for the snake. The poop you see could be from 3 feedings before. I've gotten poop from snakes that have been brumated for 3 months so they aren't completely clean and always having food on their stomachs is not healthy. their digestive systems are not designed to have food constantly on there. I would definitely get bloodwork done. Negative parasites means there is something else going on and I'd want a full panel check for kidney and liver. I suspect perhaps something with the kidneys or liver rather than anything else, although since her poop looks normal I would go more with kidney. Feeding more obviously isn't the answer. All my cornsnakes are very active and are only fed every two weeks and none lose weight excessively. There is something else at work. I doubt that feeding more is going to help her if she's unable to use what she eats. Hope she does better for you and I would definitely get the bloodwork.

Okay, so let's say she has a kidney or liver problem. Then what???

I would try feeding her every five days, and slit the backs of the mice. Adults seem big for a 120 gram snake. It wouldn't hurt to put Nutribac on her mice. Indefinitely. You can get it from Kathy Love. Has the vet done a grams stain of her poo? Also, there could be a difference between your scale and the vet's scale. I wouldn't compare weights between the two, but only between weights taken with the same scale.

Then you hope it's not going to kill her. If she does have serious issues, feeding her isn't going to help. Certainly overfeeding won't, but that would be up to a vet to help figure out.

Okay, so let's say she has a kidney or liver problem. Then what???

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If there's a problem with liver or kidneys, then rapid feeding will put them under even more stress and might cause increased harm or speed up a decline. You need to find out so that you can tailor her husbandry to manage the issue as best you can for her quality of life, even if it's ultimately untreatable.

lately it almost appears like there is a little bit of red in some of them, but I can't really be sure.

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Red bits in the poop doesn't sound good. It might be worth keeping her on newspaper for a couple of weeks to get a clear look and verify what (if anything) you're seeing. If the same holds true for reptiles as humans, and if the red is blood, this means it's undigested and may originate from internal bleeding lower down in the digestive system. A fecal test by the vet should be able to pick up blood in the poop even if it isn't visible. It could be nothing at all - but it'd be nice to be sure, for your own peace of mind.

MegF. said:

I think that feeding after every poop constitutes power feeding. Feeding too often is not good for the snake. The poop you see could be from 3 feedings before. I've gotten poop from snakes that have been brumated for 3 months so they aren't completely clean and always having food on their stomachs is not healthy. their digestive systems are not designed to have food constantly on there. I would definitely get bloodwork done. Negative parasites means there is something else going on and I'd want a full panel check for kidney and liver. I suspect perhaps something with the kidneys or liver rather than anything else, although since her poop looks normal I would go more with kidney. Feeding more obviously isn't the answer. All my cornsnakes are very active and are only fed every two weeks and none lose weight excessively. There is something else at work. I doubt that feeding more is going to help her if she's unable to use what she eats. Hope she does better for you and I would definitely get the bloodwork.

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The Munson plan is a form of "power feeding". If you go back several years, feeding more than once a week was considered power feeding and bad. Besides, I'm not going out on a limb here, on my own. I have been through this. I consulted Kathy L. before moving forward with my "power feeding" schedule.

Granted, there may be some more going on here than what is presented. She has taken the snake to the vet already. I'm giving her the best advice I can based on what little information is available. I did mention that she needs to see her vet again.

Sorry for the confusion!

Wayne

That may be, but advocating unhealthy practices isn't a good thing. Power feeding is acknowledged to be unhealthy. I'm not sure why anyone is in such a hurry to breed an immature animal that they feel they have to risk it's total health. It should be about raising and breeding the heathiest animals possible. But back to the point of the thread.....I think more study needs to be done to figure out the issues that this snake has and I think bloodwork is the way to do it. Once the values come back, then a course of treatment, if any are available, can be enacted.

Honestly, I just had a chance to sit back and think about this and I don't know?!?! What I am seeing is a 3yr snake that weighs between 120-140 grams. That is really small for what I would consider a 3yr old.

On the flip side of that, snakes only grow as much as their surroundings dictate. Not meaning cage size. They will grow based on the feeding and metabolism. Absent any alien force ie parasites or bacteria. Then again, it is common belief that all wild specimens carry both and they grow to "normal" lengths and weights.

I don't know why, but I seemed to have missed bits and pieces of the information that were presented in this thread. Probably has something to do with my ADHD or something? But anyway.

If your snake is pooping a lot and/or your seeing blood or "pink" in the stool, then you need to explore this a little more. I seem to think that if you had "blood" in the stool, that that would have been seen when you had the fecal done.

I'm really leaning toward a bacteria issue on this. Pooping several times after meals, pink in the stool, weight loss. Things aren't right. I even went back into the Kathy Loves book and read up on it. In the section under Digestive disorders (page 126) if you want to follow along, it lists those symptoms.

I would follow up with your vet. Let that person know exactly what is going on, as far as symptoms go and follow through. I would also look on Cornutopia.com for a product called "Nutribac". This is a probiotic and may help. She also lists taking a break from feeding for 2-3 weeks as a method for getting the gut flora to return to normal levels. I seem to think that you may want to steer clear from that based on your concern of weight loss.

I would also, for the time being, skip my earlier recommendation of increased food intake for the time being. At least until things start coming together.

Hope this helps a little more

Wayne

MegF. said:

That may be, but advocating unhealthy practices isn't a good thing. Power feeding is acknowledged to be unhealthy. I'm not sure why anyone is in such a hurry to breed an immature animal that they feel they have to risk it's total health. It should be about raising and breeding the heathiest animals possible. But back to the point of the thread.....I think more study needs to be done to figure out the issues that this snake has and I think bloodwork is the way to do it. Once the values come back, then a course of treatment, if any are available, can be enacted.

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To a point I agree. I don't believe in bulking for the sake of breeding. I would say that most of my collection wouldn't be of breeding size until they reach 4 years old. I'm in no hurry. But we are dealing with an animal that isn't thriving and/or is wasting away.

Last year at this time, I came to a conclusion that one of my snakes wasn't gaining weight. In fact she was losing weight. That was happening even though I had her on a good feeding schedule of once every 5 days. I was weighing my feeders, so I knew that wasn't the problem.

I contacted Kathy Love regarding this problem. She is the one who suggested the increase in feeding. She actually wanted me to bump it to every 2-3 days and include nutribac. Something I didn't feel comfortable doing. I also had a fecal done to make sure I wasn't dealing with a parasite and that came back clear.

Here we are, a year later. That snake has grown over a hundred grams. She is very healthy and feeding on a "regular" schedule. This is what I based my advice on. My own experience in dealing with a snake that wasn't thriving. Has nothing to do with breeding.

Wayne

Ah, that clarifies a bit. I knew that Kathy would never advocate power feeding as a regular thing. She states the opposite in her books and any time I've talked with her. I would also use the Nutribac. I have used it in cases of regurgitation in a snake now and again.I hope that labs can point to something treatable for your snake. I've been dealing with a chronic eye issue in my false water cobra and it's heartbreaking to not be able to get answers.

MegF. said:

Ah, that clarifies a bit. I knew that Kathy would never advocate power feeding as a regular thing. She states the opposite in her books and any time I've talked with her. I would also use the Nutribac. I have used it in cases of regurgitation in a snake now and again.I hope that labs can point to something treatable for your snake. I've been dealing with a chronic eye issue in my false water cobra and it's heartbreaking to not be able to get answers.

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Yeah, I don't advocate "power feeding" in a sense. In cases where a baby isn't growing and there are no answers, then it's a case by case basis. After exhausting other avenues.

Thanks :cheers:

Wayne

My first thought was, Parasite, I now lean more towards Bacterial.
I sadly do not have any advice to give excepting to say, give her the two week break to get the gut flora up to spec and levelled. I honestly cannot see a two to three week feeding break killing this snake. If it does then there was definitely something drastically wrong. The vet to my thinking would have picked up on something so seriously wrong.

Just as an aside, I have a 4 year old corn that eats regularly every 7 days, poops,sheds etc. perfectly and regularly, yet, she is the size of a yearling.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with her, opinions are that she is perfectly healthy.

I honestly cannot see a two to three week feeding break killing this snake. If it does then there was definitely something drastically wrong. The vet to my thinking would have picked up on something so seriously wrong.

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Doesn't sound like the vet has done much testing yet, apart from ruling out parasites.

If it's losing weight on one adult mouse every 5-6 days, then there's definitely something serious wrong. It's just a matter of getting it diagnosed. I think a 2-3 week feeding break could be potentially dangerous.

There is nothing "wrong" persay with feeding every 3-4 days. I would be inclined to feed a pair of weanlings/subadult mice around the 15g mark every three days and monitor weight of intake and...output for about a month, while monitoring snake weight. For us, our house is generally close to or at 80 degrees all day and then the AC catches up and brings it back down to 74 in the evening. Because of this we have ravenous feeders the lot of them, if we don't feed often they will lose weight. They are all cage cruisers, always curious to see what we are doing and get the chance to be out every day. So we feed them more often as a result. I see no issue with this, there are no fatty deposits, they are all healthy, bright eyed and alert animals.