Dead Snake, What's Fair?

So, what do you guys do in these situations? What do you think is fair?

I sold a baby fire on 1-11. It had eaten on 1-08 and every week before consistently for several months. There were no known issues with the animal. They left me a message on 1-18 saying they were having trouble getting it to eat. Replied 1-20, asked them what they had tried. "Just a frozen pinky". Replied 1-21 with some feeding advice. 2-2 they email to say the snake is dead. They did mention that the snake had eaten once for them two weeks ago and again last night. They're asking me to replace the snake. I don't really feel like I have any fault here.

Let me know what you think and say whether you are speaking as a buyer or seller.

Thanks

I am not sure. I feel like if I was the customer, and I was knowledgeable, and I had been doing everything right, and it just never ate for me, I would like some sort of compensation.

If I was the seller, and I sold an apparently healthy, thriving animal, and it died within weeks, and I was _certain_ the person hadn't killed it by accident or neglect, then I would do whatever I could to replace it.

Someone I bought a snake from, here, (Byron that sold me the Boot Keys, actually) told me his guarantee was, he would do whatever it took to make things right. Period. (What we were discussing was a sexing guarantee, but it was still very confidence inspiring, since I did not know him or his reputation at all).

But if someone bought the snake, dicked around with it, didn't contact me IMMEDIATELY when there was a problem, and follow up until the snake was back on track, then I would maybe not feel great about sending another baby off to its death. I think then no one would think the worse of you for not replacing or refunding, especially if you had things spelled out in your terms.

And thank God this wasn't about the snakes I sent you!!! Are my kids okay, BTW?

Yes, your snakes are fine. Sittin' in a chilled 55 degrees.

The snake did eat once or twice for them, so it certainly wasn't starvation. Could have been lack of water, poor temps, etc; or it was just doomed to die soon anyway. Seems odd that a sick animal on its death bed would have the energy to eat hours before dieing. They're supposedly gonna furnish a photo of the dead snake so I can at least verify their claim (having sold ~10,000 items on ebay teaches you a few things about some kinds of people.)

X2. It really is a case by case basis for me. When I first opened my store, I would replace anything to "make it right." But after enough people walking in the door and asking "what's your cheapest snake," I had to reconsider. I've had customers kill yearlings that had never missed a meal. I've had a customer demand a refund for an escapee. So much is out of your hands, but pippies can die. Like Nanci said, so much has to do with communication. If I had reason to believe it was housed/cared for properly, I'd replace the animal.

What is your policy on snakes sold and is it made clear to the buyer before the sale? And what exactly is the buyer seeking?

I replace animals that aren't eating in the buyer's care. I don't sell animals until they have eaten many times for me unassisted but that doesn't mean the buyer will be as successful. The reasons for their lack of success in care and feeding are too numerous to count. I normally will simply replace the animal but not until I make an attempt at ascertaining the reason for their failure. I don't want to sentence another animal to death or misery. Replacing the animal without a fuss makes the buyer feel good and given that the animal is not worth anything until sold (it actually costs me money the longer I keep it), I don't see it as a huge loss. Keep in mind this is a hobby for me so I might feel differently should it be my living. I still think it is good business to make the buyer feel like they haven't been taken advantage of though.
On the other hand, if it was made clear to the buyer that they had X number of days to make a claim and they didn't, then anything you choice to do beyond that timeframe is totally up to you. Buyers need to realize that they are purchasing a living creature with all of it's frailties.

Good Luck on this one and let us know how it works out.

Terri

I got a juvenile on the last reptilefair. Ive raised babycorns several times and noone had died on me. This one refused to eat and refused to poop even though the seller said he had eaten a couple of days before the fair.
I contacted the seller telling him I had a problem, and first he treated me like an idiot, lecturing me how I should keep a corn, OBS that he didnt ask how I actually kept the corn, just assumed I had no idea at all.
I told him kindly that I wasnt stupid and explained my juvenile quarantine for new arrivals. A couple of days later the snake died. (without pooping once for 2weeks)

He refunded me with a new snake without any complaints.

So as several already said, if YOU feel theyve done nothing wrong they deserve a new snake or a refund. If they didnt keep it in the right way, well tell them no.
Its as important that you feel that youre doing the right thing as they feel they are treated with respect. (sorry for bad grammar and misspellings)

cornsnakeforsale_com said:

"Just a frozen pinky".

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This may be a stupid question...Did they thaw the pinky out completely before feeding the snake?

i would ask for a vets opinion on c.o.d.

even if the snake had not eaten at all in their ownership, this between jab 8th and feb 2nd is not enough time to die of starvation, something smells here (imo) as said above, either thirst or temps or something even worse (neglect).

Dont know the buyer or seller but i would defo look into it deeply.....

As a seller I would make sure everything else was correct in the husbandry.

As a buyer I would think that maybe I should have contacted you sooner if I was having problems. And if you didn't help then I would be upset and be asking for that refund maybe...But then i would have done my research to make sure you wouldn't have left me in that lurch where I couldn't get help.

As a buyer I would like the seller to stand behind his animals sold...if I put money out to obtain the animal, I must have a desire to care for it, and if I am requesting another, that gives all indications that I want to care for the new animal. For future business and referrals I would replace the lost animal.

I started typing such a long reply that I realized no one would ever read the whole thing. So I'll just say I've been on both sides in this situation and given the details, I don't see how you should be held responsible. You may be one of those who wants to go the extra mile and make sure the customer is satisfied by offering a refund/replacement, but if I was in the buyer's shoes I certainly wouldn't expect that of you.

I would perhaps make it your policy now to have them put the snakes body in the fridge and take it to a vet of your choice to have a necropsy done. That way you would know for sure who's fault it was, if anybodies.

VickyChaiTea said:

I would perhaps make it your policy now to have them put the snakes body in the fridge and take it to a vet of your choice to have a necropsy done. That way you would know for sure who's fault it was, if anybodies.

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Unfortunately, unless someone had a large investment at stake, they probably would not go to the effort and expense...

Thanks for the replies, lively topic.

Yeah, I can't exactly require a vet visit for a $60 snake. I don't know their competency with snakes, but it seems pretty hard to kill a snake in just a couple of weeks unless it was temps or perhaps lack of water.

Haven't gotten a photo of the snake back yet, so we'll see.

Best thing I can think of so far is to give them another, less expensive snake (to split the loss I guess).

I just want to say that as a customer, I would never ask for a replacement snake from a breeder that gave me a live, eating, parasite-free snake. The snake ate for them. Twice. Snakes die. Young snakes especially. I know that. Is the breeder supposed to replace every snake that later dies? How long is it before the breeder is no longer required to replace a dead snake? A month? 6 months? A year? That is just my two cents. I honestly can't believe the gall they have in asking for another snake. I find it tacky.

I can't seem to find any written policy on your website about guarantees, etc. You may want to write one. In this case, the time frame from purchase to death is short enough to fall within many of the guarantee periods I've seen for well established hatchlings. However, you need to get detailed information about the exact care the hatchling has been receiving since entering it's new home to verify the death was not due to an issue with that. Asking for a photo of the dead hatchling is a priority and if you don't receive one, your part is done.

These are my terms. You're welcome to use any part of that that you like, as long as you rephrase it a little so it isn't an exact copy.

That said, obviously I would not sell a snake I had doubts about. If it dropped dead within a month, or so, for no apparent reason, as Terri says, they aren't worth anything until they are paid for, so a replacement, if I had one, would likely be in my best interest.

Dreamsnake said:

This may be a stupid question...Did they thaw the pinky out completely before feeding the snake?

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This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post by the OP. That in my eyes could be a very big reason why it died. Especially just after eating a frozen pink. Maybe they are making it to hot like microwaving it or boiling it. Then again it could just be that they are pulling it right from the freezer and throwing it right in the the tank.

After almost a month past with a well established animal and the fact that it ate for them twice I dont think I would offer a refund. My 2 cents.

As a buyer, I'll tell you a little background about a situation that happened to me last year....

I purchased a snake online at Fauna. An adult, wild caught snake that had been a fairly long-term captive. It had been injured, but survived, and had a well-healed scar where the injury was.

The snake arrived in a tiny box (very cramped for a 4' snake), and came out of the sack gasping for breath and acting lethargic. I immediately emailed the seller, expressing my concern for the snake's health, and sent him a photograph. He didn't seem worried, and since this was one of the first snakes I'd purchased online, I was comforted by his nonchalance about the whole thing, believing the snake would be ok. It didn't occur to me at the time that the snake might be dying, or I would have taken it to a vet asap.

On the morning of day 3 of the snake's arrival, I found it dead in the cage. It had never regained any sort of energy, and it had never stopped gasping. I was heartbroken, for the snake was beautiful, and I never even got a chance to know it....

Upon contacting the seller, I got a communication back from him, basically saying, "Gee, that sux. Sorry".

And that was that. He never offered to replace or refund the cost of the snake, and I didn't ask. At the time, I didn't know any better. I would be asking, now, though!

I offer this up as an example of a snake that arrived in obvious distress, and who died 2 days later. Was it my fault, when the snake arrived in bad shape? Nope. Do I believe the seller should have offered a refund, considering he had been immediately informed of the snake's condition at arrival? You betcha! Would I ever purchase from him again? Nope. Not only that, but if anyone asked about the seller, I'd steer them away from him.

It only takes one unhappy customer to do a lot of damage to a seller's reputation. You know how it goes--an unhappy customer will spread his unhappiness around with everyone who will listen. Why take the chance of being badmouthed forever by the one unhappy customer? I guess that if the snake was valuable, I might not be inclined to send a new one along until I'd ascertained that the last snake wasn't neglected to death, but for the sake of happy customers and future relations, I think I would be inclined to replace or refund (minus s/h costs) the snake or its cost, if there wasn't any clear indication that the buyer had neglected the animal.

Keep in mind that I don't sell living creatures, so I have no experience from the other side of the equation. I just know how I felt when that one snake died, and I know that I will never purchase from this person, again. I don't feel as if I was treated right for that particular situation and transaction. Perhaps others would think differently.

I'm sure I'm not alone in the amusement I have found in things people do. I have had customer call/email saying their snake isn't eating and when I question them about husbandry I am shocked/amused to find: they are feeding cooked pinks, pinkie rats not mice, frozen pinks, crickets, earth worms, hotdog pieces, the hatchling in with the adult, no heat, 120 F heat, no cool spot, no water, housed in a habitrail, housed with their bearded dragon or dart frogs, etc. Keep in mind that everyone buyer gets a brochure that lists care, housing and feeding. And if you have ever seen me at a show you would know I inundate the buyer with everything I can possible think of with regard to care and I emphasize that they contact me with any question no matter how "dumb" they think they it is. I even offer fully complete habitats for those that are just starting out. I ask tons of questions and often send people home to do more research before they buy. Yet I still get off the wall things happening. The human part of every sale is the hardest part by far.

Terri