Dead Snake, What's Fair?

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

So, what do you guys do in these situations? What do you think is fair?

I sold a baby fire on 1-11. It had eaten on 1-08 and every week before consistently for several months. There were no known issues with the animal. They left me a message on 1-18 saying they were having trouble getting it to eat. Replied 1-20, asked them what they had tried. "Just a frozen pinky". Replied 1-21 with some feeding advice. 2-2 they email to say the snake is dead. They did mention that the snake had eaten once for them two weeks ago and again last night. They're asking me to replace the snake. I don't really feel like I have any fault here.

Let me know what you think and say whether you are speaking as a buyer or seller.

Thanks

[Nanci]

I am not sure. I feel like if I was the customer, and I was knowledgeable, and I had been doing everything right, and it just never ate for me, I would like some sort of compensation.

If I was the seller, and I sold an apparently healthy, thriving animal, and it died within weeks, and I was _certain_ the person hadn't killed it by accident or neglect, then I would do whatever I could to replace it.

Someone I bought a snake from, here, (Byron that sold me the Boot Keys, actually) told me his guarantee was, he would do whatever it took to make things right. Period. (What we were discussing was a sexing guarantee, but it was still very confidence inspiring, since I did not know him or his reputation at all).

But if someone bought the snake, dicked around with it, didn't contact me IMMEDIATELY when there was a problem, and follow up until the snake was back on track, then I would maybe not feel great about sending another baby off to its death. I think then no one would think the worse of you for not replacing or refunding, especially if you had things spelled out in your terms.

And thank God this wasn't about the snakes I sent you!!! Are my kids okay, BTW?

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Yes, your snakes are fine. Sittin' in a chilled 55 degrees.

The snake did eat once or twice for them, so it certainly wasn't starvation. Could have been lack of water, poor temps, etc; or it was just doomed to die soon anyway. Seems odd that a sick animal on its death bed would have the energy to eat hours before dieing. They're supposedly gonna furnish a photo of the dead snake so I can at least verify their claim (having sold ~10,000 items on ebay teaches you a few things about some kinds of people.)

[Chip]

X2. It really is a case by case basis for me. When I first opened my store, I would replace anything to "make it right." But after enough people walking in the door and asking "what's your cheapest snake," I had to reconsider. I've had customers kill yearlings that had never missed a meal. I've had a customer demand a refund for an escapee. So much is out of your hands, but pippies can die. Like Nanci said, so much has to do with communication. If I had reason to believe it was housed/cared for properly, I'd replace the animal.

[crackerhead]

What is your policy on snakes sold and is it made clear to the buyer before the sale? And what exactly is the buyer seeking?

I replace animals that aren't eating in the buyer's care. I don't sell animals until they have eaten many times for me unassisted but that doesn't mean the buyer will be as successful. The reasons for their lack of success in care and feeding are too numerous to count. I normally will simply replace the animal but not until I make an attempt at ascertaining the reason for their failure. I don't want to sentence another animal to death or misery. Replacing the animal without a fuss makes the buyer feel good and given that the animal is not worth anything until sold (it actually costs me money the longer I keep it), I don't see it as a huge loss. Keep in mind this is a hobby for me so I might feel differently should it be my living. I still think it is good business to make the buyer feel like they haven't been taken advantage of though.
On the other hand, if it was made clear to the buyer that they had X number of days to make a claim and they didn't, then anything you choice to do beyond that timeframe is totally up to you. Buyers need to realize that they are purchasing a living creature with all of it's frailties.

Good Luck on this one and let us know how it works out.

Terri

[sk0gberg]

I got a juvenile on the last reptilefair. Ive raised babycorns several times and noone had died on me. This one refused to eat and refused to poop even though the seller said he had eaten a couple of days before the fair.
I contacted the seller telling him I had a problem, and first he treated me like an idiot, lecturing me how I should keep a corn, OBS that he didnt ask how I actually kept the corn, just assumed I had no idea at all.
I told him kindly that I wasnt stupid and explained my juvenile quarantine for new arrivals. A couple of days later the snake died. (without pooping once for 2weeks)

He refunded me with a new snake without any complaints.

So as several already said, if YOU feel theyve done nothing wrong they deserve a new snake or a refund. If they didnt keep it in the right way, well tell them no.
Its as important that you feel that youre doing the right thing as they feel they are treated with respect. (sorry for bad grammar and misspellings)

[Dreamsnake]

"Just a frozen pinky".



This may be a stupid question...Did they thaw the pinky out completely before feeding the snake?

[baitman]

i would ask for a vets opinion on c.o.d.

even if the snake had not eaten at all in their ownership, this between jab 8th and feb 2nd is not enough time to die of starvation, something smells here (imo) as said above, either thirst or temps or something even worse (neglect).

Dont know the buyer or seller but i would defo look into it deeply.....

[smallet]

As a seller I would make sure everything else was correct in the husbandry.

As a buyer I would think that maybe I should have contacted you sooner if I was having problems. And if you didn't help then I would be upset and be asking for that refund maybe...But then i would have done my research to make sure you wouldn't have left me in that lurch where I couldn't get help.

[painthorse]

As a buyer I would like the seller to stand behind his animals sold...if I put money out to obtain the animal, I must have a desire to care for it, and if I am requesting another, that gives all indications that I want to care for the new animal. For future business and referrals I would replace the lost animal.

[Kevin S.]

I started typing such a long reply that I realized no one would ever read the whole thing. So I'll just say I've been on both sides in this situation and given the details, I don't see how you should be held responsible. You may be one of those who wants to go the extra mile and make sure the customer is satisfied by offering a refund/replacement, but if I was in the buyer's shoes I certainly wouldn't expect that of you.

[VickyChaiTea]

I would perhaps make it your policy now to have them put the snakes body in the fridge and take it to a vet of your choice to have a necropsy done. That way you would know for sure who's fault it was, if anybodies.

[d0nk3y]

I would perhaps make it your policy now to have them put the snakes body in the fridge and take it to a vet of your choice to have a necropsy done. That way you would know for sure who's fault it was, if anybodies.

Unfortunately, unless someone had a large investment at stake, they probably would not go to the effort and expense...

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Thanks for the replies, lively topic.

Yeah, I can't exactly require a vet visit for a $60 snake. I don't know their competency with snakes, but it seems pretty hard to kill a snake in just a couple of weeks unless it was temps or perhaps lack of water.

Haven't gotten a photo of the snake back yet, so we'll see.

Best thing I can think of so far is to give them another, less expensive snake (to split the loss I guess).

[Naagas]

I just want to say that as a customer, I would never ask for a replacement snake from a breeder that gave me a live, eating, parasite-free snake. The snake ate for them. Twice. Snakes die. Young snakes especially. I know that. Is the breeder supposed to replace every snake that later dies? How long is it before the breeder is no longer required to replace a dead snake? A month? 6 months? A year? That is just my two cents. I honestly can't believe the gall they have in asking for another snake. I find it tacky.

[Susan]

I can't seem to find any written policy on your website about guarantees, etc. You may want to write one. In this case, the time frame from purchase to death is short enough to fall within many of the guarantee periods I've seen for well established hatchlings. However, you need to get detailed information about the exact care the hatchling has been receiving since entering it's new home to verify the death was not due to an issue with that. Asking for a photo of the dead hatchling is a priority and if you don't receive one, your part is done.

[Nanci]

These are my terms (http://snickersnakes.com/terms/). You're welcome to use any part of that that you like, as long as you rephrase it a little so it isn't an exact copy.

That said, obviously I would not sell a snake I had doubts about. If it dropped dead within a month, or so, for no apparent reason, as Terri says, they aren't worth anything until they are paid for, so a replacement, if I had one, would likely be in my best interest.

[Reptileman81]

This may be a stupid question...Did they thaw the pinky out completely before feeding the snake?

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the first post by the OP. That in my eyes could be a very big reason why it died. Especially just after eating a frozen pink. Maybe they are making it to hot like microwaving it or boiling it. Then again it could just be that they are pulling it right from the freezer and throwing it right in the the tank.

After almost a month past with a well established animal and the fact that it ate for them twice I dont think I would offer a refund. My 2 cents.

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

As a buyer, I'll tell you a little background about a situation that happened to me last year....

I purchased a snake online at Fauna. An adult, wild caught snake that had been a fairly long-term captive. It had been injured, but survived, and had a well-healed scar where the injury was.

The snake arrived in a tiny box (very cramped for a 4' snake), and came out of the sack gasping for breath and acting lethargic. I immediately emailed the seller, expressing my concern for the snake's health, and sent him a photograph. He didn't seem worried, and since this was one of the first snakes I'd purchased online, I was comforted by his nonchalance about the whole thing, believing the snake would be ok. It didn't occur to me at the time that the snake might be dying, or I would have taken it to a vet asap.

On the morning of day 3 of the snake's arrival, I found it dead in the cage. It had never regained any sort of energy, and it had never stopped gasping. I was heartbroken, for the snake was beautiful, and I never even got a chance to know it....

Upon contacting the seller, I got a communication back from him, basically saying, "Gee, that sux. Sorry".

And that was that. He never offered to replace or refund the cost of the snake, and I didn't ask. At the time, I didn't know any better. I would be asking, now, though!

I offer this up as an example of a snake that arrived in obvious distress, and who died 2 days later. Was it my fault, when the snake arrived in bad shape? Nope. Do I believe the seller should have offered a refund, considering he had been immediately informed of the snake's condition at arrival? You betcha! Would I ever purchase from him again? Nope. Not only that, but if anyone asked about the seller, I'd steer them away from him.

It only takes one unhappy customer to do a lot of damage to a seller's reputation. You know how it goes--an unhappy customer will spread his unhappiness around with everyone who will listen. Why take the chance of being badmouthed forever by the one unhappy customer? I guess that if the snake was valuable, I might not be inclined to send a new one along until I'd ascertained that the last snake wasn't neglected to death, but for the sake of happy customers and future relations, I think I would be inclined to replace or refund (minus s/h costs) the snake or its cost, if there wasn't any clear indication that the buyer had neglected the animal.

Keep in mind that I don't sell living creatures, so I have no experience from the other side of the equation. I just know how I felt when that one snake died, and I know that I will never purchase from this person, again. I don't feel as if I was treated right for that particular situation and transaction. Perhaps others would think differently.

[crackerhead]

I'm sure I'm not alone in the amusement I have found in things people do. I have had customer call/email saying their snake isn't eating and when I question them about husbandry I am shocked/amused to find: they are feeding cooked pinks, pinkie rats not mice, frozen pinks, crickets, earth worms, hotdog pieces, the hatchling in with the adult, no heat, 120 F heat, no cool spot, no water, housed in a habitrail, housed with their bearded dragon or dart frogs, etc. Keep in mind that everyone buyer gets a brochure that lists care, housing and feeding. And if you have ever seen me at a show you would know I inundate the buyer with everything I can possible think of with regard to care and I emphasize that they contact me with any question no matter how "dumb" they think they it is. I even offer fully complete habitats for those that are just starting out. I ask tons of questions and often send people home to do more research before they buy. Yet I still get off the wall things happening. The human part of every sale is the hardest part by far.;)

Terri

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Good points. I should give them more info probably. I don't like telling people what to do, but I would like to make sure they know what to do.

Good thread, looks like we have a range of opinions.

I just got done dealing with someone over on ebay. Since I've sold like 10000 things over there I've learned (not that anyone else would learn the same thing) that some people can't be pleased and sometimes it's not worth trying. They can be an upset customer all they want if I know it wasn't my fault. Maybe that sounds harsh, but you REALLY can't help some people and some people REALLY don't deserve it.

I'm not saying that's these people, I haven't really had much interaction from them and still haven't seen any photograph (though maybe that threw a wrench in their "let's tell him it died to get two for one" plan). I doubt they're being deceptive or anything, so I'll see how they respond if they do.

I should add some terms to the site like you say, though this wasn't sold online anyway.

[Nanci]

Good points. I should give them more info probably. I don't like telling people what to do, but I would like to make sure they know what to do.


I wrote a caresheet for my website covering all aspects of sornsnake care that I could think of, and then asked someone who knew nothing about snakes or reptiles or anything to read it through and ask any questions she would have before keeping a snake as a pet. The only question was what size mouse to feed. So I included the Munson Plan, although I feel like I would really rather revise it down a step.

[germantank22]

this may be a bit off topic, but my question concerns shipping and handling and who is responsible. So in this case, the snake died after ~ 1 month in the new owners possession. Assuming this wasn't a local deal, if the OP/breeder decides that a replacement animal is warranted, who is responsible for the shipping costs? I was just wondering what peoples' thoughts were on this.

[Ares2010]

Yeah, I would either refund them $30 or offer another snake of that value or close to. UNLESS you really feel they did something wrong. In any case, they would have to prove they didn't do anything wrong in order to demand a refund.

You could do the $30 or cheaper snake just to smooth things over IF you want to..

You have probably already thought of this.. OR you already have it on your site etc... put in detail what situation you would refund under and if a snake dies it is to be proven in no uncertain doubt that it was the breeders fault before a refund can be exchanged... or something to that effect... people will take advantage of you quickly if they can.

[Tavia]

I personally think that in most cases it should be the buyer that pays or in some cases that the cost should be split. In rare cases I'd say the seller should eat it all, but in cases like that, the seller would have to be so much at fault, that I probably wouldn't accept a replacement animal from them. I feel that it would be entirely based on the individual transaction and what the problem was.

[WingedSweetheart]

I would replace the snake only if I felt sure that they did not kill the previous one.

[Reptileman81]

this may be a bit off topic, but my question concerns shipping and handling and who is responsible. So in this case, the snake died after ~ 1 month in the new owners possession. Assuming this wasn't a local deal, if the OP/breeder decides that a replacement animal is warranted, who is responsible for the shipping costs? I was just wondering what peoples' thoughts were on this.

That is a good question. I had this happen to me last summer. Guy bought 2 babies from me. Shipped them out with Reptiles Express. Being that the guy live out in the middle of no where they could not get it there in the semi guarantied before 10:30am (UPS and Fedex dont guaranty that if its out in the middle of no where). So the snakes got to hot and were DOA. I had nothing else at the time to replace them with. So I refunded the guys money shipping and all.

So was it just very generous of me to refund the shipping or should I of not offered that or of split it with the buyer????

[starsevol]

That is a good question. I had this happen to me last summer. Guy bought 2 babies from me. Shipped them out with Reptiles Express. Being that the guy live out in the middle of no where they could not get it there in the semi guarantied before 10:30am (UPS and Fedex dont guaranty that if its out in the middle of no where). So the snakes got to hot and were DOA. I had nothing else at the time to replace them with. So I refunded the guys money shipping and all.

So was it just very generous of me to refund the shipping or should I of not offered that or of split it with the buyer????

I hope it wasn't those 2 motleys....

[Nanci]

That is a good question. I had this happen to me last summer. Guy bought 2 babies from me. Shipped them out with Reptiles Express. Being that the guy live out in the middle of no where they could not get it there in the semi guarantied before 10:30am (UPS and Fedex dont guaranty that if its out in the middle of no where). So the snakes got to hot and were DOA. I had nothing else at the time to replace them with. So I refunded the guys money shipping and all.

So was it just very generous of me to refund the shipping or should I of not offered that or of split it with the buyer????

I guess I would have asked him to pick them up, or just not sold him the snakes. Or waited until the temps were more agreeable. But I don't like letting them get on the truck at all, much less riding around all afternoon, too.

I guess the answer depends on if you knew ahead of time that they would not be delivered by 10:30, or 12:00. If you knew, it was risky of you to ship them, and risky of the buyer to accept shipment. If it was a delay that was unforeseen by either of you, then I think it was generous, but right.

[Reptileman81]

I hope it wasn't those 2 motleys....

You mean the Ghost Motleys. If so no I still have them. It was Amel Motleys.

I guess I would have asked him to pick them up, or just not sold him the snakes. Or waited until the temps were more agreeable. But I don't like letting them get on the truck at all, much less riding around all afternoon, too.

I guess the answer depends on if you knew ahead of time that they would not be delivered by 10:30, or 12:00. If you knew, it was risky of you to ship them, and risky of the buyer to accept shipment. If it was a delay that was unforeseen by either of you, then I think it was generous, but right.

Unfortunately no I did not know a head of time that he was out in the boonies so to speak. The snakes did not arrive until just after 4pm. They were DOA. The box was not damaged and the inside was not hot. So only thing I can figure is lack of air or just they fact they were in a bumpy loud truck all day. Needless to say I did refund the money all but what Paypal took from the transaction.

[Skully23]

Hmm this makes me think more. Just a few weeks ago I was going to sell three of my turtles to a guy on Fauna. He took forever to reply about them. When I finally got the shipping around and information....he wouldn't answer. I quickly got my refund on shipping and told him I wasn't selling because his lack of communication which led me to think he wouldn't care for them. Just three days ago one of the turtles I was going to sell him died. It shows how quickly things happen.

IMO I think you should be getting communication a lot faster than what you are. This shows how dedicated the buyer/seller is. You should also get pictures of set up and snake. Ask them everything on spot about what the temp was..etc...Investigate.

As a seller I don't know if I would refund something that was healthy. It could have been many things the buyer did. Like...Did they wait a week to feed and handle? Did they make sure the mice were the right size and not cold? Did they wait to handle after feedings? Did they cause it to regurgate??? Did they even pay attention to it?

As a buyer I would be upset but I would also be very understanding. I would want a new snake only if I learned from my mistakes. I could ask for a new snake but atleast pay for some of it....because in this case..What if the next one dies? Are they going to keep coming back for free?

You learn from your mistakes...that is how you become an experienced keeper.

[Nanci]

That's really sad, Josh. This is how I covered that situation in my terms. I do a lot of checking on the actual FedEx destination, too. I either call, or have a FedEx rep call, or have the buyer go in, just to make sure they really DO accept live animals. And I want them going to the main facility itself, if there is one within a reasonable distance- say 30 miles.

1) An adult must be present to receive the shipment on the first delivery attempt.

All shipments are sent “signature required,” no exceptions. This is a contractual obligation of all FedEx certified live reptile shippers. I always recommend the shipment be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center. Shipments held for pickup in this manner will be guaranteed live delivery by SnickerSnakes, even if picked up later in the day. These shipments are available much earlier than those sent out on the truck! Please check your FedEx preferences prior to arranging shipment because generally they will just leave a package, potentially without even
knocking, if they have your signature on file. My shipping agreement requires you to physically receive and sign for the snake as soon as it gets off the truck.

2) The forecast daily high temperature for your location on the delivery date must be in the 45°F to 90°F range. The forecast daily low temperature in your location must be above 45°F.

No guarantees are provided if the forecast daily high is outside the 45°F to 90°F range. You will need to assist me in scheduling your shipment during periods of extreme weather. While delays in scheduling a shipment may seem unbearable, they are nothing compared to opening a box containing a prized baby snake only to find it dead. For areas where temperatures outside this range are expected, I may, based upon the weather forecast, allow the shipment be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center.

3) The FedEx expected arrival time for the delivery location must be listed as between 8:00AM and 12:00PM (Noon).

Actual time of arrival varies by location, but is by 10:30AM or 12:00PM (Noon) in most areas. Shipments to rural locations, listed as by 4:30PM expected arrival times, spend excessive time on delivery trucks and run a higher risk of death to the snake. For areas where later delivery times are the norm, SnickerSnakes will require the shipment to be sent “hold for pickup” to the nearest FedEx Staffed Center.

If you, or anyone, would like to hear how I would handle a particular shipping weather situation, based on what I have gleaned from hours of questioning Carol, Kathy, and primarily Zorro, PM me. I'll tell you how I have packed the snakes for the weather. I am a huge believer in using those big gel packs as heat sinks. The cost is based more on the dimensions of the box than the weight, so you can often pop in one of those big two pound packs and not have any increase in price at all. But I'd rather have a shipment cost $75 and me suck up the cost than spend a day worrying about them making it.

I had a situation last year, in which I was so worried about the seller shipping the snakes safely to me (for temps) that I mailed out a complete shipping box to that person, with ice packs, labels, _everything_, all he had to do was put the snakes in. And then he didn't even use most of the cold packs!! But the snakes were fine, luckily.

[ghosthousecorns]

I do offer a short term guarantee and in a case like this I would replace the snake. I'd sure be wondering why a healthy eating hatchling died so quickly and my main suspect would be that the box got too hot or cold in transit.
I really should work on my page of terms and add some language about requiring a hold at fed ex in rural areas or waiving the guarantee, I hate it when I know a snake will be in a fed ex truck for a while. I try to talk almost everyone I ship to into holding at fed ex LOL

[Naagas]

This thread is really helpful as far as thinking about shipping terms and any guarantees.

[Susan]

I have become quite firm on where a package is delivered and picked up, and I can use the FedEx regulations to back my decisions up as they require, per our certification, that the package be shipped to a business address (ie: a commercial address), which means, NO residential delivery (a home business does not count). Most businesses have a delivery time by 10:30am/Noon and have a person available to accept delivery. Otherwise, the package must be held for pickup at a staffed FedEx location.

As for my refund/replacement policy, I have a variety of guarantees, depending upon the hatchling/snake itself. Out of eggs have no guarantee beyond live delivery, some hatchlings, such as sporadic feeders or hatchlings that started out as a problem but have come around may only get a 15 day guarantee, while the perfect hatchlings get a 30 day guarantee. There have been some instances where I won't stick to the guarantee and at least give a partial refund if something happens. I have one customer that received some help on a vet bill and will receive a replacement hatchling of equal or greater value (once I have one, and she may actually get more than one) due to all the trouble she's had with my hatchlings.

I have had my share of hatchlings, purchased from very reputable breeders, that have died close to the end of the guarantee period or a few months after, some that were supposed good feeders that refused everything I offer, and even adults that just die from unknown causes before they even come out of quarantine. Most of the time, I just chalk it up to "S-it happens", and only twice did I mention anything to the breeder I purchased the snake from. In both of those cases, I either received a refund or replacement snakes. And in the case of the replacement snakes, since those replacements were that breeders keepers from that year, I will offer that breeder a "pick of the clutch" in return.

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Update:

Got back pic of dead snake, confirmed.
Asked some questions, waiting to see what we find out.

Thanks for the replies

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Update:

Nothing. Asked them some questions over email about how they cared for it and haven't heard anything. Maybe their care wasn't so good after all.

[Skully23]

Update:

Nothing. Asked them some questions over email about how they cared for it and haven't heard anything. Maybe their care wasn't so good after all.

Did we get ahold of the same buyer!??? Wow the one I was going to sell my turtles to took 3 days to answer a simple question.

I really don't think someone who won't take the time to answer won't take the time to care. No snake for them.

[palmiro]

this is my experience: i bought my first snake at a shop, and after 3 days i started noticing clicks and signs of RI.. i told the shop and they tried to reassure me it was nothing.. i was totally new to snakes so i hoped they were right just to discover later that it was what i thought it was: RI (with bubbles and everything)..

they replaced the snake with a new one and guess what.. same exact problem.. so again.. i got a replacement (but they would still think it was me being too anxious and stuff)..

the replacement (my actual corn) guess what? had mites......... but i didnt ask for a replacement cause i was sick of it and took care of the problem.. but i had to tell the shop.

i guess if you notice health issues right away, it's your right to ask for a new healthy snake... especially where i live where a ghost corn is sold at 140€ (around 200$), which is crazy

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

@Skully23, Oh I hope it's not the same buyer, their communication is lousy.
@palmiro, That's too bad that you had such bad luck. Lots of stores really don't know how to (or choose not to) care for their animals very well.

UPDATE: Decided to give them a replacement snake as it seems they did everything right (from what they were telling me anyway). We split the loss in a way since I gave them a less expensive one as a replacement. Of course, wouldn't you know it, they took my last Abbott's Okeetee and someone called 45 minutes later wanting to buy it!

Thanks for the advice by the way.

[Nanci]

Well, hundreds of people have witnessed your ethical resolution- that is worth much more than your last Okeetee!

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

Thanks.

And hey... they just called me today (OH NO, NOW WHAT) and they said they want to buy another snake. So I guess that's good. I think.