Scale Infection?

[Naagas]

Tausara, my 2009 snow, started looking dry and crinkly about a month ago. I figured that he had a bad shed, so I gave him a humid hide and some soaks for the first three weeks.
What he looked like:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/226.jpg

He had a few spots like the one below, the red spot, which I assumed was from rubbing on stuff to help him shed.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/224.jpg

About a week ago, he started looking like a really bad pre/post shed, with scales sticking up everywhere. I let him soak with a towel and then "helped" him to shed by putting a little olive oil on him and letting him slither through the towel. Scales came off all over the place! It looked like a glitter tube had exploded on my lap.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/238.jpg

Then I checked in on him yesterday... and he looks awful.
A bunch of his belly scales came off when he soaked last time, and it is his belly that looks really bad.

I think it may be an infection. I say this mostly because I notice an off smell, kinda like musk but I don't think it is musk.

From the top, he is looking better:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/c7fb2ae8.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/40524348.jpg

But this is his belly:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/6478db28.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/8b62cf66.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/9090da80.jpg

It is red and sore looking, and feels too soft, like the scales are not hard enough there.

I have him on paper towel substrate, with a water dish too small to soak in. Everything is clean and sterile. Temps are good. Humidity is low.

I have been soaking him in a Novalsan solution and today I thoroughly cleaned him with soap and water, then put triple antibiotic cream on him.

He seems to act like it feels good to rub on stuff, and he is active and even pooped today.
I am extremely worried about him, though.

Is it vet time, or should I see if the antibiotic solution makes a difference first?

Oh: normal conditions are aspen substrate or coconut fiber substrate (he has had both in the past few months), hot side 85, cold side 60-70. He has never been known to soak in his water dish. He always has good sheds and has never skipped a meal until this last one.

[Susan]

I would take him to a vet because he might need more than topical antibiotics, if it is a bacterial infection, or an antifungal if it is a fungal/yeast infection, or it could be both. If he is actually losing scales and not just shed skin, it could be quite serious if not treated promptly and properly. His weight looks good so I wouldn't worry too much about him not eating for awhile. You just need to make sure he stays hydrated, especially if the vet puts him on certain injectable antibiotics.

[Naagas]

To clarify, he is not loosing actual scales. Just the clear layer on top.
His belly seems to be slightly goo-y? Like a wound before it scabs over.

I wonder how this happened? Poor guy.

He looks better today, but I'm making him a vet appointment. I don't want to risk there being an internal infection.

He is in discomfort, and I wish there was a pain med for snakes. He musked me when I was cleaning his belly today, but he still held still and let me. He is such a good boy.

[Susan]

And there is no chance he might have gotten burned by a malfunctioning heat source, right?

[Naagas]

No chance that it is a burn. I have flexwatt heat tape plugged into a thermostat, high of 85°F.
Also, Tausara looked just as bad on his top as his bottom at first. Now just his belly looks bad.
None of the other snakes are having a problem.

Is it possible that switching him to coconut husk substrate caused this?
That is the only big change that happened around this time.

[Naagas]

UPDATE: Tausara is in blue, so we will see what he looks like post-shed.
I am starting to think now that too much of his scale/shed/skin came off and that is what is going on, so that his tender skin was exposed.
There is no more strange smell, which now I'm thinking WAS musk, since he musked me several times when I was cleaning him day before yesterday.
I'm thinking that the poor guy was musking himself when he was alone because of the discomfort.
He has himself wedged now so his belly isn't touching very much surface.
:(

I am still at a loss as to why he is having this problem- and not any of the other snakes.

[VickyChaiTea]

My first guess is some kind of skin infection. Only a vet trip will give us the answer, I think.

[SnakeAround]

(The long post I wrote was not uploaded due to server time expiration so I only wrote the most important bit of it now)

Please don't soak the snake again if the skin does not get off but see a vet asap to find the cause of this. I think you'd better find the cause of this and threat it asap to prevent 'glued shed', hopefully. I tell you why I advise you so:

I had an experience with two egg bound females having a good shed but immediately after a very bad one, I soaked the first one, a double layer of skin came off a bit, I soaked again, ignoring a foul smell and then the deterioration of the skin on the belly went hay wire and turned into septicemia (infection spreading through the body in the blood). Now I think the exposed new skin was not ready to be exposed and absorbed the water, causing the skin to rot. It smelled like (peeled of) soggy thick skin after having soaked too long in a warm bath, like from your heels if you ever smelled that close up. But then five times worse. It also reminded me of dirty, wet dogs and general smell of something rotting. Both females died, probably also because of the many stuck eggs they both carried.

See here http://www.applegatereptiles.com/articles/bookshedding.htm for the only information I found about 'glued shed'. That is what it looked like to me, especially on the second female, because I did not soak her. My specialized reptile vet with 30 years experience had no clue how to solve it without soaking.

Google for septicemia in snakes and see what the symptoms are on the skin (patches of scales filled with the color of dried blood). Septicemia is very hard to threat and recover from for a snake.

I might scare you too much or unnecessary but better save then sorry IMO.

Good luck with this!

[SnakeAround]

Forgot to tell that a sudden bad shed should be considered as a sign of something harmful being present in the body. It might be a virus, or other bugs. Maybe your snake is carrying a virus, weakening her defense system and another bug took advantage of it when a bad shed exposed weak skin or caused a small wound.

[Naagas]

Forgot to tell that a sudden bad shed should be considered as a sign of something harmful being present in the body. It might be a virus, or other bugs. Maybe your snake is carrying a virus, weakening her defense system and another bug took advantage of it when a bad shed exposed weak skin or caused a small wound.

Thanks for the advice. :)

I have a vet appointment tomorrow morning, so we will see what is what.

[SnakeAround]

Good luck!

[Naagas]

Tausara does have an infection.

The vet says that it looks like a burn, and I do agree that it looks like one. I am paranoid about the temps now and I am in the process of switching over to new flexwatt and a new thermostat.

None of the other snakes are showing any signs of burns, thankfully.

I don't know if it really is a burn or some other infection. The vet said that she has seen similar effects from cedar substrate.

I was told to soak him daily in the antibacterial solution, give him antibiotic injections, and put two different topical solutions on (one an antibacterial and one that acts as a second skin).

She said that the lifting of the scales is actually blistering- blistering on a snake shows up as dry-looking lifting scales. She equated it to a pimple or abscess on a person. She said that the shed had nothing to do with tausara's current condition, that the bad shed is just a sign of infection.

So, I have learned a few things from this experience:
1. I will only use Aspen substrate. I don't know if the coconut husk had anything to do with it, but I don't wanna chance it.
2. It pays to be really paranoid about temps. I don't know if my temps ever got to burning range, but I have a nagging doubt that I caused this by only checking temps sporadically.
3. If an otherwise good shedder suddenly has problems shedding, something is probably wrong medically.
4. A part of snake keeping that needs to be factored in is vet bills. I spent $145 today. And there are more appointments that Tausara will need. I don't begrudge spending the money, it is something to keep in mind as my collection expands. Vet money needs to be budgeted in.

So, there it is.

I feel terrible, I just hope Tausara gets well soon.

[SnakeAround]

Scale rot is known to look brownish, just like a burn, just to let you know.
I'm glad you went to see the vet so you can start the treatment before the situation went really bad. Kudo's for seeing the vet! If she is not showing signs of weakness, which I understand is the case, I'm pretty sure she'll pull through. I've seen snakes in worse condition get well 100% personally and on this forum.

I have learned stuff like you summed up from experience too, I guess we all have to, at least partially. Don't feel bad about it. Reading on forums what other people do in certain situations, is not the same as having to decide what to do yourself at home in such a situation. You are the one who knows your snakes and only from experience your gut feeling concerning the health of your snakes will develop. Before that you will make mistakes, hopefully not too big, and feel insecure about what to do when your snakes seems to be ill or wounded. I've had snakes since 2005 and had some troubled snakes. I feel like my gut feeling is starting to be reliable now when it comes to judging the health of my own snakes, but still they are mysterious creatures who hide their symptoms.

Good luck in curing your snake!

[Karoni]

Naagas, I'm sorry you and Tausara had to go through this. But it sounds like you're doing everything you can for him. Good luck!

[Naagas]

Thank you for the kind words, both of you.

Tausara has had his second vet appointment and so far 4 antibiotic injections. I have spent another $150.

Luckily, Tausara is doing much better. He had a shed, which I helped him with, and there is still a little on his belly.
(however, as you can imagine, he doesn't like any pressure on his belly- he even tries to keep it off the paper towels in his viv.)

He fights the daily soaks, although once he is in the water for a few minutes, he attempts to submerge his whole body including his head.

He is almost able to coil up now, which he wouldn't do at first, which I suspect was because of the pain.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/3c8f50c5.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/c4505e33.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/a9f5a4ac.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/20a7fe44.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/489fd151.jpg

Him musking me in protest. Time to apply the cream and put him back home.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r141/desjclark/6f145354.jpg

[Karoni]

I bet he'll look even better after a shed or two. Did the vet say how long it would take for him to heal completely?

[Dreamsnake]

That last pic is interesting. I've never seen a vent open like that without poop. Hope he's healing alright and pulls through without too much difficulty. I've heard of pet insurance, would snake apply for that?

[carnivorouszoo]

Thank you for documenting with photos. That is very helpful to the rest of us to know something is not right and that it might be worse than just a bad shed.

[Naagas]

He is dead.

I went to get him for his daily soak and to give him his antibiotic dose, and he is dead.

I am too distraught to know what to think.

He was so full of life yesterday. He appeared to be getting better. Then he is dead. No warning. No downturn.

I feel so hopeless- I made him suffer through such pain and he died anyhow.

Poor, sweet Tausara.

[Dreamsnake]

I am so sorry for your loss. You did everything you could for him. I'd have done the exact same in your place. It is so hard to tell when reptiles are sick, they hide it so well. We all do what we can for them with the time they are with us. Give yourself some time for grief, and remember the times when he was strong and content. I believe that animals can become our spirit guides when they pass into the other world. Each animal we bring into our hearts enriches our lives so much that the pain of their passing is a price we are willing to endure.

[SnakeAround]

I'm very sorry for your loss! I know how you feel like it has been in vain, but you just tried to give him a chance to have a healthy life again for a long time. Maybe if you had not given him medication, he might have suffered more severe pain, which is not what you would have wanted either. Try not to upset yourself about what you made him go through; you tried to do the best, that's what the most important!

(To be honest I'm always a bit suspicious if a very ill animal gets more active quite suddenly, many times they are close to dying, I see it as a sign of 'anxiety'.)

[Karoni]

Oh, Naagas. I am so sorry. Don't torment yourself, if you can help it. You did the best you could with the knowledge you had. I think your efforts are praiseworthy.

[Naagas]

Thank you for all the kind comments.

I think an event like this is incredibly frustrating because it has the ability to make me doubt my skill at caring for snakes. It makes me frustrated because I spent so much money and it is in vain. I guess, in the end, that is just life, huh?

I'm glad that Tausara is no longer in pain. I'm glad that the other snakes are healthy and happy. I'm glad that I did what I could by Tausara.

Thanks again for the words of comfort. I need them.