Idiot

[Skye]

My dragon is an idiot. I was cleaning out the cage this morning and found that she has eaten the probe of the temperature probe. Just the chewed ends of the wires were left. The probe is a round one like this, although the thermometer is not this model, not that it matters.

http://www.car-accessories-shop.com/images/I434.gif

We use the indoor/outdoor probes in most cages because we like to leave them in there to record max. and min.s. It has never been a problem before and we've been keeping bearded dragons for a few years now. We have 10.

Has anyone else ever had this happen? We did a quick rush around and removed all the other probes from all the other cages, so now I guess we'll just use only the laser pointer temp. gun. We are bathing her, and hoping for the simplest option, if not I guess surgery is called for. Ouch.

Any ideas?

Skye

[Hurley]

Not sure how big that probe is, but we had a beardie come in that had swallowed 5 red marbles. She passed them just fine and just kept looking at us like, "What?"

I'd say keep the temps up, keep her hydrated/soaked, and watch for signs of lethargy, decreased appetite, failure to pass stools. At the first sign of a problem, I'd get her in to a reptile vet.

[CAV]

I had a female BD try to swallow the probe whole. Luckily, I was standing at the tank and watching it as it occured. I was able to pull it out before accomplished the feat.

Good luck!

[Skye]

Hurley,

how long did she take to pass the marbles?

She is eating and pooping fine so far, but no sign of the probe yet

Skye

[Skye]

ok, panic over, she passed it last night, probe intact, dragon seemingly intact, and just like Hurley described, she just kept looking at us as if to say "yeah, whats the problem?"

dragons, idiots

Skye

[Acradon]

What possessed it to eat it though? I always thought that they wouldn't eat what's not on their diet??

Acradon

[Skye]

This particular dragon, flame, is a real character and has enough personailty for about 5 dragons.

She is also a terror to have in a cage, and wrecks anything and everything. She was probably just bored, and decided to see what trouble she could get into next.

I love her to bits, but it is always a hair-raising moment to go home an see what she's been up to today.

As for eating - she'll go for any food, and also anything red or orange as her favourite foods are red and orange coloured. (Mango, strawberry, red dragon pellets, melon, hibsicus flowers...) I witnessed at first hand how this happens when a friend with red-varnished finger nails tried to pick her up and almost ended up being the next meal!

Like I said - dragons, idiots,

Skye

[Darin Chappell]

They also tend to go for really shiny objects too. I only had two dragons for a VERY brief period of time, but my wedding ring was a constant temptation for my two. They continually bit at it whenever my hand was near them or their cage.

The marbles (red of course) and the shiny black probes probably look remarkably like the sheen seen on beetle backs to the dragons. They are definately "eat first, ask questions later (if at all)" type animals!

[Skye]

I love that Darin

:)

Eat First, Ask Later

:)

so true, Skye

[Kat]

Hehe... oddly enough, my beardie attacks green things. He's tried to eat a green throw rug, the leg of a green folding chair (he REALLY wanted that chair, couldn't understand why he wasn't able to take a bite out of it), and pretty much anything else that's green that he comes across.

Silly critters...

-Kat

[Quigs]

Skye,

I'm certainly glad everything turned out for the best with all parties involved!

I have a few dragons myself and we all sat down last night and had a long chat about this!

:argue:

Quigs

[Taceas]

I have a BD too, a 2 year old male named Dundee.

http://www.mainecoon.net/~rain/Snakes/Dundee12704.JPG

Maybe some of you can answer a few questions for me. I know after 1.5 years I should know this stuff, but as Dundee ages he's gotten into the mindset of wasting rather than eating.

How often do you feed your BD? Once a day, or more?
How big are the portions?
What are the ingredients of the meal?

I've tried every pelleted diet known to mankind, and he refuses to eat any of them. And the ZooMed moist pellets being the most moist pellet offered? LOL, I've seen rabbit pellets softer.

Anyway, I've had to cut back his meals to once a day for sheer monetary mindedness. He wastes so much food it's rediculous. And I have to drive 30 miles to get the stuff thats nutritionally sound like kale, mustard greens, dandelion, etc. Our local grocery store only has iceberg and occasionally romaine that I wouldn't eat myself.

I try to pack in all of the daily nutrition into that one meal. And I'm sure thats deficient. But I'm at a loss of what to do. For him to eat, he has to be hungry enough to eat it all. If not, it just becomes floor litter.

Right now he gets:
2 Ectotherm Cricket Yummies, sliced (don't ask..he likes these better than the BD yummies)
Small handful of greens, tore up
Couple of carrot shavings, broke up
Couple slices of strawberries
7-10 lobster roaches
Sprinkle of Rep-Cal powder

He's not nearly as big-bodied as some of the BD's I've seen out there, as the people I got him from I think were backyard breeders and didn't know much about BD's either. When I first got him he had a lot of calcium deficieny problems and required veterinary care.

Also, what kind of setups do you guys have? I'm hoping to build him a custom enclosure once we get to our new house. But for the moment he's in a 30-gallon long tank. I know, not the best, but it was free. And since he doesn't run around all that much, and seems to prefer to sit on his basking stick, it doesn't seem to cause him all that much stress. Although I would like a bigger one, which I will actually have space for in the new house. Feel free to post pictures.

I really feel like I'm not giving him the best he can get, but the people over on KS's BD forum treat you like you killed Christ to ask for help. Finally there's some other people out there who won't throw stones at me for asking. I'm just looking for some advice on the matter.

Thanks for looking. =)

[boamampython]

HI SKYE,
IM GLAD IT TURNED OUT ALL RIGHT IN THE END.
ITS WORSE THAN HAVING KIDS NEVER KNOWING WHAT YOUR COMMING HOME TO.
ALL THE BEST
DAVE

[Russ Bates]

Misty,
It has been a few years since I owned dragons but my experiences were similar to yours. I had this one dragon that rarely pooped. I also noticed that she ate well sometimes and then spread food across the cage the other times.

I can't help but wonder if the beardies eating their cage sand doesn't cause some kind of impaction/hunger problems. Does your dragon poop often?

Russ

[CAV]

BDs eat a large variety of fruit and veggies. I've found that trial and error is necessary to determine the individual lizards likes and dislikes. FWIW, none of mine like the BD food bites. ;)

Suggestions:
1. Try frozen veggie mix (peas, carrots, corn)

2. Try common fruits. I have one that likes apples and another that eats f/t mango bites. (Also available in frozen food section)

3. You can buy mixed greens, throw in some mixed veggies, puree them and freeze in ice trays. When needed, thaw out about 3-5 cc and feed orally with a syringe (minus the sharp, metal, sticky part :))

4. I always offer dusted live crickets. Even adults like a few as a treat. I'm sure you already know this, but crickets can be shipped overnight at a substancial savings.

Have you checked the BD for micro flora? I had a male stop eating and the vet found a high level of coccidia. According to the professionals, small quantities of ingested sand can irritate the bowels, raising the numbers of coccidia to a level of concern. Just a thought.

Good luck!

[Skye]

Hi Taceas,

I know what you mean about the KS forum. I used to be a regular there, but it was more effort than it was worth, so I ceased visiting a few years back. I don't even go there to read anymore. Shame really, especially as I should warn people about the above probe incident, but anyway...

How often do you feed your BD? Once a day, or more?How big are the portions?
What are the ingredients of the meal?


We feed our beardies daily - every morning they are given a salad/greens mix. This compromises:
collard
kale
romaine
mustard greens
watercress
endive
radicchio
escarole
turnip greens
aragula (don't know how to spell this one)
dandelion leaves
frisee
bok choy

about every 5 days I go out and purchase about 5 ingredients from the above list, cut them up to make a bag of salad which is kept refrigerated between feedings. Each time I buy a different mix of varieties as I feel variety is the key to a good diet.

Do not include swiss chard or spinach, and kale should not be a main constituent, although it can be given in suitable quantities. Vegetables I add to the greens include small amounts of carrot, and grated sweet potato, zucchini, squash..

I mix in RepCal pellets with the salad in the bag - they absorb some of the moisture so aren't quite so hard, although the dragons actually prefer them bone dry and they have great fun crunching them.

If you have access to hibiscus flowers, they are a big hit with our dragons. Other edible flowers would also go down well as would dandelion heads. Finally, dragons do generally like fruit, but this should be kept to 5-10% of the diet due to sugar content. Ours adore honeydew melon, strawberries, mango and raspberries.

Supplementation is obviously important. We use dragon dust made by Sue Donaghue at:
herp.nutrition (http://www.herpnutrition.com/)

I have been very happy with her products for a number of years now. When you say that you are using rep-cal powder - which one, there are a number? And are you providing vitamins as well as minerals?

With the insect issue, we offer live crickets as a treat a couple of times per week and in the afternoons only so the dragons always eat their salad in the morning. We also offer mealworms and waxworms from time to time, but never more than a few at one feeding. We have found dragons to adore silkworms too.

The fact that he needed vet assisstance when you got him means that he didn't receive the correct care in his formative months, and so he may never grow to be a big dragon. However, I suspect all you want is a happy, healthy dragon, and not a huge one. Have you reviewed you UV light situation? Are you using a UV heat bulb, or fluorescent lighting? If you are using the tube - what make is it, and when was it last replaced. This could be a reason for decreased appetite.

Another reason for poor feeding response could be temperatures. Aim for around 80 F on the cool end, and 95-105 F in the basking spot.

This was our first dragon enclosure, before we stopped using sand. We now use lizard litter (ESU) or carefresh (a recycled paper product), and paper towel for hatchlings.
You can see one dragon on the right.
http://clevinger.colorado.edu/peter/bearded_dragons/assets/australia.jpg

Now we have two of our dragons in a home-built 5 x 2 x 3 ft cage. You can see the lizard litter in this picture, and this is how we tend to set up our dragon cages in general with lots of rocks and wood (all placed so stupid dragons can't dig underneath them and get squashed.)
http://clevinger.colorado.edu/peter/bearded_dragons/assets/I_cage.jpg

Males we keep individually in 4 ft. vision cages, and we have a group of 4 adult girls in the largest cage vision makes which is 80 x 28 x 44 inches. This is what the cage looks like, although this is the vision publicity shot, and our one is not set-up like in the picture.

http://lllreptile.com/v2/images/catalog/product/V734.JPG

Finally I have to agree with CAV - get a fecal done just to be sure. Dragons seem to be very good at incubating large numbers of parasites. I do fecals on all our snakes and dragons twice a year.

Best Wishes, Skye

[Taceas]

Wow, thanks for the information guys. It really helps to know that possibly I'm not alone. =P

I think for me to get some of those greens, I'd have to grow them myself. I've never seen them for sale around here. This is part the part of the country that likes it's meat and potatoes. So health food of any sort is just something to rot on the grocer's shelf.

Right now his diet consists mainly of Fresh Express Spring Mix salad and dandelion leaves and flowers. And a few fresh raspberries, along with a few dusted roaches. I know spinach in excessive quantities is a no-no due to the oxalates in it, which can rob the body of calcium I believe. If he ever gets spinach, its a pinch of the chopped frozen stuff. But he really likes his dandelions, and right now they're growing great in the yard. About once a month, he'll get 2 newborn pinks as a treat, which he relishes.

The RepCal pellets are now rodent treats, as are my ZuPreme pellets for my Quaker. I might give them a try again, but he'll take a bite of them and then just spit them right back out like "what the heck are you trying to feed me?". I went ahead and ordered some of the Ectothem stuff, just to see if his tastes have changed since I've had him. Got some carnivore yummies, dragon yummies, and iguana yummies. They all sound pretty good to me anyway. And he loves the cricket yummies that I feed my roaches.

He loves most fruit, however apple has him confounded I think. He likes raspberries, strawberries, and most melons. But I agree about the sugar, he doesn't get very much.

About flowers. Where in the heck do you get hibiscus flowers? The only thing hibiscus like we have around here is called Rose of Sharon, its an heirloom plant thats in the hibiscus family. Judging from the way the damned Japanese beetles eat the flowers to death, they couldn't be toxic. What about Nasturtium flowers and leaves? They have a peppery taste to them, but are quite edible as I put them in my own salads.

I should have been more specific on his supplimentation powders. He gets the phosphorus free calcium + D3 by RepCal and also gets Herptivite from RepCal. He gets the calcium on his bugs, and the herptivite once to twice a month. I've tried the vitamin sprays, and he just spits the food with it on it right back out. But he doesn't have a problem with the powders. I might have to check into the powders you're buying however.

I find crickets a pain in the rear to take care of. Sure they're cheap, but they die way too easily for me to keep any for any length of time. And especially for one dragon, its easier and cheaper for me to feed him roaches. They breed readily for me and eat just about everything you throw in there.

Right now his substrate is Bone-Aid sand. I've tried everything, and so far this stuff seems to be doing pretty good. I've tried the ESU Lizard Litter, and he ate way too much of it for my own comfort. Next I tried wheat bran. I liked the fact it was totally digestable and soft, but it was super super dusty. And since he tends to nip, getting him out for a bath every day was an adventure that my fingers didn't want to risk. Paper towels was a joke as was newspaper. Repticarpet was nice, but it's a pain in the rear to clean.

He's got an ESU light fixture. It holds 2 incandecent (one 100 watt, one 75 watt) and a 24" fluorescent ESU Desert 7.0 UVB bulb. It's been in there for over a year I'd say. The temps up on his basking log are around 101-103F. And around the mid 80's down on the ground.

Supposedly he's a yellow x snow? He's got some nice yellow highlights, but thats it. I think he's pretty normal looking otherwise. I was hoping for something prettier, but he's what I got. When I first got him, he was pretty small. And within a day of having him, he started having seizures and muscle twitching pretty bad. So I went to the vet and they thought it could either be a calcium deficiency or a vitamin B imbalance. So they gave him injections of both calcium and vitamin B, and within minutes his trembling stopped. So I'm not sure which it was that was the culprit. But he hasn't had any problems since.

I think he's pretty long, but he just doesn't have much bulk to him. Some of the BD's I see in pictures like in Reptiles magazine, they look like sumo wrestlers compared to him. They just look so chubby. I'll try to get a better picture of him this week so you can see his size and how he checks out.

So you guys only feed yours once a day too? Well that's relieving, I felt like I was starving the guy. But he poos once or twice a day, no problem with that. Finding a fresh poo is difficult though for a fecal sample. Plus, it's a pain to drive 30 miles to the only reptile vet just to drop off poo. Do you think a regular vet could do a fecal test and determine if anything is wrong?

Thanks for the much needed advice, KS has gone downhill on everything. Their other forums are dead..no one answers your post. And the reptile posts are rediculous. It was too much of a hassle to wade through the junk, and 9 times out of 10 when someone responded to your "help" post, they made it worse and ran you off...something that I love about this site. Sure, people blow up once in a while, but on the whole everyone is a little bit more forgiving and informative. Afterall, if I was an expert..I'd be working for the San Diego Zoo right now. =P


And Skye, that enclosure in the second pic is exactly what I had envisioned for my custom enclosure. Do you have any plans on paper for that? Is that just like a waiting room sliding window, like in a doctor's office? And how do you get your light fixture to mount like that, without the top of the enclusure getting too hot, a wire top? I'd be interested in finding out how you do your enclosure because it looks great. =)

[Skye]

Gosh - that was a long reply - thanks for the feedback on our feedback!

just a couple of points:

1) before I started with Sue Donaghue's powders, I used just waht you are using - the Calcium with D3 and the herptivite. I still have animals that I use exactly that combination for. I am assuming the calcium is daily since it is on the bugs, and I would go with every two weeks for the herptivite.

2) A regular vet should be able to do a fecal since most parasites look similar from species to species, i.e. there are clearly recognisable classes of parasites. They might not know the treatment though, so then you would have to refer to a knowledgable vet. Ask here too, and some reptile vets do 'phone consultations.

3) Crickets can be a pain if you are only dealing with them for just one animal and I don't see why roaches shouldn't be just as good. I buy 5 - 7,000 crickets a week though, so its easy for me!

4) We went to Home Depot last year and bought a huge hibiscus plant that we keep outdoors during the summer, and bring indoors during the winter. It keeps producing gorgeous flowers, but I never get to enjoy seeing the as we pick them and feed them straight away each time.

http://www.deerfernfarms.com/images/Web-Food-HibiscusBloomDetail.jpg

I have also fed the edible flowers you can buy in the supermarkets, but they are too expensive for what you get.

5) If your bulb is over a year old, it is no longer producing sufficient UV. Get a new one. Before I switched over to UV Heat bulbs, I always bought Reptisun 5.0, but I suspect my knowledge on this market is out-of-date.

6) I'm afraid I don't have any written plans for the enclosure - we just went out and bought the wood and it took about a weekend to make. The doors were actually sliding glass cabinet doors from my husband's work place where no-one wanted doors on the cabinets because they had to reach in too often, so they just took them off to have open shelves, and we went home with the doors and tracks! The enclosure is open on the top, and the lights are currently suspended by steel cables from the corner posts. Eventually we plan to build the second layer...

Skye

[Taceas]

I visited Sue Donaghue's site and found it rather hard to read. It was all jumbled up and not very cohesive. However, I downloaded the catalog .pdf and made some understanding of it. =P

Does the fact that her dragon dust uses Vitamin A pique your curiosity?

Most reputable reptile vitamins I've seen shy away from Vitamin A because of it's tendency to be stored in excess amounts in the body and cause problems. I remember reading all about that when I had my leopard geckos. Thats why I've stuck with RepCal's Herptivite for so long, it utilizes beta carotene, which the body converts into Vitamin A as needed, thus avoiding the Vitamin A toxicity.

I just thought it odd that she goes through all of these elaborate hoops to provide what sounds like a really great and nutritionally sound product, yet makes what I consider an error on something a veterinarian should know about.

Maybe I'll e-mail her and see what she has to say about it. =P

But I'll definately try the dust I think. It's got some stuff in it that I think are important to nutrition that Herptivite doesn't offer..like acidophilus. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Hurley]

I had the same experience with the pellets. My beardies would look at them like they were lower than rabbit pizzle. I started soaking them in a bit of apple juice and suddenly they became a coveted delicacy. I gradually reduced the amount of juice added by diluting with water until eventually they were eating the water soaked pellets well.

Just my experience with pellets.

I too fed the greens mixes and tried to add as much variety into it as possible. They also got a rare pinky for a treat as well as dusted crickets. Their special treat was wax worms, but I tried to limit those due to the high fat content....but man do they love them.

Unfortunately, due to space restrictions when I had to move to Chicago, I had to give them to a friend when I left. :( I still miss them. They had the best personalities.

[gelshark]

Just thought I'd bump a really old thread since I know Chip likes to read them...

[yoopergal]

Thanks for the bump! I learned a lot about beardies tonight :)