Pet store advice about feeding hatchlings...

[jessicalb]

Spent some time on the phone today with the local PetCo's "reptile expert". The hatchling I bought is not eating, so I called to try to get a detailed history and some info...

He told me that corns find their food with heat only and not at all with smell. He said to make sure the pink is at least 101 degrees before I offer it. That seems way wrong to me - and I know our other corn has only ever tagged us when we had scent on our hands. Never just when we had hot hands fiddling with him.

He also said that if he doesn't eat soon, I should force his mouth open with a credit card type piece of plastic and stick the pink in and hold it until he swallows it. This sounds ... I don't know. Risky? Dangerous? Wrong?

And he has no idea when this guy ate if at all, or if he has shed. He said that they had had them for about two weeks before I got them. So, obviously this is so incredibly un-ideal and a sale will never prompt me to buy from a crappy effing pet store again. :(

Anyway, I attempted a pink Thursday night and he just ignored it. I have read a bunch on difficulty feeding hatchlings and plan to try feeding him in a small paper lunch bag on Sunday. I guess I should leave this in his viv overnight, so if he wiggles out he is contained but he can't get any aspen on the pink this way.

So, any input on the PetCo guy's ideas? Any other advice?

Thanks!

[Ophion]

I am probably not going to be of much help for your little one (except that it all just sounds terribly wrong) as I am just getting into this myself, but I can say something to the general Petco idea. Petco's 'experts' are trained by a computer program and by reading so much material and taking so many quiz's they become 'experts'. This information is typically basic and not (obviously) entirely correct. Its kind of like taking your car to a place that does oil changes and asking them to do an engine swap and tune. They know more about a car than the average person, but you wouldn't trust them to do more than an oil change (if even that).

There are good an bads everywhere. Petco is a chain, but the people working there aren't. There are actually people who know what they are talking about that work at them, but it is fewer than there should be. If you think it is worth your time, once you get the confirmed correct information I would put in an complaint (that store manager or district manager). Certainly don't want to possibly risk someone's job, but also don't want incorrect information being spread and killing people's animals.

Good luck with you hatchling!

[bitsy]

Well Petco man is partly right. Temperature can be a major factor. Superheating a pinkie before offering it really can work and it's definitely worth a try.

However, smell is most definitely a factor when trying to get a "problem child" to eat. Some of the first things to try are scenting the pinkie with different things - I use the juice from a tin of tuna (not brine, as I don't know if their systems can handle salt) and others have had success with things like chicken broth. Sometimes making the smell either different or stronger, seems to encourage them.

Another trick is to wash the pinkie to take the smell away completely - something like Ivory soap in the US I believe?

Another slightly more gory method is to "brain" the pinkie before offering it. Doing it whilst still frozen makes it slightly less ghastly.

Leaving it in a paper bag woth the pinkie overnight is always a good one to try. Sometimes the absolute dark and quiet makes them feel safer about eating.

For me, force-feeding as recommended by Petco Man is a very last resort if you seriously think the hatchling will die without it. In my exerience, it's a very stressful process for the snake and in the couple of seasons that I tried it, none of my force-feeders ever ate of their own accord.

I believe there's a sticky at the top of the Health Issues/Feeding Problems section, with a comprehensive list of tricks to try with non-feeders, here:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342

[Outcast]

Hey now, I am getting my Petco "expert" certification today... all in 5 hours of training... It is unfortunate that Petco as a company does not hire more people who actually know reptiles. I have already gotten on a couple of the managers nerves because I have flat out told them that they had no idea what they were talking about when it came to our reptiles, and that our housing of said reptiles is horrible.

Basically what the guy was telling you is from Petco's training, which is supposedly looked over by a veterinarian. I would suggest complaining to corporate that their care sheets are antiquated and that they totally need to revamp their training programs.

On Topic...
How are you thawing out the pink? I run mine under hot water until they are thawed and quite warm. I have noticed that my pinkies tend to cool down quite a bit by the time I get into the snake room.... Also, if you have a lizard in the house, you could rub the pinkie on it and try feeding that way.
Another thing, your snake may only want live pinkies right now. I have a kingsnake that preferred live for the longest time, and now have him on f/t. But unfortunately my recent escapee, who was just caught as it started warming up, she was out all winter, has switched to live... It is a strange game, trying to play with snakes preferences.

[jessicalb]

I thawed the pink in my hand and under warm water until it wasn't cold anymore, because I had heard that using hot water could actually cook them and make it unappetizing for the snake. I will definitely heat it more thoroughly next time.

Once I get this guy stabilized and feeding I will write PetCo and forward them a Kathy Love care sheet or something I compile from here.

Thanks for all the great ideas and the link! Think good hungry thoughts for my little guy on Sunday!

[CentricMalteser]

i would only stick to luke warm, as to oppose superheated, as that could burn the inside of the snake digetsive system,

i would never certainly force feed mine unless it was the absolutle last resort, and what I mean by absolute last resort is if i have tried

braining, leaving snakey alone with food in a small dark place, like a tub with a towel over it
and live food
and if after leaving it 5 days in between each try, snakey started losing any weight

force feeding creates a hell of a lot of stress for them and can often put them of future feeds as the smell can be assosciated with stress

Well Petco man is partly right. Temperature can be a major factor. Superheating a pinkie before offering it really can work and it's definitely worth a try.

[WingedSweetheart]

I think that petco guy is mixing up other snakes with corns. Corns don't have heat pits and therefore do not hunt by sensing heat (. They go mainly by smell. The whole thing about making sure the mouse is hot has nothing to do with them being attracted to the heat like say a viper would. Making the mouse hot just makes it seem more like its fresh or alive to the snake. Real baby mice feel hot to the touch and your snake is gonna notice if it gets a hold of a mouth full of cold dead flesh.

[jessicalb]

So when we are talking about how hot the pink should be, I should heat him to a temp that is hot to my hand but not hot enough to be uncomfortable for me, and that would be safe? Maybe with hot tap water?

[WingedSweetheart]

I warm my mice in a bowl of hot tap water. I get the tap as hot as possible and fill a bowl. Then I put the mice in. A pinkie actually only takes a few seconds to a minute. I used to have pet mice and so I get the body to feel like my mice felt. So very warm to the touch.

[CentricMalteser]

yes exactly,

thats what i do, use a cup of hot water but not so its uncomfortable, deforst my pinky in it,

and by the time it is ready (usually few minutes, i squezze every part of body make sure its thawed and soft), i give a quick paper towel dry and then feed snakey

and although corns do NOT have heat pits,

they still can sense some heat by tasting or air particles

that is how they can find their warm part of their tank, and also a warm pinky does "taste" as if it's still alive/just died


So when we are talking about how hot the pink should be, I should heat him to a temp that is hot to my hand but not hot enough to be uncomfortable for me, and that would be safe? Maybe with hot tap water?

[jessicalb]

So Mal is in the bag with the heated pink in his viv. He was super freaked about being picked up and put in a bag. While I had him in the bag I weighed him (the scale was already set to zero with the bag on it). He is 6.3 grams. That seems not frighteningly small but pretty little. I also got a rough measurement of about 13 inches when he was pacing his tank the other night.

Wish me luck that I find a fat and happy snake in the paper bag in the morning!

[jessicalb]

Oh, and it's killing me to wait. I think Ark needs more handling. :P

[smallet]

I had one start at 6 grams and within two months he was at 16 grams. No worries.

[jessicalb]

He ate the pinkie! I am so incredibly thrilled!!!! YAY!!!!

Thanks, Smallet, it's good to hear these little fellows can make good progress! :)

[bitsy]

RESULT!!!! So pleased for you - I know what a triumph it feels, when you finally get a reluctant feeder to eat. Well done!

[jessicalb]

Thanks Bitsy! I really am over the moon! :D

[CentricMalteser]

so happy for you

what method did you use? as this will be helpful to future members

[jessicalb]

I waited a full 72 hours after the last feeding attempt, and then put Mal in a paper bag with a hot pinkie. I rolled the top down and left it in his viv overnight. This morning the pinkie was gone! When I let him out of the bag, I just unrolled it and tipped it so he could climb out on his own. He's such a little spaz I want to avoid freaking him out into a regurge if at all possible. :D

[CentricMalteser]

well done!!!! and good idea too

and if you are going to feed him outside his tank (which I do with Bruge), then just get a small tub, and do the same thing, but after an hour come back to him and do the same thing let him go into his home

but really overjoyed for you!!!

[jessicalb]

Yeah, normally we feed outside the tank, but with the paper bag thing, I was afraid he would sneak out overnight. Hopefully over time he will eat more willingly and I can just put him in a tub to eat and then place him back in his viv to digest. Ark ate like that from day one.

I feel so lucky that Ark was so easy. If Mal had been my first I would be a wreck!

[Nanci]

Glad he ate for you! I agree with the Petco guy that the pink needs to be 101F. I thaw in hot water, just for a couple minutes, get the feeding container ready, run the pink under HOT water for a few seconds, then put it in the deli cup and put the snake in right away. Actually, I slit the mice up until the snake is on adult mice, too.

I'd feed him again in five days and do it exactly like the first time! After you have a couple meals in him you can start messing around with a feeding container and whatever, but since he has agreed to feed in a bag in his viv I'd just do that a few times.

[jessicalb]

Thanks Nanci! I definitely will continue with what works until he has some weight on him. He's such a neat little fellow. I really missed watching him roam the tank last night!

[annacobb]

Ive been silently following this thread and I'm so happy for you and your lil guy! congrats :)

[smallet]

Yes congratulations are in order. Getting over that first feeding can be stressful for sure. I am sure he'll be packing on the wieght in no time.

[jessicalb]

Thanks, guys! Now I suppose it's time to put in a big RodentPro order! :)

[jessicalb]

He, now that he has eaten and come out of hiding and explored the tank, what does everyone think about handling? Should I get a few more good feeds in him before I get him out to play and get used to me? Or could I start bringing him out once a day for a few minutes, as dictated by feeding and waiting of course?

[annacobb]

Well my logic is that it never hurts anything to wait a bit longer...especially with his feeding problem. I read on another thread that a feeding schedual should be established before handling and I think it probibly is right...well it makes since to me anyway :)

[jessicalb]

I skipped on handling him - the only time was to move him to the bag to weigh and feed him. Amazing news - when I dropped the hot pinkie in and took a careful look to make sure I didn't accidentally roll Mal up in the bag, he was already going for it. I left everything alone and watched him eat! I feel like he gave me a present, letting me see him go to town on that pinkie. Oh, and his weight? A whopping 6.8 grams! Up half a gram from last time!

So awesome. :D

[bitsy]

Sounds like he's off and running with a vengeance! Congratulations. It does feel a bit like Christmas and birthdays all in one, when a reluctant feeder eventually decides to eat.

[hoppadoodle12]

I read in a corn snake hand book that you can 'force feed' a snake, but its not as brutal as that. You can hold the snake at about 1/3 down from its head, having the main body section in the palm of your hand and offer a pinkie to it, hold the snake while it decides whether or not to strike. Apparently you can use tweeezers to tap the pinkie on the snakes tail so that it strikes it. Apparently then it will latch on and consume, but it is VITAL that you remain dead still and do not move the snake what so ever until it has been swallowed...

I'm saying this from memory from a book a week months ago, so check it up but im sure thats the way to do it..

[rickmoss95]

i have not read all the posts so if i answer what someone else has i am sorry. i would first check the temps in the cage(obviously, im sure you have done this). if the baby has never eaten a meal yet you may just bite the bullit and try live. once you get him to eat then it will switch to f/t easily usually. also very hot water will actually slightly cook a pinky making the smell somewhat different, the snake may not like the "new" smell. if you thaw in water, do not exceed 150 degrees(another advantage to having a temp gun ;) ). you may also try putting the snake and the feeder in a small deli cup with a lid(and air holes) inside his cage overnight. if this does not work you could try braining the pinky. this is when you split the front of the head of the pink so to open up the brain cavity. you could also try putting a little bit of chick or quail down on the pinky. i hope between all of us we could help getting your baby to eat. and a side note, you are better to get advise from people with experience rather than a "petstore expert"...alot of pet stores think a snake is a snake and they all require the same care. good luck and i hope you get him chowin soon.

[jessicalb]

Hey Rick and Hopp, he is eating well now, but thanks so much for the generous advice!

I am a very happy snake mom! :)

[Naagas]

Congrats on getting your baby to eat!

I know the feeling of getting a snake to let you watch it eat for the first time. Absolutely thrilling :-))