PETA

[Drizzt80]

I don't know if this was an old episode or new, but if you subscribe to Showtime you HAVE to watch Penn and Teller's Bull**** episode about Peta. I just got done watching it, and it puts their 'terrorist' activities in a whole new light. I am literally at a loss for words to describe what I watched on this program!!! Find a way to check it out if you haven't seen it already.

D80

[DAND]

People

Eating

Tasty

Animals

[leia]

Hehe.

I don't have Showtime, so I won't see that.

I appreciate their principles, but I think they are kinda extremist nuts! I love animals and it upsets me to even think of mistreatment and I don't eat meat, but they take things way too far. But I am not going to prevent my animals from eating meat! I do not think it is cruel at all for my cat or snake to eat an animal, especially since they will catch and kill it themselves if given the opertunity.

I am not going to dedicate my life to trying to change the world and change society into an unrealistic ideal.....but I'll do the best I can with my life and trying to make those around me compassionate as well.

[MegF.]

It wouldn't matter if you objected to your cat or snake eating meat. The fact is, they won't survive without it. They're not vegetarians. I watched Animal Precinct one week and some idiot woman had tried to make her cats vegetarians. They all were blind, and some had permanent heart damage. Unbelievable!

[tyretosmom]

I love that show and it really showed what Hippocrates they can be.

[Amanda E]

My step-dad is a vegan and decided to make his new dog vegan too. He bought a fairly small vegan bag of dog food for a ton of money and then the dog wouldn't touch it. I thought it was hillarious.

[Taceas]

I personally can't understand how people don't eat meat. It's a basic necessity of life that you need protein, fats, minerals, amino acids..everything meat provides. Some of that you simply can't get through tofu and supplements alone. Just cause its in a vitamin doesn't mean your body uses it.

And about people trying to get their carnivorous pets to convert to Vegan, get a life folks! If you want a herbivorous pet, get a rabbit or a cow. =P

We have a variety of teeth styles that cater to our omnivorous diet. Incisors for cutting meat and vegetables, canines for shredding meat, bicuspids for crushing meat, and molars for vegetable and meat. If God had meant for us to be vegetarians, we'd walk on all fours, moo, and chew our cud. :D

So to all of you Vegan/vegetarian folks out there is it the fact that you don't like the texture of meat, the act of eating something that was formerly alive, or the whole bone-in-meat aspect?

I'm just pretty darn curious about it all. Not that I plan on eating bamboo for the rest of my life, it just perplexes me how people can swear off meat entirely. I'd go nuts and rob McDonalds for burgers in a week (and I hate McDonalds). =P

I once knew a girl who lived on my floor in college, she was so weird in her eating habits that the meat she ate could no resemble an animal at all. Couldn't have bones or be shaped like it came off of an animal. Ergo she ate chicken nuggets, hamburgers everyday. I guess she thought the meat in the grocery store was grown in the plastic wrapped containers.

For me, I know where my food comes from...my backyard. I either raise my own food or hunt it.

Anyway, no disrespect meant by this post. I'm just curious after seeing the latest display of an apparent Vegan at the grocery store over the weekend. This young woman was cursing at the people buying meat, myself included, about how "evil" we were for killing these poor animals laid out before us. I told her I didn't kill 'em, but if cannibalism was legal, I'd go get my gun and be right back. She got this lovely scared "deer in the headlight" look to her all of a sudden. I was subsequently applauded by the rest of "my kind". :bowdown:

And speaking of vegetables, I was given a rather large bag of collard greens. Anyone have any good and tasty recipes for them? My cookbooks only say to sauté with oil. =Þ

[Chip]

Is the episode pro or anti PETA? I loathe the group, and can point you to quotes on their own website that their own supporters can't back up. I can guarantee you this: if they had their way, you could not own your corns! Please let us know when this will be replayed.

[MegF.]

If they had their way, no animal would be a pet. That includes dogs, cats, and any other animal.

[dara]

I'm a vegan at the moment, but I've been various stages of vegetarian my whole life (no red meat since age 5, no birds since 18, I'm 23 now). But I still wear leather shoes, my watch is leather, my belt is leather. I know that some people are vegetarians because they don't like the idea of killing animals. Clearly that isn't me. I just honestly think that my system feels better if I don't have any animal products in me. I love being a vegetarian, and my friends love it too, because I can go to any restaurant, anywhere, and find something to eat. I can eat at BBQ restaurants, I can eat at sushi places, I can eat anywhere, enjoy my food, and not care if someone orders a big juicy red steak. The only thing I've ever had trouble with personally is eating the whole animal, like back when I was eating seafood I didn't like having the entire, say, crab, on my plate, but having the legs was fine, didn't bother me at all. I don't like the idea of killing an animal solely for sport, but my leather shoes last longer than any canvas or plastic ones ever will. In fact, the only reason that I can think of against people eating beef has nothing to do with the rights of cows- I object to the slash-and-burn of the rainforests to make room for cows to graze. No one has ever had a problem, or called me hypocritical, I don't preach to others about their eating habits or anything like that.

And on a somewhat related note, don't get me started on PETA. They have such a narrow-minded tunnel vision of what they think is right that they are willing to make sacrifices that are even worse. For example, they would rather see animals die, culled out of a herd, than be taken out of an overcrowded African game preserve. But there, I've started. So I'm done.

dara

[Drizzt80]

It was very very anti-PETA, and I loved watching every second of it! I was just at a loss for words for how 'two-faced' they are etc. Their sense of logic is so warped that I can't even fathom it! One stat Penn and Teller gave was that PETA rescued 2100 some dogs during the course of the year. They had a disbursement on their tax records (as a non-profit they are public record) for a huge freezer). In doing research, the only purpose for the size freezer they ordered would be to hang sides of beef (obviously not the case) or as a morgue. Turns out, of those 2100 some dogs they 'saved', PETA euthanized over 2/3rd's of them!!! Talk about letting animals have their own rights!

D80
PS. As for a reshowing, I don't know, but would assume you could find information at the ShowTime web site. Maybe I'll check into it, as I would love to tape the episode!

[Chip]

I was afraid I wouldn't ever be able to watch them again. Well, I could just watch the one that never speaks, who I assume is "Teller." :p

[MegF.]

You can't even hope to understand a group that would poison or kill a hunting dog because they're against hunting. Go figure. It's the sort of logic the anti-abortionist's use when they bomb a clinic and kill an expectant mother...

[ronlina]

Originally posted by Taceas
I personally can't understand how people don't eat meat. It's a basic necessity of life that you need protein, fats, minerals, amino acids..everything meat provides. Some of that you simply can't get through tofu and supplements alone. Just cause its in a vitamin doesn't mean your body uses it.



Eh, nothing against eating meat (as I do that myself). But aside from the lack of vitamin B 12 in most vegetables (expecting seaweed and some algae) that humans need, any protien, minerals, and amino acids a human needs can be found in various beans, veggies (such as kale or broccoli, and many many other veggies) -totally lacking animal diet. In 'caveman' days it was certaintly necessary to get fat and B 12 from meat, but seeing as we're at least in countries that are rich enough to allow us computer use, we usually can get that from somewhere else and often eat too much meat. More than anything, fresh fruits, vegtables, and grains are to be the primary source of our diet. We really need very small portions with the typical diet of modern countries and preservatives in meat. Humans even have a longer digestive track (like plant eaters) than carnivorous animals do. I know that US slaughterhouses misfeed cows (feed them grains instead of greens, maybe to fatten them up better?) and use so many antibiotics that when humans need antibiotics they are often too used to them for them to work. In general vegetarians are healthier in all aspects, live longer and with less complications than the typical meat-eater.

just wanted to throw all that out there...

oh yeah, and peta. they have seemingly innocent intentions, some of which i totally agree with.

but they're a bunch of friggin psychos, man.

[MegF.]

That is not entirely true. There are meat based amino acids that are not found in any plant and are necessary for your body's health. Most vegetarians will drink milk or eat cheese and can receive the amino's from there, but vegans do not eat any of it. When I talked to a few vegans they say they take supplements, but they would need animal based proteins in the supplements, so it's defeating the purpose.

[Taceas]

Thanks for the info guys. I appreciate it.

Right now I'm in a seemingly new to me "no red meat mood". And I loved steaks. But the last few I've had didn't agree with me and I found it mundane to eat them. I still eat hamburgers and stew meat or stir fry..just no large plates of steaks like usual. It's a strange new feeling for me. =/

But as for the antibiotic issue I agree wholeheartedly. I think we're overusing the hell out of them. And I won't take them unless absolutely necessary. I don't even use antibacterial soap or all of those chinsy products for kitchen use. I use simple soap and water, and if I don't feel that works..bleach water works just as well.

I've seen the truth in my own family with children. My mom never used any of that antibacterial stuff when I was growing up and the only allergies I have are to seasonal pollen. But my young neices and nephews who's mothers fretted about the dreaded germs and carried Lysol in their pockets and sprayed everything..those kids are allergic to everything from food, pets, pollen, and uncooked veggies and fruits. And theyr'e not from the same family. So something has to be the reason in my opinion. They live on opposite sides of the country. Maybe some germs aren't as bad as we think they are. If you don't play regular games of "cowboys and indians" with your immune system, it doesn't know how to act when it gets something legitimate to play with.

Most of the food I buy I try to buy organic if I can. I prefer not to eat pesticides and artificial fertilizers. My eggs come from cage free birds (hope to raise my own chickens again), my milk is from farm cows not mass-milked cows, and my veggies are all organic. Sure I pay more, but I like to think I'm supporting family farmers who like me, care what people eat. =)

[ronlina]

Originally posted by MegF.
That is not entirely true. There are meat based amino acids that are not found in any plant and are necessary for your body's health. Most vegetarians will drink milk or eat cheese and can receive the amino's from there, but vegans do not eat any of it. When I talked to a few vegans they say they take supplements, but they would need animal based proteins in the supplements, so it's defeating the purpose.

I was referring to the actual meat itself, not things such as eggs, cream, and cheese. :)

the scientific biochem makeup of amino acids can be found here --> http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/aminoacids/

but in this website:

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80129e/80129E03.htm

There is information about protien and amino acids intake as represented in non-meat foods. There are many different kinds of amino acids, but milk has all 8 (essential) amino acids. As a source of calcium, milk isn't as great, because milk is mostly protien.


Here:
http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

...is a link to a website that sort of has a debate going on, you see both sides of the "nutrition story" and if you don't feel like researching things yourself you can probably just pick out whatever end of the opinion you want.

It's not like meat is deadly, but I'm sure that if they were raised on single farms rather than mass bred and slaughtered at one time (with all the hormone injections present, misfeeding the animals,etc.) - it would be much healthier to eat it. I think there are Kosher meats out there that were rasied and killed in "clean" envioronments, but meat still isn't needed as much in the diet as i think many people eat.

[MegF.]

I think it needs to be back to the 'ol adage, everything in moderation. I eat mostly chicken and fish, and very little red meat. I do like a good steak now and then though! I also hunt so I mix my store bought stuff with dove, quail, pheasant, and occasionally, venison. I don't care if milk doesn't give me too much calcium......I LOVE it!! :cheers: <-------- That's milk in there, not beer!

[scottrussell]

It was very very anti-PETA, and I loved watching every second of it! I was just at a loss for words for how 'two-faced' they are etc. Their sense of logic is so warped that I can't even fathom it! One stat Penn and Teller gave was that PETA rescued 2100 some dogs during the course of the year. They had a disbursement on their tax records (as a non-profit they are public record) for a huge freezer). In doing research, the only purpose for the size freezer they ordered would be to hang sides of beef (obviously not the case) or as a morgue. Turns out, of those 2100 some dogs they 'saved', PETA euthanized over 2/3rd's of them!!! Talk about letting animals have their own rights!




ok i know this post is like 3 years old but i was really bored and found that...

anyway i'm just as against factory farming as i am of PETA. when you have websites saying those things about peta (like petakillsanimals.com or whatever) you'll notice that that organization is heavily funded by the meat industry. so it's just propaganda on top of other propaganda and it's all about money. there goes a saying like "look for the person that benefits"

[Chip]

Please, oh please, show me documentation that shows that PeTA is given finances in any way by the meat industry! I need this information (I live in Asheville,NC, practically the headquarters) :cheers:

PS, check out MatthewScully.com he was a speech writer for Bush and did amazing undercover work about factory farms. And is very anti-PeTA.

[carol]

Well Misty, I can only give you one vegetarians point of view.... My niece has been a vegetarian since she was 5 or 6 years old, she'll be 11 next month. As soon as she realized that the meat she ate was an animal she never ate meat again. She gave up a lot of things she really liked because she just felt it was wrong. The interesting thing is neither parent is a vegetarian, and she didn't really grow up with animals/pets around. I thought it was a phase but she seems pretty devout.

The funniest incident that really explains my mother in a nutshell was when my niece was spending sometime with us. I was telling my mom I had to stock up on different vegetarian items. My mom, with a perfectly straight face, asked why I just didn't buy some chicken. :shrugs: Uh..... mom, chicken is meat last time I checked... :)

[scottrussell]

Please, oh please, show me documentation that shows that PeTA is given finances in any way by the meat industry! I need this information (I live in Asheville,NC, practically the headquarters) :cheers:

PS, check out MatthewScully.com he was a speech writer for Bush and did amazing undercover work about factory farms. And is very anti-PeTA.


peta is NOT given finances by the meat industry. what i was saying was websites like petakillsanimals.com which try to make peta look bad are funded by the meat industry. i don't think that either are right, but i am more opposed to people making propaganda FOR meat than the people making propaganda against it.

[ronlina]

The last time I posted to this thread was two years ago, when I still ate meat.

I'm a vegetarian now. My views are still the same. I don't like PETA, but I don't know much about petakillsanimals.com either. I doubt that PETA is fueled by the meat industry, but I don't like a lot of PETA's tactics that make it a lot harder for people, for one, to accept not eating meat, and two, to give a damn. They think shock value will get to people beyond making them feel bad for the piggies when really, for the most part, they just piss people off and don't help their cause, making people not trust them or what they're trying to achieve in the first place.

I especially don't like the adverts. for children I've seen about that they have, telling them their momy and daddy are horrible for giving them meat. Why not educate people about their options instead of freaking out a six year old? It just makes me mad.

[Tyger9791]

I dont like PETA either...they're too extremist, they're too violent and they're too much about the shock value...and i really dont like how many people associate all vegans or vegetarians with PETA. i have a lot of friends who are vegetarian, more power to them. but they dont like PETA at all.

my gf is vegetarian...mostly. she cant eat red meat. for whatever reason, her body just cant digest it. it makes her very ill. what is really annoying though is ignorant people at restaurants when my gf says that she cant eat red meat and asks for fish, tofu or chicken or just a meal made up of sides of veggies. they immediately assume that she's vegan or vegetarian and will go on a rant about how red meat is good for you or go on about PETA. and she'll say "i cant digest it. it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs." and the waiter won't believe her or he does and gets very embarrassed, either way, they lose their tip. i mean how rude is it to question someone's food preference?

[curiousL]

Interesting....hhhmmm....

[Drizzt80]

. . .which try to make peta look bad are funded by the meat industry. i don't think that either are right, but i am more opposed to people making propaganda FOR meat than the people making propaganda against it.

Interesting choice of words . . . "try to make peta look bad" . . . I guess you either love 'em or hate 'em. I think they've done a might fine job making themselves look bad. As for their funding to fight peta (which lies), what's it matter if it's from meat factories? If it's true information you can't refute it can you?

D80

[Drizzt80]

They think shock value will get to people beyond making them feel bad for the piggies when really, for the most part, they just piss people off and don't help their cause, making people not trust them or what they're trying to achieve in the first place.
Quite honestly they're banking on the reality that more and more people accept what they see in media images as the truth, and they begin following the herd without thinking freely for themselves.

As for vegetarians, I don't understand how there are different 'levels' or 'types' of vegetarianism. You either are or you aren't regardless of your reasons . . . hence, I don't think you can be a true vegetarian based on the amount of processing that goes into just about every product consumed in today's world, and the affect it has on animals. I also don't buy the argument that vegetables (by themselves!) are better for you health-wise . . . where's the meat based protein come from?

D80

[princess]

I eat a broad and varied diet and am interested in optimising my nutritional intake therefor I stick to lean chicken and oilier fish for much of my animal flesh based protein intake. At the school where I teach we have our lunch provided so I just eat whatever it is we're having but usually load up on vedge and salads if I can -but at home I rarely will have a large portion of meat when I'm doing the shopping and cooking.

I read recently that the body in its efforts to process the animal flesh based protein leaches calcium from your system faster than you can restock it and people who eat a lot of meat can't actually replenish/keep up with their calcium needs and are lining themselves up for osteoporosis and the like later in life.

It's a phenomenon being witnessed in wealthier and developed countries where meat is regularly eaten in excess and with the popularity of lowcarb/high protein diets in the last few decades we will be seeing much more of it manifesting just around the corner.

[cowboyman13]

I eat a broad and varied diet and am interested in optimising my nutritional intake therefor I stick to lean chicken and oilier fish for much of my animal flesh based protein intake. At the school where I teach we have our lunch provided so I just eat whatever it is we're having but usually load up on vedge and salads if I can -but at home I rarely will have a large portion of meat when I'm doing the shopping and cooking.

I read recently that the body in its efforts to process the animal flesh based protein leaches calcium from your system faster than you can restock it and people who eat a lot of meat can't actually replenish/keep up with their calcium needs and are lining themselves up for osteoporosis and the like later in life.

It's a phenomenon being witnessed in wealthier and developed countries where meat is regularly eaten in excess and with the popularity of lowcarb/high protein diets in the last few decades we will be seeing much more of it manifesting just around the corner.

That is very intresting i had never heard that. I can see where that would be a factor for someone who was on a diet like the high protein diet where they weren't getting a balanced diet.

I don't think that is a major factor for most of us meat eaters. Unlike vegetarians or those dieting specifically on meat. Most people who consume meat do get a well balanced diet. They are not restricted to just vegetables or meat. They eat both as well as Dairy products which is where most people get their Calcium intake any ways. Now i don't know any people who are on strict vegetable only diets because where i grew up Meat and Potatoes are your main staple at dinner and can be found at every meal. So i don't know if Cheese or milk which is all so from animals is apart of their diet or not. But i cant remember off the top of my head any veggies high in calcium. So its seems that no matter your choice you are getting deprived either way.

Princess i realize you weren't lobbying for Vegetarians or saying anything bad about people who eat meat or not. It just seemed like a good point you made. I wanted to show how both sides of that story could go.

[lefty_mussolini]

Just thought I would throw in my $.02
I know many healthy people. Some that eat all kinds of meat, some that don't eat red meat, some that only eat fish, some that are vegatarians (no meat but still eat dairy), and a couple that are vegans (no animal products at all including gelatin and the like.)
I also know many unhealthy people. Some that eat all kinds of meat, some that don't eat red meat, some that only eat fish, some that are vegatarians (no meat but still eat dairy), and a couple that are vegans (no animal products at all including gelatin and the like.)
See what I'm saying. No matter what dietary restrictions you choose for yourself, there are ways to be healthy. A big problem with some vegatarians is that they know nothing about nutrition. They need to study up. It's like jumping in and buying a reticulated python without studying alot first and figuring out what you are getting into. You have to know how to make up for the things that you are not getting from meat. The healthiest most physically fit and nutrition cautious person I know is my roommate, who is a vegan. But he didn't just stop eating meat. He did his homework.
The same can be said about the meat eaters. Whereas the vegatarians have to worry about lack of essential dietary components, meat eaters should keep an eye on saturated fat and cholesterol intake.
As far as PETA goes... I know many people. Some that eat all kinds of meat, some that don't eat red meat, some that only eat fish, some that are vegatarians (no meat but still eat dairy), and a couple that are vegans (no animal products at all including gelatin and the like.) All of them dislike PETA. :grin01:

[Taceas]

I agree, no matter what you eat, you must be informed about what it is you're eating.

I eat meat and vegetables, and thoroughly enjoy both. Although I can't imagine being a strict carnivore or vegetarian. I tried the Atkins thing for a couple of months, and while I did lose a considerable amount of weight, it was an extremely boring diet. I never got so sick of meat/eggs/cheese in all my born days. I craved salads and carrots with a passion.

I love steak, but I do see the health risks associated with it (whatever the 'risk of the month' is) so I try to limit the amount I cook at home. The bulk of our meat is chicken or fish, with some venison/goat/lamb added in occasionally.

But my main crises is that much of the salmon here for sale locally, is farmed with color added. I can't seem to find wild caught salmon that is natural colored.

Why do they have to add artificial colors to something to make it more appealing? I just don't get it.

They spray oranges to make them more orange, they slather wax on cucumbers to the point I have to literally wash them in soap and water twice just to get most of it off before eating them.

And now all that hubbub about adding carbon monoxide to meat in those hermetically sealed containers to preserve color. When color is the #1 indicator most people look for when selecting meat based on perceived freshness. The more I become educated, the more I think about buying more land and raising my own cattle.

Its no wonder more people are shunning meat these days, even I have serious qualms about buying meat at the store because its something I'd have a hard time feeding to my dog let alone myself. People want to be informed about where their meat comes from I think, at least I know I do.

However, PETA can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. They're not worthy of my attention span. They're all on the shock value of things. And the moment they pass out a pamphlet to my child showing pictures of where their chicken nuggets came from, is the moment I'll have an assault and battery charge against me. I wish people would mind their own business. If they don't like how animals are treated, that's fine...work on getting legislation created to change it. But don't harass people as they're going to KFC for lunch.

[ronlina]

As for vegetarians, I don't understand how there are different 'levels' or 'types' of vegetarianism. You either are or you aren't regardless of your reasons . . . hence, I don't think you can be a true vegetarian based on the amount of processing that goes into just about every product consumed in today's world, and the affect it has on animals. I also don't buy the argument that vegetables (by themselves!) are better for you health-wise . . . where's the meat based protein come from?

D80

You can't be a true vegetarian based on the processing that goes on in non-meat foods? That's kind of an ignorant thing to say - and I don't get the impression that you are. All that you have to do to 'be'a vegetarian is to not eat meat. Plain and simple. You don't have to give two damns about the animals or envioronment, though many people do. I know someone who just plain doesnt like the taste of meat ((shrug)).

Vegetables by themselves are just as healthy for you as protien sources as meat protien sources are. The only deal vegetarians have (and I actually mean Vegans, who don't eat any animal -based products at all) are with vitamin B12 and sometimes the absorption with iron (the iron bit dealing mainly with women, who lose quite a bit with their monthlies).

Protien is not a meat-based thing. Protiens are made up of amino acids strung together, and these amino acids can be found in a range of plants. The only reason there are protiens in the animal to beginwith is because they have been absorbed and utilized by the body of the animal from the
plant sources that the animal ate in the first place.

Meat source protien is just concentrated protien because the muscle tissue that we eat is the muscle and skin tissue developed by the animal body's processed amino acids.

Humans need a full protien - a full string of the different amino acids. Some of these are made by our bodies on their own, and the others - the essential amino acids are needed to finish the string. These can be obtained from rice, peanutbutter/other nuts, different grains, and green leafy veggies.

Also, they can be obtained from soy products, which I believe is the only plant source for a full string of amino acids, which is why vegetarians use them so much.

The issue with meat is - it's concentrated protien. So, once you eat some, you've filled up your body's need for protien for a while, however in this culture we have come to eat meat on a constant basis, which is not really healthy. The body has a balance of all kinds of nutrients and having too much of one thing for too long will upset that balance - plain and simple.

It doesn't matter to me who eats meat or who doesn't - it's just that, personally, I don't. Without me even offering up info I get people being angry at me for what I do and don't eat, and I really don't get it. Why do they care?

In any case, eating soley vegetables is not unhealthy and all of the things you need can be gotten from then, aside from vitamin b12 which can be taken from pills or milk or cheese or fun things like that.

[zwyatt]

The more I become educated, the more I think about buying more land and raising my own cattle.

Interesting...I just sat through a lecture on beef cattle production and before it was even over I had the same exact thought going through my head. As far as raising my own goes, I would just assume raise my own everything.


The fact of the matter is that having a diet containing animal products makes it easier to achieve a healthy, balanced diet than plant products alone. The amino acid profile of animals is more complete and closer to meeting our needs than plants. And, yes, vitamin B12 can't be obtained in adequate amounts from a solely plant based diet.

Are these the reasons why I eat meat?

No. I eat meat because I like it. It tastes good and it's what I've always done. This alone isn't my reasoning. I just don't find it inherently evil to consume animals.
Am I an animal lover? Yes. Does my blood boil when I see/read stories of animal abuse, poaching, etc.? Yes.

Everyone draws their lines somewhere. Often times one person can't see any logical reason for why the person next to them would draw the line where they did. I'm just as guilty on this one. I often wonder how people can justify doing one thing, but then do something else that, to me, seems just as bad.
Why be vegetarian, but not have a problem with keeping animals in captivity in glass aquariums? I know this may be a stretch, but it is something I've wondered before.

If I'm going to go so far as to not eat meat (or other animal products) because I think it is wrong, then there are a multitude of other things that I would have to consider taking a stance against. Personally, I couldn't draw the line at consuming meat.

Animals are used for traction, pulling, racing, show...and on and on. Why should animals be subjected pulling humans around? Why should they be ridden and whipped so that humans can win money and trophies? Wouldn't all the domesticated animals of the world be much happier in the wild? Or at least be free of the constraints/work that humans put on and expect of them?

Everyone walks a tight rope when determining where they draw their lines. Nothing is black and white. Everything is gray.


Why must we humans have a conscious? I don't see or hear of any coyotes having major moral crises over whether or not it's okay to kill and eat a beef cow out in a pasture.

Who's out there lobbying for the rights of plants? They didn't get a say in their domestication. Plants are living things. We produce them and grow them up. Then, we kill them so that we can eat them. I guess a plants life means less because it isn't sentient and lacks a personality.

I'm not trying to talk from some moral high-ground. I'm just saying that everything is a two-way street depending on what perspective it's viewed from and depending on who is doing the viewing.

[MegF.]

Much of the cattle produced for meat is left to run wild in fields and are fed natural grass and no other products. I've worked my share of cattle ranches and that's true of the ones that I worked for. What happens once it leaves us...who knows. I also hunt and eat what I hunt. I feel it's a far more honest way to get your meat as you know how it got there and what it took to get it. Hunting also gives one a respect for the animal you kill as well as creating a balance in nature. I also spent time on a farm where if you wanted meat, you raised your own. I got canines in my mouth and eyes in the front of my head....we were designed as meat eaters. It doesn't mean I don't respect a vegetarian's point of view, but I hate it when people malign me because I eat meat.

[eddie1976]

As for vegetarians, I don't understand how there are different 'levels' or 'types' of vegetarianism. You either are or you aren't regardless of your reasons . . .

D80

I had to laugh when I saw this. There was an episode of the simpsons a couple weeks ago with this topic.
His line was "I am a level nine vegan, I eat nothing that casts a shadow."
Just that this was appropriate. :sidestep:

[TandJ]

I just figured we people were omnivoires and we should really pay close attention to what we eat in moderation. I suppose if we were meant to be vegatarians we would have teeth like a cow.. I suppose if we were meant to be strickly carnvoires we would have teeth more like a shark. Perhaps we have ended up somewheres inbetween as omnivoires.. Sure you can argue that a dog might have some sharp canine teeth and some flat molar's like we do, but I can get my pooch to eat some vegies or even water melon rinds, can also get one of our kitties to eat peas and corn. Ah well, who are we really going to please here? No one but ourselves, and the arguement or words thrown around becomes rather meek, and pointless!

Ah well. C'est LA Vie..

Regards.. T of T and J

[lefty_mussolini]

I just figured we people were omnivoires and we should really pay close attention to what we eat in moderation. I suppose if we were meant to be vegatarians we would have teeth like a cow.. I suppose if we were meant to be strickly carnvoires we would have teeth more like a shark. Perhaps we have ended up somewheres inbetween as omnivoires.. Sure you can argue that a dog might have some sharp canine teeth and some flat molar's like we do, but I can get my pooch to eat some vegies or even water melon rinds, can also get one of our kitties to eat peas and corn. Ah well, who are we really going to please here? No one but ourselves, and the arguement or words thrown around becomes rather meek, and pointless!

Ah well. C'est LA Vie..

Regards.. T of T and J
I agree completely Tim.

[scottrussell]

these are all valid points. i'm not a huge fan of peta either but im not sure if their use of shock value is completely inappropriate on their part. i mean the videos of seals being skinned alive, and sheep being beaten with a club are shocking, but you should be more angry at the fact that people are doing discusting stuff like that, not that peta is using it to pull at your heart strings.

[scottrussell]

and to add to that, i don't dislike peta because they try to expose how gross factory farming can be, but all of the extra add-ons they want to convince you on which are just plain stupid. like not being able to have pets, or that goldfish have feelings and you shouldn't keep them in aquariums. i have no problem if an animal dies, i believe in the food chain but for me it seems pretty wrong the way they raise animals for food.

[princess]

i have no problem if an animal dies, i believe in the food chain but for me it seems pretty wrong the way they raise animals for food.


This is why I started breeding my own mice in part...then I realised how much time, effort and money went into it and went back to the 'easier' option of buying bulk frozen. I'm sure the feeder mice I buy didn't have a very interesting or stimulated life whereas my feeder breeders lived like pets until their very quick and unanticipated death...I felt better about it being that way.

[scottrussell]

yeah but even mice bred in racks or wherever were probably still better off than the animals we eat due to what they are fed and all the hormones pumped into them; a lot of the time they are so obese and messed up from growing so quickly they can't even walk.

[zwyatt]

a lot of the time they are so obese and messed up from growing so quickly they can't even walk.

In my estimation, this sort of scenario is the absolute extreme and by all means not the standard. There are 900,000 some beef cattle producers in the US alone and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a even a small handful that meet your criteria.
PETA or anyone else who is lobbying against this industry are going to find the most extreme, exxagerated situations in order to best make their case. Even if those situations are only present in a fraction of a percent of farms in the US, which still doesn't make it acceptable (but it's not as widespread as they would like you to believe).

it seems pretty wrong the way they raise animals for food.
Who exactly is "they"? And just how are they raising animals? You don't actually have to answer these questions here. They are just questions that I think you should stop and ask yourself.
Many people see one 15 second clip of a cow that has a hard time standing or a chicken that gets kicked and they begin to make sweeping generalizations about anyone and everyone who has ever raised cows or chickens. This type of mindset, as much as anything else, is what complicates this situation.

[scottrussell]

i was kinda more referring to poultry than cattle. but i hope your right that's it's not as widespread as peta says. my girlfriend took a tour to a chicken factory/farm whatever in VA a few years ago and she said it wasn't really far off from what people have said about them...7 chickens being held per cage and having their beaks cut off so they can't hurt eachother.

[King21]

Okay I know this thread is kinda old but whatever...

I once saw a show a while back about some PETA people who had traved up into the arctic to try to save some baby seals from poachers. They wanted to make the seal hide "unusable" so that they would not be desired by hunters. What they did was pour red paint all over the baby seals to mess up thier hides.

Well, being the stupid idiots that they are, the PETA morons didn't think enough about camelflauge. The color of the seals gave them camelflauge protection against the rocks.

Now that they were colored red, they were immediately visable to the hungry polar bears and walruses and whatever other predators they have. The baby seals wear all massacred and eaten within a couple hours!

this just goes to show that the people of PETA are really just stupid morons whoi could really care less about the well beaing of animals. They are just a bunch of posers trying to look like they care.

[Drizzt80]

Okay I know this thread is kinda old but whatever...

I once saw a show a while back about some PETA people who had traved up into the arctic to try to save some baby seals from poachers. They wanted to make the seal hide "unusable" so that they would not be desired by hunters. What they did was pour red paint all over the baby seals to mess up thier hides.

Well, being the stupid idiots that they are, the PETA morons didn't think enough about camelflauge. The color of the seals gave them camelflauge protection against the rocks.

Now that they were colored red, they were immediately visable to the hungry polar bears and walruses and whatever other predators they have. The baby seals wear all massacred and eaten within a couple hours!

this just goes to show that the people of PETA are really just stupid morons whoi could really care less about the well beaing of animals. They are just a bunch of posers trying to look like they care.

Could you find, or post, a link to this?! That would be great information to archive.

D80

[King21]

Could you find, or post, a link to this?! That would be great information to archive.

D80I wish I had the info on where this was from. I only recall readin about it or possibly seeing it on the news. It was a couple of years ago, but I will try to find it.

[King21]

Here is a quote I found on a website about the stupidity of PETA: "On a side note, I'm sure you know these "people" will spray paint anybody who wears fur, destroying the clothing. Well, some people got the bright idea to "go right to the source" so to speak. They decided to start spray painting the baby seals directly, so the seal hunters wouldn't go after them. They got that part of the plan right. The bad news is a baby seal needs that white coat to make it invisible to polar bears. They become easy to see with a large stripe of bright red paint on them, and polar bears know how tasty baby seal is. So the animal is directly doomed to death by their actions instead of having a fighting chance to grow up. So much for well thought out plans."

And here is that web site:
http://www.theconservativezone.com/2003/12/i_dont_think_these_people_are.html

This is just one of many sites about this.

[Chip]

I never doubted the sincerity of PeTA members. I think they mean well, I'm just against pretty much everything that they stand for. I'd love to see factory farming become more humane, pets better cared for, dogfighting stopped, and people become more responsible about spaying/neutering pets they don't intend to breed. I think most everyone in America would agree on that. But these people don't want you to be allowed to eat meat, wear leather, or even own pets! Yikes. I can back that up with quotes from their nut-job president.

[King21]

I never doubted the sincerity of PeTA members. I think they mean well, I'm just against pretty much everything that they stand for. I'd love to see factory farming become more humane, pets better cared for, dogfighting stopped, and people become more responsible about spaying/neutering pets they don't intend to breed. I think most everyone in America would agree on that. But these people don't want you to be allowed to eat meat, wear leather, or even own pets! Yikes. I can back that up with quotes from their nut-job president.I agree with you. PETA has good ideas about the treatment of animals, but that is where the good stops. They have crazy and psychotic ways of trying to get thier message across. They want to take away the freedoms of the people that makes this country so great!