Finally got my corn to eat by feeding live, is this really such a bad thing?

[xStaticSnow]

Well I got Ziggy, my 7 year old corn snake about a month and a half ago, maybe a little more. When I got him his owner said he much preferred live mice, but seeing as she gave me a mostly empty box of frozen mice along with the snake, I assumed he would also take F/T.

I tried everything I could to get him to eat. Wiggled it around, brained it, slit it, left it overnight, scented it with tuna water, and then chicken broth.. Finally a friend of mine who has snakes tried assist feeding, by gently holding his head and putting him nose to nose with the mouse. He refused to open his mouth.

Once he did decide to bite the thawed mouse a few times, but after realizing it was dead he lost all interest. I really wouldn't have been that nervous except for the fact that he is so skinny! You can distinctly see his spine along the length of his body and his jaws stick out a great deal from where his neck begins. It seems alarming to me, but then again I could be worrying too much..

I've had him a little over 6 weeks like I said, but I've only attempted to feed F/T 3 times. The first week I didn't try to feed him, then he refused the second week, the third week he went into blue and had a bad shed, the fourth week he refused, the fifth week he refused, and the sixth week he accepted a small live mouse immediately, killing it literally within seconds. 2 days later he pooped and now he seems as happy as can be.

I keep hearing and reading insistent opinions that feeding live is a bad thing. I understand the mice can bite but my snake was raised on live mice and it's obviously his preference. I think I would rather just supply a live mouse every week than poke and prod and worry when he refuses to take a frozen one..

Is this reasonable or are there major risks which would make it a better option to continue trying to feed frozen? Maybe I should feed him live until he gets some weight on him and then try to switch over to frozen? I'm not sure.. but feeding day is tomorrow and I was planning on heading back to the pet store for another feeder.

thanks guys

[toxiclight]

There are risks to live feeding. They are well delineated in multiple threads, and with a quick search you should be able to find them without problem. Most important is there is danger to the snake if the mouse bites, etc.

However...some snakes are harder than others to swap over. I have no direct experience with trying to swap a live-only feeder to an f/t feeder. Sounds like you've tried most of the recommendations, and if your snake was getting skinny to the point that you were worried about him, getting food in him was pretty important (IMO)

I think your plan is appropriate...feeding live until he's regained what he lost and then attempting the switch again. I would observe the feeding to make sure nothing adverse happens to your snake :)

One other suggestion: freshly killed mice can sometimes entice a finicky eater to swap.

[xStaticSnow]

There are risks to live feeding. They are well delineated in multiple threads, and with a quick search you should be able to find them without problem. Most important is there is danger to the snake if the mouse bites, etc.

However...some snakes are harder than others to swap over. I have no direct experience with trying to swap a live-only feeder to an f/t feeder. Sounds like you've tried most of the recommendations, and if your snake was getting skinny to the point that you were worried about him, getting food in him was pretty important (IMO)

I think your plan is appropriate...feeding live until he's regained what he lost and then attempting the switch again. I would observe the feeding to make sure nothing adverse happens to your snake :)

One other suggestion: freshly killed mice can sometimes entice a finicky eater to swap.

Thanks!
Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't know there were risks. I have read the threads on the risks of feeding live but mostly I'm just finding there id a risk of getting bitten. To me it seems like a snake which has eaten live all its life has a better chance of avoiding a bite as it has experience on how to kill a mouse properly.
Other than that I haven't found anything that's really stuck with me.. more like scattered concerns and rare accidents involving live prey

I also realize I know so much less than many people on this forum, which is why I have made this thread asking directly for the pros and cons of feeding live to be weighted and assessed (:

[BloodyBaroness]

I also realize I know so much less than many people on this forum, which is why I have made this thread asking directly for the pros and cons of feeding live to be weighted and assessed (:

Those "pros and cons" have been very well outlined in other threads.

It does not matter if the snake has eaten live it's entire life or not. There is always the chance you end up with things like the following.

Pardon me while I get graphic.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1390/4725853770_4af627fec8.jpg

http://www.mccarthyboas.com/BoaWithRatBites00.JPG

http://redtailboafaq.com/pictures/bite.jpg

[starsevol]

I think it is admirable that you want to switch over to f/t and I would do so as soon as possible. While I don't see live feeding as a horrible thing if it is the only way the snake will eat, I think that fresh killed (humanely killed for the mouse), is a better way to go. A dead mouse can't bite.
I do however have a really really low opinion of someone who feeds live FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL......

[Outcast]

One quick question. How are you thawing the mouse out?

The reason I ask, is that most of the time I talk to someone who feeds live, they say that their snake won't eat frozen, and then I find out that they just sit the mouse out on the table and let it get to room temperature. Though 90% of the time they do not want to learn about the correct way to thaw the mouse/rat out, and decide they would rather keep feeding live and put their animals at risk...

Though I have gotten some to switch over. And once they thawed the mouse under hot water, instead of letting it come to room temperature, their snake ate it...

[Nanci]

Especially if, once thawed and 102F, you dry it with a blow dryer...

[AliCat37]

I would try offering a freshly killed mouse to your snake, that way it is already the right body temp as a live one. When I thaw out my mice I usually let them sit out and get to room temp :P But my snakes (aside from my ball python) aren't picky either. I prefer to warm the mice up with a hair dryer when I do thaw out in warm water, just so it's not a sopping wet mouse/rat. Also, you have not mentioned if you're feeding in the cage or outside of the cage? Many snakes will feel better about eating inside their cages.
When I used to feed my ball live I would hold the mouse over his head too, so that way the mouse didn't have a chance to run around or chew on him. Like BloodyBaroness showed, leaving live food with your snake can have bad consequences, but if he eats right away you should be fine. I'd still try switching him to prekilled after he gains some weight, if he accepts that then you can start moving onto f/t.
Good luck! :)

[ceduke]

Seriously, there are HUNDREDS of threads on this topic, a new one every five days or so. Pop "live feeding" into the search bar and you'll have DAYS of reading to do on the topic.

[Miqote]

Like others have said, there are lots of really good, long discussions where this has been gone over..

I can understand feeding live to a snake that is malnourished and won't eat anything else. I think if you NEED to feed live to get him to a healthy weight, it's okay, but then you should really focus all your efforts on getting him to switch. (From what I've read, they can go a long time without food, maybe it's just a matter of getting hungry enough.) You can also try fresh killed, instead of frozen. I've also read somewhere, for a really stubborn snake, they put a live mouse in a clear container, and then put the super warm, f/t mouse nearby, or wiggled it, and the movement of the live mouse "tricked" the snake into eating.

Good luck!!

[xStaticSnow]

WOW! Okay guys I get it! I really truly do. I want you to know I have a great amount of respect for the people here on this site, but I much admit I feel attacked on this thread.

BloodyBaroness: I am sorry but I do not appreciate those pictures. I obviously would never allow a mouse to know on my snake. He is fed in a separate container and I keep a better knife on hand, so if I suspect there is any chance that the mouse may be able to bite my snake while he is constricting it, I am prepared to slide the dull knife in between the mouth of the mouse and the snake's body. Those pictures are wayyy too graphic to post without a warning in my opinion and I did not expect that to appear on my screen as I was scrolling down. I'm not trying to be rude but I have seen others here complain about graphic posts when the poster is simply describing the death of a mouse using words.

For everyone else who gave respectful answers I appreciated this. I'm sorry if this thread is too repetitive, if it is that big of a deal I will not hold a grudge if it is deleted.

To answer the question about thawing, I know how to thaw a mouse! Please do not assume that someone who has not had thousands of posts on this specific site has no idea what they're doing. I've spent a decent amount of time reading suggestions and solutions that others have posted on this site.

My frozen mice come individuality packaged in small zip lock containers. I leave them in the bag so they say dry. I defrost them in warm water for about 10 minutes, then I dip their heads in much warmer water for just a few more seconds. My snake has shown interest in the thawed mice before. I believe I already posted this, but he has opened his mouth and bitten the mouse, but lost interest once he realized that the mouse is dead.

I have tried feeding frozen mice in the feeding bin, leaving them in the feeding bin, feeding in the viv with newspaper substrate, leaving it in the viv overnight, scenting the mouse, braining it, cutting it, wiggling it, covering his viv, and a smaller mouse then he would usually eat.

Today he took his second live mouse without a problem. I was right next to the feeding bin the entire time. Both times he has waited until he can grab the nose of the mice, constricts tightly and effectively killing the mouse faster than leaving them to suffocate in a closed container of eye and lung burning CO2.

All my post was asking was if feeding my malnourished snake a live mouse, which he much prefers, is as bad as so many people on the internet insist repeatedly.

I will attempt to feed a freshly killed mouse next time. I will try the method of breaking of dislocating its spine.. I could very well be completely wrong but I have a hunch he will be much less interested in a prey item which does not resist being eaten..

And lastly, I would never feed live for purposes of entertainment. I love all animals and hate to see them in pain. In the end I want to see my snake living a happy and healthy, stress-free life. Even though I would prefer not to put a mouse through 30 seconds of fear and pain, I will not ignore the fact that all animals need nourishment and in the past my snake has obviously not received adequate nourishment.

At least I care enough to make sure my adult snake was able to get out of his old home and into a new one where I am able to make more educated choices which will benefit his health.

Thanks for your time..

[AliCat37]

If he does end up grabbing a pre killed mouse hold onto the tail and keep moving it around for him. Hopefully that will trick him into constricting it and all!

But my opinion for feeding live is; if he's skinny because he won't eat f/t or prekilled, you don't really have much of a choice :)
I don't let the mice run around though, I do hold them by the tail above the snake.

[AliCat37]

Another thing you can do is "stun" the mouse. That way it's still alive but you'll have less of a chance for a bite, and perhaps that can help him move onto prekilled or f/t too because it won't fight as much.

[Lennycorn]

For everyone else who gave respectful answers I appreciated this. I'm sorry if this thread is too repetitive, if it is that big of a deal I will not hold a grudge if it is deleted.

To answer the question about thawing, I know how to thaw a mouse! Please do not assume that someone who has not had thousands of posts on this specific site has no idea what they're doing. I've spent a decent amount of time reading suggestions and solutions that others have posted on this site.
.

Yes, we see this and other topics repeated a lot. This is one of the ""hot" topics. But you seem willing to listen. That's a far cry from other thread that have been started.
The thing is..... Folks here like corns more than their owners. Captive snakes can't control their own "environment". They have to rely on their owners.
Take no offense from the replies. But they are to make a point that as been repeated time and time again on deaf ears.

[xStaticSnow]

I tried the holding onto the mouse thing when he decided to bite the mouse a few times! (: It seemed to work for about 2 seconds then he once again dropped the mouse and after that point he totally avoided the mouse. I felt like I had startled him when I did that and I was worried about injuring him by being too rough on his little teeth.

I can also try a stunned mouse. What is the best way to do that? I know some people use their finger to flick a pinky mouse in the head but I feel like this might not work for an adult mouse. Whacking it again the table or the wall? I worry it may do nothing more than injure the mouse but if other have had success with it I would try that too..

Thanks

[xStaticSnow]

Thanks for your post Lennycorn,

What you've said makes perfect sense to me. I only ask that those people who chose to post irritated or attacking posts are doing so much more harm than good. More people will be willing to listen to you if you remain calm every time you post. You are typing at a computer so you have time to think though what you are going to say. For those who are asking a genuine question, or are still getting oriented on this web site it can be a hurtful experience to be bashed for not knowing as much as someone who has 20+ years in reptile experience.. I don't think it is in anyone's best interest to have new members turned off by this forum and those posting in it.

[WingedSweetheart]

I think if your guy will only eat live then so be it. There isn't anything wrong with it. Just as long as you know to be there and watch over the feeding. Things can go wrong in an instance. It may be rare but it is still a risk.

You can buy a f/t mouse every now and again to try to switch him. Or as other have stated that some snakes that like live will take pre killed over frozen.

I'm sorry people came off wrong to you on here. It's just that a lot of members here have been here on this forum for years and that this whole live vs f/t debate comes up constantly! Literally every few days or so. We get annoyed with repeating the same thing over and over again. Especially when so many refused to listen or only want to argue. Most feel, "Why ask for advice if you aren't willing to take it?" You can see how that would get annoying right?

Anyway, I wish you luck with your snake. I hope he will change his mind about eating live. But if not it's not the end of the world. You just have a little more to worry about when feeding.

[xStaticSnow]

Thanks again,

I will continue to offer thawed and attempt to feed recently killed as well as stunned mice. Some of the advice has been very valuable to me.

Others can rest assured that I will do everything in my power to make sure my snake remains healthy and injury free for the rest of his life, especially during feedings.

[AliCat37]

yeah we would stun the mice for picky ball babies just by placing them inside a tuppaware container and using a lot of force that would cause them to hit the top and then fall. Yes, the mice can get injured and I do feel bad about it :( But if the snake eats the stunned mouse that is (in my opinion) a step in the right direction. If the snake does not seem interested just quickly bop the mouse by holding onto the base of the tail and hitting it against something hard (I use a concrete block). It should die instantly.
It's too bad he let go of the prekilled mouse when you tried moving it! But I completely understand your concern about his teeth.
Like I said before, as long as you are trying to get your little buddy to switch over you're doing a good thing :) But like wingedsweetheart and I said, if live is all he will accept so be it as long as you make sure he doesn't get chewed up (which obviously is not a problem since you say he goes after it right away). It is better than letting him starve to death!

[Outcast]

To answer the question about thawing, I know how to thaw a mouse! Please do not assume that someone who has not had thousands of posts on this specific site has no idea what they're doing. I've spent a decent amount of time reading suggestions and solutions that others have posted on this site.

My frozen mice come individuality packaged in small zip lock containers. I leave them in the bag so they say dry. I defrost them in warm water for about 10 minutes, then I dip their heads in much warmer water for just a few more seconds. My snake has shown interest in the thawed mice before. I believe I already posted this, but he has opened his mouth and bitten the mouse, but lost interest once he realized that the mouse is dead.

I have tried feeding frozen mice in the feeding bin, leaving them in the feeding bin, feeding in the viv with newspaper substrate, leaving it in the viv overnight, scenting the mouse, braining it, cutting it, wiggling it, covering his viv, and a smaller mouse then he would usually eat.


If you took my post to be inflammatory at all, you should go back and re-read it with a calm head.
You will see that I added information about people who I had dealt with in the past.
And without any prior information on the way you thaw your mice, It was safe to assume that you had been thawing the same way that everyone I have come in contact with. Due to the fact that they all had the same problems.
So, it seems as though you misunderstood my post. Because I can assure you that I have been typing with a clear head.

[xStaticSnow]

If you took my post to be inflammatory at all, you should go back and re-read it with a calm head.
You will see that I added information about people who I had dealt with in the past.
And without any prior information on the way you thaw your mice, It was safe to assume that you had been thawing the same way that everyone I have come in contact with. Due to the fact that they all had the same problems.
So, it seems as though you misunderstood my post. Because I can assure you that I have been typing with a clear head.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make before. I read all of these posts with a calm head. The fact is that no, you don't have any right to "safely assume" anything about me unless I had previously told you. You do not know me at all and just because in this one particular thread I didn't mention how I go about thawing my mice (I may of even mentioned this in another thread of mine) doesn't mean that you can equate this whole situation to me being exactly alike other individuals you have talked to, in how I do something.

It would have been much less inflammatory towards me if you had simply said something like, "make sure you are thawing your mice in warm water, and not just letting them get to room temperature."

I'm not trying to turn this thread into an argument that will continue on after the original topic has been lost, but I am frustrated with the way some people are treated here. It's common on threads, and very much so on this site in my opinion.. but I am constantly seeing that those who have obviously been posting here for quite some time sometimes develop hot heads. Constantly making assumptions, repeating information, and then getting frustrated when questions are repeatedly asked. No two questions are exactly the same and just repeating the same phrases over and over in responses is doing nothing to help in the development and encouragement of new and advancing solutions.

A thread is a place for questions and comments to be supplied, and answers, opinions, and suggestions to be facilitated. All I'm asking is for those who are reading my post, to please allow yourself to open your mind and let go of your frustrations because that is one step in making this community of snakes lovers, in which you invest so much of your time, a stronger, more efficient, and enjoyable environment for everyone.

[Outcast]

Attacking me is not a good way to make your point.

I agree with many others on here that say that if it is the only way to get your snake to eat, then yes feeding live is alright. I also agree that switching it over to F/T is not only A) Safer for the snake, but B) less of a hit to your pocketbook.

Again, I say, re-read my original post. And, please, point out to me where I was being inflammatory. I was telling you my experience with other people who had the same problem, and going off the lack of information you provided, I wrongfully assumed that you thawed yours out the same way. And for that I am sorry.

[starsevol]

Hey TPSS, I did not see you being inflamatory at all. Not one bit. I think that "static" likes to cause static. My opinion is that a person can't expect a whole community to change the way THEY want it to by prancing in here, asking a question that has been asked a zillion times before that is KNOWN to cause controversy, being very vague in saying how they do things, and then attacking a regular member who was trying to help.

I have a feeling that this static causer won't be here very long.....cause we aren't changing....

[starsevol]

Oh, and just another fact....Outcast does indeed have the "right" to safely assume anything he damn well pleases. People have the "right" to assume anything they bloody well want to. Who do you think you are anyway, the thought police?

[Lennycorn]

Well .... going from your first post..
You owned (I guessing your first snake) for a month and a half, and quote ""he is so skinny! You can distinctly see his spine along the length of his body and his jaws stick out a great deal from where his neck begins. It seems alarming to me,""
Waited a week to feed, which is a good thing. then tried three time over the next few week using different methods. quote ""Wiggled it around, brained it, slit it, left it overnight, scented it with tuna water, and then chicken broth.tried assist feeding"" And I read that he refused be cause of he when blue and shed (which is normal for some snakes) Then.. after all that accepted a small live mice.

Well, from what I gather from all that, is that you received a not so healthy snake which make me question the previous owner husbandry (who supplied you with f/t). And sound like the snake was getting stress out from the attempted feedings and going into blue, (which take longer for an older snake). And ate a live mouse in the end.

My take is that you need to works with snakes more. Be more patience when trying to feed it. It might take a more times, it might take a few feeding of stun mice, it might take take a really hot f/t with tuna juice on it.

But if you you read/hear the info on the cons on feeding live,then it's worth the try. Isn't it!!

[xStaticSnow]

Then your forum is a dead end. If you are unwilling to be accepting to new people who have not been around as long as you then how do you expect to have a growing and thriving site.

I wasn't specifically targeting Outcast either. he is the one who brought up the word in inflammatory in the first place. I was simply mirroring his statement for emphasis on mine. I'm sorry if my "play on words" was not clear to you.

If this is how I will continue to be treated, then yes I probably wont stick around.

To be honest I am hurt by the posts in this thread. I have not experienced this type of bullying on the site before.

Starsevol you are jumping on me for every little thing I said, and I'm sorry if you are reading into it incorrectly or negatively.

I did not come here to be bashed for asking questions, then put down for having opinions. I didn't post mt thoughts so that other members could gang up on me. I did appreciate the kind words of others who had thought to be more understanding. Initially I had only written a few sentences directed towards the whole mouse thing and it wasn't a big deal. It not has turned into something much worse and with the arrival of the last 2 posts I feel like the attitude here has turned hostile.

The actual topic on the thread appears to be dead now.. I thought the initial "debating" on here might be helpful in the end as new ideas might emerge from all the others which I had already read repeatedly on other threads. I guess that idea is garbage now though, and if you really speak for everyone else here and still think that no one will change their ways, then that's fine.

Nothing stays the same forever, especially not the sciences of life (including snakes, mice, etc)

If you are not open to learning and exploring new areas then there is no way for knowledge and care of pet snakes to be improved.

[xStaticSnow]

Well .... going from your first post..
You owned (I guessing your first snake) for a month and a half, and quote ""he is so skinny! You can distinctly see his spine along the length of his body and his jaws stick out a great deal from where his neck begins. It seems alarming to me,""
Waited a week to feed, which is a good thing. then tried three time over the next few week using different methods. quote ""Wiggled it around, brained it, slit it, left it overnight, scented it with tuna water, and then chicken broth.tried assist feeding"" And I read that he refused be cause of he when blue and shed (which is normal for some snakes) Then.. after all that accepted a small live mice.

Well, from what I gather from all that, is that you received a not so healthy snake which make me question the previous owner husbandry (who supplied you with f/t). And sound like the snake was getting stress out from the attempted feedings and going into blue, (which take longer for an older snake). And ate a live mouse in the end.

My take is that you need to works with snakes more. Be more patience when trying to feed it. It might take a more times, it might take a few feeding of stun mice, it might take take a really hot f/t with tuna juice on it.

But if you you read/hear the info on the cons on feeding live,then it's worth the try. Isn't it!!

What you have said makes sense. But I will need it clarified what you mean by more patients. I don't feel comfortable with him not eating for any longer. Maybe if he was a healthy weight, then yes it wouldn't do too much hard if it took a month of two before he chose to eat. But he's already underweight, and like you said, stressed. If he readily accepts a live mouse then at least he is getting some calories, and I'm not putting him through the stress of putting dead mouse after dead mouse in front of him when he doesn't want to eat it..

I feel like everyone thinks I would allow the mouse to gnaw on my snake.. This would not happen he takes the mouse immediately and I am there to prevent any bites while the mouse is being constricted.. is this being understood or just ignored?

Patients wise.. I've left the mouse overnight more than once. Just because there were three time periods when I attempted to feed doesn't mean I only used 3 frozen mice.

The first 2 I used came in a little blue box that the old owner gave me. I don't remember the brand, sorry, but I'm sure it came from a local pet shop.

The frozen ones I had were actually killed at a pet shop near by (a respectable one however, all of their animals are well taken care of and they offer the names of the breeders for their snakes, dogs, parrots, etc.) They kill the mice and freeze them in shop to feed the snakes they have for sale, you can purchase the dead mice for the same price as a live one...

[starsevol]

One quick question. How are you thawing the mouse out?

The reason I ask, is that most of the time I talk to someone who feeds live, they say that their snake won't eat frozen, and then I find out that they just sit the mouse out on the table and let it get to room temperature. Though 90% of the time they do not want to learn about the correct way to thaw the mouse/rat out, and decide they would rather keep feeding live and put their animals at risk...

Though I have gotten some to switch over. And once they thawed the mouse under hot water, instead of letting it come to room temperature, their snake ate it...

THIS is the post you got all snarky about. He was not inflammatory in the least!!! If you had a problem with this post, it is your issue and not any issue with this forum or the members here.
You simply are not going to tell people what to think and what to say. It ain't gonna work!!

[xStaticSnow]

That was no being snarky, it was being realistic and asking others not to make assumptions about me.. yes it was about his post but what I said applied to everyone.

I'm not telling anyone what to think, I'm asking others if they are willing to be more open minded. If they are not willing then that's fine, and they are also free to make assumptions and judge me all they want. But there is no need to post it here for me to read, just as there is no need for you to be throwing things into my face like this.

To be honest I have no interest in fighting about the way you think posts sound in your head or would have been said in person if we were actually having a conversation instead of typing on a computer. I wanted to learn about my snake, I got suggestions and I took the ones that I hadn't already tried into consideration. I had a post saying I was going to try stunning my mouse and trying a freshly killed mouse.

Some of the other posts here were just plain mean, and you can't convince me otherwise.

[Lennycorn]

I don't know how more I can clarify that for you but the fact is...You don't have much experience and the snake is underweight. This can contribute to the fact that is hard to feed it.
As I read your replies I can see your inexperience with snakes. Which is OK but try not take the easy way and say live is better for whatever because of....
Cause the truth is live is only better only when the snake will only take live.
But to me, that is not a ""fact"" that have been proven here.

You will need to read up on feeding tip and ideals. But if I were you, I would stop trying to feed it for a few weeks

Yes, stop.

Then feed it a hot slice f/t.
In a quite dim room.
When it's hungry
With out all of the fanfare.

This will take patience. But it will be the best route for the snake.

[starsevol]

That was no being snarky, it was being realistic and asking others not to make assumptions about me.. yes it was about his post but what I said applied to everyone.

I'm not telling anyone what to think, I'm asking others if they are willing to be more open minded. If they are not willing then that's fine, and they are also free to make assumptions and judge me all they want. But there is no need to post it here for me to read, just as there is no need for you to be throwing things into my face like this.

To be honest I have no interest in fighting about the way you think posts sound in your head or would have been said in person if we were actually having a conversation instead of typing on a computer. I wanted to learn about my snake, I got suggestions and I took the ones that I hadn't already tried into consideration. I had a post saying I was going to try stunning my mouse and trying a freshly killed mouse.

Some of the other posts here were just plain mean, and you can't convince me otherwise.

You are not a moderator. You will not tell people what assumptions they may or may not make, and what thoughts they may or may not post.
There was NO problem in the way that Aaron addressed you. He was trying to help you, for crying out loud!! I think you owe him an apology actually.

Personally I don't think ANY of the posts here were mean. I think you are too sensitive. I think you don't KNOW from mean....

[toxiclight]

You will not tell people what assumptions they may or may not make

You know what they say about making assumptions?

Ask questions, certainly, to clarify points.

Threads like this are the reason that I rarely if ever asked questions when I first started coming to this site. I emailed/PMd some of the people who seemed nicer or more open rather than ask in open forum and get jumped immediately with graphic photos or talked down to. There are people on this site that make it extremely difficult for newcomers to feel comfortable asking for answers.

In his first post, the OP was asking advice for an underweight, malnourished snake...he did make it clear that he fed live to get nourishment into the snake before resuming his attempts to swap it to f/t and wanted advice to see if there were other methods that he hadn't tried. (it was also fairly clear that he had done some reading, was aware of the risks, and was taking what precautions he could in the meantime) He was given some very good advice by a few people here, and attacked by others. I know I didn't appreciate the huge graphic images thrown into the thread, and yes, I would certainly feel like I was being attacked thereafter. It was unwarranted.

Yes, he may have jumped a little hard at the question about thawing (although in his response, he only asked that assumptions not be made and went on to explain how exactly he thawed/heated his mice)...but coming on the back of...fourth post in the thread with pictures, next post stating "I do however have a really really low opinion of someone who feeds live FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL...... "

[Nanci]

OP- have you posted a photo of your snake somewhere, or could you, so we can get a feel for how thin it really is?

[Lennycorn]

OP- have you posted a photo of your snake somewhere, or could you, so we can get a feel for how thin it really is?
Hey Nanci, here's a picture of it. Skinny???
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112819
and another
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113764

[airenlow]

I think it looks perfectly healthy in the second set of pics...maybe maybe a tad thin.

[Nanci]

I agree, Josh. I wouldn't call that snake skinny at all. OP- are you familiar with male springtime hunger strikes? We're at the tail end of the breeding season and my males that were hunger striking have only been back to feeding for a couple meals. It's possible all this refusing has something to do with that.

If you truly want to feed this snake FT or PK, I would give him a good two or three weeks to get hungry. (A healthy adult snake can easily go three or four _months_ without eating and be none the worse for it). Then I would try a FT smaller mouse, like a hopper or weanling, thawed, heated up to 102F, with fur dried by paper towel or blow dried. If he doesn't eat that, I would try a week later with a FK mouse.

[starsevol]

Yes, he may have jumped a little hard at the question about thawing (although in his response, he only asked that assumptions not be made and went on to explain how exactly he thawed/heated his mice)...but coming on the back of...fourth post in the thread with pictures, next post stating "I do however have a really really low opinion of someone who feeds live FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL...... "

Just to clarify, I firmly believe that a snake that won't eat any other way is a darn good reason to feed live. I thought I pointed that out? :shrugs:
However, if feeling compassion towards every living thing that can feel pain and fear makes me a freak, then I fly my freak flag proudly. It is your right to disagree. It is what it is....

[Outcast]

If you are not open to learning and exploring new areas then there is no way for knowledge and care of pet snakes to be improved.

I can tell you that I am constantly learning new things, literally every day I learn something that I did not know about animals, be it about snakes, or fish, or dogs. One of the great thing about working at Petco is that we have quite a few customers that Know much more than I do about many subjects. But, then we get some customers that, like you state, are not open to learning.
I can assure you that I am open to learning new things.

But, after reading my first post that you got extremely disrespectful about, I notice that I started it off with a question. Which in my experience in dealing with people who have had the same problem with their snakes, is a good question. It was you who decided to get upset about it.

Now, if you would be open to ideas and learning then you would learn from everyone's experiences around here, including mine. I learn from everyone's experiences, yes, even from people who are more new to snakes than I, and compared to many, if not most people on this site, I am new to snakes myself.

[starsevol]

I agree, Josh. I wouldn't call that snake skinny at all. OP- are you familiar with male springtime hunger strikes? We're at the tail end of the breeding season and my males that were hunger striking have only been back to feeding for a couple meals. It's possible all this refusing has something to do with that.

If you truly want to feed this snake FT or PK, I would give him a good two or three weeks to get hungry. (A healthy adult snake can easily go three or four _months_ without eating and be none the worse for it). Then I would try a FT smaller mouse, like a hopper or weanling, thawed, heated up to 102F, with fur dried by paper towel or blow dried. If he doesn't eat that, I would try a week later with a FK mouse.

Nanci, in my overheatedness I completely missed this! Great call! To the op, my males do this to me every single year, some go for months, yes months!!! I used to lose sleep over it and had to learn not to worry quite so much.

[Outcast]

What was I thinking!!! I didn't even think of the spring strike...
I agree, the second thread with pictures of the snake, he looks healthy to me, but what do I know. My girl was obese when I got her, so I had to put her on a diet.

[WingedSweetheart]

I also forgot about males going on hunger strikes. I guess because it's not spring any more. But I do have a male kingsnake and he stopped eating for me around May. I just now have gotten him to eat last week. He also ate this week with no problem. So hopefully the strike is over lol.

[AliCat37]

He doesn't LOOK skinny to me. But it really depends on the weight, like others have said. I too forgot about hunger strikes during breeding season.

[snakewispera snr]

I tried everything I could to get him to eat. Wiggled it around, brained it, slit it, left it overnight, scented it with tuna water, and then chicken broth.. Finally a friend of mine who has snakes tried assist feeding, by gently holding his head and putting him nose to nose with the mouse. He refused to open his mouth.

Once he did decide to bite the thawed mouse a few times, but after realizing it was dead he lost all interest. I really wouldn't have been that nervous except for the fact that he is so skinny! You can distinctly see his spine along the length of his body and his jaws stick out a great deal from where his neck begins. It seems alarming to me, but then again I could be worrying too much..

I've had him a little over 6 weeks like I said, but I've only attempted to feed F/T 3 times. The first week I didn't try to feed him, then he refused the second week, the third week he went into blue and had a bad shed, the fourth week he refused, the fifth week he refused, and the sixth week he accepted a small live mouse immediately, killing it literally within seconds. 2 days later he pooped and now he seems as happy as can be.

I keep hearing and reading insistent opinions that feeding live is a bad thing. I understand the mice can bite but my snake was raised on live mice and it's obviously his preference. I think I would rather just supply a live mouse every week than poke and prod and worry when he refuses to take a frozen one..

Is this reasonable or are there major risks which would make it a better option to continue trying to feed frozen? Maybe I should feed him live until he gets some weight on him and then try to switch over to frozen? I'm not sure.. but feeding day is tomorrow and I was planning on heading back to the pet store for another feeder.

thanks guys
The thing is....... We are snake charmers.... With experience you will learn about corns and know what floats their boat... You will learn the zombie dance, warming, and certain lady produces that vibrate and 'sound' like a thousand foods running along, and trigger a feeding response.....
feeding live to get a means to an end is dangerous and, well, the easy option......
see what I am saying, and where I am coming from.....
We are in this for the long game....

[xStaticSnow]

I see what everyone is saying. I'm sorry if my eagerness to feed him live upset those here. Next time I'll try all the options suggested here.

I still do stand by what I said about being treated in a way that hurt my feelings, but I respect what's been said and I also admit and agree that I haven't been dealing for snakes for very long and haven't had to deal with a snake that's a picky eater before.

Sorry for any upsets, next time I'll try to avoid the hot button topics and comments. I'm trying my best

[xStaticSnow]

And finally, maybe I'm just paranoid but he looks healthy in this photo?

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1269&pictureid=9744

He looks so much thinner than some of the other snakes on here... I will try to get a weight on him as soon as possible.. he's about 3 1/3 ft long

[WingedSweetheart]

I think a lot of the snakes on here are bigger because they are used for breeding and females need to be big in order to lay eggs because it takes a lot out of them. There are also a lot of people who have chubby snakes and know it. It's not that they power feed. I think some snakes just pack it on easier than others.

He looks a little thin in that picture. But not unhealthy. If he continues to eat he'll probably put on some more weight. Though he may just be small.

[elfpunk19]

I always enjoy reading the information that others put on these threads, I am only a pet keeper of 2 corns and 1 is male, and it is very helpful to know that males can go on hunger strikes. Hopefully if it happens I wont freak out lol.

[BloodyBaroness]

He really does not look that thin. Honestly, his body type is closer to what a corns should be.

Healthy corns look like a loaf of bread if you were to take a cross section out of their middle. There should not be any gaps between the scales and the body needs to have good muscle tone, not feel flabby.

Really many of the corns you see posted are technically overweight.

[airenlow]

This is one of my pairings from this year. To me, the Cinder looks super skinny, but that's just his body type. He eats a large adult mouse every week and just maintains his current weight. He's solid muscle though, so it's all good...

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn35/airenlow/2011%20Breeding%20Season/DSC_0701.jpg

[Outcast]

He does look pretty healthy to me. I have a male that is a slow grower, and I keep getting freaked out when I hear people who have snakes the same age, that weight twice as much as he does... I just do not want to end up overfeeding him and causing a regurge. Since he does look healthy to me... He may be ready by next spring for my first breeding, but if he is not, I am not worried too much...lol.

[xStaticSnow]

Okay thanks, good to know he's not too thin..

I guess its just from seeing the snakes on here.
I understand now seeing airenlow's post..
I always thought my snake should be about the thickness of your butter to be considered healthy.

Mine's not too far off from how your cinder looks in that photo

[Lennycorn]

Go to Walmart.

Get a digital scale. One that can read 5000 grams will do. Cost about $25.00.

It also looks cool when people come over and ask about it.

Could be used for modern art too.

Go to Walmart

[xStaticSnow]

Or go take my dads that he never uses for free (:

Just gotta get the time to actually go over there and the courage to deal with my obnoxious father!

Thanks though, walmart will be option numero 2

[Snake-Charmer]

i have owned corns for around 2 years now and have always fed two of my snakes F/T but have always heated it up in water, then wiggled the mouse around in front of it and pulling the mouse back and fourth to get the snake interested and they will take it straight away. if i leave the mouse in the tank on a rock forinstance it will wait about 5 mins sniffing it and then finally bites. my snakes naturally constrict the already dead mouse but this is natural and is less likely to happen if left in tank. I have read other forums and people say it makes the snakes aggressive if it constricts and strikes but mine have always been fine and have never bitten me but tbh if u have been feeding live it will be used to constricting and will not become aggressive. So i would suggest wiggling it infront of it and teasing it :) good luck

[Maisimadu]

The easiest and best way to thaw a rodent is- placeing it in hot water in a plastic bag
The rodent wont get wet, u dont have to blow dry it and leave a burnt sent on it.
Easy as pie aint it?

[ghosthousecorns]

I have a few snakes that will only eat live and I have tried everything to switch them over. Should you switch over a snake to f/t f you can? Absolutely. But if you have a snake that only takes live you will still have to feed it. Stunning the mouse will protect the snake if you are concerned about it getting bitten. While the picture of the snake with rodent bites all over it is pretty bad, that would never have happened if the owner had not taken a live rat, put it in the snakes cage, and WALKED AWAY.
Try and switch over if you can, let the snake get a little hungry too as suggested, I did find out a couple of mine that won't take f/t mice, WILL take f/t baby rats about the same size so that is something else to try. If none of those things work and you find the only way it will eat is live, then just do what you have to do and don't worry about people's opinions.
@ Josh- cinders are wiry little things aren't they? My juvie male looks similar to yours in body type.

[xStaticSnow]

I've been able to get all my snakes switched over to f/t mice for the past month or so now. Just thought I might mention a little trick I learned..

My baby garter snake eats diced up pinky mice, so I have to cut it into pieces and thaw those pieces in a bag. This leaves a lot of nasty bloody gunk behind. I've learned that if I thaw the adult mice for my other snakes in the same bag as the pinky pieces that gunk gets all over the mice and it must smell appealing because it hasn't failed once yet

Thanks for your post! (:

[Dreamsnake]

I've stunned mice by holding the tail and smacking their heads on a table. I did break some necks, but they were still twitching when they went to the snake. These were a friend's snakes, not mine.

I grew up with indoor/outdoor cats that hunted everything moving from butterflies to rats, even snakes. I learned to accept that many pets still retain the wild nature to hunt. I wont even get into dogs. To my understanding a snake that also wants to kill his own food isn't strange.

My first thought when reading this was the male breeding fast. I wondered why it took so long before that was pointed out. My second thought was that the frozen mice you got with the snake may have gone bad. I'd just throw them out to be safe.

I have a two year old snake who has survived four regurges. Your snake is no where near as skinny as mine. Don't worry to much, many keepers only feed their adult males every 14 days.

He is your snake so you must be the judge of what is right for him. I nearly got a live rat for my male ball python this past winter when Titus went months without eating. The husband would have ripped me a new one if I did. The snake began to eat f/t rats the next week and hasn't refused since.

Good luck with Ziggy.