Cohabbing Misfortunes.

[Shiari]

This thread has a single purpose: To collect and keep in one places tales of the consequences of cohabbing.


To start, yes I cohabbed once. One of the snakes ended up on a 6 week hunger strike and had a year of fickle feedings, resulting in real issues growing for a fair while. Feren only started eating again once I separated him from Liam, who was twice his size. He had eaten well for a month before the hunger strike started.

[MysticExotics]

Thanks for starting this thread!

I am glad I found this forum. I don't have any cohabbing stories, because I took the advice I read & chose not to cohab my snakes.

So many horror stories, it's sad.

I don't know who it was, but I remember one person who had two gorgeous babies they picked up from an expo, & thought the babies would be ok together on the way home, but one ate the other one, & they both died, if I remember right.

I think pictures are probably appropriate in this thread, don't you?

[Shiari]

Photographic evidence of cohabbing problems:

[starsevol]

Moderators, please forgive me. This is in my forum, but I would like to put it here too.

On a Saturday night back in March 2005, I went into the snakeroom to feed the snakes. Back then I only had 3 ball pythons and 8 cornsnakes. I thawed the mice and went to feed one of the ball pythons. My normally placid ball python was hissing and wildly striking at me the moment I opened the drawer. I jumped back and noticed a scorched smell and saw that the substrate was charred. I pulled the drawer all the way out of the rack, while dodging the strikes of the snake, put on my "wussy gloves" and transferred the snake into the large "critter keeper" that I used on cage-cleaning day.
The bottom of the drawer was actually melted. There was a fist-sized hole where the plastic was gone. I was horrified. I quickly unplugged the rack and waited for the snake to settle down. Thankfully, the snake was unhurt.

I ended up having to co-hab 2 of my ball pythons and 2 of my corns until the new rack came. Not a great situation as I had never been a fan of cohabbing in the first place. Snakes don't choose to socialize or travel in herds in the wild, but this was only going to be temporary. I put my 2 male ball pythons, and 2 of my male cornsnakes together. One of the cornsnakes was named Kelsey. He was a 7 year old amel stripe and one of the most beautiful snakes I had ever laid eyes on. I got him from a breeder that never learned how to pop or probe hatchlings, but said he could tell a snakes sex by its tail shape. I had put Kelsey in with females in the past, but he never showed any interest. I thought it was just bad timing on my part......

The new rack came about 2 weeks later. I settled everyone into their new digs, and thought things were fine. I was wrong. A few weeks later I noticed that Kelsey was starting to look "chunky". It NEVER EVER occured to me that "he" might be gravid. For 7 years I had thought of Kelsey as a male. I never provided a lay box. Why would you provide a lay box for a male snake?
One night in July I went to feed Kelsey and found "him" surrounded by 13 or 14 eggs. It took a few minutes for it to sink in that my boy was actually a girl. Initially, I was thrilled. I had wanted to breed that gorgeous snake from the beginning. I fed Kelsey a fuzzy and set the eggs up in vermiculite.

A couple of weeks went by, and Kelsey "seemed" to recover. She was eating and acting normally. I had not handled her since she laid her eggs. I took her out of the cage and noticed a huge lump near her cloaca, with several more behind it. My heart sank. I made a vet appointment the next day. The vet managed to get one egg out of her and gave her an injection designed to cause muscle contractions, in hopes of helping her expel the rest of the eggs. After a week of no progress I brought her back to the vet. She was given another injection. The next morning, Kelsey was dead.

It was very hard losing Kelsey that way. It was my fault for co-habbing and not seeing the signs of a gravid snake. But, I still had the eggs. That was something. I decided that it would be hard to give up ANY of Kelsey's babies, come hatch time. Even if they were a bunch of normals, I could breed them together and hopefully someday hatch a baby as beautiful as that girl was.....
But one by one I watched the eggs die. Soon I had only 9 good ones....then 8...And by October I was down to only 3 good eggs.

On October 12 a head poked out of one egg. I was elated. The baby had the same wonderful striped pattern as its mother!! On October 13, another head appeared, and again the same striped pattern emerged. The color was a bit darker on both those babies but that wonderful pattern was the same! (That meant the male was het for stripe too!) Then on October 14, the last baby hatched, the spitting image of Kelsey! They turned out to be all males, and they came at a horrible price. But I named them Kessler, Kato and Kismet and kept all 3. My avatar is a picture of Kato as a hatchling.

Anyway, to cut to the chase, I will have to say that I am adamantly against co-habbing snakes. It cost one of mine her life. If my words seem strong in those kinds of threads, it just because I don't want someone else to go through what I did. The snakes are the ones who suffer for our poor decisions. Always remember that.
__________________

[kaypar2011]

I will share my experience with cohabbing. I have had snakes off and on most of my life. Had been out of it for awhile and decided I wanted corn snakes. Bought a male Anery and female Normal motley from a "breeder". They were both 5 months old. The were kept together since birth. The male was huge in comparison to the female and I was told they would be fine together. Even asked advice from my local pet shop that had a snake "expert" working there. The "expert" said they would be fine in the same viv. My snakes were always together also, they ate well, shed etc. for about 2 months. The female just wasn't growing. I found her dead in the viv one morning and she looked like she had been regurged or mashed. Either way she was dead, and I wish I could go back and change the way I first did things. I can't but I sure learned a lesson. Never will I cohab snakes again, no matter what age!!! My Anery, will be a year old in Sept., now weighs 93 grams and is gorgeous, I miss my little Motley, still feel horrible about her demise, I could have avoided it.
__________________
Kay
_________________________

0.1 Adult CommonMiami Phase Corn Snake,
1.0 2010 Mystery/Anery

[Outcast]

Here is my contribution... I don't have any horror stories. But, I have an album full of misfortune pictures that I found in Google Images... http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1217

[Christen]

Here is a link to my thread. Granted it is not a "cohabbing" story but they were cohabbed for about an hour. And at this time we are hoping that it is a happy ending but as starsevol's story proves it is not always a happy ending. My biggest point is that these are babies. So even if the babies are happy and eating (and not each other) there is always a chance of premature breeding as well.


http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113024

[SnakeAround]

So far, this thread seems to suggest that co-habbing is only a bad thing to do when either of the snakes is too young to be bred. In that case, if they are old enough, it is not more dangerous than putting them together because you want them to breed. If you notice an unexpected gravity in time of course....

I must say I do feel a little 'itchy' from this thread; maybe I should start a thread on co-habbing for years without problems and one for cases were snakes were not co-habbed and still got sick or died? Recently I read somewhere that research showed that the stimulation of another snake nearby is actually beneficial.

I also don't understand why I see all those piles of hatchlings on this forum, while most cases of cannibalism occur between HATCHLINGS. I know that some will even keep them together as a group until their first shed. Yet these breeders are most probably against co-habbing..... weird choice IMO.

Sorry for the off topic contribution but I don't have any co-habbing misfortune stories to tell, even though I have been co-habbing for years (now wait for the scorching)

[Christen]

I do have to say and I put it in a thread somewhere. I do have a cohabbed pair. :duck: I know that they are both female cause they have both layed eggs and they are in a 100 gal tank. Plus, I have a couple more divided tanks but more often then not most the people that are asking are new. And I have a big probably telling someone that it is ok the cohab knowing that there is a risk when I know that if they don't cohab there isn't that same risk. Most of these problems come from people who don't know their snake inside or out, like we do. My biggest reason for bringing up the age thing is because I have seen many times at pet stores where people are told that they can cohab until 2 because the can not become gravid before that and we all know that just isn't the truth.

[Em Wright]

Blutengal... just had to stir the pot? :rolleyes: I think the point of this thread is simple: A place where we can collect stories, pictures, and information about cohabbing. There shouldn't be any debate here, there's been debate in a lot of other places.

I have never had problems with cohabbing. Why? Because I've NEVER done it and I never will. This was my first year producing hatchlings. I didn't get any baby pile pictures because I removed the babies as soon as I found they were completely out of the egg.

I have seen cohabbing though. I went to a breeder's house (nobody here) and he had about 5-8 yearlings in a shoebox size container together. Not just one tub like that, but several. How is that good for any snake? The only reason he kept them that way was so he could keep more snakes in a smaller space and make a bigger profit from selling them. :nope:

[SnakeAround]

Yeah sorry for that, sometimes you feel like that :p Please continue as if I did not write that please :rolleyes:

[AliCat37]

I was told by the breeder I originally got my corn from that my roommate and I could keep our two males together until they were two. I know I saw someone else's post in another section where their yearling was accidentally cohabbed and she laid eggs. I have to say, my year old corns are hardly the thickness of my pinkie finger, and I have some TINY hands (I feed them two fuzzies a week, so they're definitely eating right)! My roommate and I kept our two hatchlings in a 20 gallon long with tons of paper towel rolls, single serve cereal boxes, store bought hides, and even a pillowcase. I know snakes do not get attached to each other, but I think since they were babies they found each other's company to be comforting, because even though they were offered so many hides, they were ALWAYS in the same one together. Even if it was in the inside corner of the pillowcase. At the end of the school year we went our separate ways and the snakes were no worse for the wear. I don't keep any of my current pet snakes together though, even my two-year olds are in different tubs. BUT the hatchlings I have are together. I have three in one tub and two in the other. I would buy separate tubs for all of them, but since I don't have a room kept at 85 degrees that means most of them would be without heat. Thus being said, I know that there is always the risk of cannibalism and once these babies are gone the only time my two corns are going to see each other is in breeding season! I also do warn people who buy the babies from me about the potential for them to eat each other and other issues that may arise from cohabbing. I know this thread was probably started for negative stories, but my story is a story nonetheless.

[Christen]

I don't really think we are stirring the pot here. I just had to agree to a point and justify why I am saying "do as I say not as I do." I do think that the idea of this thread is a great one because when the question gets asked the next time, we can just give them a link and the thread is dead. Any even if there is a little discussion among us I think that is better and more constructive than if it is with someone who feels attacked. I also don't think it is bad for someone to put in here that they cohab either. Even if it is as simple as, "I agree with all of these point but I do cohab." We all know that there is going to be someone that see all of these bad points and still want to cohab but maybe seeing the ones that do. They will come to those and ask how they do it and avoid all of the negatives that can happen from keeping snakes together. :shrugs:

[K. Rene]

Cohabiting your snakes is a proceed at your own risk kind of deal. Just like we can't tell people how to raise their kids, we can't tell people how to keep their snakes. We can only suggest what we think is best and let the owner decide what they think is best for their critters.

I can also say that in the wild it's not like snakes are alone all the time (breeding season aside) if there was a nice pile of rocks, rubbish or other perfect hiding place for a snake I would imagine we would find many snakes hiding in it without issues. Just trying to look at the bigger picture here...

[Em Wright]

I loved your post and I agree completely with the first half. I do understand the second and feel I must add... Wild snakes may meet up as you say, in fact they likely do, however the main difference to note is that they can "escape" the other snake's presence whereas in a vivarium or tub they have a limited space and are unable to seek solitude should that be their desire.

[VickyChaiTea]

At work we cohab all of the corn snakes together, and the small ball pythons and BCIs (boa constrictors) together. The majority of the time things go great... but when they go wrong, they go seriously wrong. And that's the bottom line about cohabbing, in my opinion.

Recently a little anery who has eaten well and showed no signs of illness regurged. Or I THINK it regurged. See, since there is more than one snake per cage I have no real clue who did it. So I have to guess, and hope it doesn't die.

This happened with a boa while it was in with the BPs, too. But by the time I found out it was already extremely sick and passed away.

We have a large Bp with an RI infection, someone throws a perfectly healthy BP in with it and BAM. Two snakes with RIs. See what I mean? There is not ONE SINGLE BENEFIT for the snakes. Period. But here ARE a lot of risks to their health.

Anyone who cohabs just hasn't been doing it long enough for there to be a problem. As soon as they experience one, which they most likely will, they usually (hopefully) decide against it.

[SnakeAround]

Cohabiting your snakes is a proceed at your own risk kind of deal. Just like we can't tell people how to raise their kids, we can't tell people how to keep their snakes. We can only suggest what we think is best and let the owner decide what they think is best for their critters.

I can also say that in the wild it's not like snakes are alone all the time (breeding season aside) if there was a nice pile of rocks, rubbish or other perfect hiding place for a snake I would imagine we would find many snakes hiding in it without issues. Just trying to look at the bigger picture here...

That happens as a fact. So, maybe they don't feel like hanging out if they have the space of the outside, that does not necessarily mean that they hate to be close to each other when they get what they are looking for. I have a very large viv for 3 male yearlings with many hides and a large warm spot covering a couple of hides at a time. Yet they lay together all the time, like they did when they were in a smaller viv too. I feel pretty sure that they don't have the exact same idea about what hiding place they need to be in at every hour of the day all the time. I think they like the tight feeling of being in one coconut with the three of them. Over here on a Dutch forum those 'tied up' strings of corn snake in a coconut are considered quite normal, yesterday I saw one with four corns inside...

Of course, separating them and putting each of them in bath room size vivs with plants and climbing material would be perfect... duh

[Shiari]

Hmmm.... Thread: "Post your aneries"... replies: "Here's my amel!"

If I posted a thread about "Great benefits of cohabbing" would I get what I asked for in *this* thread, I wonder?

[Hypancistrus]

Hmmm.... Thread: "Post your aneries"... replies: "Here's my amel!"

If I posted a thread about "Great benefits of cohabbing" would I get what I asked for in *this* thread, I wonder?

Public forum. You've been around long enough to know you get what you get with cohabbing threads.

Someone in the thread hit the nail on the head... you can't tell people how to raise their kids (within reason) and the same applies for snakes. It's good to have photos of what COULD happen, but the fact is that it's rare and there ARE people of all sorts who will still take the risk.

Bluetengel is pointing out that in Europe it is considered perfectly acceptable to cohab. What is not being pointed out is that in Europe, their laws usually require MUCH larger vivs than ours even for one snake. As he said... 3 yearlings in a 100 gallon tank... that is a 6' x 18" tank. They CAN get away from each other if they choose.... there's a big difference between that and cramming 8 yearlings in a damn shoebox.

[SnakeAround]

I'm a she :)

6' x 18" wow... that I don't even use for my triple yearlings cage. That's 6 foot long right?

[Shiari]

My two hatchlings were in a 4 foot by 16" cage and I STILL had a problem.

[Kali]

I'm starting to love this thread! Everybody is sharing, sometimes disagreeing, but no attacking and namecalling at all. That's so great!

I do agree that this can be a very useful thread to refer to the next time a new member asks about cohabbing. At least everything is in one place.
There are lots of downpoints in cohabbing, most of them because it's done without some good sense. And I think most here agree at the least that it should not be suggested to newbies as a good thing.
For the rest, opinions are different and always will be.
I myself have a few that I cohab most of the year. Individuals I have kept quite some time alone (as you should in quarantaine when you get them of course) and I know their 'normal' behaviour. I believe I mentioned it somewhere before: one of them I tried to cohab and it didn't work out. He didn't regurge, he didn't go off food, he didn't get sick. But his behaviour change was subtle but obvious if you looked for it. Had I left him there, I guess I would have gotten to those problems, but I'm not trying that out. He is in a viv alone, not to be tried to cohab again.
I have vivs for all of them, to seperate when nessecary, but some of them I put together when possible.

There are so many things that can go wrong, and if you don't want them to happen, you have to have a very keen eye for everything. This I think you only learn to see when building experience over the years.

Maybe a list is not a bad thing?

** Cannibalism: mostly in hatchlings, sometimes juviniles.

** breeding too young: sometimes people are told they won't breed at that age, sometimes the animals are sexed wrong (mistakes happen!). Breeding at too young an age is mostly dangerous for the female, as it increases chances for eggbinding.

** Stress: this can be the cause of several problems. Behaviour change (like spending more time in hides), refusal to eat, regurges, shedding problems, sickness, ... etc.

** When an individual gets ill or regurges, you don't know which one it is.

I probably forget a few here...

In the heated threads usually somebody asks for the benefits of cohabbing. I do cohab some, so I can answer this question here: there are none for the snake imo. All the benefits are for the owner.
And here is where that keen eye comes in: when this is the case, and you (like me) as owner still decide to cohab, responsability is yours too. Don't think "oh it won't happen here", because then your guard will go down.
But it IS your choice. Just make that choice with all the facts in your head.

[SnakeAround]

I do think more space then being in a smaller viv alone or in a rack with less height is a benefit for the snake. Because putting snakes in racks is also beneficial for the owner mostly and done for the same reason (more snakes in same space) so I think it is a fair comparison.

[Jessicat]

I know snakes do not get attached to each other, but I think since they were babies they found each other's company to be comforting, because even though they were offered so many hides, they were ALWAYS in the same one together.

Just want to point out that it is a common misconception to think that because snakes utilize the same hides they must also "like" each other. Assigning human emotions to animals is something that many of us do, but realistically corns don't experience the same human thought process that we do of others of our own kind.

The snakes are most likely hiding in the same area because that temperature may be what their bodies need to do whatever it is they're doing.. digesting for example.

Try taking both snakes out, cleaning the cage, and placing the snakes in the tank at the same time. If you observe jerking motions, "sparing", and excessive pooping, the snakes are most likely being unnecessarily stressed by sharing a small environment together.

[SnakeAround]

What is sparing?

[Shiari]

Sparring is basically posture-fighting. Not always an outright attack, but the whole sort of "I'm gonna be top snake, just you see!" It can, of course, also involve 'real' fighting.

[SnakeAround]

Ah, there was an 'r' missing... I had two adults males wrestling together after one had been with a female for the first time. That was the time to separate them, now they both live in a smaller viv, separated. Both don't show any sign of post traumatic stress.

[pridecity]

The Denver Zoo co-habs. I think I might have a picture somewhere. I'll have to look. I get a kick out of being able to identify most of the fish and a lot of the reptiles now. I know that the cobras are together, but that seems to be a common thing. Maybe cobras are like garters and live in groups? I really don't know. I do know that the corns share an exhibit and don't seem to mind too much. I'll have to see if I have a picture though. If not, I'll just cart myself off to the zoo to get some pictures.

I was thinking, though, about some of the cage ideas I've been considering. One, for my four bearded dragons (2.2 no less). I was considering a "U" shaped cage much like a display case at a store. It would be about 9 feet x 5 feet x 9 feet, for example and 2 feet wide all the way around. We'll say it's three feet tall. That's roughly 54 x 30 x 54 cubic feet or 403 x 224 x 403 gallons (pretending we fill it all with water. That gives roughly 138 cubic feet or 1,030 gallons. That's fantastic for a cage and could possibly work for a few lizards.

My point is, with a cage this big, would cohabbing be "acceptable"?

[Kali]

Well, some will say yes, some will say no.

[diamondlil]

I visited a breeder a few years ago, when I got Sundance and Butch from him, and he didn't like racks at all. His vivs were huge, made out of converted wardrobes, with multiple levels, branches, vines..........and he cohabbed his adult corns in them as breeding pairs or trios, or in single sex groupings. He's not a member on here any more, but from what I remember he seemed quite successful with his set-ups. I didn't ask at the time what happened with his gravid females, I wish I had, but there were spare fairly large vivs so maybe he used those.

[SnakeAround]

You wouldn't know what happens in our little country... I once saw a viv at a buyer's place measuring about 7,5 feet x 7,5 feet x 16 inch. It had cork lining on the rear wall and mutliple shelves and some plastic plants placed on it. There was one sink sized waterbowl. He had about 6 hatchlings/juvi's housed in there. They were looking at the world from their high hiding places, it was cute to see. He put in the three he bought from me with them. Not sure how I felt about that...

[Kali]

Little country? It's a quart bigger than mine! :)

wow 9 litlle ones together? hmm.

[SnakeAround]

mkay... maybe co-habbing is more common in smalle conutries since we are all packed in our buildings too? If I see all those large houses surrounded by a garden in American documentaries I understand why they can have so many snakes without co-habbing...lol

[Kali]

lol in urban surroundings, I'm sure there are small appartments there too

[Shiari]

So the question then becomes: If (generic)you don't have enough space to house the snakes, why do (generic)you have so many?

[Kali]

Not really you know.
It's just not considered 'not having enough space' as cohabbing is generally accepted.
Unfortunately some people don't have any common sense and don't learn about their pets habbits and ways of life. I'm sure you have that kind of people too, even apart from the cohabbing issue.

[diamondlil]

So the question then becomes: If (generic)you don't have enough space to house the snakes, why do (generic)you have so many?
In the case of the cohabbing set ups I saw, there was much more space devoted to the elaborate vivs than a rack system would have needed. It was like a reptile display in a zoo.
I know I said ages ago about cohabbing that there isn't a problem until there's a problem, but in this particular case, the breeder kept his small collection of corns in naturalistic displays that must have taken a lot more effort to make and maintain than any rack, and all his snakes were very healthy.
I prefer my easy to maintain rack system, but don't necessarily think an experienced keeper with large cohabbing vivs for adult snakes is doing wrong.

[SnakeAround]

I really respect people who can find joy in keeping a smaller amount of corns in a couple of naturalistic displays which need a load of time to set up and maintain. Those are the ultimate snake keepers to me. I am not like that, as most snake keepers are not like that. However, I, as most snake keepers over here do, still want my snakes to be as happy and healthy as they can be within the environment I create for them. Both rack keepers and co-habbers fail compared to the ultimate snake keeper type mentioned above.

[AliCat37]

Just want to point out that it is a common misconception to think that because snakes utilize the same hides they must also "like" each other. Assigning human emotions to animals is something that many of us do, but realistically corns don't experience the same human thought process that we do of others of our own kind.

The snakes are most likely hiding in the same area because that temperature may be what their bodies need to do whatever it is they're doing.. digesting for example.

Try taking both snakes out, cleaning the cage, and placing the snakes in the tank at the same time. If you observe jerking motions, "sparing", and excessive pooping, the snakes are most likely being unnecessarily stressed by sharing a small environment together.


Please, before you attack me, re-read what I had said :(
I stated that I KNOW snakes do not get attached or enjoy each others company. I know that they don't love, and that they don't like to be played with, and that they really would prefer to be left alone. I also said that these were two hatchlings in a 20 gallon long tank with plenty of spaces to hide and that they were together only for a few months until my roommate and I went our separate ways. This was already several years ago. So taking both snakes out and cleaning the cage really is not an option. I also stated that I do not cohab any of my current pet snakes, only a few hatchlings that I don't have the ability to house individually unless they go without heat.

[fsuseminole]

I just got myself what I think is a snow coral hatchling at Petco, and they had 7 hatchlings in a 10 gallon tank. :confused:

I seemed to get really lucky with mine because so far she eats like a champ and is incredibly active, but needless to say I made sure to check for respiratory / mite problems pretty thoroughly before buying mine.

Was really sad to see like 4 hatchlings under the same hide (which, incidentally, was one of those giant half log turtle hides... way too big for hatchlings).

[sycorn26]

I really respect people who can find joy in keeping a smaller amount of corns in a couple of naturalistic displays which need a load of time to set up and maintain. Those are the ultimate snake keepers to me. I am not like that, as most snake keepers are not like that. However, I, as most snake keepers over here do, still want my snakes to be as happy and healthy as they can be within the environment I create for them. Both rack keepers and co-habbers fail compared to the ultimate snake keeper type mentioned above.

Completely agree!

[AliCat37]

So this is an older thread, however, I went to the petstore today (not naming names but there's a few of these reptile stores in CO.. hmm). I was looking into their baby corn cage and noticed one extraordinarily fat hatchling. My first thought was that they had fed the hatching two large fuzzies. I looked a bit closer and could see the clear coils of another snake INSIDE the baby. I pointed him out to my boyfriend and said "This is why my snakes don't live together." I went to the counter to purchase my crickets for the lizard and made a comment of "Nice cannibal corn snake." And the guy thought I was joking! I told him that the hatchlings were eating each other and two other employees went to look and began to freak out. They removed the other hatchlings and put them in a different set up. Apparently the employees had never ever heard of corns eating each other. >.> The only thing they did know was that he was probably going to die from eating such a big meal. Then they laughed it off and said "Those snakes are so skinny, no wonder they're eating each other!" >.>

[schnebbles]

That is horrible Ali! I can't believe the workers would say that. (well, yes, I can).

I ran across another pic of a snake eating itself and it was different than the one I saw before. It must happen? Probably so extremely rare but I wonder how they get the snakes tail out of it's mouth or if they can?

[hypnoctopus]

I probably wouldn't buy any animal from a pet store, but honestly, of the maybe 5 Petcos/Petsmarts I've been to, all of their baby corns have been one snake to one enclosure. And although I've never asked what they're feeding them, there are never any crickets in the cages with them.

[v00kimba00v]

I probably wouldn't buy any animal from a pet store, but honestly, of the maybe 5 Petcos/Petsmarts I've been to, all of their baby corns have been one snake to one enclosure.


I don't know what what Petco you're going to, everyone I've been to has at least 4-5 hatchlings in a tank together. Checked the other day at my local Petco and I counted 9. Most were just heads sticking out of the tanbark they have in there for substrate, who know how many others were in there that I couldn't see. I really don't see the point of cramming that many in there when they have 3-4 empty tanks at any given time. and Chico is a small town, there is no way they'll sell that many in any reasonable amount of time.

[ratsncorns]

I was at an expo a few weeks ago and one of the vendors had a deli with two hatchling corns in it... well, had. One of them was in the process of eating the other. All the guy had to say was that it was strange they were eating each other because only lavender corns do that apparently (these were two normals). Ummm ok? He was obviously clueless.

[Christen]

:roflmao:I can not believe that.:roflmao:

[AliCat37]

I was only in there to snoop around to see what they had and pick up some crickets. I'll never get a reptile from them, the last time I was in there they had baby frilled lizards in a beardie set up and the manager told me they could live in a 55 gallon tank. *facepalm* They've also told friends of mine to keep their ball pythons on cedar. Once again, I'm not naming names, but I've gotten better advice from Petsmart and Petco. I hope the little cannibal is going to survive, though he may have already been dead by the time I found him.

[Hillybean]

Pretty much all the chain pet shops in my area co-hab. The only one that doesn't is Pet Supplies Plus, which is where I got my first snake from.

Yep, I have paid $50 for shipping for two snakes. It was a big box too, but when I opened it up they shared a small deli cup. I was very up set by it because the box was so big it could have fit several deli cups. There was no need for it. I got lucky and the two have done fine (separated now of course).

[MegF.]

There are so many reasons not to co-hab and none I can think of to do it. It's purely for the human and not the snake. I've hunted snakes in the wild for a very long time and I've never found more than one at a time. Rattlesnakes den up for winter and then move on in the spring. They come together to mate in the fall before hibernating. Corns come together in the spring once they are out of hibernation, garters come together for breeding and then you won't find a pair together following that. In Europe they co-hab. I have to think it's because it's what someone told them to do so they do it. England has only a few native species of snake and I'm sure that they don't live in groups. If nothing else, spread of disease should turn people off of keeping multiple snakes together. Even if you have a large heat area in your cage with multiple hides, I guarantee the temperatures are not the same in each hide. They are sharing what to them is ideal temperature. Zoos tend to co-habitate because they have limited space to display a lot of species. Doesn't make it good for the snakes. They also tend to have HUGE display areas not just small cages like most of us have. I keep large naturalistic cages and every snake has a separate cage. I will not sell a baby to someone who is going to co-habitate..I think it's that bad for the animal. If you can find me a species that is routinely found together in the wild all the time, please let us know. For all the field herping I've done, I've yet to see it and I've never found more than one snake under a hiding area...not even two different species. I'm sure people co-habitate and don't seem to have any problems. I remember years ago someone had posted about how they had been keeping two corns together that seemed to be doing fine, but they decided to give them each a separate cage. The change in the one snake after being placed by itself was dramatic. It's feeding habits improved, it was more active and it generally began thriving better. They did not realize how stressed the animal was until it wasn't anymore. What seemed to be fine really wasn't although there weren't overt signs of distress. Personally I don't think the thread will change minds...maybe...but those who feel that co-habitating is great will continue to do so and those that don't will find this thread justifies the reasons. I could do the same for quarantine. Some people do, some don't but I can tell you horror stories about people who have had disaster when they didn't. This thread might help new owners make a decision one way or another though.

[Tiaret]

The petco here in my town actually has it on the cornsnake cage that they can be kept together without any problems. All the "reptile experts" there are adamant about being able to cohab cornsnakes. It wasn't until I found this forum that I learned of the risks involved. I am in the process of separating the two that I brought home two weeks ago. I have the second tank, but I am waiting on my second uth and thermostat to get here from amazon. I have to admit though I would have never have guessed that they prefer to be alone, had I not learned it here. My two babies are always curled up together, and I have them in a 20 gallon long with plenty of hides. After reading all the horror stories here though, I'm totally paranoid now! My order should be here Tuesday so hopefully nothing happens between now and then.

[AliCat37]

Yep, a lot of people believe that them curling up is them cuddling, but it is a form of competition that could lead to all sorts of nasties! Trust me, they'll be so much happier when the rest of your stuff comes in and they live separately! :)

[schnebbles]

They do look like they enjoy each other, but I came here and found out quickly that it's a bad idea.

[SnakeAround]

Why is it that because snakes are rarely found together in the wild, people assume that they would feel horrible being together? I have not ever witnessed a fight for a spot in my vivs, or snakes being chased or being spooked out, would that not be expected to happen if they really hate being at the same spot together? Ok, they don't feel the need to be together in the wild, that's obvious but that does not 100% sure mean they hate being together in one enclosure/spot. I refuse to believe that co-habbed snakes really need to be in the same spot at the same moment all the time, yet they do not because they hate to be together in one spot. Some are not fed at the same time so why would their wiring tell them to go look for a certain temperature at the same time? From experience I think that most corns just don't care, but some do. If I find that a co-habbed corn skips meals or just does not grow as fast as the regular corn, I separate it to see if that makes it eat or grow better. If so, I won't co-hab it again. I have a very skittish corn, that I expect to not like being co-habbed, also if I have to take her out, it would stress out the other corn so I don't co-hab her. Also, most males are separated after one of them bred for the first time since from that moment they show dominating behavior if being put together. But as long as they are not bred, they are fine together.

Here in Europe people co-hab because they see others do it without problems. And you know what, I have heared so many cases of really uneducated people co-habbing pairs (or more snakes) finding clutches year after year and no problems what so ever with egg binding and such. Sometimes I see ads mentioning 3 year old co-habbed pairs having had clutches 2 years in a row... no problems at all... and many of them don't even look like they are 3 years old anyway size wise or they are humongous because they are over fed. Yet we as educated breeders waiting for appropiate size and such are confronted with egg binding more than we would expect. That does frustrate me to be honest, since most people over here are educated in corn care and try to make the best decisions and take precautions to prevent problems.

For me a reason to co-hab, is to be able to keep more snakes, indeed. Other breeders, like most American breeders, choose to put them in racks in drawers without anything to climb on, sometimes even without a hide. Some even minimize the floor surface to be able to keep more snakes, below what I consider reasonable. My co-habbed snakes have way more floor space than many rack kept corns and can climb stuff, which many actually do, especially juveniles. Further I have noticed that many of my corns, including some co-habbed ones, hang out behind the glass a lot, looking at the world. Somehow they seem to appreciate that, e.g. it might be good for them (stimulating?). In racks they can't do that. What is the best way to keep more snakes? I think that question is more fair to ask than: why is co-habbing worse than not co-habbing? Of course there are keepers who do not co-hab and do not put hem in racks, and have spacious vivs, which undoubtedly are the best type of keeper, of course. Yet, most of the keepers are not like that.

Maybe people have to accept that some people prefer co-habbing (in larger vivs) above (small) racks and others prefer (small) racks without anything to climb on or anything stimulating going on.

I still wonder why I see some American breeders keeping hatchlings together until they shed while most cases of cannibalism occur in young hatchlings? I have mentioned this multiple times in discussions about this topic but nobody ever said; you are right, that is weird. Personally I co-hab but not until they are large enough to be moved to a viv, which is usually when they are about half a year old, to avoid co-habbing during the period when cannibalism is most likely to appear.

I hope some people which are very much against co-habbing are willing to seriously react to the above, since I have posted this view on the discussion many times but never had anybody do that, though I do think I have some interesting questions, like why I don't see any fight or such going on between co-habbed snakes. Even people who dare to call co-habbing animal abuse, have nothing factual or scientifical to prove their case, only some examples from their own experiences, showing that snakes do better when separated and their logic, which in my opinion is just personal logic, but not facts or science. I do agree some do better when separated, but for any case they present telling a snake does better when separated, I can put multiple showing that co-habbed snakes thrive, or cases in which non co-habbed snakes do have problems. I have co-habbed yearlings twice the size most American yearlings have, I was told many times that German and Dutch juveniles are way large... yet most of us co-hab. Really easy to make up some logic that co-habbing stimulates them to grow larger... but since I have not done any research, I don't dare to say so.

We have to realize that people see prove of what they think is true in everyday life, yet anyone with another opinion sees proves for maybe even the opposite view. Calling people animal abusers based on this biased look at keeping corns, is just not right. I don't call people keeping snakes in racks animal abusers, though I have as much cases and logic available to 'proof my case' if I choose to think they are facts. Let us except that all serious breeders/keepers attempt to do their best but have different views, so none of them should be called abusers or be bothered by people with a different view.

[SnakeAround]

Yep, a lot of people believe that them curling up is them cuddling, but it is a form of competition that could lead to all sorts of nasties! Trust me, they'll be so much happier when the rest of your stuff comes in and they live separately! :)

Please show me some serious data to proof that.

[Shiari]

Since you want the data, how about you set up the expiriment to create it? Cohab say... 20 pairs of corns, male+female and 20 pairs female+female and 20 pairs male+male in 20 gallon tanks and/or 30+ quart bins, and record weight each month and behaviour every day. Also have 20 males housed singly and 20 females housed singly. In three years, post the information. We'll see ya then.

If there's only ONE heat spot, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to it. If there's only one or two hides, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to them. Competition amongst reptiles is not going to look like competition amongst mammals or even birds.

Basically encouraging newbies to risk their snakes simply because *some* people have had okay experiences with cohabbing is unethical for the hobby.

[schnebbles]

Then why do you suppose one snake would eat the other?

I have read of that too many times. I would be horrible to have happen, for both snakes involved.

Someone here told me that some snakes were purchased at a show, send home together in a deli cup and on the drive home, one ate the other.

I can't see why you would want to risk that happening. I do agree, to US, it seems like they are totally fine co-habbed UNTIL something goes wrong.

I'm not experienced but this is all what I have read here and I don't believe anyone would make up such horror stories. I'm sure that many snakes do live co-habbed without the misfortune of anything horrible, but I've decided it's not worth any risk to my snakes. And you'll just never know until something does happen, if you're lucky, it won't.

[SnakeAround]

Since you want the data, how about you set up the expiriment to create it? Cohab say... 20 pairs of corns, male+female and 20 pairs female+female and 20 pairs male+male in 20 gallon tanks and/or 30+ quart bins, and record weight each month and behaviour every day. Also have 20 males housed singly and 20 females housed singly. In three years, post the information. We'll see ya then.

If there's only ONE heat spot, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to it. If there's only one or two hides, the snakes are going to have to compete for access to them. Competition amongst reptiles is not going to look like competition amongst mammals or even birds.

Basically encouraging newbies to risk their snakes simply because *some* people have had okay experiences with cohabbing is unethical for the hobby.

I do not encourage newbies, I only don't like that some people act like co-habbing is animal abuse without any data to support that. I don't feel the need to convince people that I am right, but many anti co-habbers do, if they want to impress me, they have to show me facts, not personal logic.
Actually I do have proof of many cases of co-habbing not gone wrong when it comes to cannibalism and pairs. Since it would be goofy to have a test group for that of snakes which are not co-habbed, I did do that part of the research. Of course, there is a tiny risk of cannibalism and problems with juvenile pregnancy involved, but since most of known cases happened to hatchlings, which I don't co-hab, and I do not put pairs together knowingly, I feel pretty safe about it.

Actually, I tell newby's about the risks and why many people are against it and I advice to get some experience with non co-habbed corns first and than decide if you want to co-hab. That's the best I can do in a country where they'll see people co-hab all the time. Why would they believe me if I'd be very fermly against it? They might think I'm exaggerating since I cannot provide them any data about it or tell about many cases of cannibalism or juvenile pregnancy's gone wrong. Where'd my credibility be? I do also tell them to not put pairs together for longer than until their second or even better their first breeding season and to put them back together if they want to when the female is large enough. And that co-habbing pairs can put much stress on the female during the breeding season, the same goes for males. You'd be surprised about the somewhat dissappointed looks on many of their faces, since they never thought about these things.

Again, no reaction to my opinion that co-habbing should be compared with racks instead of not co-habbing. I wonder if you use racks with drawers, Shiari?

By the way, I did have a disease in my collection a couple of years ago, when I did not co-hab since I had a rack (closed back, no room between shelves and sides) with drawers because I was told co-habbing is a very bad thing to do and I wanted more snakes. You know where all but one casualties (the first casualty) where housed? In the drawers... but the first to show symptoms actually was a non co-habbed male in a wooden viv, I still have no idea where it came from, since it did not start in the rack and I had not gotten a new snake recently, I did not even have the rack when the first snake started to show symptoms. Maybe the disease spreads faster in a rack with drawers? I am not implying anything, just showing how easily cause and effect can be made up applying 'logic'.

[MysticExotics]

I know plenty of people who cohab with no problems.

I don't recommend it to newbies, but if someone who's got some experience in recognizing signs of stress, etc, I'm certainly not going to tell them that they're wrong in doing so.

That's a really good point about disease spreading faster in a rack system, it makes sense.

[SnakeAround]

Then why do you suppose one snake would eat the other?

Most expectedly because they think they are food, not because of competition. Snakes don't even kill and eat rodents nibbling them when left alone together for feeding purposes. So I really don't expect a corn to eat another corn so it can be at the spot it wants to be.

[MegF.]

I would like to address the subject of co-habbing so you can have more or for that matter, putting in so many cages that you are using up floor space as was mentioned. I breed snakes. I keep them in separate cages that measure 36 X 18 X 14 for the smaller species and young of larger species and I keep adult arboreals in 48 X 24 X 24 cages. Babies of any species are kept in a rack in shoebox sized containers...separately. I've never, ever co-habbed babies at any time. I need to have numbers and keep track of when they shed etc. If I have no more space, I have no more snakes...period. I will not risk the health of my snakes because I WANT. Never! I keep my snakes in naturalistic cages with plenty of space because I feel that it is important for them to have that. I was at the show today and was talking to a couple that were looking at some of my hatchinglings. They had bought a pair from a petstore some years before and were told it was okay to co-habitate them. The male eventually died because he didn't want to eat and obviously was stressed. They didn't know. Again: There are no good reasons to cohabitate. NONE except for the benefit of the human. There are many, many reasons not to.

[SnakeAround]

I would like to address the subject of co-habbing so you can have more or for that matter, putting in so many cages that you are using up floor space as was mentioned. I breed snakes. I keep them in separate cages that measure 36 X 18 X 14 for the smaller species and young of larger species and I keep adult arboreals in 48 X 24 X 24 cages. Babies of any species are kept in a rack in shoebox sized containers...separately. I've never, ever co-habbed babies at any time. I need to have numbers and keep track of when they shed etc. If I have no more space, I have no more snakes...period. I will not risk the health of my snakes because I WANT. Never! I keep my snakes in naturalistic cages with plenty of space because I feel that it is important for them to have that. I was at the show today and was talking to a couple that were looking at some of my hatchinglings. They had bought a pair from a petstore some years before and were told it was okay to co-habitate them. The male eventually died because he didn't want to eat and obviously was stressed. They didn't know. Again: There are no good reasons to cohabitate. NONE except for the benefit of the human. There are many, many reasons not to.

Do you think there are benefits to housing adults in drawers in racks, compared to naturalistic vivs? How do you know the snake died of stress from being co-habbed? Maybe it was just not meant to be and would have died anyway, like some do that are housed alone... you assume he did because you are biased. It might have been the cause, but you bring it as a fact. What would you say if a snake refused to eat in one of your vivs and I'd say; I co-hab snakes and they do eat, it died because you housed it alone?

As I said multiple times, not co-habbing and not keeping them in drawers is the best way to go, obviously. But I'm pretty sure many breeders which are against co-habbing, do keep snakes in drawers. IMO that has disadvantages compared to keeping them in spacious groups too, yet they do.

Are there any good reasons to keep and breed snakes at all, except for the benefit of ourselves? Of course not, but we just draw the lines at different places.

[MegF.]

Nope, no benefits to housing in drawers and I don't do it. How do you quarantine if you cohab? If you do quarantine new animals, then they are in separate cages and presumably a different area all together. Therefore you must have space. I've never had a non feeder in adults (except at breeding time), only babies and that's only been 3 out of hundreds. I know that people have removed snakes from cohabbing situations and had them thrive where they didn't before. I've never heard of anyone putting them together to make them thrive. I was merely stating a fact that this guy's two snakes did not do well. One did all right, the other did not. It never had a chance to see if it would do better alone or not because someone told him it was fine. Obviously something was not. Yours are doing okay but I can tell you that you are raising snakes that are indigenous to this country and I live where they are found naturally. I am telling you that I have NEVER found a cornsnake or any other species of snake together. It's not natural and it makes no sense if you look at it. Food is hard to come by. Snakes generally hunt for weeks for food before finding it. Two snakes in the same area compete for single prey items. Not a good idea. Spreading out and staying away from each other makes the chances of each finding food better. They don't hunt in packs so there's no benefit to staying together. They don't fight off predators together so there's no benefit for protection. If you choose to cohabitate...do it. I personally don't think it's in the animals' best interest. As for breeding...sure, it's for us. It's also so that I don't have to go out in the wild and further decimate the population so that YOU can have a pet cornsnake. I can breed them here and provide healthy captive babies for the next child or adult who would like to enjoy wonders of snakes. I also keep extremely rare snakes that would not be found outside their native countries if I didn't try to breed them in captivity to make them accessible. There are more reasons than just making money at it.

[SnakeAround]

Yet breeding (rare) snakes to provide them to others is for the interest of people, and you also do it because you want something; protect the wild snakes. Of course it is a noble goal, yet it is your goal and it makes you feel good. Not saying that is a bad thing to do and it is a better reason to breed than just for commerce or because you feel like it, but it is not for the snakes benefit only. (I do believe people do anything they do for themselves but that is a different topic)

Of course in the wild there is no benefit for corns to get together, yet in captivity they do not have to fight off predators and they do not have to compete for food. Maybe their instincts still tell them to avoid others, but as long as they are well fed and save, they might just as well feel ok around other snakes. Why don't they desperately try to avoid each other all the time when put together? When I introduce two snakes, I hardly see any sign they really want to avoid each other. Many times the one introduced in the viv of another one gets into the hide the other one is after a short exploration of the viv. Never saw any sign of a fight going on.

Thanks for saying you actually don't know why the co-habbed snake died.

I do quarantine but in the same room. I do have single housed corns, so if I plan to buy a yearling or adult I re-home a single housed snake and put the new one in its viv. I use Herpteks, they have no gaps and I clean/feed/change their water after I have done the rest so I think that is safe enough. Of course quarantaining in another room would be perfect but I am not perfect. You are closer to being a perfect keeper, I do admit that.

I admit that some snakes thrive better when housed alone. I won't try to co-hab a single housed fussy eater though since it might have a virus after all.

What about many people saying these Dutch/German yearlings are so large? Are you able to consider the thought maybe the whole 'competition' thing might actually stimulate them to grow faster instead of stressing them out? We don't feed them more often, actually I don't feed my hatchlings every 4-5 days as many American people seem to do. Something must cause the accelarated growing.

[MegF.]

I hadn't heard about the Dutch/German snakes being larger. I don't feed as often so mine stay smaller for longer but I've found it depends upon the morph. My locality animals were always larger than any other morphs excepting my amels and snows. It's possible that outcrossing occurs more often in Europe. Here in the US Rhodesian Ridgebacks are consistantly larger than the S. African ones mostly because we outcross so much. Makes for larger animals. Snakes don't avoid each other because they can't in a viv. There is a hide....there are two animals that need it. Perhaps competition does increase size. In the wild the one that can't compete dies so the larger stronger animals survive. That's survival of the fittest so perhaps you have something there. You don't change genetic instinct though. If your cornsnake got loose tomorrow it would survive if temperatures remained in the levels it needs. Even snakes fed f/t prey know how to hunt live. That doesn't go away. No more than raising a wolf in captivity reduces the instincts of the wolf. I just think that animals adapt to situations. Some do better than others at it and some species are hardier and able to deal with it better as well. I think in this case, we'll agree to disagree and keep the thread in the spirit of what it began as. A thread about things that have happened to people who have co-habitated.

[SnakeAround]

In that case; I co-hab and nothing happened to me :p

[MegF.]

Sounds like a support group! Hi, I'm Snake Around....and I'm a co-habber....but nothing happened! LOL!

[SnakeAround]

Hehe you nasty :p

[kells]

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok, my girls are housed together so far, if i see that they dont eat or it seems that they have some problem, i will separate them. In Croatia, snake dont often co-habit, all species where kept on their own, but corn snakes are often kept together, females mainly.

[airenlow]

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok...

Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[starsevol]

Hehe you nasty :p

Im co-habiting too, breeder who raised my girls have a group of corns housed together, 4 years old mother of my girls, two females one year old, and 4 young ones, she have baby ball python who often curls with her oldest corn, they doesnt seems to mind about each other, eat and grow ok, my girls are housed together so far, if i see that they dont eat or it seems that they have some problem, i will separate them. In Croatia, snake dont often co-habit, all species where kept on their own, but corn snakes are often kept together, females mainly.

Well well well since this thread started nearly a year ago, SnakeAround can no longer say that nothing has happened, as she had a death that a few of us feel was a direct result of co habbing. Then she showed some pics of her set up, and the vivs shown were large enough to house ONE animal comfortably.

Kells, I just don't know what to say. The breeder you got your animals from really is not a good keeper if she is keeping that many together in a cage, unless the cage she is using is as big as a bedroom. You say you are housing a snake and a ball python together, and that they seem fine. Since corn snakes and ball pythons come from different parts of the world, and require totally different temps and humidity, keeping them together means that one or both of your snakes are not having even their BASIC needs met. They should be seperated at once, keeping them in one cage is being cruel to one or both of them. Also, you say you see no problem with the snakes you keep together. Well that is wonderful, but in nature an animal that is sick or stressed often shows no signs because a sign of weakness means instant death. And stress is a silent killer. The enviroment your snakes are forced to live in is probably shortening their lives. They will most likely die much sooner than they should.

[starsevol]

I reread Kells post and it seems I misread that part about the corn snake and the ball python living together. It is the BREEDER she got her animals from who does that. Obviously, that "breeder" does not know very much about snakes AT ALL and anyone wanting a snake as a pet should run away from that "breeder" as fast as they can.

[kells]

I just told how her keeps her snakes, i dont know why should anybody answer in sarcastic way, i think that if someone have something to say it should write , but puting a smilie just to coment it look a bit imature :(

[MegF.]

I woud have to agree with Bethany.....keeping any snakes together except for breeding purposes is not healthy for them...keeping completely different species together that require different things is even worse....I can see disaster in the future....Aside from the chance of the disease spread....indiscriminate breeding over and over again will kill a female off. I always give females at least 2 years off between breedings. Occasionally I've bred two years in a row, but never more than that, and only if the female recovered well.

[Christen]

To be honest I don't see anything sarcastic about Starevols comment. She is right. Ball Pythons and corns require very different housing and if the "breeder" doesn't know this then I would have serious doubts about the breeder.

[starsevol]

I just told how her keeps her snakes, i dont know why should anybody answer in sarcastic way, i think that if someone have something to say it should write , but puting a smilie just to coment it look a bit imature :(

Actually Airenlow's smilie responce was trying to be nice compared to what he was really thinking I am sure.

Yes, you told us how she keeps her snakes. NO SNAKES should EVER be kept that way. It is a horrible way to keep snakes. And she is a breeder, someone who should KNOW better!!

If she really does keep her snakes that way, she should not be keeping snakes at all, nevermind breeding them!!

[kells]

She put her ball sometimes with corns, i would do something like that with my snakes, my ball is in her own terrarium, in europe, it is custom to co-habits the corns, same sex pairs or group of females in large enclousure, other species are housed on their own, but corns are often co-habiting

[starsevol]

She put her ball sometimes with corns, i would do something like that with my snakes, my ball is in her own terrarium, in europe, it is custom to co-habits the corns, same sex pairs or group of females in large enclousure, other species are housed on their own, but corns are often co-habiting

It might be a custom, but it is a BAD custom.
But they are your snakes, you will do what you want.
But what you are doing is not good for them at all.
I feel really sad for them.

[kells]

Actually Airenlow's smilie responce was trying to be nice compared to what he was really thinking I am sure.

Yes, you told us how she keeps her snakes. NO SNAKES should EVER be kept that way. It is a horrible way to keep snakes. And she is a breeder, someone who should KNOW better!!

If she really does keep her snakes that way, she should not be keeping snakes at all, nevermind breeding them!!

she referd about that vivarium, as a experiment, she is a friend of a friend so i didnt bought them, my girls were gift to me

[starsevol]

she referd about that vivarium, as a experiment, she is a friend of a friend so i didnt bought them, my girls were gift to me

Snakes are living breathing creatures that can feel stress and pain, she does not need to be playing scientist with them!!
But like I said, they are your snakes to harm.

[kells]

i think that vivarium is a better option for snake than small racks, it is interesting how in my country people judge keeping snakes in the racks, and on the other hand, keeping them in that way is aceptable in your country, i can ashure you that nobody in our forums and among snake keepers that i know, didnt have any problem with co-habitated corns. Is it because they kept in big vivariums with lots of hiding and klimbing spots, or just pure luck, i really dont know. I have female ball python , 3 years old, she was my first snake, i didnt have corns until few weeks , but all breeders here co-habits corns, not all of them. Nobody have problems with snakes, only mature males were kept solitary. Im not trying to make this sound ok or right thing to do, i just talk about experience that our breeders and keepers have here.

[Weda737]

Weda's 2 cents. First of all, I typically do not cohab but until I get moved in about a month I'm keeping a pair of adult breeding sized corns together, my male I raised from a baby, 7 yrs old. And a 3 year old 300+g female I hatched out myself. They are separated when fed and left apart until that crazy feeding response calms down and they both just want to curl up and digest. They have only been together a couple months and will be separated again when I get moved. I just don't want you guys to think I'm hiding anything. But here's my little fun fact, I used to breed betta fish and in one of the books I read another breeder raised their betta fry with guppy fry and noticed a big difference in the growth of those bettas compared to fish raised alone. Not that I condone cohabbing, but I read a few pages back something about size difference and it just made me think of it. I'm full of random thoughts. I personally set my babies up in tubs separated as quick as they come out of their eggs.

[starsevol]

i think that vivarium is a better option for snake than small racks, it is interesting how in my country people judge keeping snakes in the racks, and on the other hand, keeping them in that way is aceptable in your country, i can ashure you that nobody in our forums and among snake keepers that i know, didnt have any problem with co-habitated corns. Is it because they kept in big vivariums with lots of hiding and klimbing spots, or just pure luck, i really dont know. I have female ball python , 3 years old, she was my first snake, i didnt have corns until few weeks , but all breeders here co-habits corns, not all of them. Nobody have problems with snakes, only mature males were kept solitary. Im not trying to make this sound ok or right thing to do, i just talk about experience that our breeders and keepers have here.

You are not going to listen to anyone, so do what you want. How big is your viv?

[kells]

She put her ball sometimes with corns, i would do something like that with my snakes, my ball is in her own terrarium, in europe, it is custom to co-habits the corns, same sex pairs or group of females in large enclousure, other species are housed on their own, but corns are often co-habiting

sorry, i must corect myself, i aimed to write that i would not do something like that to my snakes- i didnt realize that before

[MegF.]

I'm curious as to why someone thinks that cornsnakes are okay to cohabitate and other species are not. I live in South Carolina where cornsnakes are found....I have not found one species of snake-corns included-that were found together. I always found one snake at a time. For the most part there are no species of snake that lives together. Rattlesnakes may den up together (and that's not all species) in fall in order to make the most of a den site in cold weather but soon disperse once they come out of hibernation. Garters gather together in huge numbers for breeding but once it's over, they are on their own. It is not natural for snakes to live together and before someone pipes in with it's not natural to keep them in a cage either...you are correct...but why create that added stress of not only caging but keeping cage mates that are neither wanted nor desired. And..when you say same sex, I could probably find a few hundred posts without even working at it, about accidental breedings by "same sex" snakes. Two males together are asking for fights as well..especially if you have females in the room.

[kells]

Corn vivarium is L-1m, W-50cm , H- 80 cm , they are young and small , if they stay together, they will get much bigger, because i love animal housing to look nice, with wood, some plants and glass, so i could see them when they are not in hide spots

[starsevol]

I'm curious as to why someone thinks that cornsnakes are okay to cohabitate and other species are not. I live in South Carolina where cornsnakes are found....I have not found one species of snake-corns included-that were found together. I always found one snake at a time. For the most part there are no species of snake that lives together. Rattlesnakes may den up together (and that's not all species) in fall in order to make the most of a den site in cold weather but soon disperse once they come out of hibernation. Garters gather together in huge numbers for breeding but once it's over, they are on their own. It is not natural for snakes to live together and before someone pipes in with it's not natural to keep them in a cage either...you are correct...but why create that added stress of not only caging but keeping cage mates that are neither wanted nor desired. And..when you say same sex, I could probably find a few hundred posts without even working at it, about accidental breedings by "same sex" snakes. Two males together are asking for fights as well..especially if you have females in the room.


I would love to know the answer to that as well. Why do some people think that cornsnakes ok to co hab while other snakes aren't?

And I know all about accidental breedings by "same sex" snakes kept together. I have a dead female to show for it too......

[kells]

I dont know, i just wrote that im first time corn owner, im not zoologist, i know that people here keeps corns together, females mainly, and i mean females, i didnt hear that female can make other female pregnent, death female is result of missexing i supose

[starsevol]

I dont know, i just wrote that im first time corn owner, im not zoologist, i know that people here keeps corns together, females mainly, and i mean females, i didnt hear that female can make other female pregnent, death female is result of missexing i supose

Well yes they were mis sexed, but if they were not kept together that female would not be dead.

And corns are just like other snakes. They do not gather together in nature, and they should not be kept together in captivity. It is not natural for them.

Why do people over there think that corns are not like other snakes and can be kept together when it is not true?

[AliCat37]

Young and small = worse problems than adults cohabbed. That cage is about a good enough size for a single adult corn.

[kells]

it should be fine for a year or so, i will make them something bigger when they grow, if i separate them, one will stay in that vivarium and for another i will make similar to this one, i do not have space for two much larger vivariums

[Weda737]

Babies do seem to be much worse for cannibalism, just sayin' when I was just starting out and didn't know about using tubs I cohabbed hatchlings and several times I had to separate one from another's mouth, luckily none were hurt. That was only with one clutch. One single clutch and several instances of attempted cannibalism.

[SnakeAround]

Well well well since this thread started nearly a year ago, SnakeAround can no longer say that nothing has happened, as she had a death that a few of us feel was a direct result of co habbing. Then she showed some pics of her set up, and the vivs shown were large enough to house ONE animal comfortably.

I just wanted to describe the situation so people can form their opinion themself. I put a corn accidentally in a kingsnake vivs and the corn was eaten by the king. It could happen because I usually close the glass sliding doors of a viv because there is another snake in it and/or I want to keep in the warmth. Now I remove the keys from the locks of my kings as a 'wake up' should I want to open it accidentally when they are in it and feed them last so it can not happen again. Starsevol sees this as a direct result of co-habbing since if there would have been one snake in a cage, I could have left any viv open when a snake is taken out and could not have made the mistake. I do understand her reasoning, but to me that is indirect and not direct, further I have introduced a new habit to prevent it.

Still, over here my vivs are considered big enough for co-habbing, as is my viw with my two boa constrictors (of which I decided to sell one because she is harassed by her cage mate now and than). Those are just different opinions/habits over here. If it would be so bad for our snakes, resulting in illnesses or deaths, I'm pretty sure the habits would have changed by now.

[SnakeAround]

i think that vivarium is a better option for snake than small racks, it is interesting how in my country people judge keeping snakes in the racks, and on the other hand, keeping them in that way is aceptable in your country, i can ashure you that nobody in our forums and among snake keepers that i know, didnt have any problem with co-habitated corns. Is it because they kept in big vivariums with lots of hiding and klimbing spots, or just pure luck, i really dont know. I have female ball python , 3 years old, she was my first snake, i didnt have corns until few weeks , but all breeders here co-habits corns, not all of them. Nobody have problems with snakes, only mature males were kept solitary. Im not trying to make this sound ok or right thing to do, i just talk about experience that our breeders and keepers have here.

I have told about this so many times, it will allways be a topic we won't agree about, though some USA people do see the difference between monitored co-habbing in large vivs versus squishing a handfull of snakes in a viv that is way too small without quarantine or any idea what a stressed snake would look like.

[kells]

I have told about this so many times, it will allways be a topic we won't agree about, though some USA people do see the difference between monitored co-habbing in large vivs versus squishing a handfull of snakes in a viv that is way too small without quarantine or any idea what a stressed snake would look like.

i didnt have to quarantine my snakes because they both came from same source, so their vivarium is their quarantine cage. I think that my girls have more space in their viv than lots adult snakes in smal racks

[starsevol]

I have told about this so many times, it will allways be a topic we won't agree about, though some USA people do see the difference between monitored co-habbing in large vivs versus squishing a handfull of snakes in a viv that is way too small without quarantine or any idea what a stressed snake would look like.

If you actually HAD a large viv that might be another story.....the vivs you posted are large enough for ONE snake to be comfortable.
Knock racks all you want but over here our snakes have lots of space to stretch out and no stress from cagemates they wouldn't go near if they were given a choice......

[SnakeAround]

My snakes can stretch and have some stuff to climb on too. Further they do have a choice to avoid a cage mate, each viv has multiple warm spots and hides. Yet, they are in the same hides and spots a lot. If they would really hate to come in contact with cage mates, they would choose different spots much more of the time I think. But this discussion won't eve stop and I am pretty sure hardly anything will change in the general consensus both in the USA and in Europe. I have been in the hobby since 2005 and so far co-habbing is still not frowned upon in Europe, whilst many are against using tubs in general.

[starsevol]

My snakes can stretch and have some stuff to climb on too. Further they do have a choice to avoid a cage mate, each viv has multiple warm spots and hides. Yet, they are in the same hides and spots a lot. If they would really hate to come in contact with cage mates, they would choose different spots much more of the time I think. But this discussion won't eve stop and I am pretty sure hardly anything will change in the general consensus both in the USA and in Europe. I have been in the hobby since 2005 and so far co-habbing is still not frowned upon in Europe, whilst many are against using tubs in general.

And I have been in the hobby since 1995 (with rosy boas) and 1996 (with corn snakes) and I have seen pics you posted of your vivs!! Just big enough for a snake to avoid it's own poop, but definately not big enough for 2!!! Tubs are spacious, lightweight and easy to clean. I don't know about *all* european snake keepers, but I do know that you're doing it wrong!!

[Christen]

I am just tired of us getting accused look down upon for racks when our housing is actually larger. My cohab tank is 110 gals!! Not 20 or 30. My rake system has clear tubs that have multiple hides and things to climb on and they are individually house in a size that you cohab. Don't give me the crap saying your snakes have more room and more enriched environments. All of my snakes are housed in 20 to 55 gal size houses except babies who have 10 gal and you know what? When I run out of room I don't get more snakes. I don't cohab for my benefit.

[BloodyBaroness]

I am just tired of us getting accused look down upon for racks when our housing is actually larger. My cohab tank is 110 gals!! Not 20 or 30. My rack system has clear tubs that have multiple hides and things to climb on and they are individually house in a size that you cohab. Don't give me the crap saying your snakes have more room and more enriched environments. All of my snakes are housed in 20 to 55 gal size houses except babies who have 10 gal and you know what? When I run out of room I don't get more snakes. I don't cohab for my benefit.

Those are the two biggest points!

The space my adults have in a rack system is larger than to cohab vivs I've seen. Plus, if I don't have space to house them properly, I don't get another animal. Period.

I NOT will jam animals into far to small cages with other animals just so I can own more.

Don't even get me started on keeping two different species together. That is pinnacle of ridiculous. No one with a bit of sense would keep reptiles from two totally different habitats together. You are not giving either species what it needs. Sure they can live like that for a while, but will start to see a decline in long term health and life span. I have zero respect for anyone who does that.

[starsevol]

I am just tired of us getting accused look down upon for racks when our housing is actually larger. My cohab tank is 110 gals!! Not 20 or 30. My rake system has clear tubs that have multiple hides and things to climb on and they are individually house in a size that you cohab. Don't give me the crap saying your snakes have more room and more enriched environments. All of my snakes are housed in 20 to 55 gal size houses except babies who have 10 gal and you know what? When I run out of room I don't get more snakes. I don't cohab for my benefit.

Tell me about it!!! And as far as "oh well I am soooo experianced I can tell when MYYYYYY cohabbed snakes are stressed, IIIIIII know what I am doing"...when she has 2 crammed together boas that are CLEARLY stressed and giving off warning signs right and left. Sorry to veer off topic, but it is all the same thing really.

[starsevol]

Those are the two biggest points!

The space my adults have in a rack system is larger than to cohab vivs I've seen. Plus, if I don't have space to house them properly, I don't get another animal. Period.

I NOT will jam animals into far to small cages with other animals just so I can own more.

Don't even get me started on keeping two different species together. That is pinnacle of ridiculous. No one with a bit of sense would keep reptiles from two totally different habitats together. You are not giving either species what it needs. Sure they can live like that for a while, but will start to see a decline in long term health and life span. I have zero respect for anyone who does that.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kells]

Im shure that no one on this forum keep diferent species in the same enclosure , i was talking about lady who raised my corns, something like that is more than stupid, they need diferent microclimate conditions.

[SnakeAround]

I told that I decided to sell a boa, so I do as I say. If you read well, I am not against racks in general, but against drawers compared to co-habbing. If a tub is large enough for climbing stuff and has enough space for some climbing stuff, excellent! I never gave you crap Christen. Still, I do think that experience with co-habbing, adds to the discussion. Why do people who do not co-hab tend to think that their theory on co-habbing being bad over rules the years of experience with it that people have who do co-hab? If practice shows that most corns do well, why is that ignored? I know that some corns seem to do better in tubs than in vivs, maybe some would do better in vivs but are still kept in tubs... Or even in drawers. We have only practice to see what works, we cannot ask the snakes so we can only monitore their behavior and health. Yet when it comes to co-habbing, signs that a snake is doing well don't matter.

[starsevol]

I told that I decided to sell a boa, so I do as I say. If you read well, I am not against racks in general, but against drawers compared to co-habbing. If a tub is large enough for climbing stuff and has enough space for some climbing stuff, excellent! I never gave you crap Christen. Still, I do think that experience with co-habbing, adds to the discussion. Why do people who do not co-hab tend to think that their theory on co-habbing being bad over rules the years of experience with it that people have who do co-hab? If practice shows that most corns do well, why is that ignored? I know that some corns seem to do better in tubs than in vivs, maybe some would do better in vivs but are still kept in tubs... Or even in drawers. We have only practice to see what works, we cannot ask the snakes so we can only monitore their behavior and health. Yet when it comes to co-habbing, signs that a snake is doing well don't matter.

Sorry Barbara, the FACTS are that when snakes are found in the wild, they are ALONE. Because that is how they prefer to live.

You stated that you co hab so that you can keep more snakes. You put your own selfish desires over the welfare of your animals.

You couldn't even see obvious warning signs with those boas so how in the world can you tell whether or not your other cohabbed snakes are doing well?????

[jessicashallperish]

Sharing my story....

i got two baby corns, brothers in trade for my nile monitor. i only had one open tank which was a 20 long until i could go out and buy another that weekend. (they were together for approx 3 days, muuuuch too long IMO) these two snakes were MEAN. not just normal baby mean, they were strike at each other and their reflections mean. as soon as i seperated them, a week later they were tame as sleeping puppies.. that is the only time i have cohabbed and THE ONLY time i WILL EVER cohab unless im breeding. every snake has it's own tub, its own choice of multiple hides etc etc.. i think it is aweful to cohab.. unless there is ample room for EACH snake... like 2 adults in a 180 gallon tank.. that is plenty IMO

just throwing my two cents in.. idk who in their right mind would put balls and corns together SMH. i have nagged at people for having retics and burms together and i will nag at people who keep two different types of frogs together. it is soo stressful and dangerous!. GAH!

[Outcast]

The only time I would ever cohab adult snakes is if I have a 1000 gal stock tank, and it is a dire emergency. Like the house it on fire and I need to get them out of it in a hurry and I can't get all of the tanks out.

[starsevol]

I told that I decided to sell a boa, so I do as I say. If you read well, I am not against racks in general, but against drawers compared to co-habbing. If a tub is large enough for climbing stuff and has enough space for some climbing stuff, excellent! I never gave you crap Christen. Still, I do think that experience with co-habbing, adds to the discussion. Why do people who do not co-hab tend to think that their theory on co-habbing being bad over rules the years of experience with it that people have who do co-hab? If practice shows that most corns do well, why is that ignored? I know that some corns seem to do better in tubs than in vivs, maybe some would do better in vivs but are still kept in tubs... Or even in drawers. We have only practice to see what works, we cannot ask the snakes so we can only monitore their behavior and health. Yet when it comes to co-habbing, signs that a snake is doing well don't matter.

Ok so you DECIDED to sell one of those boas. Have you actually sold it?? Are they at least seperate??
You started that thread because you did not know the sex of the snakes and didn't want them to breed, COMPLETELY oblivious to the fact that they were flashing HUGE danger signals and completey CLUELESS to the fact that the cage they were jammed in was TOO DAMN SMALL!!!!!!!!!! That was considered cruelty by more than just me.....

[Nanci]

The only time I would ever cohab adult snakes is if I have a 1000 gal stock tank, and it is a dire emergency. Like the house it on fire and I need to get them out of it in a hurry and I can't get all of the tanks out.

I <3 you a little bit now, Aaron...

I cohab breeding pairs for 30 minutes every three days.

[Chip]

Yet when it comes to co-habbing, signs that a snake is doing well don't matter.

Signs they are doing well?!? If they aren't visibly doing poorly, they are doing "well!" And by the time they are visibly doing poorly, they are and have been suffering. I am all about experimenting, and will try lots of things: extra hot hot spots, alternative foods, longer brumations, etc. But I can see no benefit what so ever to keeping solitary animals in one enclosure.

[starsevol]

Signs they are doing well?!? If they aren't visibly doing poorly, they are doing "well!" And by the time they are visibly doing poorly, they are and have been suffering. I am all about experimenting, and will try lots of things: extra hot hot spots, alternative foods, longer brumations, etc. But I can see no benefit what so ever to keeping solitary animals in one enclosure.

Exactly what needs to be said!!!!! Thank you so much for finding the words I couldn't!

[MegF.]

I'm not sure that anyone's habits will change in Europe because people tend to do what other's do regardless of the outcome. As a rescuer of dogs I see this everyday...when I trim a horse's feet I hear it everyday "but so and so told me that is how you're supposed to do it". All well and good BUT if you do research (and these snake are indigenous to this country NOT Europe) then you would see that they are NOT found together. I've NEVER found more than one snake at a time except once in Costa Rica where we found two coral snakes in close proximity...turned out they were male and female and we most likely disturbed a mating pair. They were sexed, weighed and turned back where we found them, but for the rest-while we did find some within a few hundred yards of others (not the same species) we never found any together. Due to the research I've done and read about, it is clear to me that snakes are not social creatures and if you think about it, there's a good reason. Food resources. Large numbers of snakes all vying for a lizard, frog, bird or rodent would lead to many, many starving animals. Therefore, spreading out from each other insures at least a moderate chance of everyone getting food at some point. I respect their normal inherent behaviors. Part of the reason I do not feed weekly. Research on my part has shown that snake's digestive tracts are not designed to have food on it all the time. The poop you see today is from food 2 weeks ago, not the meal they just ate so you're adding food on food on food. I've found poop in tubs of snakes being brumated for 3 months. They have something on their stomach obviously in order to go. We are used to seeing fat snakes in captivity and that's not healthy either. If the cornsnake were a European species and they were found in great numbers together in the wild...then by all means....keep them together. but they aren't...and they don't...so don't. Just because you don't THINK there's a problem, doesn't mean there isn't one. I've known several people who co-habbed and noted no problems with their snakes. However, when they separated them, they found that they did much better and the snake they thought was doing okay, began to thrive, get more growth and had a better feeding response. Stress signs can be very, very subtle. For breeding my corns, I place them in a misted tub with each other and monitor them. If they breed, once they are done, they are separated and then reintroduced 3 days later...much like Nanci does. For other species like my green tree pythons, amazon tree boas and my snail eaters, they are kept together for several months until the female ovulates and shows signs of no interest in the male. they won't breed otherwise. After breeding is over though, animals go back to their cages. Females are left alone to lay eggs or have their babies and then they aren't with another male for at least 2 years.

[Outcast]

MegF. You have snail eaters? That is awesome.

[BloodyBaroness]

Signs they are doing well?!? If they aren't visibly doing poorly, they are doing "well!" And by the time they are visibly doing poorly, they are and have been suffering. I am all about experimenting, and will try lots of things: extra hot hot spots, alternative foods, longer brumations, etc. But I can see no benefit what so ever to keeping solitary animals in one enclosure.

Amen brother.

[susang]

I can't compete with what others have said about how wrong co-habbing is. In reading Meg's post I read snail eaters me "Yeah I hate the snails in my back yard and pond can't stand the suckers and the slugs won't even go there". I think wow there's my next snake maybe I let it graze in my back yard, easy peasy feed the snake and get rid of snails. Maybe just catch the snails to feed the snake.
SEE this is how some co-habbers think, I want, I want, I want it's the perfect morph, it's a rescue (I hate that, now that I know better), it's, it's, it's. So I'll put it in with 'mopsy' with another hide and that's all good.
See I could put the snail eater in my yard go out that night and walla fewer snails, yeah. The snake is hiding and digesting, cool. In a few days I see the snake again looks ok. Eventually the snake won't show up again, WHY? because snail eaters need a rain forrest setting and yes I live in PNM and we have rain forrest, but it friggin freezes here. OR it does well I get another and they mulitply and then a species that doesn't belong here is wild.
Consequences people there are always consequences, maybe you don't see it today or tomorrow, but it will happen. We need to take the I want, I need, I am better then the non-co-habbers out of our language. Get over yourself you are not helping these snakes by co-habbing and saying one provides a better set-up, NO set-up is better then nature. Breeders or owners who really love their snakes will do the best they can with what they have, what is best for the snake not what I want. I could go on and on co-habbing is healthy, isn't what the snake would do in nature, they do not fall in love with each other.

[diamondlil]

IOU a rep for that, Su

[susang]

No rep needed I'm just over the co-habbing, live feeding, rescue issues. Sure the threads make good drama and fun reading. It is the snake that is suffering, while I'm laughing or entertaining myself.
I want another snake, many of you know how much. At my age it should be fine, right. No I have to wait and for good reason, because for the next few months I won't be able to care for the snake. So people get over yourself, I'm old enough to say that. You co-hab for your needs/wants, not because it's better for the snake.

[SnakeAround]

We all put snakes in vis for our 'needs', if it is all about the snakes well being, please do not keep snakes at all. I can understand that where you draw the line is different then where I or someons else draws the line in what is good, but I think it is quite weird to act like you all think about the snakes well being only, because than you would not keep them at all or give them all at least a bath tub sized viv. Or maybe double that sizer! Don't act like you are the mother Theresa to your snakes, you do use animals for your own pleasure and keep them in limited space in non natural cages, that is a fact. You do not keep snakes because it is so good for them.

The boa that is harassed now and than by her cage mate, does not show stress signals. If she had stopped eating or had started to shed bad, I would not have co-habbed them. I kept her viv empty for a while so I could separate them if things were not going well but both still did well. I have asked again last week and any Dutch forum member says the viv is neat for two boa's. Yet I am on the look out for a new owner for the smaller one and have put her an ad for her on my FB time line for sale for a low price because I don't want to take a chance with her, since she IS being harassed now and than, I can't deny that and I do not have another suitable viv in case she does start to show stress signals. I will take her with me to the fair to try to sell her. Yet I did not see accute urgenty to separate them. Also because since the last few days the harassing has stopped.

Imagine a corn keeping community you know from the internet would be convinced that your vivs should be twice larger and triangular and tell you are commiting animal cruelty because you are not keeping your corns liek they do. Yet so many fellow keepers in your home community still tell you it is good enough, what would you think/feel? Would you change your mind? Maybe you can at least try to imagine what it would feel like to be talked to the way some people do over here by that imaginary internet community. You have even seen many people in your own country house their snakes beneath what you consider ok so you consider yourself a good keeper, yet according to someoneles standards you are committing animal cruelty. And remember, the snakes still look good, eat good, shed fine and grow as expected. That is my situation now. Honestly, would you change your ways? Would you stay civil all the time? Maybe it is not clear from my posts but I do feel bad because of your reactions, it's not like I think you guys are ridiculous or jerks who want to upset me. It does hurt to be called out for animal cruealty whilst according to the conscensus in your home community you are doing fine. I have always been honest and open about my keeping, showed my vivs before and have always been polite and open to discussion at all times on any subject, yet somehow at the moment people are all over me like I have been dishonest and misleading people or such. I just came here for peoples opinion about my boa's because I value those, even though I was told not to worry about them on a Dutch forum, and about a week later I'm the bad girl of snake keeping and accused of putting crap at you for years for keeping snakes in racks. At least that is what it feels like... Of course we have always had those different opinions but we managed to get along and appreciate each other and share our hobby meanwhile. Maybe some people need to take a deep breath and take a little distance from the subject so they realize my snakes are not rotting away without food or water in dirty cages without extra heat or something... Maybe my ways of keeping provides my snakes with a 7 on a 1 - 10 scale of quality if 10 = realistic giant vivs but it is still more than sufficient.

Further, I do think I might have been wrong in the past to think that racks meant drawers, meant very low spaces. I have come to see in the last two or three years that those drawers are mainly used by large commercial snake breeders, and people over here use higher tubs mostly. That is why I have changed the phrasing of my opinion to that I prefer co-habbing in vivs over solo drawers. I do think that many people over here in Europe do not like racks because they also think that rack means drawers. Maybe all the youtube stuf showing giant snakes stuffed in drawers or vivs that are barely double the height of the inhabitant have added to that idea... how weird.

For what it is worth: I actually have a juvenile that started to eat more enthusiastically (constricting like the prey is alive) than ever before from maybe the 2nd or 3rd feeding after I put her together with another female juvenile. If feeding response is considered a measure for well being... just saying.

Now please all go look at your awesome mark 10 realistic vivs you have in your homes apparently... than I can use my time to feed my '12 babies which are all in separate tubs from the day they are born since hatchlings are far more prone to eat each other than adults and juvies. Good idea?

[BloodyBaroness]

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/tldr-3-238x300.jpg

It is showing stress!!!! By the time it stops eating that is advanced stages of stress.

Cry me a river. How ever you want to justify jamming too many animals in a viv is fine with me, but you will never change my mind, or justify going against a solitary animal's nature.

[airenlow]

For what it is worth: I actually have a juvenile that started to eat more enthusiastically (constricting like the prey is alive) than ever before from maybe the 2nd or 3rd feeding after I put her together with another female juvenile. If feeding response is considered a measure for well being... just saying.

Competing for resources...

[starsevol]

We all put snakes in vis for our 'needs', if it is all about the snakes well being, please do not keep snakes at all. I can understand that where you draw the line is different then where I or someons else draws the line in what is good, but I think it is quite weird to act like you all think about the snakes well being only, because than you would not keep them at all or give them all at least a bath tub sized viv. Or maybe double that sizer! Don't act like you are the mother Theresa to your snakes, you do use animals for your own pleasure and keep them in limited space in non natural cages, that is a fact. You do not keep snakes because it is so good for them.

The boa that is harassed now and than by her cage mate, does not show stress signals. If she had stopped eating or had started to shed bad, I would not have co-habbed them. I kept her viv empty for a while so I could separate them if things were not going well but both still did well. I have asked again last week and any Dutch forum member says the viv is neat for two boa's. Yet I am on the look out for a new owner for the smaller one and have put her an ad for her on my FB time line for sale for a low price because I don't want to take a chance with her, since she IS being harassed now and than, I can't deny that and I do not have another suitable viv in case she does start to show stress signals. I will take her with me to the fair to try to sell her. Yet I did not see accute urgenty to separate them. Also because since the last few days the harassing has stopped.



OF COURSE we keep snakes for our own pleasure, but when we do so, we have a responsibility to care for them the VERY BEST way we know how. Knowing what we know about their solitary nature, we keep them seperate. If we don't have the space, we don't get the snake, we don't cram them together.
And I have to echo what Chip said. When they aren't showing visible signs of doing poorly, that does not mean they are doing well!! And by the time the signs show up, they have been suffering a long time.

I don't care if an entire continent co habs, it is still a crappy way to keep an animal that is solitary by nature. Just because others do it doesn't make it right.

As far as the boa goes.... you did not see the urgency to seperate...and you don't see any harassing....yippee, but that animal IS suffering. That cage IS too small. That animal should NEVER have been put in that position and should have been out of it days ago....

[starsevol]

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/tldr-3-238x300.jpg

It is showing stress!!!! By the time it stops eating that is advanced stages of stress.

Cry me a river. How ever you want to justify jamming too many animals in a viv is fine with me, but you will never change my mind, or justify going against a solitary animal's nature.

EXACTLY!!

Those poor snakes......

[SnakeAround]

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

[MegF.]

Ah, now you're assuming things. Non natural setups...please, come to the US sometime and be welcome in my home. You can see all natural vivs for almost all my snakes. Most of them are bioearth with live plants and even the ones that aren't have moss as substrate, live plants and natural wood for climbing (arboreals). The one cornsnake I've kept and all before it, were kept in cages with shredded aspen, branches, silk plants and plenty of space. My venomous are kept on bioearth with natural substrate and branches etc to hide behind. So before you start saying that they aren't kept naturally...many of us do. I do not think you are intentionally being cruel or otherwise...of course keeping snakes in cages is not natural. That's a given. Keeping horses in stalls is even less natural and far worse for them yet people do it every day. I'm just stating that I live with these snakes here in the wild....I know the habitat they live in, and a lot of their habits in general. Keeping them in groups because it is accepted in Europe is not in the snake's best interest. Just because "everyone" is doing it does not make it right. The fact is: They don't like it....ever. Some adapt to it better than others-fortunately for us cornsnakes thrive where others would die, but I think it's detrimental to their health and well being. I try to reduce the amount of stress my snake's are under and change things if they are under stress. I certainly do not force them to live with multiple cagemates...this practice will someday come bite you in the butt...one snake getting sick can wipe out your whole bunch. That's just the beginning. Miss closing the cage lid just right? All gone. Mis-sex the snakes you have and think they are all female? oooopsss unexpected eggs, possible egg binding or a female too small to survive the rigors of being gravid. Happens all the time...go through the search feature here and read all about it. I will refuse sales of babies to people for a few reasons:
1: they haven't done their homework and have no idea what to do with the snake if they got it
2: They are planning on feeding live. Never necessary, no benefits and certainly huge risks...I've seen it and want nothing to do with it.
3: Cohabitating: I think it's so detrimental to the health of the snake that I will absolutely not sell an animal to someone who suggests or outright says they will. I put too much effort into keeping my animals healthy and happy without someone doing that to them.
Here's my philosophy: If you want them cage them separately. If you can't afford it, don't have space for it, feel like the snake will be lonely.....don't get one
This also goes for the time to take care of extra snakes, the money for veterinary care as well. If you can't afford it, have no time for it or there are no vets to get to, you really shouldn't have the animal. It all goes hand in hand....Just saying that perhaps a change of mindset might be in order. Hopefully, people will stop attacking and use reasonable logic to convince. Education, not attack. You will never change someone's mind by making them feel they need to be on the defensive...it will actually make them hold stronger to the idea. It's human nature...we all do it. However, I think if you did some research on the species....just plain old scientific research, you will find that it is counter productive to keep multiple snakes in a space of any size.

[MegF.]

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

I'd be interested to see that now that the other one is wrapping and grabbing food more quickly if it would continue once you move it back into it's own viv. I have babies that don't really constrict for a long while and then all of a sudden they start really going to town. As far as the point...point taken. You'd have to test it to see if that was true the majority of the time. FWIW: the person that I quoted that on, also said that the animal became more active and actually put more size on. He was eating regularly before, but after just seemed to eat better.

[MegF.]

MegF. You have snail eaters? That is awesome.

Yes I do. I have 4 of them and I am attempting to breed. So far nothing but they are liking their nice natural cage with running water and live plants. It's very cool to watch them hunt snails or just eat the f/t ones I put out. They will eat them from your hand on occasion. neat animals.

[airenlow]

Airenlow I knew that would be the reaction... but I though a better feeding response means it feels better? Separate a snake and it startes eating better: hey, he is less stressed, he feels better alone, yeah you are doing the right thing. Putting snakes together and one starts to eat better: now that is bad, there is stress from co-habbing, you are bad! Well, maybe that fussy eater that is housed alone is just very relaxed because he knows he has no competition, yet we think it is not doing very well.... Just to show how easily 'logic' can be turned around.

I wasn't turning anything around...
The second one is, I had two non feeders that I had put together during the past two weeks because I needed the space. They were getting so puny looking I decided if they did not eat this time I would put them down. I put them both in thier feeder bags, and neither one ate. I wasn't up to putting them down that night so I just threw the both of them back in their bin still inside thier brown paper bags with a pink inside. The bags were not sealed so I figured they would just crawl out and leave the pinks. I even saw one of them come out and cruise around. Now this is hardly something I would encourage, but I didn't worry much about them going for the same meal or anything, they never ate before and I was just going to put them down anyway. I went to go get the two today to do "the deed" and they were both as fat as could be. The pinks were gone. I have left these two overnight with pinks many times before to no success. What made them finally eat beats me, but I am glad they did! I am almost wondering if the competition of having another snake helped?? Of course I am in no way advocating this. It was just something I did after all hope (I thought) was lost and now the results have me scratching my head.

[SnakeAround]

I'd be interested to see that now that the other one is wrapping and grabbing food more quickly if it would continue once you move it back into it's own viv. I have babies that don't really constrict for a long while and then all of a sudden they start really going to town. As far as the point...point taken. You'd have to test it to see if that was true the majority of the time. FWIW: the person that I quoted that on, also said that the animal became more active and actually put more size on. He was eating regularly before, but after just seemed to eat better.
And a male and a female together.....I hope you're planning on eggs at some point...over and over again....Nothing like triple clutching to kill a female off before her time. I've personally seen that before as well. Had to point out to my good friend that he was slowly killing his beautiful snow corn by leaving her with the male all the time...about the third clutch she laid in a row. Nothing sucks calcium and calories out of a female like making eggs. Not good for them. He separated them.

I don't co-hab couples, serious breeders/keepers over here don't. It is done a lot however by people who don't look any further at all than what they feel is good for them, e.g. what (most) people like. e.g. being a couple with someone of the opposite sex. Those are the people who put a large (to their standards which might be 150 x 50 x 100 cm) show viv in the living room and put 2.4 mixed size corns in it, maybe with a ball python to add some variety. Lately on a fair I saw this guy with one large tub literally with a bottom completely covered by about 10 (semi)adult corns and misc. ratsnake hybrids/subspecies offering them for sale. He sold them quite soon after the fair opened and I saw him clawing the snakes with 3 or 4 in one hand into a pillow cover all together, that did upset me.. also since my adult snakes for sale are in separate boxes with wood shreddings or such since I think putting them together in a relatively small tub on a event that might bring stress to them to begin with is too much for them... I even provide them with water during the day, yet they do not sell because the other guy asks a laughably low price for his snakes or maybe has better skills in selling chat ups.

I guess my ways look to you what their ways look to me.. that is why I am not feeling offended, I can imagine what it feels like. Yet I have not seen a reaction to my question what you would do in the situation I described? Do you think you are keeping them as good as can be or would you acknowledge though maybe it can be done a tad better you are doing good enough? Do you all think that if someone cannot keep snakes at a mark 10 level, they should not? I see posts stating that one should do whatever possible they can to provide their snakes with a good life, but what if you cannot provide that 10 but an 8? And what is that ultimate level of keeping? A room sized viv is better than a closet sized one if you manage to keep it the right temps... or do you deny that? If you cannot make that happen, should you not keep a snake because you can't provide it with mark 10 level housing?

I appreciate your tone of voice Meg and your ability to admit that assuming is not the same as testing and knowing. And of course I know that not everybody over there keeps their snakes in drawers but where are all those lovely photo's than of all these spacious naturalistic vivs? Over here on the forum I see tubs with paper shredding or paper towels or with wood shreddings all the time... maybe I am wrong about what you American breeders do as a majority so I am looking forward to seeing all your set ups to change my ideas about it (not being sarcastic here). I do admit it would be easier to swallow and consider educational comments from people whom have awed me with their set ups and thus gained my respect. This forum is after all also a place for learning and who knows I might grow into your way of keeping Meg.

[susang]

I don't think anyone was going all Mother Theresa on you. Barbara, I looked at your set-up in another post really don't see where that is better, more roomy any nicer then a rack system with tubs. The only difference I see in the same space you have lets say 10 vivs, 20 snakes, and us uppity no-it-all Americans have 10 vivs, 10 snakes. I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

[airenlow]

...but where are all those lovely photo's than of all these spacious naturalistic vivs?

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99633

[SnakeAround]

I wasn't turning anything around...

I did not say you do, or at least I did not mean to. I turned things around to show how easy that can be done. Everybody has the right to form their opinion and use reasoning along with assumptions that are derived from their values or the other way around, as long as they keep in mind that only objective testing can deliver us facts. As long as there have not been objective studies on co-habbing in corns, I think some people need to cool down a bit on the subject and not condone others for trusting their and other people's experiences with it instead of theories and assumptions, even if they are backed by firm reasoning.

[starsevol]

I did not say you do, or at least I did not mean to. I turned things around to show how easy that can be done. Everybody has the right to form their opinion and use reasoning along with assumptions that are derived from their values or the other way around, as long as they keep in mind that only objective testing can deliver us facts. As long as there have not been objective studies on co-habbing in corns, I think some people need to cool down a bit on the subject and not condone others for trusting their and other people's experiences with it instead of theories and assumptions, even if they are backed by firm reasoning.

The FACT is that no objective testing is warranted, because snakes are solitary animals!! I know this is not what you want to hear, but cramming solitary animals together is abusive, even in the name of "science".

Just because the facts are not to your liking does not change a thing.
There is absolutely no way to justify your keeping methods.

[MegF.]

Actually, I took the part off about the male female deal. I reread the post you put and had for some reason originally thought I'd read male in with female. I then saw that it was female/female...still not good but better than a pair of opposites. I had edited it out but you got a hold of it too fast! LOL! If I had unlimited funds I'd build a room size viv for each snake. I've entertained thoughts of how to build a building that has cages with access to individual outdoor sections. My friend keeps his turtles like that. Just don't have the means to do it so I have to settle with larger cages that are as natural as I can make them in the space I have. I'd certainly have more if I had the room for them. I can only fit so many 4 ft long by 2 ft high by 2 ft deep cages in the room. The corns have nearly 4 ft long cages by 2 ft deep and 18" high. They don't need the height of the arboreal since they spend more time on the ground. In my dreams I'd have a huge building with the roof with plexiglass openings to let in lots of natural light. Kind of like the greenhouses you see except much bigger...maybe like you see at large nursery's. The cages would be open screen types because I could control the humidity in the building and airflow. I'd have them all natural with trees and bushes and plants of all types. I'd also love running water in them. I totally love that in the snail eater's cage. It's basically a dart frog setup, but it works wonderfully for the smaller species. I'd like something like it for my eyelash viper as well. Unfortunately....I'm not rich as Midas at this time and don't expect to be anytime soon, so I have to do the best I can..which is provide as large a cage as can be managed and give them as natural a caging as possible. No one is saying that you need a 10 to keep them. I DO say that you need to meet minimum requirements. A living space large enough to accomodate the animal, food that meets it's nutritional needs, temperatures that meet it's needs, medical care should it be necessary, hiding areas to give it a feeling of safety and a cage alone in respect for it's natural habits. This is true of ANY animal you own. If you have a dog...it should be kept the way a dog's natural needs are met...the need of the animal...not the need of Susie or Joe or Meg ...the dog. If you have a cat, you need to meet the needs of that cat....not the dog....a horse...the horse's needs. Too many of us keep their animals in ways that are convenient for US, not what the animal really needs to thrive as THAT species. Dogs need a pack, horses need a herd, wide spaces and the ability to graze constantly. Cats need...well...cats just want what they want! Snakes need to be alone. It's in their DNA...that's the basics of the animal. You can keep them in a tank with paper towel and hides...that works...yes it does. People keep them that way and they do fine....pretty much. You meet the minimum needs of the species-and snakes don't require that much. However, when you keep multiple snakes together, you are no longer meeting the minimum needs of the animal....you are going against the basic instincts of it. I personally think that keeping in more naturalistic and larger cages helps keep the snakes active and stimulated. Since I don't feed weekly, my snakes are almost always out and active hunting for food and searching through the cages. Babies are kept in smaller tubs to help them feel more secure. They are moved to larger setups when they are ready. I've had some snakes that take longer to move into larger cages because they stress too much when they get into the bigger spots. I had a green tree python that did not handle moving to a larger space well at all. I moved her back into a tub to provide her with less stress until she grew a little more. She is still one of my more nervous snakes that does not like to be handled and reacts to things more strongly than my other green trees. I respect that by avoiding handling her at all, usually leaving her strictly alone except to spot clean and feed/water changes. I don't make her have to tolerate me more than I have to. Bigger would not necessarily be better for her. You judge each snake....I still would NOT ever co-habitate a snake with even my calmest snake because it just...is...against....their....nature....period!

[SnakeAround]

I don't think anyone was going all Mother Theresa on you. Barbara, I looked at your set-up in another post really don't see where that is better, more roomy any nicer then a rack system with tubs. The only difference I see in the same space you have lets say 10 vivs, 20 snakes, and us uppity no-it-all Americans have 10 vivs, 10 snakes. I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

I have said already multiple times that I compare my way to drawers, yet I have come to realise that actually you guys are not keeping them in drawers but in same sized tubs in racks. So you are probably better keepers than I am... or many other keepers over here, there it is again, my humble acknowledgement of that for everybody else to see, in case people missed it. Yet, should we all be allowed to only keep them at AAA rate level or else not keep them? And what is that level AAA? Is it ok to talk down AA level keepers if AA is still considered ok in the range?

By the way, I never said my way is more natural :)

I do wonder how large your houses all are? Lookign at American real life series I see quite poor peope live in quite large stand alone houses with a garden all around it all the time. Over here that costs a fortune, poorer people are in rack like buildings with tubs.. erm.. one or two room appartments :) My home measures about 80 - 85 square meters with one master bed room (was a small and an average room), average living room, large kitchen and a hobby/computer room sized about 4 x 4 meter I think. Many couples consider that large. Maybe over here houses have always been smaller on average and that is why more people started co-habbing over here? Not as an excuse but something must have triggered this.

[SnakeAround]

Actually, I took the part off about the male female deal. I reread the post you put and had for some reason originally thought I'd read male in with female. I then saw that it was female/female...still not good but better than a pair of opposites. I had edited it out but you got a hold of it too fast! LOL! If I had unlimited funds I'd build a room size viv for each snake. I've entertained thoughts of how to build a building that has cages with access to individual outdoor sections. My friend keeps his turtles like that. Just don't have the means to do it so I have to settle with larger cages that are as natural as I can make them in the space I have. I'd certainly have more if I had the room for them. I can only fit so many 4 ft long by 2 ft high by 2 ft deep cages in the room. The corns have nearly 4 ft long cages by 2 ft deep and 18" high. They don't need the height of the arboreal since they spend more time on the ground. In my dreams I'd have a huge building with the roof with plexiglass openings to let in lots of natural light. Kind of like the greenhouses you see except much bigger...maybe like you see at large nursery's. The cages would be open screen types because I could control the humidity in the building and airflow. I'd have them all natural with trees and bushes and plants of all types. I'd also love running water in them. I totally love that in the snail eater's cage. It's basically a dart frog setup, but it works wonderfully for the smaller species. I'd like something like it for my eyelash viper as well. Unfortunately....I'm not rich as Midas at this time and don't expect to be anytime soon, so I have to do the best I can..which is provide as large a cage as can be managed and give them as natural a caging as possible. No one is saying that you need a 10 to keep them. I DO say that you need to meet minimum requirements. A living space large enough to accomodate the animal, food that meets it's nutritional needs, temperatures that meet it's needs, medical care should it be necessary, hiding areas to give it a feeling of safety and a cage alone in respect for it's natural habits. This is true of ANY animal you own. If you have a dog...it should be kept the way a dog's natural needs are met...the need of the animal...not the need of Susie or Joe or Meg ...the dog. If you have a cat, you need to meet the needs of that cat....not the dog....a horse...the horse's needs. Too many of us keep their animals in ways that are convenient for US, not what the animal really needs to thrive as THAT species. Dogs need a pack, horses need a herd, wide spaces and the ability to graze constantly. Cats need...well...cats just want what they want! Snakes need to be alone. It's in their DNA...that's the basics of the animal. You can keep them in a tank with paper towel and hides...that works...yes it does. People keep them that way and they do fine....pretty much. You meet the minimum needs of the species-and snakes don't require that much. However, when you keep multiple snakes together, you are no longer meeting the minimum needs of the animal....you are going against the basic instincts of it. I personally think that keeping in more naturalistic and larger cages helps keep the snakes active and stimulated. Since I don't feed weekly, my snakes are almost always out and active hunting for food and searching through the cages. Babies are kept in smaller tubs to help them feel more secure. They are moved to larger setups when they are ready. I've had some snakes that take longer to move into larger cages because they stress too much when they get into the bigger spots. I had a green tree python that did not handle moving to a larger space well at all. I moved her back into a tub to provide her with less stress until she grew a little more. She is still one of my more nervous snakes that does not like to be handled and reacts to things more strongly than my other green trees. I respect that by avoiding handling her at all, usually leaving her strictly alone except to spot clean and feed/water changes. I don't make her have to tolerate me more than I have to. Bigger would not necessarily be better for her. You judge each snake....I still would NOT ever co-habitate a snake with even my calmest snake because it just...is...against....their....nature....period!

I do understand what you are saying and you are actually getting closer to convincing me than anyone else has ever done somehow. You might have sown a seed that grows into me not co-habbing by comparing it to horses, they are surely a species not being honored enough by the way they are threated by too many people. Darn now I have to go through the struggle of coping with that seed...

But now.. bed time! Have to get up early to do some voluntary first aid assistance work until diner time.....

[Nanci]

Once a snake is removed from the wild, there is nothing even remotely "natural" about any aspect of its environment.

[BloodyBaroness]

Once a snake is removed from the wild, there is nothing even remotely "natural" about any aspect of its environment.

Yup. We need to keep them to the best of our ability at that point, which means honoring their solitary lifestyle.

Bed time for me too. I'm feeding homeless kittens tomorrow.

[MegF.]

Gotta work tomorrow or it would be Petsmart and dog adoptions for me. Two more weeks to find a home for George before I go to Washington DC for a national dog walk. He'll be home all alone if he's not found a home by then! My three are going with me to do the walk.

[AliCat37]

I'm no math expert or engineer but I wonder what the difference is sq in per viv in your set-up and a tub commonly used here? My guess is close to the same. So tell me where your way is better and more natural.

I did the math once to see about that!

I keep most of my corns in 41 quart sterilite tubs. Those measure 36 x 16 inches, for a total of 576 Square inches.
The corns in my display cages have 24 x 24 inch caging... 576 square inches.
A 55 gallon fish tank is 12 x 48 inches, equaling a total of 576 square inches...

The recommended size for a single corn is 360 square inches (a twenty gallon long tank).

Since they are not climbers, and floor space is what matters, all my corns are in the same sized viv.

[susang]

I did the math once to see about that!

I keep most of my corns in 41 quart sterilite tubs. Those measure 36 x 16 inches, for a total of 576 Square inches.
The corns in my display cages have 24 x 24 inch caging... 576 square inches.
A 55 gallon fish tank is 12 x 48 inches, equaling a total of 576 square inches...

The recommended size for a single corn is 360 square inches (a twenty gallon long tank).

Since they are not climbers, and floor space is what matters, all my corns are in the same sized viv.

I wonder how they measure size wise to Barbras I bet very close,

[Chip]

A 20 long isn't big enough for an adult. And I have had a few that were climbers, a lot of young ones will, but they are just more active. I plan on setting up a display "grow out" viv for my Palmetto with a climbing area. Hopefully she'll be one of those that will use it. I might encourage this with a radiant heat panel, but this is still at the planning stages. And to stay on topic, I will not cohab her.

[Nanci]

You should get a hammock for her! Some of them love hammocks!

[Weda737]

Mine couldn't give two poops about his hammock, he's king of the log.

[Nanci]

It's not very natural, but mine sure love those wine boxes :-) They love to hang out the carrying handles in the top. I put crumpled newspaper inside so it's not a wide open space. So handy for removing the snake for feeding! And there are lots of varietals so it's easy to color coordinate with your snake :-) There is even a two-bottle box which is perfect for a 10 gallon for juvies!

[SnakeAround]

It's not very natural, but mine sure love those wine boxes :-) They love to hang out the carrying handles in the top. I put crumpled newspaper inside so it's not a wide open space. So handy for removing the snake for feeding! And there are lots of varietals so it's easy to color coordinate with your snake :-) There is even a two-bottle box which is perfect for a 10 gallon for juvies!

You made me curious... I have no clue what wine boxes look like. You have pics to show?

[Weda737]

lol I don't have to worry about getting mine out for feeding, they poke their heads out any time I move near their viv, such nosy little pac man snakes.

[AliCat37]

A 20 long isn't big enough for an adult.

Is that a personal opinion? I've never once in my life heard that a 20 long is not enough for an adult.. I've been told that that is the perfect size for an adult corn. I see it recommended here almost daily.

[Outcast]

I think it depends on the individual snake. There are some that a 20 long would not come close to being good enough.

[SnakeAround]

20 long means 20 inch? That is below what is recommended for 1 corn.

[RobbiesCornField]

20 long means 20 inch? That is below what is recommended for 1 corn.

No, 20 refers to the number of gallons the tank is capable of holding, long refers to the style tank (as opposed to a 20 tall, which would have more air space than ground space).

[SnakeAround]

Ok, thanks Robbie!

[RobbiesCornField]

Anytime! :)

[Chip]

Is that a personal opinion? I've never once in my life heard that a 20 long is not enough for an adult.. I've been told that that is the perfect size for an adult corn. I see it recommended here almost daily.

A 20 long is 30" X 12". As many of my breeders as not would cover half the footprint. Maybe for a typical smallish lavender or Miami a 20L would be adequate.

[airenlow]

I believe 20L is recommended as the minimum for an adult...

[AliCat37]

Weird. 32 quart, and 64 quart sterilites are the exact same floor space as the 20 longs. I know that some members here use those tub sizes for their adults. I have Shivers who is almost five feet in a 32 quart for now, just waiting on a 20 gallon to get here.

[SnakeAround]

A gallon is 3.5 liter as far as I know, which is 3.5 spaces of 10 x 10 cm. Working with that I calculated that my co-habbing vivs are 162 liter (9 x 6 x 3 of those 10 x 10 spaces) is just over 46 gallon. Did anyone realize that is more than twice the recommended minimum size you are talking about? Just checking...My solo vivs are just over 30 gallon by the way.

[Nanci]

You made me curious... I have no clue what wine boxes look like. You have pics to show?

Google Target Wine Cube (http://www.livingfrugaltips.com/recipe-food-tips/target-wine-cube-good-wine-great-price/). The wine, BTW, is decent. I drink it all the time! About $17 for 3L, the equivalent of four bottles.

[SnakeAround]

I don't like wine, but I like the box as a hide!

[Chip]

Weird. 32 quart, and 64 quart sterilites are the exact same floor space as the 20 longs. I know that some members here use those tub sizes for their adults. I have Shivers who is almost five feet in a 32 quart for now, just waiting on a 20 gallon to get here.

I swear I'm not trying to argue with you, but to even say one tank size fits all for an adult snake that can vary in weight by 100% is playing it too loose for my liking. A 32qt is fine for a small corn, the Sterilites I put big corns in are 106 qt/100 liter (34" X20"), and my racks are 33.5" X 17.5. And those don't seem especially roomy to me. I have 40 20L's in my shop, lest anyone think I'm confused as to the tank size. It's my only day off and I'm tempted to bring a big corn to work just to put in a 20L and photograph! If one of my larger corns in a 20L doesn't make the tank seem WAY too small, we simply have a different belief in how much room they need. :cheers:

[Nanci]

I find the floor space in a 20L really limiting. It would be hard to get a lay box into one! At least the type I use, 9" delis. Krinkle is in a 20L, though. But he's only 26 grams.

[SnakeAround]

Does 32 qrt means 8 gallon? 106 means 26.5 gallon?

Well, my regular sized adults corns are in 30 gallons (6 x 6 x 3 = 108 liter).My large male corn is in a 46 gallon on its own. I guess I'm doing something right...

Elroyo, what's the third dimension of your rack tubs sized?

[Floof]

Does 32 qrt means 8 gallon? 106 means 26.5 gallon?

Well, my regular sized adults corns are in 30 gallons (6 x 6 x 3 = 108 liter).My large male corn is in a 46 gallon on its own. I guess I'm doing something right...

Elroyo, what's the third dimension of your rack tubs sized?

The main thing people tend to look at, at least over here, is floor space. Not so much volume. I have my adult corn snake in a 41 quart tub, which is around 34" by 16" if I remember correctly. It's almost the same amount of floorspace as a 40 gallon Breeder style tank, just not as tall.

What are the dimensions of your cohabbing vivs? Length, width, height. A 46 gallon whatever can be any shape. It can be tall with narrow floorspace, which would be inappropriate for most corns. Or it could be short and long, a perfect cube, or anything in between.

I still don't agree with cohabbing, at least not in less than the ultimate ideal conditions. To give you some perspective, Christen has mentioned in the past that she cohabbed two female corns in a 110 gallon, I believe it was... Well, a 100+ gallon tank usually measures at 6 feet long. The size enclosure that you cohab two boas in. This is what any of us here would consider minimum to even begin entertaining the idea of cohabbing a couple corn snakes. It doesn't save you any space over just giving them each their own 3 foot enclosure, which is the whole point... They each have a space large enough to live comfortably without necessarily having to venture into the other's territory, if they so desire.

Whoops, didn't mean to get into the actual debate. Oh well, there's my $.02, anyway. Carry on... *fetches more popcorn*

[SnakeAround]

I know floor space is most important, that is why my co-habbing vivs are 90 x 60 x 30 cm. I just wanted to check if people actually realized the size of my vivs, because I was a little surprised to find out that apparently the USA minimum size is a 20L.

[AliCat37]

OH yey, here we go again.
That is definitely not big enough to house two corns in. Talk with those that have cohabbed correctly, and they will tell you the snakes never come near each other, so why even bother trying to force the issue?

[starsevol]

Meh, just another selfish keeper with a constantly harassed female doomed to die young. Sad.

[BloodyBaroness]

Beat me to it.

That tank is far too small for even considering cohabbing.

They do not to it in nature, unless forced by weather or some other conditions, they do enjoy it. It is against the core behavior of corn snakes.

[susang]

On the flip side, if all the above cautions are observed, I don't think it is detrimental to keep corn snakes together. I have a breeding pair in a 4'x1'x20" tank that they seem to enjoy.

What makes you think they enjoy being together?

[Christen]

Hey where is that dead horse animation or video thingy?

[susang]

Hey where is that dead horse animation or video thingy?

Sadly I think some people just don't get. The unfortunate thing is some new person will come along and read "if all the above cautions are observed". They don't read the rest of the thread or really understand those cautions.

[Christen]

Oh I am not talking about you all pointing out his completely flawed points. I was talking about him digging up an old thread that has been dead since Sept. Then repeated everything in the thread just to say it is ok to co-hab. I am not sure if it was an attempt to bring up a hot topic or what but since he has deleted his comment I can't re-read it.

[susang]

Oh! why do people do that if you say something at least defend it or don't say it, but to delete it, eh.:-puke01:

[SnakeAround]

Maybe he got scared :p

[epicdoom]

Sadly I think some people just don't get. The unfortunate thing is some new person will come along and read "if all the above cautions are observed". They don't read the rest of the thread or really understand those cautions.
True Susang. I don't cohab not because I have room and don't need to, but because I feel snakes are more solitary type creatures. I have come across more wild snakes then most folks have seen tame, being I'm in the woods more then 9 months out of the year. with the exception of breeding snakes I have never seen 2 together. Does this mean they don't enjoy company from time to time, Who knows for certain they cant tell us. I tend to let what I see tell me. someone mentioned regurges this is a serious problem with cohabing snakes if all feed the same day, 2 days pass no more lump then Who did it becomes a mystery at best. This is a problem for a friend of mine who has 3 tanks 4 snakes each. his snakes regurge possibly due to the stress of living together I know he doesn't touch them after feeding for 4 days not even to freshen water still at least one will regurge every snake he owns has done it at one point or another. That being said I do notice when i go there all his snakes are under the same hide. My thought on that is its where they need to be since its always on the warm side. If they all need to be warm it stands to reason they will all be there. So far none of his snakes have eaten one another but he has lost a few to regurge issues. He cant afford to have 12 tanks and wouldn't have room for it anyhow. Since he has 20L tanks and small snakes I suggested he section them off even using cardboard would work it would give his snakes some time to get out of regurging while he saved the money to build a rack I have a small rack for hatchlings I just completed, it can hold 18 snakes and is only 4 foot long 1 foot wide and 1.5 foot tall that's just a little larger then a 20L I am going to bring him to my house this weekend to show it to him total price to build including heating tape and tubs $120.00. I will post pics when I get it all set up and running will be in the DIY section full Material and price list. Hopefully i can talk him into letting me build one for him.

[Christen]

Just to ad I do agree with the points that have been brought up. The cage at 4x1 is far to small. If you see one of my post towards the beginning of this thread the tank that I used was about 6ftx20inx2ft. And that was just for 2 snakes as well.

The other point of how do you know that the snakes like it, is right on the money as well. During my experiment of co-habbing the snakes lived together with no issues with the other however because they had a large area with many similar hides they chose not to be in the same one. They didn't cuddle or share a space unless they were passing by each other. Or once I did see they drinking out of the same bowl.

With everything I have seen they sometimes will live together if forced, but why do it if they are perfectly happy and healthy being separate?

Oh! why do people do that if you say something at least defend it or don't say it, but to delete it, eh.:-puke01:

I don't know. It is very frustrating.

[Haight]

Photographic evidence of cohabbing problems:
Good god. How long would that take to digest? Would it most likely end with a regurge?

[MegF.]

This is an old thread but in cases like that most of the time both animals die....it would regurge but more often it just dies from eating too much.

[Haight]

This is an old thread but in cases like that most of the time both animals die....it would regurge but more often it just dies from eating too much.

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't see the date on the last post until after I posted mine. Thanks for replying anyway. No need for further response. Thread can go back into the grave now.