Those that have force fed. Is it worth it?

[Christen]

Ok so far this year I have 3 non feeders. One is now eating either live or tuna scented pinks. No luck on the other two. Last time I weighed them they were down to 4 grams and that was about a week ago. I have never had to force feed hatchlings before, well of mine. Now I am trying to make the decision, "Is it worth it?" I know it sounds cruel. When I have done it for others once the snake ate on it's own it was on his way and I never found out if they grew up to be picky eaters or not. So in your opinion is it worth it.

[cobained]

I force fed one very small nonfeeder; at first he was easy to feed, but later became very difficult and then regurged and died. I think it was the stress of feeding rather than the lack of nutrition. I have quite a few difficult feeders on my hands right now, and I'm starting to wonder the same thing...I tried to force feed one a few days ago, and it reacted so violently that I think it's now kinked. I think I'll do everything I can with getting them to eat on their own, but honestly don't think I'll be force feeding. Will be interesting to hear others' opinions too.

[Tara80]

I indicated yes, but I should have put that it depends. On average, the majority will start taking food on their own after a few weeks of tube feeding and I generally chalk it up to the fact that rodents are not a baby cornsnake's natural food source. I'm lucky because my roommate and I work together - him holding the snake while I measure and inject the food and we've had amazing results doing so.
Earlier this year though, we kept a baby alive for probably close to 6 months through tube feeding when he clearly had another problem not associated to feeding (his hind end was very limp, like he had a spinal problem but no noticeable kinks). He finally died and I should have just saved myself and my roommate the heartache in the first place by just letting nature take its course with him.

[elfpunk19]

About 7 years ago my friend had a snake that refused to eat whatever was offered to her, unfortunately she had to to be force fed, and what made things even worse was that she didn't make it, my friend was so upset he didn't get another snake for 5 years. However I have herd that some people are successful in force feeding so long as it is done carefully & an expert is consulted on the matter.

[snakewispera snr]

I put yes.... We have had positive results from assisting feed rather than force feed.
Both similar I will agree but assisting is less stressful than forcing IMO.

[Nanci]

Can you describe your assist-feeding method, Mike?

[bitsy]

I force-fed long term non-feeders for a couple of seasons - hatchlings that hadn't eaten anything for two months after hatching despite using all of the usual tips and tricks. All of them kept the force-fed pinkies down, there were no regurges and the resulting poop looked normal.

None ever ate of their own accord and all of them eventually died, despite having no apparent health problems and behaving normally (apart from not eating and not putting on any weight). Each was given the opportunity to eat of their own accord for three feeds between force feeds, with a range of the standard tricks to encourage them. There were alternately probiotic or nutritional supplements in their drinking water at all times.

I wouldn't do it again. It just seems to prolong the process.

[diamondlil]

No black and white answers for me on this one. Any snake that needed extensive assist, or forced feeding to survive, wouldn't be my choice to breed from. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling it on either, unless I was absolutely sure it was to a pet-only forever home. So very little chance of that.
My reasoning is that I would never be sure the failure to feed wasn't genetic, and wouldn't want non-feeder tendancies perpetuated. Which is why last years non-feeding hatchlings ended up euthed and frozen to become food for baby cobras. I can't remember who I first heard the 3 strikes rule from, but it seems a good policy to me, to try to improve the snakes you are breeding rather than save every hatchling at all costs.
I personally would never buy a known problem feeder to breed from and would be majorly annoyed if I was sold one fraudulently.
But my beloved snow girlie, Diamond Lil, who had months of forced feeding, assist feeding, live feeding, back to force feeding and so on before she finally started feeding reliably, was totally worth the effort to me. I wanted my pet to have a good shot at survival.
(I feel the same way about kinked hatchlings too, again I'd only try to save them if I personally intended to keep them as pets, like little Scout, RIP)

[snakewispera snr]

Where as I agree in principle to the no feed 3 feed rule...... I did gift a problem feeder to someone who wanted to give it a forever home....
Since, it has fed reliably and grown bigger than it's siblings......
Today you would never think there was ever a problem, and the new owner thinks we were making it all up.... I would now breed off this snake as it isn't the problem it once was.....
It is a carpet as well BTW.. Which may make a difference...

[sierraherps]

Ok, my question is, how do you "KNOW" it's time to try tube feeding? I mean, I have read and heard that little pippers can go up to a month after 1st shed just on their yolk absorb. So, what if it's an EXTREME to MIDLINE Premature TWIN who's sibling died before the preemy popped out? What if the egg still appears to be FULL of gooey yolky stuff? ...ect. Just interested in hearing some long timers idea's on this...? AND THANKX CHRISTEN for this post and ALL of you who answered...!

[sierraherps]

TO MIKE: Yes PLEASE explain "assisted" difference from tube/force PLEASE very interested

[chris68]

I don't, but I've never considered it. If they don't eat after a few times, with 7-10 day intervals between feedings, I'll give them away to those who like a challenge,. Sometimes it seems to be just a change of scenery is all it takes.

[Nanci]

TO MIKE: Yes PLEASE explain "assisted" difference from tube/force PLEASE very interested

There are several ways to assist feed your baby, the success of which is determined on how bitey he is.

First, you can hold him with roughly 1 to 1.5" of him sticking out from your fingers. Then hold a pinky in your other hand and tap him on the neck, not the head or face, with the pink. If he bites, freeze. Do NOTHING until he begins to swallow, and still nothing until the pink is safely down in the stomach.

It may take many, many times of him striking, holding and spitting out until he finally decides to swallow. Or he may do it on the first try.

Another way is to take a very wet pink and press it against the snake's mouth. He may start drinking, and then may proceed to open his mouth and eat. You _can_ withhold water for a day before trying this.

Another way, if your baby is not a biter, is to jab him with the pink, again on the neck, not the head, until he bites in irritation. This is sometimes referred to as "slap-feeding." If he bites, you need to absolutely freeze. Make sure you are in a comfortable position before you even start!

If you have a difficult baby, plan on spending an hour to have success. Sometimes if the baby gets tired of striking, you can put him back in his deli for a few minutes, and reheat the pink. This seems to recharge the strike response!

If you aren't having luck with a whole or partial pink, try just the head.

Most are pretty simple to get to feed like this in just one or two cycles (in the same evening) of trying.

[Nanci]

Force feeding would be prying the snake's mouth open in some manner, inserting a pink head, and forcing it down by pushing it (gently enough to not damage the snake) and then massaging until the pink head is down far enough that the snake won't spit it back out, usually to the level of the heart or so. It is not pleasant for the snake or the person feeding.

In assist feeding, or tease feeding, you encourage the snake to bite the prey, and hope that once he gets it in his mouth a light bulb goes on and he instinctively swallows.

[AliCat37]

I have a friend who will force feed babies for a year until the next year's clutch hatches. Out of the several hundred babies he had, he had to force feed three all year. The one finally started to eat, the other two he ended up euthanizing. I tried to force feed my two non eating corns but haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet. I figure I will just keep offering food to them, if they don't start eating on their own soon I will assist. However, if they do not start eating by the time all the other hatchlings have found homes, those two will be euthanized. In nature not every hatchling survives, I like to give them the opportunity to, but if they don't eat they don't eat.

[snakewispera snr]

There are several ways to assist feed your baby, the success of which is determined on how bitey he is.

First, you can hold him with roughly 1 to 1.5" of him sticking out from your fingers. Then hold a pinky in your other hand and tap him on the neck, not the head or face, with the pink. If he bites, freeze. Do NOTHING until he begins to swallow, and still nothing until the pink is safely down in the stomach.

It may take many, many times of him striking, holding and spitting out until he finally decides to swallow. Or he may do it on the first try.

Another way is to take a very wet pink and press it against the snake's mouth. He may start drinking, and then may proceed to open his mouth and eat. You _can_ withhold water for a day before trying this.

Another way, if your baby is not a biter, is to jab him with the pink, again on the neck, not the head, until he bites in irritation. This is sometimes referred to as "slap-feeding." If he bites, you need to absolutely freeze. Make sure you are in a comfortable position before you even start!

If you have a difficult baby, plan on spending an hour to have success. Sometimes if the baby gets tired of striking, you can put him back in his deli for a few minutes, and reheat the pink. This seems to recharge the strike response!

If you aren't having luck with a whole or partial pink, try just the head.

Most are pretty simple to get to feed like this in just one or two cycles (in the same evening) of trying.

Force feeding would be prying the snake's mouth open in some manner, inserting a pink head, and forcing it down by pushing it (gently enough to not damage the snake) and then massaging until the pink head is down far enough that the snake won't spit it back out, usually to the level of the heart or so. It is not pleasant for the snake or the person feeding.

In assist feeding, or tease feeding, you encourage the snake to bite the prey, and hope that once he gets it in his mouth a light bulb goes on and he instinctively swallows.
You already know Nanci.. Force feeding is intrusive, IMO... By forcing it is traumatic for both the hatchling and keeper..
assisting is using the snakes natural instincts and making it follow them through.. Strike feeding by irritation... Then not allowing it to drop the prey.. 'Helping' it to get it down it's neck..
Obviously I am keeping Carpets, and they may be easier or take better to assisting... Certainly they are bigger so easier to handle than boot lace corns..

[Nanci]

It's difficult to work with a snake that weighs 4-5 grams!

[airenlow]

This little girl refused all food for 2 months. I force fed mouse tails and partial pinkies for 2 more months before she finally started eating on her own. Now, she's my biggest '10...

OOE
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn35/airenlow/Willow/DSC_0318.jpg

Now
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn35/airenlow/Willow/DSC_0756.jpg

On the other hand, her sister was also force fed (even tube fed twice), but eventually had to be euthanized.

[Christen]

Thank you all for sharing all of your experience. I think I have come to the person decision that I am not going to force feed in the future. I may offer them up for free to someone I feel could try to the best of their ability with out causing harm. Fortunately, I don't have to make the decision with these two just yet. Last night I tried just shoving the pink in their mouth and seeing what happened the first one ate right way and the 2nd fought with me so I tried braining and doing it again with the brain juices running in his mouth and that worked like a charm. So hopefully they get the idea that is what that little pink thing is for and start eating on their own.

[sierraherps]

NANCY & MIKE: WoooHooo! You just ROCK! Thank You Thank YOU both - as we, Sean & I, have already seen, our little preemie "Not Possible" beauty does "dart" incredibly FAST... this "irritating" neck only, NOT THE FACE OR HEAD... just sounds EXACTLY like what we needed to know! Sean and I have both "gently" attempted to "rub" the gooey pink parts as near the mouth as possible, subsequently - bouncing it off his hose or head as he freaks out and tries to "FLEE"! - Out of the 3 or 4, IMO, viable options concerning non-feeders... I fully intend to try the them all until one works - most unintrusive first... (I fully understand the "Nature take it's course if it doesn't feed, and not breeding a non-feeder... But......MAN! C'mon! lol HAVE YA SEEN OUR MIRICLE, NOT GENETICALLY POSSIBLE, PREEMIE!?! lol Would be VERY VERY hard to euthanize something that may well produce it's OWN also different NON GENETICALLY possible morphs! LOL
But Seriously... THANK YOU SO MUCH! YOU ALL HAVE no idea how much you repeatedly ease my mind, as well as, chipping away at my (for obvious reasons, considering my previous 2 yr history) lack of confidence and consistantly keep me at least, a bit over, "semi" positive!!
SERIOUSLY THANK YOU ALL!!!

[sierraherps]

This little girl refused all food for 2 months. I force fed mouse tails and partial pinkies for 2 more months before she finally started eating on her own. Now, she's my biggest '10...

OOE
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn35/airenlow/Willow/DSC_0318.jpg

Now
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn35/airenlow/Willow/DSC_0756.jpg

WOW! So, the colors and patterns will change THAT much in a year?? Sheeesh! Now I REALLY wonder how our FIRST will turn out! When we got my 5 month old male "black Albino" back in 2009 - his Black to white was SO dramatic! and he didnt escape until he was close to 11 months old and his colors stayed dramtic as when I 1st saw him... So I just figured that was the norm... but I guess that first 5 months can see some drastic changes?? Either way... POSITIVE STORY OF A GORGEOUS CORN! THANKX!:wavey:

[MysticExotics]

I put yes.... We have had positive results from assisting feed rather than force feed.
Both similar I will agree but assisting is less stressful than forcing IMO.

I indicated yes, but I should have put that it depends. On average, the majority will start taking food on their own after a few weeks of tube feeding and I generally chalk it up to the fact that rodents are not a baby cornsnake's natural food source. I'm lucky because my roommate and I work together - him holding the snake while I measure and inject the food and we've had amazing results doing so.
Earlier this year though, we kept a baby alive for probably close to 6 months through tube feeding when he clearly had another problem not associated to feeding (his hind end was very limp, like he had a spinal problem but no noticeable kinks). He finally died and I should have just saved myself and my roommate the heartache in the first place by just letting nature take its course with him.

I've not force fed pinky parts, but I guess some would consider tube feeding "force feeding".
It can be time consuming, but sometimes it's worth it.
Many of our hatchlings in our first Tessera clutch were either non feeders or problem feeders. Tara took half & has been working with them & I worked on mine.
One of the things I think helped a lot, was the used deer mouse bedding, for scenting.
I have one baby that refused 5 meals. I tried spacing feeding days from 5 days to 10 days, trying to see if they would just get hungry enough. Live pinks converted two babies to eat for me.
One stubborn one that I have just would *not* eat. I tube fed him twice(blended ferret food & carnivore care, mixed with water). The second time I tube fed him, I left a sm pink in his bin & told him he needed to figure out how to eat on his own, or he'd end up dying. Much to my surprise, the pinky was gone in the morning. He's eaten on his own ever since.

One of the new Tessera babies, is going to need assistance feeding, I think. I think he's got ADD or something. LOL I held the pinky & got him to strike & latch on, but he dropped in, & wanted to go explore. UGH. He's only refused twice now, so I have time.

I think that sometimes they need a little help, getting started.
IMO, I think people fuss with the babies too much, causing them to be stressed, & that can cause them not to eat. Sometimes other factors are involved, but I'm seeing a pattern with esperienced breeders, saying they have better success rate at feeding the less they mess with hatchlings. Once they get started eating though, they're usually little monsters. LOL

[helifreak]

I have a problem feeder as outlined in this thread (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114204) here. One question I have is... how do you know when it's time for "drastic" measures?

My baby weighs 6.2g. And according to where purchased, it has now been 3 weeks since the last meal.... I have had 4 unsuccessful feeding attempts.... though tonight I feel through hand feeding/tease feeding was the closest yet.

At what point do you start trying to feed daily? Or is this never suggested?

At what point do you decide to "force" feed?

Do vets generally know how to assist in force feeding?

Can I simply walk into a PetSmart and ask for a Deer Mouse scented pinkie?

[MysticExotics]

I would not try to feed daily. Too stressful on the baby, IMO.
With tube feeding, it absorbs into their system much quicker than mice, because their bodies don't need to digest the outer skin (which is why making slits in them helps them digest it faster/easier).

I would not try to feed more than 5 days apart, unless tube feeding, I feed 3-4 days apart (above paragraph explains why).

Some vets do know how, some do not. I would call around & ask. One of the best exotic vets here will not sell the equipment for tubefeeding (blunt end syringes w/ silicone that they use for medication application) for feeding, unless you sign a waiver.

Try to find someone who raises deer mice or ASF's & ask for some of their used bedding. They generally have a lot, & often times will give it to you.
I don't know if Petsmart sells deer mice, I don't think they do.
You scent the pinky on your own.

As far as when do you know it's time...some babies can go a long time without eating, some need intervention much sooner.
I started tube feeding my little one after 5 refused feedings. The feedings were spaced out anywhere from 5 days apart, to 10 days.

[sierraherps]

It's difficult to work with a snake that weighs 4-5 grams!

I'm finding working with a 3 grammer ain't to easy either...LOL It appears that our little beauty, (at least so far, 5 weeks out of egg) isn't AT ALL INTO biting~! After a few times of poking her/him in the neck, he/she squirms insainly for a bit than just wants to curl up in my hand and try to hide from the messy/smelly little pinky...(part or whole) Seems she/he is not "Bitey" from irritation AT ALL! lol

But, TODAY is the day! (thinking positive here) Sean's going to "deal with" our 90 day old, eggs today - I'm going to work on getting baby to eat! OUR ONE AND ONLY BABY IN THREE YEARS... to eat! ...really don't know what happened to those couple of eggs that we were SURE were going to PIP any minute... just never did and now.. well lets just say it's time to break in and see why....!
Thankx so much, for ALL the great info here... wish me luck...!? (only 5 weeks old, pooped tiny bits twice now after handling/feeding attempts so I'm not as 'worried' and now figure if no feeding today... will give it another week or so, (7 to 10 days) before trying again, and maybe another week before going beond "attempts of assisted feeding & leaving the "feed" with her/him in the cup overnight".

[Christen]

You know one thing that got one of my non feeders to eat was, I brained it and then literally shoved it in his mouth. Not really forcing it down but we sat there for a minute with the brain juices dripping into his mouth. Then he was all about eating it. I did it one more time. Mostly cause he was down to 3 or 4 grams. Then this last time when he didn't eat again I held him still and just kept the pinky next to his nose and after a few seconds he started eating it. Now I think he is ready to try the starving method plus he is up to 6 grams. So I feel more comfortable letting him starve for a little bit.

My other non feeder I shoved it in his mouth once and the next time he ate all by himself. :) Hopefully, he will continue to do so.

[Dorgrim]

ive had to force feed a few times. the snake i first tried died on his own. he was pretty sick just in general and it was some last ditch effort to get some weight onto him. That time i had a vet show me how its done. but the next two times i had a non feeding asian rat who as soon as the mouse was in his mouth, he gobbled it right up. Hes been refusing food again, and im not sure what is causing it (probably the seasons...) but aside from that i think it was worth it and well needed. he was in the "habit" of refusing food, and even gave up live mice! So, it was interesting and im still working with him... It really comes down to know when it is necessary or when you think you have the patience or skill to continue doing it.

[cornsnake_king]

i am new at force feeding but i did it with 12 successes they took it down no problem what i need to know is what to do next after

[AliCat37]

I should update on my two non feeders, one ate on its own finally, and the other I forced fed tails to and the second time I just assist fed him a tail. He now is eating pinks all on his own :) SO, I can definitely say that it is worth it.

[Christen]

i am new at force feeding but i did it with 12 successes they took it down no problem what i need to know is what to do next after

I am sorry what do you mean by next? After you force feed or steps to get them to eat on their own.

I should update on my two non feeders, one ate on its own finally, and the other I forced fed tails to and the second time I just assist fed him a tail. He now is eating pinks all on his own :) SO, I can definitely say that it is worth it.

Congrats! That is wonderful news. I luckily didn't have to worry about it. Assist feeding worked for both of my non feeders. One just went to his new home a couple weeks ago and the other one I decided to keep.

[AliCat37]

Congrats! That is wonderful news. I luckily didn't have to worry about it. Assist feeding worked for both of my non feeders. One just went to his new home a couple weeks ago and the other one I decided to keep.

Thanks! I am keeping the little guy until I can find him a really good home and he's eaten at least 3 unscented meals in a row. I just hope I can find someone who wants him! haha.

[schnebbles]

I just read this thread and I don't recall seeing braining mentioned - have you tried that? If it has been mentioned, sorry, I must have missed it.

[Christen]

Oh yeah this thread is from back in July, these guys are eating and in their new homes. Braining was tried in fact in my posted in Aug I was able to get one to eat with a brained and shoving it in his mouth. I apologize for not putting it in the original post since force feeding should be a last ditch effort I didn't post everything I had tried.That and I wasn't yet to that point but I wanted to get other opinions that way I could make the decision whether it is worth it or not before it got to that point.

[cornsnake_king]

thanks for all the posts i was able to force feed 12 hatchling's

[Christen]

Good, keep us posted on how they do.

[cornsnake_king]

I will put them in a paper bag sat. with a live & see what happens then.