F/T to Live

[dukeofpiney]

So my snake took f/t very easily from the time i got him. A few weeks ago, i got him a live mouse. Since then, he has shown no interest at all in f/t but eats the live like a champ. I know there are two sides to every story, but was wondering if there is a way to get him back on f/t? Or if live is really that bad?

[Shiari]

There are many threads about this already. Skip a feeding, and then offer him the F/T (make sure it is very hot!). He should eat it just fine since he was willing before.

Cons for feeding live:

More expensive.
Can't always get the right size.
Parasites.
Snake could miss and get injured or even killed.
Cruel to the mouse.

[Sita]

Considering a live mouse could actually kill your snake in the blink of an eye, yeah, it really is that bad.

I agree to skip a feeding (assuming he's not ill or underweight to begin with) and try again. Be patient, leave it in there if he doesn't take it right away. If he doesn't eat it overnight, toss it and try again in a few days. Don't run out a get him a live one just because you want him to eat. When he gets hungry, he'll eat it.

[AliCat37]

Yep, just skip a feeding or two. They can go quite some time without a meal. I've noticed that my bull snake (who was wild caught and her previous owners only fed live) doesn't like if the mice are wet. I thaw them out in hot water, then I dry them with a towel and proceed to dry off with a hair dryer. I'll have to say that she takes f/t like a champ even after eating live her entire life. Since your corn was already eating f/t, he'll switch back.

[Lyion]

Not a huge fan of live, as f/t can go to live easy but live has a hard time going back to f/t. I can only say to heat up the mouse until it is about 100'F two weeks from now.

[Amberjolly]

Yep, just skip a feeding or two. They can go quite some time without a meal. I've noticed that my bull snake (who was wild caught and her previous owners only fed live) doesn't like if the mice are wet. I thaw them out in hot water, then I dry them with a towel and proceed to dry off with a hair dryer. I'll have to say that she takes f/t like a champ even after eating live her entire life. Since your corn was already eating f/t, he'll switch back.

another way to do this same thing but it makes it a bit easier is you could put the mouse in a plastic ziploc bag and put that in water it still makes the mouse hot and you dont have to dry it :)

[AliCat37]

another way to do this same thing but it makes it a bit easier is you could put the mouse in a plastic ziploc bag and put that in water it still makes the mouse hot and you dont have to dry it :)

I've tried it before, and I've noticed that it takes way longer to thaw out, plus the bags tend to leak! That's just my experience.

[Shiari]

Oddly enough, my snakes prefer their mouse damp.

[dukeofpiney]

Thanks to everyone that responded. After his shed last week, he took f/t after some convincing. This week he took f/t no problem.

[Wyldrose]

Oddly enough, my snakes prefer their mouse damp.

Yeah my adult corn was fed live until I got her. I offered her a f/t and she refused, defrosted in a baggy. I dipped the mouse in the warm water and Heart took it within 30 seconds lol! So now I thaw her mice in water.

All I can say is try f/t if she doesnt take it, wait another week.

[Carinata]

Considering a live mouse could actually kill your snake in the blink of an eye, yeah, it really is that bad.

I agree to skip a feeding (assuming he's not ill or underweight to begin with) and try again. Be patient, leave it in there if he doesn't take it right away. If he doesn't eat it overnight, toss it and try again in a few days. Don't run out a get him a live one just because you want him to eat. When he gets hungry, he'll eat it.

I'm just going to voice how I feel about this. Where I work we have a ton of Ball Pythons (super high end morphs), and we feed both live and F/T. I have done literally thousands of live feedings and never seen an issue. If you're an idiot and leave the mice in for days, then sure they could hurt your snake, but if you have a snake that doesn't eat F/T, feeding live can be done safely and responsibly.

[starsevol]

I'm just going to voice how I feel about this. Where I work we have a ton of Ball Pythons (super high end morphs), and we feed both live and F/T. I have done literally thousands of live feedings and never seen an issue. If you're an idiot and leave the mice in for days, then sure they could hurt your snake, but if you have a snake that doesn't eat F/T, feeding live can be done safely and responsibly.

Feeding live safely....maybe.
Feeding live responsibly...I really don't think so.
Feeding live when an animal will eat thawed ethically.....no, no, never.....

For one thing we are talking pythons and not colubrids.
And for another thing, if you want a snake that eats thawed, this is a good reason to avoid buying from a place like this instead of a private breeder who has their babies on thawed and can tell you every single thing about them.....

[Carinata]

I'm talking about feeding baby Ball Pythons live. Most baby Balls are very hard to get on F/T. Recently we have got most of them feeding on F/T, because it's easier. And many of them take it no problem. But many Balls just don't convert. I'm not going to let a snake die because it won't eat F/T. All our re-sale stuff gets F/T for the most part, because they're Corns, Boas, Milks, Kings ETC.

[starsevol]

I'm talking about feeding baby Ball Pythons live. Most baby Balls are very hard to get on F/T. Recently we have got most of them feeding on F/T, because it's easier. And many of them take it no problem. But many Balls just don't convert. I'm not going to let a snake die because it won't eat F/T. All our re-sale stuff gets F/T for the most part, because they're Corns, Boas, Milks, Kings ETC.

If it is all a snake will eat, I agree with you. But when there are other alternatives they should be used.
Plus, remember, this is not a ball python site.

[Carinata]

If it is all a snake will eat, I agree with you. But when there are other alternatives they should be used.
Plus, remember, this is not a ball python site.

Oh if we have F/T available, we use them on the ones that take it. I mean it's hard to feed live because it takes so much longer to feed. I'll sometimes feed upwards of a thousands snakes in a day. If I'm doing live it takes so much longer and I can't another task while the snakes are feeding. But when we have snakes that are stubborn. I have to do live.

[Sita]

Originally Posted by Sita
Considering a live mouse could actually kill your snake in the blink of an eye, yeah, it really is that bad.

I agree to skip a feeding (assuming he's not ill or underweight to begin with) and try again. Be patient, leave it in there if he doesn't take it right away. If he doesn't eat it overnight, toss it and try again in a few days. Don't run out a get him a live one just because you want him to eat. When he gets hungry, he'll eat it.

I'm just going to voice how I feel about this. Where I work we have a ton of Ball Pythons (super high end morphs), and we feed both live and F/T. I have done literally thousands of live feedings and never seen an issue. If you're an idiot and leave the mice in for days, then sure they could hurt your snake, but if you have a snake that doesn't eat F/T, feeding live can be done safely and responsibly.

I agree that if you have a snake that won't eat F/T, you're going to have to feed something else. But pre-killed is also an option, not just live, and every possible effort should be made to convert. I am glad you've been lucky so far in your live feedings, and someone responsible enough to actually monitor the feedings is likely going to be lucky most of the time. Watching the feeding is the main way to do it responsibly to a point! Since a mouse IS capable of killing a snake in a split second (the snake hits it anywhere except the head and the mouse buries its teeth into the snake's brain) there is no way to guarantee a safe outcome, short of pulling out the mouse's teeth beforehand...or giving the snake a helmet :)

So basically, it's possible to tip the odds in favor by monitoring, but seeing as it could happen, it's playing the lottery. Except if you win, you end up with a dead or injured snake. To me, unless the snake is going to die without a live mouse to feed it, that chance is NOT worth the risk.

[Lennycorn]

Feeding live safely....maybe.
Feeding live responsibly...I really don't think so.
Feeding live when an animal will eat thawed ethically.....no, no, never.....

For one thing we are talking pythons and not colubrids.
And for another thing, if you want a snake that eats thawed, this is a good reason to avoid buying from a place like this instead of a private breeder who has their babies on thawed and can tell you every single thing about them.....


Good points!
I would encourage suporting private breeder too!!

[Carinata]

Good points!
I would encourage suporting private breeder too!!

A large portion of our business is breeding. Some of the highest end and cutting edge Ball Pythons and one of a kind Rainbows.

[Lennycorn]

It seems that you missed the point.

[AliCat37]

Since a mouse IS capable of killing a snake in a split second (the snake hits it anywhere except the head and the mouse buries its teeth into the snake's brain) there is no way to guarantee a safe outcome, short of pulling out the mouse's teeth beforehand...or giving the snake a helmet :)


Okay, I keep seeing this put out there that snakes need to hit the head of the prey, but in my reptiles class we were taught that most snakes will strike at the center of the prey item because that's where the vital organs are and just the strike alone can knock the wind out of a rodent. I am not 100% sure on the accuracy of this information, and I don't feed live, but this is what we were taught, and it kind of makes sense (I wouldn't want to put my mouth which is my only means of catch prey near the sharp teeth of a rodent!). When I did feed my ball python live I would hold the mice over him, and he always tried to get past the head before making a strike.

But yes, there is no way to guarantee a safe outcome for the snake no matter how many precautions you take. I had a friend that used to only feed live, and her snake was coiled around the mouse and the mouse ended up biting her snake three different times before my friend could kill the mouse. Her snake was fine, but it was p/k after that. When I fed live, I got bitten a few times, and I did not like losing a mouse in my room >.>

I'm not sure why there is a debate going on right now about the live feedings at a work place, most big stores have that as the standard with ball pythons (even petco who says all their snakes eat f/t!). If someone is an employee, it is not always up to them whether or not they can offer f/t or prekilled.

[Carinata]

It seems that you missed the point.

What's the point then, Dave?

[Sita]

Originally Posted by Sita
Since a mouse IS capable of killing a snake in a split second (the snake hits it anywhere except the head and the mouse buries its teeth into the snake's brain) there is no way to guarantee a safe outcome, short of pulling out the mouse's teeth beforehand...or giving the snake a helmet

Okay, I keep seeing this put out there that snakes need to hit the head of the prey, but in my reptiles class we were taught that most snakes will strike at the center of the prey item because that's where the vital organs are and just the strike alone can knock the wind out of a rodent. I am not 100% sure on the accuracy of this information, and I don't feed live, but this is what we were taught, and it kind of makes sense (I wouldn't want to put my mouth which is my only means of catch prey near the sharp teeth of a rodent!). When I did feed my ball python live I would hold the mice over him, and he always tried to get past the head before making a strike.
...
I'm not sure why there is a debate going on right now about the live feedings at a work place, most big stores have that as the standard with ball pythons (even petco who says all their snakes eat f/t!). If someone is an employee, it is not always up to them whether or not they can offer f/t or prekilled.

I didn't say whether or not a snake is supposed to hit the head first, I just stated that IF the snake hits anywhere but the head, this is what can happen. I've no idea what most snakes actually do, but to me, it'd make more sense for the snake to grab the head first to immobilize, then wrap. If the snake grabs the belly, it'd have to wrapping over its own head in order to constrict. Now, for a venomous snake, I imagine the belly would be the target, in order to inject venom into the organs. I'd be interested in reading journal articles studying that! :)

I don't see a debate happening about feeding live at a workplace or whether an employee has a say in how the snakes are fed...Carinata and I were just discussing live feeding in general. :confused:

[Lennycorn]

Okay, I keep seeing this put out there that snakes need to hit the head of the prey, but in my reptiles class we were taught that most snakes will strike at the center of the prey item because that's where the vital organs are and just the strike alone can knock the wind out of a rodent. I am not 100% sure on the accuracy of this information, and I don't feed live, but this is what we were taught, and it kind of makes sense (I wouldn't want to put my mouth which is my only means of catch prey near the sharp teeth of a rodent!). When I did feed my ball python live I would hold the mice over him, and he always tried to get past the head before making a strike.

But yes, there is no way to guarantee a safe outcome for the snake no matter how many precautions you take. I had a friend that used to only feed live, and her snake was coiled around the mouse and the mouse ended up biting her snake three different times before my friend could kill the mouse. Her snake was fine, but it was p/k after that. When I fed live, I got bitten a few times, and I did not like losing a mouse in my room >.>

I'm not sure why there is a debate going on right now about the live feedings at a work place, most big stores have that as the standard with ball pythons (even petco who says all their snakes eat f/t!). If someone is an employee, it is not always up to them whether or not they can offer f/t or prekilled.

This seem to be what I hear most often.

What class are you taking??

[AliCat37]

What class are you taking??

I am in the Zookeeping Technology Program at my local community college. All my teachers are ex keepers and veterinarians, or current rescue/rehabbers of various sorts. So I'm almost done with my degree, but I had heard this in my Reptiles and Amphibians class.

[beautifullywild77]

I have seen and read horror stories about feeding live and not just here or bp.net but also in an aussie forum. I just wont take that risk with my scalebabies. I have fed live rat pups or hoppers to intice the feeding response along with the approperate size pre killed prey.

[Lennycorn]

I am in the Zookeeping Technology Program at my local community college. All my teachers are ex keepers and veterinarians, or current rescue/rehabbers of various sorts. So I'm almost done with my degree, but I had heard this in my Reptiles and Amphibians class.

Wow...that great that a local comunity college offers that.
Wish mine did.

Best of luck with it.

[visceralrepulsion]

These are the kind of results you can have with live prey, sadly.

[Carinata]

When you leave it on for 3 weeks, sure that can happen.

[Lennycorn]

These are the kind of results you can have with live prey, sadly.

Wow...that's a mean shot!!

[Wyldrose]

I remeber my cat got bit by a mouse, he had it in his mouth it bit his lip and it was swollen pretty bad. I have had pet mice most of my life, I want rats but they are banned here lol. So I know that they only bite if threatened.

Prey animals have 2 options when it comes down to it. Flight or fight. Mice and most prey animals will chose the flight option, if they can get away they will. In an enclosed tank they have no choice but to fight. I have a scar on my finger from an ASF(african soft furred rat, they are allowed here btw lol) I went to grab one out of the tank and a large female grabbed on to my finger lol. I didnt expect it and she flew across the petshop lol!
I have been bit, I have seen what bites have done(Just look up mouse/rat killed my snake videos on youtube) and I dont want to risk harming my pets. Most of the feeders I use have been bred by me, so I like to make sure they die a humane death before becoming food.

[beautifullywild77]

Actually some of the horror stories happen when the snake is coiled around the mouse or rat constricting it, not being left in the cage with them for days. There was a red tail boa at the vet that has been bitten by a rat while constricting and it ended in the euthanization of the RTB because the rat bit into the spin severing the spinal cord and paralyzing the bottom half of the body. It was a sad sight to see.

[Outcast]

I'm not sure why there is a debate going on right now about the live feedings at a work place, most big stores have that as the standard with ball pythons (even petco who says all their snakes eat f/t!). If someone is an employee, it is not always up to them whether or not they can offer f/t or prekilled.

I work at Petco, and I can guarantee you that none of our snakes are fed live. If it were up to me I would feed the Bp's that haven't eaten since we received them live pinks or fuzzies, but since we never have any in the store, they tend to go to their new owners without a meal in them... It kills me to know that animals that I have been trying to get to eat F/T at work ended up being sold to someone without having ever eaten for us. But, that is what you get from a corporate store. They do not care about the health of the animals, they care for the cash they receive. One of the reasons that I am tired of working in the retail pet industry, It is all about the all mighty dollar, not about the health of the animals being sold. and we wonder why there are so many groups out there trying to push bans on all exotic pet ownership...

[AliCat37]

I work at Petco, and I can guarantee you that none of our snakes are fed live. If it were up to me I would feed the Bp's that haven't eaten since we received them live pinks or fuzzies, but since we never have any in the store, they tend to go to their new owners without a meal in them... It kills me to know that animals that I have been trying to get to eat F/T at work ended up being sold to someone without having ever eaten for us. But, that is what you get from a corporate store. They do not care about the health of the animals, they care for the cash they receive. One of the reasons that I am tired of working in the retail pet industry, It is all about the all mighty dollar, not about the health of the animals being sold. and we wonder why there are so many groups out there trying to push bans on all exotic pet ownership...

Well then the petco here is different, because my friend works there, and he told me that they offer the male mice (the same one that are for sale) to the ball pythons. I was there when he was putting the mice and the snakes back in their cages after offering them.

[Outcast]

That is interesting, His store must be getting larger Bp's than mine. Our Bp's are too small to be taking adult mice, in fact I am surprised that they have not injured their snakes. Though, I do have a co-worker that went to work for the petco near her home town and they did not know how to properly care for their saltwater fish. In fact, she barely knows anything about SW fish and she quickly became the subject matter expert in that store.

BTW, we do sometimes get some hopper sized mice in the shipments, but never enough to give the snakes regular feedings on them. I would never try to feed an adult mouse to a baby BP though.