His first live one!

[guagerage]

This is his first live one and i want to know what eveyonr thinks? tips and pointers are welcome due to this is my first cornsanke.

http://youtu.be/dWzzOZirnOk

[Soulwind]

I can't actually watch the video at the moment, but I assume (since we're in the health and feeding forum area) that it's showing his first LIVE feeding?

If so, is there a specific reason you're feeding LIVE? Frozen/Thawed (F/T) is the commonly agreed upon best way to feed, followed by Fresh/PreKilled (P/K), with live feeding as basically the last resort before force-feeding.

The reasoning is that there's lots of potential issues and risks with live feedings.

[starsevol]

My thoughts....
I won't watch that video, my day has been bad enough already and I don't get off on watching one animal kill another.

I don't understand WHY anyone would feed live if their snake does fine on thawed.
I can be dangerous to the snake, not only because of a bite but because of parasites.
It is cruel to the mouse.

So to me, the only kind of people who would do such a thing are the kind of people that value their sick "entertainment" over their snakes safety, or a painless death for a small creature that is capable of fear and suffering.

[Outcast]

If you look in my albums under my animals, you will see my Adult Female, who was fed live, up until I got her. I fed her live once... If you look closely you will see the scar on the side of her neck where a live mouse has gotten her (long before I purchased her) and if you look at the scales on her head, you will notice a little black/brown spot. That was from the one live feeding that I did, where the mouse bit her. It happened in a split second, and I will never feed live again. A little lower on her head, she could have lost an eye, a little harder of a bite, she could have lost her life.

[Cassie16]

The consensus on this forum is to feed f/t. Many firmly believe that feeding live poses a great deal of risks to the snake. Many, myself included, also feel really bad for the poor mice that are fed live. For instance, if I were to watch your video, I would probably cry like a baby! Just be aware that you might not get a lot of positive feedback on your feeding on this site.

I understand that there's a genuine curiosity towards witnessing a snake kill a mouse first hand. I don't fault you for that, nor do I think you're a bad person. I guess if you're going to do it, make sure that you're snake is monitored, and that he is able and willing to constrict. The mouse shouldn't suffer any more than he already has to by not being killed via suffocation.

Also, I hope you consider making this an isolated experience. You don't want to get stuck in a situation where your snake has a preference for live. It will only become more dangerous for the snake once the prey gets larger. Also, I can't imagine dooming myself to a sentence of picking up a live mouse every 7-14 days. I'm burdened enough with thawing the things; picking up a live one that often sounds like work!

[guagerage]

while i see your point of parasites i do not think it is sick entertainment. this is what they do hunt and stalk prey its nature. i grew up and watched my dad kill chickens to feed us when times got bad.

[guagerage]

cassie 16 thanks for your feedback and im not trying to entice that everyone should feed live. i made this choice and i know the dangers of it. as far as genuine curiosity i got youtube for that.

[starsevol]

while i see your point of parasites i do not think it is sick entertainment. this is what they do hunt and stalk prey its nature. i grew up and watched my dad kill chickens to feed us when times got bad.

Yes, they stalk and hunt prey in NATURE. Living in a box in your bedroom and having a mouse thrown in once a week IS NOT NATURE.
Is this snake a pet or a wild animal?
And if it is a pet, why not let your other pets live "naturally"....
Your dogs and cats can catch their own food and die from rabies, distemper, coyotes, starvation, heavy parasite loads and other wonderful natural things.

[Outcast]

while i see your point of parasites i do not think it is sick entertainment. this is what they do hunt and stalk prey its nature. i grew up and watched my dad kill chickens to feed us when times got bad.

1) Hunting and stalking prey in the wild is completely different than being thrown into an Arena with prey that could potentially kill you. (Yes, mice have killed snakes before, it takes a split second)

2)I grew up on a farm and have killed, cleaned, and put my fair share of chickens/ rabbits in the freezer. I have helped do this sort of thing since I was roughly 10, and have witnessed it being done literally my whole life. It did not matter if times were rough or not. If we had too many roosters or male rabbits, we would cull them and make stew, or other tasty foods.

3)The parasite risk is very real. Nanci, one of the mods, has actually posted links to study's on the parasites transfered to snakes from live food.

4) The reason that Starsevol posted the "sick entertainment" thing is because many people who feed snakes that readily take F/T do it because of morbid curiosity.

I hope you see my points as reasons why your opinions on the matter are mute, and not a direct attack. Sometimes I come off as a harsh individual.

Personally I would feed F/T, it is safer for the snake. Your snake does not benifit from live feeding. And honestly, neither does your wallet.

Though there are some people who would try to convince you that F/T causes the snake to loose its "instincts". That sentiment is not true either. If you get some tongs and do the Zombie Snake Dance with the mouse, the snake will still constrict. I do it from time to time with my snakes, which is proof that their constricting instincts have not been lost.

[Outcast]

And, because I am sure that you will not go look at the picture I directed you to earlier....

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1278&pictureid=11333
As you can see, a pretty large scar on her neck, and right above her eye is a fresh wound from a live mouse... The only live mouse that she has had while in my care.

[Lyion]

The mouse thrown into the enclosure is unatural. A mouse in the wild would be able to run, the snake would have to ambush it, not simply corner it.

[guagerage]

did i miss something on not to feed live? i just want someone who does feed live to see if he is doing ok or see if i should do something different to help with the choice i made.

[Lyion]

Alright. I will comment on the saftey. He is not a very aggressive feeder and he does not eat head first. If this diet continues he is in more danger than most corns on live

[Lyion]

If you want to continue this diet I will be respectful but I would suggest you feed F/T until he becomes more aggressive with feeding.

[guagerage]

thank you lyion

[Nanci]

This is his first live one and i want to know what eveyonr thinks? tips and pointers are welcome due to this is my first cornsanke.

http://youtu.be/dWzzOZirnOk

I think we are all snake owners here and are well aware of how snakes kill and eat their prey. Yours is no different. Tips and pointers would be, why the heck do you want to feed live if you don't have to? But- no one listens to reason, you have your "rights," so as you were...

[starsevol]

did i miss something on not to feed live? i just want someone who does feed live to see if he is doing ok or see if i should do something different to help with the choice i made.

Apparently you have missed ALOT of things....
and yes you should do something different...like NOT feed live!!!

Unless of course you like parasites in your snake, and the possibility that he could lose an eye someday, and you like going to the pet shop every week and spending alot of live when thaweed is much safer, cheaper and easier.

Unless the spectacle gives you some sort of psycho-sexual thrill that matters more to you than your pet's health, and if that is the case you are just a selfish pet owner that is beyond any kind of help.

[Cassie16]

The topic of feeding live has become a source of heated debate on this site. It's a hot button issue, the "abortion" of cornsnakes.com. There isn't a middle ground; those who are against it will not be swayed, and visa versa.

Most people on this site passionately and wholeheartedly disagree with the practice, and are equipped with well-thought, documented forms of argument against it. If there are regular users who feed live, I assume they refrain from discussing it. Those who bring it up usually find themselves at odds with everyone. I would say not to let that discourage you from gleaming knowledge from the wonderful users on this site.

I guess it's like my relationship with my coworkers- I adore them, gain a great deal of insight from them, but refrain from discussing religion/gun rights/capital punishment with them, because I would hate for our relationship to be marred by a difference in opinion.

I personally don't see any benefits of feeding live, and that's that. I also really don't think anyone who does it is a "sicko" or engaging in sick entertainment. If I told my boyfriend right now, "go pick up a live mouse- this is going down", he would jump at the opportunity, and I don't fault him for that. (Although I wouldn't let it happen! We would end up with a pet mouse, not a meal for the snake!)

I can respect the sport of hunting, although I would never engage in it myself. It's sort of the same thing to me. It could be argued that hunting doesn't put your pet in danger, but I'm ignoring that :)

[BloodyBaroness]

I feed live, but ONLY to animals that will absolutely not take frozen thawed. I do it for corns and ball pythons. I have done it for years and years. I've seen the damage a rodent can do.

You can see in the first few seconds of the video, your snake is clearly used to eating frozen thawed. It had no clue what to do with a live prey item. If that rodent was a size that had teeth your snake WOULD have been bitten and bitten badly.

Based on the reaction of your snake, it's a bad choice to feed him live. He tried to start eating it just like a frozen/thawed item.

If you must feed live, pre-kill them.

There is no reason on earth why your snake can't eat pre-killed.

[Soulwind]

Guagerage,

While we (mostly) all here advocate F/T over Live, in the end it is your choice to make. We don't think it's the right choice, but it is your choice.

However, your initial post didn't read as "I've made my choice to do live feedings and want to get tips and tricks from other live feeders as to the best way to go about it".

Your post:
"This is his first live one and i want to know what eveyonr thinks? tips and pointers are welcome due to this is my first cornsanke."

Which (to me at least) reads more like "I'm looking for info from other keepers as this is my first snake, oh and I just fed him a live mouse [probably doing as I was told to do by the pet store guy]"

[diamondlil]

did i miss something on not to feed live? i just want someone who does feed live to see if he is doing ok or see if i should do something different to help with the choice i made.
The general consensus among keepers (here and elsewhere) is that feeding live is risky to the snake and cruel to the prey. If we do feed live it's usually in desperation to kick-start a feeding response in a snake that is otherwise in a cycle of non-feeding and losing weight.
Personallly I've had to feed live and stunned mice to non-feeding snakes and converted them to f/t as soon as I could. I dangle hot thawed rodents or chicks for my corns and get a full-out feeding strike and constriction from all of them so I certainly don't need to feed live to see how awesome that process is.
All these photos are my snakes busy 'killing' thawed mice

[crotalis40741]

did i miss something on not to feed live? i just want someone who does feed live to see if he is doing ok or see if i should do something different to help with the choice i made.


Most here know my stand on things such as this. I will not bash or defend. If one does not want to feed f/t that is on them. I have fed live and still do on occassion. But my version of live is a mostly incapacitated rodent.
Beth I am not trying to cause a battle on this. Where your snake is young a rodent can't do much damage other than parasites but as it gets older and needs larger prey items the risk of damage is way higher.
There are so many of these threads on here and they always end the same way. Usually not with a video though. As you will see if you search these threads they have ALL went south in a hurry.
My suggestion to the OP is to just let the thread die. This would be an uphill battle pushing a tank while dragging an aircraft carrier.

[7legion77]

I think the OP is joking. Clicked on a dead link.

If you want to see a beautiful kill in slow motion, check this one out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxR5mkGc9sU&oref=http%3A%2F%2F

The advantages of F/T vs frozen aren't as black and white as people on here make it seem. I admire their altruism, but feeding live doesn't make us evil/cruel/irresponsible in any way, it is more propaganda than sound, rational advice. I'm sure they'll tell you otherwise but don't let them under your skin.
If you want to feed live, makes sure the snake is REALLY hungry, so he gets a focused and frenzied lunge, such as in the video above. It doesn't hurt to "starve" your snake for 2 weeks (i.e. not to overfeed) he will also grow up slimmer and more fit. And don't feed a prey item item too large. If you don't like prekilling/handling and thawing dead mice, and prefer to watch the snake work for his food (instead of spoon feeding it like a baby) then live feeding is a perfectly acceptable option as long as you do it right. The "risk factor" that you read on the internetz is real, but very exaggerated.

[Soulwind]

And I think Baroness has pretty much covered it there.

[BloodyBaroness]

I'll just go ahead and toss this in here.

This ball python was given a live rat. The owner went to the store and had been gone around 2 hours...

This is what it looked like when he returned.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=658&pictureid=11498

That animal had ALWAYS been an aggressive feeder, killed his rats with no problems. Did not think twice about giving it a live rat. The snake died from the injury.

Pre-kill the food.

[Cassie16]

Also, and I'm just putting this out there, but while most of us don't agree with feeding live, I don't see the harm in refraining from arguing and perhaps letting the small majority who does agree with it discuss it. Just because the majority of us share an opinion, I don't think that means that this is cornsnake.com law.

As I recall, he asked for tips and pointers, which leads me to believe he's looking for advice on how to ensure his live feeding proceeds safely and without a hitch. By arguing with him, we're kind of preventing him from obtaining sound advice (that someone might be willing to offer, if they weren't trying to avoid subjecting themselves to an angry debate)

It's like giving birth control to teenagers: you don't have to agree with teenagers having sex, but they're going to regardless of what you tell them. With that assumption, wouldn't it be safer to just let the discussion of feeding live in a safe manner proceed between advocates (no matter how few there are)? Those of us who disagree can read other threads, after all. At the end of the day, the matter of feeding live is an opinion, and no matter how many eloquently phrased arguments we have, we cannot claim that our thoughts are the right ones.

[crotalis40741]

I think the OP is joking. Clicked on a dead link.

If you want to see a beautiful kill in slow motion, check this one out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxR5mkGc9sU&oref=http%3A%2F%2F

The advantages of F/T vs frozen aren't as black and white as people on here make it seem. I admire their altruism, but feeding live doesn't make us evil/cruel/irresponsible in any way, it is more propaganda than sound, rational advice. I'm sure they'll tell you otherwise but don't let them under your skin.
If you want to feed live, makes sure the snake is REALLY hungry, so he gets a focused and frenzied lunge, such as in the video above. It doesn't hurt to "starve" your snake for 2 weeks (i.e. not to overfeed) he will also grow up slimmer and more fit. And don't feed a prey item item too large. If you don't like prekilling/handling and thawing dead mice, and prefer to watch the snake work for his food (instead of spoon feeding it like a baby) then live feeding is a perfectly acceptable option as long as you do it right. The "risk factor" that you read on the internetz is real, but very exaggerated.


Thank you for adding gas to an already hot fire. Why is it a must to constantly stir already heated emotions?

[starsevol]

Most here know my stand on things such as this. I will not bash or defend. If one does not want to feed f/t that is on them. I have fed live and still do on occassion. But my version of live is a mostly incapacitated rodent.
Beth I am not trying to cause a battle on this. Where your snake is young a rodent can't do much damage other than parasites but as it gets older and needs larger prey items the risk of damage is way higher.
There are so many of these threads on here and they always end the same way. Usually not with a video though. As you will see if you search these threads they have ALL went south in a hurry.
My suggestion to the OP is to just let the thread die. This would be an uphill battle pushing a tank while dragging an aircraft carrier.

Bob, you know I love you. (Dangit you'd BETTER know, LOL).
And I believe with all my heart that you are not unneccessasarily cruel.
That makes an enormous difference to me.

[crotalis40741]

Bob, you know I love you. (Dangit you'd BETTER know, LOL).
And I believe with all my heart that you are not unneccessasarily cruel.
That makes an enormous difference to me.


Thank you Beth.

[starsevol]

Also, and I'm just putting this out there, but while most of us don't agree with feeding live, I don't see the harm in refraining from arguing and perhaps letting the small majority who does agree with it discuss it. Just because the majority of us share an opinion, I don't think that means that this is cornsnake.com law.

As I recall, he asked for tips and pointers, which leads me to believe he's looking for advice on how to ensure his live feeding proceeds safely and without a hitch. By arguing with him, we're kind of preventing him from obtaining sound advice (that someone might be willing to offer, if they weren't trying to avoid subjecting themselves to an angry debate)

It's like giving birth control to teenagers: you don't have to agree with teenagers having sex, but they're going to regardless of what you tell them. With that assumption, wouldn't it be safer to just let the discussion of feeding live in a safe manner proceed between advocates (no matter how few there are)? Those of us who disagree can read other threads, after all. At the end of the day, the matter of feeding live is an opinion, and no matter how many eloquently phrased arguments we have, we cannot claim that our thoughts are the right ones.


I did not watch the video, but if his snake is as slow on the draw as has been suggested, then his animal stands a better than average chance of being really hurt by live food anyway. And if it ALREADY eats thawed with no problem, then this person is being truly selfish putting his snake at risk that way.

Thank you for adding gas to an already hot fire. Why is it a must to constantly stir already heated emotions?

Bob, that "keeper" (and I use the term loosely....) is nothing more than a trollish piece of work. Best to not respond to it and hope it rots....like I do.

[BloodyBaroness]

Thank you for adding gas to an already hot fire. Why is it a must to constantly stir already heated emotions?

Because 7legion77 is a troll, and openly admitted as such in the other thread.

Bickering and stirring the pot is not the answer here.

Responding to 7legion77 is feeding a troll. Toss him on ignore and we can get back to actually educating users and helping people with real questions.

[starsevol]

Thank you Beth.

You are welcome sir. :)
Glad you know you are not in my crosshairs.
(HUGS)

[Nanci]

Also, and I'm just putting this out there, but while most of us don't agree with feeding live, I don't see the harm in refraining from arguing and perhaps letting the small majority who does agree with it discuss it. Just because the majority of us share an opinion, I don't think that means that this is cornsnake.com law.

As I recall, he asked for tips and pointers, which leads me to believe he's looking for advice on how to ensure his live feeding proceeds safely and without a hitch. By arguing with him, we're kind of preventing him from obtaining sound advice (that someone might be willing to offer, if they weren't trying to avoid subjecting themselves to an angry debate)



Whenever a new person comes on here and says they "know the risks," it is highly doubtful that they do. IF they researched everything they need to know about when live feeding is and is not indicated, they wouldn't be on here asking for advice or looking for pointers in the first place.

You CANNOT ensure that live feeding has a safe outcome. You can do your best to limit the risk of injury to the snake. You can't ensure the snake will not be injured.

And you are still needlessly torturing a live animal, the prey.

And you are still exposing the snake to parasites.

Which leads us to the question, what kind of person knowingly accepts these risks for the animal who depends on him for his safety and well-being when it isn't absolutely necessary?

[Lyion]

If you really want to feed live we cannot stop you. Bashing may only make you more stubburn. I will give you all the advice I can if this is how you want to go. I advise you dangle frozen F/T or fresh kill over him until he gets used to grabbing it and puling it down. Always watch no matter how many times he has been fed. If he does not immediatly go for the mouse, remove him ASAP

[7legion77]

Also, and I'm just putting this out there, but while most of us don't agree with feeding live, I don't see the harm in refraining from arguing and perhaps letting the small majority who does agree with it discuss it. Just because the majority of us share an opinion, I don't think that means that this is cornsnake.com law.

As I recall, he asked for tips and pointers, which leads me to believe he's looking for advice on how to ensure his live feeding proceeds safely and without a hitch. By arguing with him, we're kind of preventing him from obtaining sound advice (that someone might be willing to offer, if they weren't trying to avoid subjecting themselves to an angry debate)

It's like giving birth control to teenagers: you don't have to agree with teenagers having sex, but they're going to regardless of what you tell them. With that assumption, wouldn't it be safer to just let the discussion of feeding live in a safe manner proceed between advocates (no matter how few there are)? Those of us who disagree can read other threads, after all. At the end of the day, the matter of feeding live is an opinion, and no matter how many eloquently phrased arguments we have, we cannot claim that our thoughts are the right ones.

Thank you for that, babe!

In response to BloodyBaronness, I am sometimes purposely trolling :cheers:.
Right now I'm being honest. I'm only trying to help these forums, so this debate isn't so heavily biased because that is healthier for the community here. Why make it so esoteric? What kind pet care internet forum ostracizes and drives away people who don't agree with an opinion? I have never seen this before. Cassie is the only one in this thread who's making any sense.

[starsevol]

Whenever a new person comes on here and says they "know the risks," it is highly doubtful that they do. IF they researched everything they need to know about when live feeding is and is not indicated, they wouldn't be on here asking for advice or looking for pointers in the first place.

You CANNOT ensure that live feeding has a safe outcome. You can do your best to limit the risk of injury to the snake. You can't ensure the snake will not be injured.

And you are still needlessly torturing a live animal, the prey.

And you are still exposing the snake to parasites.

Which leads us to the question, what kind of person knowingly accepts these risks for the animal who depends on him for his safety and well-being when it isn't absolutely necessary?

Apparently a troll called legion......

[crotalis40741]

When I walk on by, girls be looking like damn he fly
I pimp to the beat, walking down the street in my new la freak,
yeahThis is how I roll, animal print pants out control
It's Red Foo with the big afroAn like Bruce Leroy I got the glow, yo(Ahhh) Girl look at that body)I-I-I work out(Ahhh) Girl look at that body )I-I-I work outWhen I walk in the spot, (yea) this is what I see (okaay)Everybody stops and they staring at meI got a passion in my pants and I ain't afraid to show it, show it, show it, show it...I'm sexy and I know it
WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE

[starsevol]

When I walk on by, girls be looking like damn he fly
I pimp to the beat, walking down the street in my new la freak,
yeahThis is how I roll, animal print pants out control
It's Red Foo with the big afroAn like Bruce Leroy I got the glow, yo(Ahhh) Girl look at that body)I-I-I work out(Ahhh) Girl look at that body )I-I-I work outWhen I walk in the spot, (yea) this is what I see (okaay)Everybody stops and they staring at meI got a passion in my pants and I ain't afraid to show it, show it, show it, show it...I'm sexy and I know it
WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE

Just one small example of why I loves you!!

[Lyion]

XD bob! That was random and I'm hoping an attempt to calm people.

[Nanci]

In response to BloodyBaronness, I am sometimes purposely trolling :cheers:.


You've been told by the site owner, Rich Z, not to troll. You should probably be careful.

[jovamabob]

I live in the UK and over here it is illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another vertebrate - even if i wanted to live feed i wouldn't be able too. The Animal Welfare Act bans it - mostly because it is terrible welfare for both parties - both become incredibly stressed and it is very dangerous for both the prey and the predator if done even a tiny bit wrong. A lot of captive kept/bred animals don't possess all of the instincts they need to kill prey anymore either thanks to captive breeding slowly domesticating the animal.
To be honest i only ever feed my snake pre-killed mice, mostly because of the law and for convenience. I can buy a large number in bulk and just grab one out of the freezer as and when. I don't see the need to feed live food to a snake that's accustomed to taking pre-killed ones. If the snake won't feed on pre-killed ones, you don't need to immediately feed live either. Simply waiting till it is more hungry, warming the rodent and waving it around often does the trick, and if not exposing brain matter in a pre-killed rodent naturally entices the snake to eat. Force-feeding can be done in desperate circumstances.
However if you decide that you prefer to feed live food then that is entirely your choice. Just make sure to check it is legal in your country/state and ensure to do it safely and as humanely as possible 100% of the time.

[7legion77]

You've been told by the site owner, Rich Z, not to troll. You should probably be careful.

I know, he put me in my place. Right now I am being dead honest and not just trying to get a rise out of you guys.
If you want censorship then go ahead and ban me. I will still speak my mind because this forum needs some balance regarding this argument.

[guagerage]

wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!

[Shiari]

The advantages of F/T vs frozen aren't as black and white as people on here make it seem. I admire their altruism, but feeding live doesn't make us evil/cruel/irresponsible in any way, it is more propaganda than sound, rational advice.

Yes it is.

Pros for F/T:
Cheaper, especially if you have multiple snakes.
Always able to have correct prey size on hand.
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Significantly less risk as a source for parasites.

Cons:
Other people in household may not like having numerous rodents in the freezer.

Pros for feeding P/K:
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Can be frozen if snake is uninterested, for later use.

Cons:
Can get expensive if you have multiple snakes and don't breed your own.
Stinky mouse smell if you do breed your own.
May not have correct prey size.

Pros for feeding live:
None.

Cons:
Potential for injury or death to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
Potential for injury or death to snake if it misses or coils incorrectly.
Potential for transmissible parasites, resulting in vet bills.
Housing for mouse in case snake is 'uninterested' unless breeding your own.
May not have correct prey size.
Expensive, especially for multiple snakes, unless breeding your own.


Feeding live should be a last resort, "my snake absolutely won't eat anything else" situation.

And for the emotional part, while Legion there is incapable of empathy for mice, do please keep in mind that this is a living feeling creature you are feeding to your snake. It can feel terror and pain. If it is going to die anyway, shouldn't that death be painless and free from fear?

[BloodyBaroness]

wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!

He looks like the type that will not do well with live. (My posts actually address this directly.)

Feed him pre-killed if you must.

It's clear by his behavior he is used to frozen/thawed.

A mouse with teeth will injure your snake, based on the response he showed in the video.

[Lyion]

Guag, I have told you that I advise you first get him to be a more aggressive feeder. Many people get angered by this topic but some of us do want to help you. Please read each and every comment as education is all we can offer at this point. :) Sorry about this. The community gets fired up about this more than any other topic and I apologize. Please do not think bad of us for this. We only want best for the snake and for you as an owner

[crotalis40741]

Can we please just let this die now? Everyone has said thier two cents and it would probably be better for everyone around if the thread just died in its own suffocation. Lets be friends not the hord that chased Frankenstien.

[diamondlil]

I live in the UK and over here it is illegal to feed a live vertebrate to another vertebrate - even if i wanted to live feed i wouldn't be able too. The Animal Welfare Act bans it - mostly because it is terrible welfare for both parties - both become incredibly stressed and it is very dangerous for both the prey and the predator if done even a tiny bit wrong. A lot of captive kept/bred animals don't possess all of the instincts they need to kill prey anymore either thanks to captive breeding slowly domesticating the animal.
To be honest i only ever feed my snake pre-killed mice, mostly because of the law and for convenience. I can buy a large number in bulk and just grab one out of the freezer as and when. I don't see the need to feed live food to a snake that's accustomed to taking pre-killed ones. If the snake won't feed on pre-killed ones, you don't need to immediately feed live either. Simply waiting till it is more hungry, warming the rodent and waving it around often does the trick, and if not exposing brain matter in a pre-killed rodent naturally entices the snake to eat. Force-feeding can be done in desperate circumstances.
However if you decide that you prefer to feed live food then that is entirely your choice. Just make sure to check it is legal in your country/state and ensure to do it safely and as humanely as possible 100% of the time.
That's an excellent answer, but incorrect. It is not illegal here, if it can be proved that it is to feed a snake that would otherwise be starving to death. It must not be done in public or cause unneccesary suffering. It must be under the advice of a veternarian and be deemed an exceptional circumstance. Force-feeding is in itself stressful to the snake and can actually make the transition to independent feeding more difficult.

[Nanci]

wow! just wanted some feedback on if maybe he was to small to start live feeding? or if i didnt do something right to get him ready to eat. a video was the best way for people to see what i saw and say "hey he looks to small and young to start that" not to be told i am a bad person or a terrible pet owner!

Why do you want to feed live?

[Lyion]

Yes it is.

Pros for F/T:
Cheaper, especially if you have multiple snakes.
Always able to have correct prey size on hand.
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Significantly less risk as a source for parasites.

Cons:
Other people in household may not like having numerous rodents in the freezer.

Pros for feeding P/K:
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Can be frozen if snake is uninterested, for later use.

Cons:
Can get expensive if you have multiple snakes and don't breed your own.
Stinky mouse smell if you do breed your own.
May not have correct prey size.

Pros for feeding live:
None.

Cons:
Potential for injury or death to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
Potential for injury or death to snake if it misses or coils incorrectly.
Potential for transmissible parasites, resulting in vet bills.
Housing for mouse in case snake is 'uninterested' unless breeding your own.
May not have correct prey size.
Expensive, especially for multiple snakes, unless breeding your own.


Feeding live should be a last resort, "my snake absolutely won't eat anything else" situation.

And for the emotional part, while Legion there is incapable of empathy for mice, do please keep in mind that this is a living feeling creature you are feeding to your snake. It can feel terror and pain. If it is going to die anyway, shouldn't that death be painless and free from fear?

:) It's alright Shiari. Maybe only a bad experience may get him to understand. We do not want him to hate the site for this as we all know the amazing advice thar our community has to offer. We did, after all spawn the munson plan.

[Farmgirl]

well putting in my 2 cents.............

I beleive that any snake that will eat killed food (fresh or frozen) should be fed killed food. Reptile vets are expensive and snake-skin takes FOREVER to heal properly. I personally could find way better ways to spend a couple hundred dollars than to vet my snake for a completely avoidable injury.

[Cassie16]

Whenever a new person comes on here and says they "know the risks," it is highly doubtful that they do. IF they researched everything they need to know about when live feeding is and is not indicated, they wouldn't be on here asking for advice or looking for pointers in the first place.

You CANNOT ensure that live feeding has a safe outcome. You can do your best to limit the risk of injury to the snake. You can't ensure the snake will not be injured.

And you are still needlessly torturing a live animal, the prey.

And you are still exposing the snake to parasites.

Which leads us to the question, what kind of person knowingly accepts these risks for the animal who depends on him for his safety and well-being when it isn't absolutely necessary?

I share your opinions of feeding live. In fact, I would say mine are of a carbon copy to yours. That's my disclaimer. I agree with you.

That being said, I don't agree when threads whose subject matters differ from the majority opinion are intercepted by slews of arguments. As of now, feeding live is not illegal in the United States, and therefore is still an opinion and a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I say that earnestly!), but I don't think there is a rule on this site stating that we are not to discuss matters in which the majority, or mods, do not condone. I implore you to understand that I say that respectfully and without an ounce of malice.

I think there's a fine line between presenting facts and butting out those with different mindsets from discussing certain matters. That line seems to be crossed quite frequently. As I said, because feeding live is not illegal, it's still a choice we have to make. It makes me uncomfortable that anyone possessing a varying opinion is essentially prevented from discussing it.

On a separate note, I am not familiar with the previous discussions involving 7legion, but I didn't think his comments in this particular thread were any more inflammatory or bating than anything else that was being said. It certainly wasn't the popular opinion, but in no way did I consider it "troll-like"

[hetfeildfan]

Yay sick entertainment! I watched your video, all of it. Because I am not scared nor do I have any misconceptions about the lives and deaths of snakes and their prey in the wild. To bad this is turning out to be a debate on live vs thaw. I think what you are going for is for others to watch your video and then comment. Well it looked like Barry earned his dinner. He had a bit of a time with that pinky. Job well done though! Nicely made video. Barry did not do much for constricting and it looked to me like the mouse was fighting all the way. I dont know if corns have to learn to constrict or not. Mine takes prekilled and doesnt constrict at all, but if I jig the mouse and twirl it a bit he will constrict sort of half ass. I dont have much for advice for you. You wanted to see your Barry eat a live pinky and it did him no harm. You are not the first. Whether or not that was a bad thing to do can be discussed in another thread. IMHO Cheers!

[Lyion]

Yay sick entertainment! I watched your video, all of it. Because I am not scared nor do I have any misconceptions about the lives and deaths of snakes and their prey in the wild. To bad this is turning out to be a debate on live vs thaw. I think what you are going for is for others to watch your video and then comment. Well it looked like Barry earned his dinner. He had a bit of a time with that pinky. Job well done though! Nicely made video. Barry did not do much for constricting and it looked to me like the mouse was fighting all the way. I dont know if corns have to learn to constrict or not. Mine takes prekilled and doesnt constrict at all, but if I jig the mouse and twirl it a bit he will constrict sort of half ass. I dont have much for advice for you. You wanted to see your Barry eat a live pinky and it did him no harm. You are not the first. Whether or not that was a bad thing to do can be discussed in another thread. IMHO Cheers!

It is unfortunatly nessicary for him to constrict if they eat live. They must eat head first and constrict otherwise they are in very much danger!

[BloodyBaroness]

It is unfortunatly nessicary for him to constrict if they eat live. They must eat head first and constrict otherwise they are in very much danger!

Lyion is right.

If that mouse had teeth at all, it would be game over for Barry.

Barry did everything wrong and would have been injured.

[guagerage]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.

[BloodyBaroness]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.

No. Easy now, don't get ahead of yourself.

Little Barry just seems like a bad candidate for live. I doubt any amount of "training or conditioning" will change his response.

Dangle a f/t or pre-killed mouse. He may one day constrict, just tug it a little and it will be just as stimulating for him.

I have full grown corns that have never constricted a single prey item. Barry seems like a dainty eater too.

[crotalis40741]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.



I am sorry but I still think even though most don't agree with this that there is a better way of debating this or giving advice than to mercilessly pounce on someone. And a better way of accepting advice when offered.

[Farmgirl]

no-one said that at all!! All wer're saying is according to the video, your particular snake does not feed in a way that would be safe to offer live prey. If he does not grab it by the head, then his meal can bite back and do considerable, possibly fatal damage (when on larger prey of course!!) If he does not constrict it to kill it, the same can happen.

No one called you horrible (ie: Micheal Vick) just that your particular snake eats in such a way that live food could be very dangerous to him and very expensive for you.

[Shiari]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.

Not in any way. But you were fairly uninformed about it. There are no objective benefits to your snake to feed live, and plenty of potential consequences. I have fed live when absolutely necessary, always pinkies, and it always horrifies me/gives me the heebyjeebies because my babies didn't kill it first either. I could hear it squeaking in pain and terror from *inside* my snake. And being a vet tech, I know exactly what it was going through before it finally expired.

Have you ever vomited and had stomach acid end up inside your sinuses? That horrible burning pain? Well... that's what the pinkies experience, basically inside and out, before they finally die from shock or asphyxiate.

We, as human beings, are better than that and should actively work to prevent such unless there is no other way.

[Lyion]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.

Several remaining people are not accusing you of anything. However, this particular snake is poor at eating live.

A snake should go for a head strike and coil on contact. This snake does a good job here @ 1:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmUP_3LQbGg . Barry may start coiling with larger mice but in the mean time practice extreme caution.

[7legion77]

We, as human beings, are better than that and should actively work to prevent such unless there is no other way.

Sounds like I am morally a Neanderthal then.
Here's my pro/con list:

F/T:

Pros: Safe and humane!
Cons: Artificial!

Live:

Pros: Beautiful to watch! Psychosexual thrill!
Cons: THE MOUSE MIGHT WIN

[Nanci]

i'm the michael vick of cornsnakes for feeding him a live mouse.

Why do you want to feed live?

[beautifullywild77]

I personally have never taken a video or picture of my snakes eating. I find no entertainment value in it at. I feed f/t but have fed live on occasion. I have a corn snake like Barry that doesnt have the feeding response needed. He eats it buttend or tries to go for it sideways. He just never got it.

No Michael Vick... but I would take what others are saying and think about it. Research more. I personaly just would never want to risk my snakes even if the risks are far and few between.

[Lyion]

He took a video to show us how he ate and to see if he did anything wrong, not for entertainment.

I personally have never taken a video or picture of my snakes eating. I find no entertainment value in it at. I feed f/t but have fed live on occasion. I have a corn snake like Barry that doesnt have the feeding response needed. He eats it buttend or tries to go for it sideways. He just never got it.

No Michael Vick... but I would take what others are saying and think about it. Research more. I personaly just would never want to risk my snakes even if the risks are far and few between.

[Lyion]

Why do you want to feed live?

Nanci, all we can do now is educate him on how to make this safer.

[Shiari]

Sounds like I am morally a Neanderthal then.



Nope. Neanderthal were human as well.


Here's my pro/con list:
F/T:

Pros: Safe and humane!
Cons: Artificial!

Live:

Pros: Beautiful to watch! Psychosexual thrill!
Cons: THE MOUSE MIGHT WIN

You complain about 'artificial' feedings while your snakes live in wood, glass, or plastic boxes? There is not enough facepalm for this.

Cons: Your snake could die. But that's okay, because you find it exciting. Also, what happened to the 'reasoned' arguments, rather than emotional appeals?

[Farmgirl]

you know, all my female corns strike at the head and coil to "kill" thier F/T prey. They even keep the coil long enough to kill the prey were it not already dead!!

My males (without exception, even the one who was fed live before coming home to me) are lazy eaters, they don't strike, they don't coil, they just slither up and grab the nearest end and start pulling it down!!

[guagerage]

He took a video to show us how he ate and to see if he did anything wrong, not for entertainment.

you are right if he is doing it wrong people need to see it so i can go back to f/t instead of feeding him live!

[Lyion]

Well then. Legion just showed the bad side of live feeders. The issue is, many people will think you are like him. The fact that he gets a sexual thrill from this is disgusting. There are responsible live feeders, and you guage are trying your best for your snake to get a good life out of this. But Legion gives us snake fans a bad name, and people got upset and angry at you because they thought you got that thrill from it.

[Lyion]

I have noticed males to be bad feeders compared to females as well, Farm. Perhaps because females try to bulk up for reproducing?

[Lyion]

So I apologize Guage

[Farmgirl]

Sounds like I am morally a Neanderthal then.
Here's my pro/con list:

F/T:

Pros: Safe and humane!
Cons: Artificial!

Live:

Pros: Beautiful to watch! Psychosexual thrill!
Cons: THE MOUSE MIGHT WIN


is trolling your hobby??
157696

[guagerage]

not needed you have helped

[diamondlil]

you are right if he is doing it wrong people need to see it so i can go back to f/t instead of feeding him live!
Honestly? Your snake is rubbish at strike feeding and totally inefficient at killing. Live mice aren't better than thawed mice for feeding in any way, they carry parasites that are killed by freezing that can infect your snake and when they are big enough to defend themselves they can inflict serious injuries. So why do you want to feed live mice rather than F/T?

[Lyion]

Honestly? Your snake is rubbish at strike feeding and totally inefficient at killing. Live mice aren't better than thawed mice for feeding in any way, they carry parasites that are killed by freezing that can infect your snake and when they are big enough to defend themselves they can inflict serious injuries. So why do you want to feed live mice rather than F/T?

Calm down Diamond. I think he understands.

[Farmgirl]

I have noticed males to be bad feeders compared to females as well, Farm. Perhaps because females try to bulk up for reproducing?

quite possible.

I also find one of my males refuses most meals during the breeding season. my other male will eat whatever I give him, whenever I give it to him!!! But you can tell he's that way, he is 6 yrs old and well over 4' and well over 600g.

[Lyion]

quite possible.

I also find one of my males refuses most meals during the breeding season. my other male will eat whatever I give him, whenever I give it to him!!! But you can tell he's that way, he is 6 yrs old and well over 4' and well over 600g.

Wow! A big boy! Do you have any pics?

[diamondlil]

Calm down Diamond. I think he understands.
I'm totally calm. I've fed live when I've had to, despite screaming opposition on UK reptile forums and the general mistaken belief that it's totally illegal here. But it was to rehab non-feeders, which is why I'm asking why the OP wants to do it. I found it a pain in the backside, as you can't actually buy live feeder mice here, you have to grow your own

[Farmgirl]

I have to get some more. My hard drive recently died and I had not backed up any of my pics to a removable device. So I have "redo" all my pics of all my beauties!! *sigh*

I will get you some pics of Pirwa (my big boy) ASAP!!

[PAIN]

My thoughts on this thread

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g187/JCO_CAVGUY/Stopthat-1.jpg

[Lyion]

I'm totally calm. I've fed live when I've had to, despite screaming opposition on UK reptile forums and the general mistaken belief that it's totally illegal here. But it was to rehab non-feeders, which is why I'm asking why the OP wants to do it. I found it a pain in the backside, as you can't actually buy live feeder mice here, you have to grow your own

For some reason I thought you were from Texas lol. People tend to only say rubbish hear when they are really peeved, so I thought you were very angry but when I reread it you seemed pretty calm.

[crotalis40741]

800 grams of granite het pied beauty...aka big SAM and my snake Eric 790 grams of hyper

[Lyion]

I have to get some more. My hard drive recently died and I had not backed up any of my pics to a removable device. So I have "redo" all my pics of all my beauties!! *sigh*

I will get you some pics of Pirwa (my big boy) ASAP!!

Awww. Looking forward to it ;)

[Lyion]

800 grams of granite het pied beauty...aka big SAM and my snake Eric 790 grams of hyper

Wow! They are huge!

[Lyion]

I think we got the point across in this thread so, I'm off :p

[diamondlil]

For some reason I thought you were from Texas lol. People tend to only say rubbish hear when they are really peeved, so I thought you were very angry but when I reread it you seemed pretty calm.
No worries! I was being objective about the snakes technique. Compared to the full-on strike feeders I've got here, it was clumsy and not very efficient. My least efficient feeder is my snow, Diamond Lil, who actually had more live feedings than the rest of my snakes put together, because she was determined to starve herself to death in her early years. In comparison to her I've got snakes who have never been live fed that literally slam the zombie mice out of my hands

[Farmgirl]

800 grams of granite het pied beauty...aka big SAM and my snake Eric 790 grams of hyper


What ages are those beauts?? I was thinking Pirwa was huge for a corn, but yours...... How long are they??

Now THOSE ones could eat rabbit fuzzies!!

[crotalis40741]

What ages are those beauts?? I was thinking Pirwa was huge for a corn, but yours...... How long are they??

Now THOSE ones could eat rabbit fuzzies!!


They are a little under five feet or so. Not really put an actual tape on them.

[beautifullywild77]

Geno is a female and she weights 768grams. But no hips... she is a nut

[Farmgirl]

there's a site where if you take a pic of your snake on a tile floor (for big snakes) or graph paper (for babies) and give the dimensions of the tile or graph, it will calculate the exact length of your snake. I have it marked on one of my other forums. I will try to get it linked here for you guys ASAP

[susang]

Getting in kind of late on this thread, I watched the video. Is it possible OP believes feeding live is the way to go (as in this what pet store told him was optimal). The comment 'too small for live', makes me wonder. To this comment I would say the bigger the snake the bigger the mouse/rat, the more damage. If this snake were an adult and struck as it did in video I think prey would surely win. Also a cosideration as an adult the snake will go into thoughts of the other sex especially this time of year and food is on back burner. I have had a male snake look at mouse (dead) nudge, bite, coil, drop nudge, again drop go to other side of feeding tub. So what does OP think live prey would have done to this snake.

[Farmgirl]

there's a site where if you take a pic of your snake on a tile floor (for big snakes) or graph paper (for babies) and give the dimensions of the tile or graph, it will calculate the exact length of your snake. I have it marked on one of my other forums. I will try to get it linked here for you guys ASAP

here's the link

http://serpwidgets.com/main/measure

[Nanci]

Is it possible OP believes feeding live is the way to go (as in this what pet store told him was optimal). The comment 'too small for live', makes me wonder.

Then why not answer my and Janine's question about why he wants to feed live?

"Because the guy at the pet store told me to. Is there an alternative? Is there some reason I should reconsider my decision? Why should I not believe every word a pet store employee says?"

[NickP961]

Wow. An 800 gram corn! I want that!

[susang]

Then why not answer my and Janine's question about why he wants to feed live?

"Because the guy at the pet store told me to. Is there an alternative? Is there some reason I should reconsider my decision? Why should I not believe every word a pet store employee says?"

Oh! Nanci don't you know the pet stores know so much more then the cs forum people, duh. :cheers:

[PAIN]

Then why not answer my and Janine's question about why he wants to feed live?

"Because the guy at the pet store told me to. Is there an alternative? Is there some reason I should reconsider my decision? Why should I not believe every word a pet store employee says?"

I believe EVERYTHING the pet store guy or girl tells me right after they show me their "PROFESSIONAL REPITLE CREDENTIALS" signed by Steve Irwin or Shawn Heflick from Python Hunters.

So you can guess how many I have been shown :laugh::laugh:

Many times I have been to the pet store and they ask me questions after I ask to hold the corns and this is what I say " Even thou I own them, I am still on a forum that helps me know them better, I'm no expert, and I never do anything out of whim or without asking a professional first"

[guagerage]

Maybe its my choice?

[susang]

Maybe its my choice?

You asked for advice, but you were also asked why this is your choice. Your choice OK but why? Do you feel it is 'natural', do you enjoy the kill??? It is only fair if you ask advice on doing this you explain why you want to do it.
Can I ask how long you have had this snake?

[starsevol]

You asked for advice, but you were also asked why this is your choice. Your choice OK but why? Do you feel it is 'natural', do you enjoy the kill??? It is only fair if you ask advice on doing this you explain why you want to do it.
Can I ask how long you have had this snake?

Su, I think this one is a lost cause. He wants to because he wants to. He does not care about the snake. We have already established that his snake could be injured or killed by live food. We have established that his snake could get worms from live food. He does not care.

Perhaps he gets a tingle in the nether regions from the kill, perhaps he gets a feeling of power seeing a small animal die, I don't know what he gets from it. But it is clear that whatever he gets out of it is worth more to him than his snake....

[susang]

I agree Beth, but the OP has two snakes if you read other posts and it appears in one pic this snake has eaten prekilled, however fed on substrate.

[Lyion]

Oh. 100th reply. This is certainly a thread that wants to live :P

[starsevol]

I agree Beth, but the OP has two snakes if you read other posts and it appears in one pic this snake has eaten prekilled, however fed on substrate.

Well, he does not care if his snake contracts parasites or loses an eye, so why should he care if it ingests bedding?
Being a good pet owner is hardly a priority for this one....

[PAIN]

Oh. 100th reply. This is certainly a thread that wants to live :P

Yes as much as that pinky wanted to as well









:dgrin:

[Lyion]

I agree Beth, but the OP has two snakes if you read other posts and it appears in one pic this snake has eaten prekilled, however fed on substrate.

Hmm. Could I see the picture?

[beautifullywild77]

perhaps read his introduction where the picture might be

[beautifullywild77]

Maybe its my choice?

Or perhaps the psychosexual feeling that legion was talking about. I see no point in feeding live to a snake that will eat prekilled or f/t except of the owners own sick perversion.

[starsevol]

Or perhaps the psychosexual feeling that legion was talking about. I see no point in feeding live to a snake that will eat prekilled or f/t except of the owners own sick perversion.

That was kind of what I meant by the tingley nethers.....

[guagerage]

It's kind of sad that a guy who just gets a snake, who is trying different options, and is still learning to care for his snake, gets ridiculed for things he is trying to correct. I want to be a good pet owner. First things first, no one told me not to feed him in his cage, and it only happened once. After looking at many websites, I corrected my error, and now have a feeding tank. Second, I'm in the US military, and I do not get a thrill out of killing a mouse. If I wanted to kill things, I would kill bigger things then a mouse. Lyion had good feedback and I changed my mind to feeding him frozen mice. This is a new thing for me, so Nanci and everyone else maybe positive feedback helps more then chastising someone would be more help. I thought a forum was a discussion and a learning tool for certain information, but someone puts up the "wrong" thing, and everyone seems to think that this person is evil because he is uneducated in the care for cornsnakes. I want to learn. I want to be a great owner. I think I could learn from certain people on this forum, but as for the rest of you, keep your comments about my nether regions and sexuality out of a bad decision.

[Lennycorn]

Or perhaps the psychosexual feeling

Hey, hey hey!!!!

Leave me out of this, I've been good!!







:D

[starsevol]

Yes it is.

Pros for F/T:
Cheaper, especially if you have multiple snakes.
Always able to have correct prey size on hand.
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Significantly less risk as a source for parasites.

Cons:
Other people in household may not like having numerous rodents in the freezer.

Pros for feeding P/K:
No potential for injury to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
No potential for injury to snake if it 'misses' or coils incorrectly.
Can be frozen if snake is uninterested, for later use.

Cons:
Can get expensive if you have multiple snakes and don't breed your own.
Stinky mouse smell if you do breed your own.
May not have correct prey size.

Pros for feeding live:
None.

Cons:
Potential for injury or death to snake if left in bin unsupervised.
Potential for injury or death to snake if it misses or coils incorrectly.
Potential for transmissible parasites, resulting in vet bills.
Housing for mouse in case snake is 'uninterested' unless breeding your own.
May not have correct prey size.
Expensive, especially for multiple snakes, unless breeding your own.


Feeding live should be a last resort, "my snake absolutely won't eat anything else" situation.

And for the emotional part, while Legion there is incapable of empathy for mice, do please keep in mind that this is a living feeling creature you are feeding to your snake. It can feel terror and pain. If it is going to die anyway, shouldn't that death be painless and free from fear?

After Megan posted THIS ^^^^^^^^
you continued on as though you did not care one little bit.

Stated that you wanted to feed live because it was your choice.

How exactly is that supposed to be interpreted?

[beautifullywild77]

Wow.... most military people I know do not enjoy killing anything, mouse or bigger. It is usually the young ones just joining the service who are gung ho about killing and blowing up stuff. After all if you dont like killing why feed live in the first place? I find you contradict yourself in that last statement. F/t is so readily available even from big chained pet stores.

Good references

Kathy and Bill Love's book Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owner's Guide..
Don Soderberg's book Corn Snakes in Captivity

I made my son read Don's book for a whole month before I allowed him to get a corn snake. I, myself, have been researching owning different snakes for years. I dont know everything. I am still a novice. But I do know feeding live is disgusting when you can feed them already killed mice (who are killed humanly). This I knew long before I ever owned my first snake.

[Lyion]

Hey, hey hey!!!!

Leave me out of this, I've been good!!







:D

I got a little laugh here lol

[beautifullywild77]

I might not be in the military but I to can go out and kill bigger things and do. I am a avid hunter but the first thing you learn when you begin hunting is never allow the animal you hunt to suffer. One shot, one kill rule. And if you do just injure, you bet your butt you are going to track down that animal and make sure you put it down and end its suffering. So again I do not see your logic

[Lyion]

I might not be in the military but I to can go out and kill bigger things and do. I am a avid hunter but the first thing you learn when you begin hunting is never allow the animal you hunt to suffer. One shot, one kill rule. And if you do just injure, you bet your butt you are going to track down that animal and make sure you put it down and end its suffering. So again I do not see your logic

You give hunters a good name, ^^.

[NickP961]

Honestly, I see no need to feed live, when in my opinion, it is just as fascinating to watch them eat frozen thawed. But, if the snake won't eat frozen, than it's fine...til you get them to switch.
Glad you changed your mind to switch to frozen thawed, good decision.

[Nanci]

I told you the reasons it is dangerous, or potentially so, for your snake. I just want to know why you want to do it. Just curious, that's all.

[guagerage]

Beautifullywild77, I see your husband is in the air force, and your stationed at kafb, I grew up in Albuquerque. I've been hunting near Angel Fire, Taos, and Eagle Nest. Everyone I grew up with went hunting for deer and elk, most air force guys I know don't hunt. In Idaho, where I am currently at, everyone up here hunts. As for being the "young one" who enjoys blowing stuff up, I am not. I am 31 and I've been in going on 8 years. I do believe in one shot, one kill rule, and as I expressed in my previous post, I have learned that maybe my decision to feed live instead of frozen, is not in the best interest of my animal. But I do have multiple choices, so which ever I choose is mine to make.

[starsevol]

.....and people will judge you based on those choices......guaranteed....

[guagerage]

I'm done with this! I'm selling it!

[starsevol]

I'm done with this! I'm selling it!

Based on your previous posts, that might be the best choice you've ever made....
But keeping him on the thawed food he knows and loves would be another really good choice.....

[guagerage]

Really thanks! But I'll feed him whatever I want!

[starsevol]

Really thanks! But I'll feed him whatever I want!

Obviously you will.
What I don't understand is why you thought live feeding was correcting something.
If he is eating thawed and thriving, what is there to correct?

You say you want to be a good pet owner, but your actions say otherwise.

If feeding live does not benefit the animal, then it must benefit YOU in some way. And there we go straight back to those nethers.....

Edited to add, the title of this thread is like some major announcement. Baby's first step or something. Like it is something to be proud of. Whoopsie, I guess that backfired didn't it?

[Cassie16]

I think at this point, the OP is being being defensive, and justifiably so; he's been called a sicko and a sexual deviant for feeding a snake a live mouse. Good God. Who has the time to gain any insight when they're defending themselves against such bold accusations?

There's a right and wrong way to present information. Some have presented their arguments beautifully, and others horrifically. At this point, the poster, who in my opinion, has come off as a perfectly nice and intelligent young man, and thus perfectly competent at making his own decisions, has the choice of conforming to new feeding practices or not. I hope no one would fault him for not adapting to their personal view.

[Nanci]

I agree, I think it's time to quit with the sicko comments.

[guagerage]

what do i have to get banned from here?

[Wyldrose]

Really thanks! But I'll feed him whatever I want!

It's really sad to read posts like this the main reason to join a forum is to learn to give your pet the best care possible. Many experts have given you wonderful advice and its up to you to decided to take their advice or not.

A lot of people have been here and on other forums for a long time and it hurts to see animals misstreated. Do you know how many posts I have read about a hurt animal that requires Vet care asap but the owner denies it, they come up with some sort of bs excuse and the animal dies in pain.

Mice bite, they have hurt and killed snakes. None of my snakes will eat live, this is my choice, I want the best for them.

[starsevol]

Yeah, I'm done.
To the OP, just read Megan's post with all the pros and cons of all 3 methods. It is pretty complete.

[guagerage]

I changed my mind 20 posts ago! its not hurt! its just fine!

[guagerage]

the point is i can feed it whatever i want! i was looking for someone to tell me if he was ready or not! i got my info and i had changed my mind!

[beautifullywild77]

Beautifullywild77, I see your husband is in the air force, and your stationed at kafb, I grew up in Albuquerque. I've been hunting near Angel Fire, Taos, and Eagle Nest. Everyone I grew up with went hunting for deer and elk, most air force guys I know don't hunt. In Idaho, where I am currently at, everyone up here hunts. As for being the "young one" who enjoys blowing stuff up, I am not. I am 31 and I've been in going on 8 years. I do believe in one shot, one kill rule, and as I expressed in my previous post, I have learned that maybe my decision to feed live instead of frozen, is not in the best interest of my animal. But I do have multiple choices, so which ever I choose is mine to make.

Actually, he is finishing his 20 yrs down at Holloman AFB. My husband hunts as well as deep sea fishing. I grew up in Jemez Mountains. We currently elk hunt in the Valle Vidal up near the Colorado Border. I was born and raised in Albuquerque. I was also raised in a military family. Army, Air Force, Coast Guard etc.

It is your choice. Yes, feeding live here is a heated subject even more so when posted with a video. I am glad that you have gotten something out of the previous postings and that live probably isnt the best for a snake that will readily take f/t. There is no nutrientual value between the two. I have a cousin who is a professor of meat science and have asked her. It is no different then us eating our steaks frozen then thawed.

You must also realize many on here have dealt with the feeding live vs f/t trolls a lot, most trolls are young and uneducated and will continue to argue. Yes, even some of my posts were not nice but were honest. But you took it in stride.

I do not think that you should sell your snake. You seem like you are willing to educate yourself and that right there says something about you. Word of advice the other heated subject here is co-habbing corn snakes ;) I do wish you the best with your snake.

[starsevol]

I changed my mind 20 posts ago! its not hurt! its just fine!

YAY!!!!!!
Way to keep a secret!
And I am sorry I am...the way I am.
I am nasty when it comes to stuff like this, I admit it. I am one of those nuts that love ALL animals ....
But really really glad you changed your mind.
Your boy will live to a good age worm free, scar free and with both his eyes and mice everywhere are rejoicing as we speak!!!

I am sorry, truly.
And thank you, thank you so much!!!
I hope you have a wonderful evening.....

[guagerage]

Wow lets all be nice now! At this point I would rather let it go in my backyard!

[starsevol]

Actually, he is finishing his 20 yrs down at Holloman AFB. My husband hunts as well as deep sea fishing. I grew up in Jemez Mountains. We currently elk hunt in the Valle Vidal up near the Colorado Border. I was born and raised in Albuquerque. I was also raised in a military family. Army, Air Force, Coast Guard etc.

It is your choice. Yes, feeding live here is a heated subject even more so when posted with a video. I am glad that you have gotten something out of the previous postings and that live probably isnt the best for a snake that will readily take f/t. There is no nutrientual value between the two. I have a cousin who is a professor of meat science and have asked her. It is no different then us eating our steaks frozen then thawed.

You must also realize many on here have dealt with the feeding live vs f/t trolls a lot, most trolls are young and uneducated and will continue to argue. Yes, even some of my posts were not nice but were honest. But you took it in stride.

I do not think that you should sell your snake. You seem like you are willing to educate yourself and that right there says something about you. Word of advice the other heated subject here is co-habbing corn snakes ;) I do wish you the best with your snake.

Yes, what she said!!
We all want you to have great success with your animal....

[starsevol]

Wow lets all be nice now! At this point I would rather let it go in my backyard!

No you wouldn't!! I don't think....

[guagerage]

Remember I'm an evil person for feeding 1 live mouse! I can think of alot of ways to get rid of this snake!

[Jdog3131]

what do i have to get banned from here?

I thought you guys knew better than this.

[starsevol]

Remember I'm an evil person for feeding 1 live mouse! I can think of alot of ways to get rid of this snake!

BUT, you did say you did it because you were trying to correct something (but darned if I know what), and you probably can think of alot of ways,,,,but somehow I don't think it will come to fruition.

My name is Beth, btw, and I am sorry about before.

[guagerage]

I thought you guys knew better than this.

So everyone on here is a troll

[guagerage]

Now I'm a troll! No I'm pissed! Big difference!

[beautifullywild77]

No, and I wouldn't call you a troll either! I am not trying to suck up or be nice. I am just being honest.

We blew it and some of aren't above admitting we took it too far or tried to get our opinion across in the wrong way. For that I do apologize for

Personally, I do hope you stay. There really are a lot of people on here that are nice and have a wealth of experience in keeping not only corn snakes but many other species as well.

[guagerage]

So abusive language and threats towards others earns me a ban. Since we are taking about opinions, and this goes for everyone, you don't shove your opinion down peoples throats.probably not the best thing to do. I'm going to take an hour and decide Barry's future. I think I'm going to start a new post similar to kony 2012. Lets save Barry. I want all of your "opinions" on how to save Barry, and don't hold back, his fate is in your hands.

[Jdog3131]

Before you do that, I know it may mean nothing or something but I'm sorry if I took it to far. I was trying to add something funny to a situation that I was not aware of the extent. I hope that you do stay. I also hope that you take to heart what most of these people will do to save an animal they don't know, barley heard of and who has a owner who may be irritating.(no offeness meant.).

Again I am truley sorry I posted that, I was ignorant of the situation and had no idea it may come to you giving up your snake.

[Farmgirl]

I'm not sure where this is going?? you say that you realized feeding killed prey is better, then talk of selling him or letting him go into the wild??? Now you want US to decide your snakes fate??

I get that your angry, but it almost sounds like this is now being taken out on the snake instead of the people who angered you!!

If you truly don't want him because of something someone said, send him to me!! He'll have great home and no matter how badly anyone here or on other forums "pisses me off" he would still have a home!!

[beautifullywild77]

I am done. I tried and now you use the "fate of your snake" to progress this further. I understand you are mad and have every right to be but using the life or death of your snake at your own hand is beyond bizarre to me. Really tho, I hope that you dont kill your snake out of anger caused by a bunch of people you dont know.

You can always log out of the forum and never log back in.

[PAIN]

So abusive language and threats towards others earns me a ban. Since we are taking about opinions, and this goes for everyone, you don't shove your opinion down peoples throats.probably not the best thing to do. I'm going to take an hour and decide Barry's future. I think I'm going to start a new post similar to kony 2012. Lets save Barry. I want all of your "opinions" on how to save Barry, and don't hold back, his fate is in your hands.

my last 2 cents, regarding the Kony 2012 comment
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g187/JCO_CAVGUY/outofreach.jpg

[guagerage]

I hope you people understand that it has to come to this to get you to be understanding of other people. Who knows how many users have not come back cause of your judgements!

[beautifullywild77]

We understand that completely. Some of us have apologized to you for our judgement. Most people have a tad thicker skin and have stuck around and have become contributing members of this community. We are all only human, we make mistakes. In the heat of emotions things are said. But it takes the bigger person to apologize and to accept apologies.

[Farmgirl]

^^ya 31 going on 12!! At least how he's acted in the last few posts anyways!!

157718

[PAIN]

I hope you people understand that it has to come to this to get you to be understanding of other people. Who knows how many users have not come back cause of your judgements!

OK umm enough with the "SNAKE FATE".

Many people use the excuse "drastic things have to happen or it has to come to this in order for people to understand"

That is what most dictators say to MAKE people understand they are going to do something drastic to show that they are right? Is that really the way to go about things?

NA thats not how it works.

1 - You made the post with the live feeding
2 - Members expressed their thoughts and yes some more than others
3 - You took alot out of context or found it offensive

BUT GUESS WHAT??? Its a forum at the end of the day, either you take the advise or you don't.

But NEVER use an animals fate as an escape goat. SPECIALLY when you know for a FACT you won't harm it or let it go as there was a young voice in that video that most likely is attached that that pet snake now.

CALM, THINK and then THINK again.

[Cassie16]

Well then. Legion just showed the bad side of live feeders. The issue is, many people will think you are like him. The fact that he gets a sexual thrill from this is disgusting. There are responsible live feeders, and you guage are trying your best for your snake to get a good life out of this. But Legion gives us snake fans a bad name, and people got upset and angry at you because they thought you got that thrill from it.

I don't think he took anything out of context! There were downright rude and nasty comments made, and half the time he wasnt saying a word. Forthermore, anyone only apologized for being nasty after he divulged that he would no longer feed live! That makes me think some people think it's OK to insult others who don't share their opinion.

That being said..

One of the most admirable qualities in man is to accept apologies gracefully; afterall, apologies come from places of kindness, no matter the context in which they're said!

Also, to dangle your pets fate over those who insulted you serms melodramatic to me, and will only bolster their original negative opinion of you.

[Cassie16]

And i didnt mean to quote that! My phone does weird things when I post.

[guagerage]

I was a bad guy from the start

[Farmgirl]

No, you weren't. You were simply a guy asking a question and some people don't have the social skills to properly discuss contentious issues. However, even as a play to be heard, threatening the life or well-being of your snake put you on the same level as those you are railing against. Be better than that!!

You don't have to take anyone's advice on how to feed your snake, you know that!! But reacting in the way you did kinda put even my nose out of joint, and I am HARD to offend!!

Just remember that on ANY FORUM there are going to be those who attack, and those that explain. YOU just need to figure out which ones to talk to and which ones to ignore.

Personally, those who cannot treat my questions and concerns with respect are completely ignored as if they are not even a part of the forum and I learn from those with social skills. It has worked very well for me and I am on 3 different forums!

give it a shot!!

157719

[Christen]

To the OP I watched the video and read this thread. I do feel that you snake is not a good candidate to eat live especially since he takes f/t. I had a king that I fed live to because that is all that she would eat and even with her doing it right 99% of the time she got bit once while I was watching. So I agree with the others here that f/t is best.

I do apologize that you felt attacked and are angered right now. I really hope that you don't take it out on the snake. It is not his fault. Everyone has learned from this, I think.


I thought you guys knew better than this.

TBH I am sick of seeing these. These stupid pictures keep getting posted in threads that I don't think the original purpose was to troll and they just get everyone even more riled up. Please I am begging you don't place these in a thread that there is a doubt that the OB isn't a troll.

[guagerage]

i stand by what i said!

[beautifullywild77]

OK :) Nice looking snake!

[Lyion]

Look, we apologized. Several times. You are the one going on. I thought you cared about him for real but if you get so angry that you threaten to kill him over people online then you shouldn't have him. Please do sell him.

[Lyion]

I know you are better than this. I could tell by the way you talked on the video that you loved him. But now you are getting freaked out. Please calm down. After apologizing and offering advice you are still angered. We have no more to offer. I completly have forgiven you for some of the things you said to close friends, and I offered a sincere apology to from all of those who are too stubburn to do so and myself. Don't get angry at your snake over this. Please, do not insult us, for people had calmed down but if you insult us we will defend ourselves. Some of the people in this forum who are argueing will not be the grown up and stop the insults so please do so yourself.

[Lyion]

And yes. Barry is adorable. I know you really care for him. You are being a responsible owner here, I noted the changes in that picture. You have learned all you could so now there is no reason for the argument to go on.

[Lyion]

Lastly I apologize for everyone's initial behavior.

[AliCat37]

It's kind of sad that a guy who just gets a snake, who is trying different options, and is still learning to care for his snake, gets ridiculed for things he is trying to correct. I want to be a good pet owner. First things first, no one told me not to feed him in his cage, and it only happened once. After looking at many websites, I corrected my error, and now have a feeding tank. Second, I'm in the US military, and I do not get a thrill out of killing a mouse. If I wanted to kill things, I would kill bigger things then a mouse. Lyion had good feedback and I changed my mind to feeding him frozen mice. This is a new thing for me, so Nanci and everyone else maybe positive feedback helps more then chastising someone would be more help. I thought a forum was a discussion and a learning tool for certain information, but someone puts up the "wrong" thing, and everyone seems to think that this person is evil because he is uneducated in the care for cornsnakes. I want to learn. I want to be a great owner. I think I could learn from certain people on this forum, but as for the rest of you, keep your comments about my nether regions and sexuality out of a bad decision.

I'm not reading through the whole thread, but I'm making this short:
Live is a bad idea, it should only be used as a last resort for snakes that absolutely refuse f/t.
I feed in the cage without any issues- however, I keep all babies up to a year on paper towels. Once they hit a year they are on aspen. I just dry my mice off before I feed so that substrate doesn't stick to them.
I think people jumped on you very quickly because this thread sounds so trollish.

[Lyion]

Yep! It took 17 pages to sum up what Ali said lol. We have had trolls on here talk about this issue, and recently. So many people are fired up over that. It was our fault for assuming things.

[Lyion]

No reason to fight if we're all on the same side here! What do you say- truce?

[guagerage]

Lyion, all I was trying to prove with my previous posts with the welfare of barry, is that I can be just as mean and cruel and judgemental as people on this forum. They went to drastic measures and made assumptions so I found when I argue with kids, sometimes you have to act like a kid. Again, I just wanted advice and tips. I wasn't bragging or showing off that I have an animal that can eat a mouse. Thank you for everyones apologies, its sad that it has to come after 17 pages, like I said in the middle, I had changed his eating habits.

[MysticExotics]

Lyion, all I was trying to prove with my previous posts with the welfare of barry, is that I can be just as mean and cruel and judgemental as people on this forum. They went to drastic measures and made assumptions so I found when I argue with kids, sometimes you have to act like a kid. Again, I just wanted advice and tips. I wasn't bragging or showing off that I have an animal that can eat a mouse. Thank you for everyones apologies, its sad that it has to come after 17 pages, like I said in the middle, I had changed his eating habits.

Just keep in mind, that when you make threats/insinuations (idle or not) to harm an animal on a public forum, that your IP adress can be tracked & you could end up with Animal Control at your door, to check the welfare of that animal.

[beautifullywild77]

wow I did not know that... but it would be worse for military personal... hubby said an LOR or article 15.

[MysticExotics]

Rich can track the IP address, & if people here felt the OP was serious about harming an animal, it would be fairly easy to contact the proper authorities for that areea, with concerns that an animal was in danger.

[beautifullywild77]

That is good to know in the long run of things! We have friends in the INTELL but I guess I never thought of it that way!

[Outcast]

Second, I'm in the US military, and I do not get a thrill out of killing a mouse.

What branch are you in?

I was Air Force EOD... Which accounts for the snarkiness in my post. I tend to still be straight forward with things... It gets me in trouble at work all the time. So I apologize if my response was in any way offensive. I am still in the mindset of get the point across sharply or people die, I doubt I will ever get out of that mindset.

I read that you have changed the way of feeding. Congratulations, I am happy for you and the snake. Like I showed in my post, larger mice can do serious harm. Gypsy is lucky to be alive after her neck incident.

I continued to read and noticed that you turned very vindictive. Please don't do that, it really doesn't help your case. People apologized. I know you have the training to calm yourself down, do so, and stop acting like a child. I don't care how mean the people on this forum were to you. It is not becoming of a member of the US Military.

[MysticExotics]

That is good to know in the long run of things! We have friends in the INTELL but I guess I never thought of it that way!

And to clarify, I'm not saying that as a threat, but more of a reminder that people need to be careful about what they post on a public forum. Making threats, whether to "prove a point" or with serious intent, can get someone in trouble.

[7legion77]

Goodness gracious, I thought this thread had ended and I see this nonsense is still going on.

The reason this debate keeps plaguing this forums is because more than anyone, I have to point out Bethany for leading the charge with the over-the-top judgements and personal attacks. And she does this relentlessly yet always says the same thing. With all due respect, we know what you think Bethany, so STOP harassing people already! Why are you and your cohorts trying to put such stranglehold on this forum? I'm only looking for a place to share my passion for corn snakes with but the biggest site www.cornsnakes.com is being ruined whenever this vital topic comes up.

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

Bethany, again I respect you and think you're probably quite a compassionate person, but you have failed to convince anyone because you're so disparaging. You are omnipresent in these threads and jump to personal attacks at EVERY live feeder, and as a result we just get peeved and are LESS likely to switch to F/T. Maybe try a different strategy? Respect internet anonymity.

[Shiari]

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.


Translation:

We need diversity of opinions! Only I only want opinions that agree with me! Because of reasons that are entirely subjective and have nothing to do with what's best for the animal! So stop having your opinion impinge on my opinion!

[7legion77]

Translation:

We need diversity of opinions! Only I only want opinions that agree with me! Because of reasons that are entirely subjective and have nothing to do with what's best for the animal! So stop having your opinion impinge on my opinion!

Please don't sound so immature. We want to discuss what we do free of abuse. Why are you getting so worked up over what we do with OUR snakes? That's our business, so either speak to us respectfully or leave us alone. Sorry, but we're not gonna change.

[beautifullywild77]

Actually, the OP changed his mind about feeding live.

[7legion77]

Actually, the OP changed his mind about feeding live.

Okay, so does that make you happy now?
That's what I said too when I caved in to the pressure, before I realized I don't enjoy prekilling. For some reason it is less satisfying to me.

[Shiari]

Please don't sound so immature. We want to discuss what we do free of abuse. Why are you getting so worked up over what we do with OUR snakes? That's our business, so either speak to us respectfully or leave us alone. Sorry, but we're not gonna change.

Pot, meet Kettle?

and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

it is more propaganda than sound, rational advice.

Pros: Beautiful to watch! Psychosexual thrill!

I am sometimes purposely trolling



*nomnomimmaturitynom*

[7legion77]

Pot, meet Kettle?











*nomnomimmaturitynom*

Okay Shiari, you're going on ignore. At least amuse me, your replies are more boring and petty than they are thought-provoking in any way. Nice knowin ya!

[Shiari]

Okay Shiari, you're going on ignore. At least amuse me, your replies are more boring and petty than they are thought-provoking in any way. Nice knowin ya!

Petty to point out contradictory statements. That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[possum_minister]

Okay, so does that make you happy now?
That's what I said too when I caved in to the pressure, before I realized I don't enjoy prekilling. For some reason it is less satisfying to me.

Look dude, I dont know you but this post caught my attention. the reason for keeping corn snakes is not your satisfaction of seeing a snake kill a rodent and consuming it. your satisfaction is not the point. the snake has to eat, yes, but to do it in a way just to satisfy some morbid curiosity is not how to keep a pet. if you willingly endanger the safety and health of your snake just to satisfy some deep seated fascination with death then you are an unfit snake keeper. its like throwing a chihuahua in the ring with a pit bull, you know the what the outcome will be but that animals pain and fear never factor into your equation. if that is how you value the life of an animal, any animal, no matter the species, then you have no business keeping them as pets.

[7legion77]

if that is how you value the life of an animal, any animal, no matter the species, then you have no business keeping them as pets.

Instead of swearing, like I'm tempted to do right now, I'll use an emoticon to express myself:
uzi:

But really, do you realize how judgmental and insulting that is? Aaaahhh the hate, it burrrrrns!

I am ready to be banned. :toiletgra

[7legion77]

On a less emotional note, the risk is a lot more minimal than you think.
If you want to keep going with horrible analogies, (I thought I told you guys to refrain from that horrible dog analogy) its like saying "if you're taking your kid in your car on the freeway you are endangering your kid because you could get in an accident no matter how well you drive".

Risk is a part of life. If one day my snake suffers a bad injury, then I guess I was wrong all along. But at this point I don't want to spend any time on this forum with these haters at all, yet I can't help but defend my opinion, so I'd like to be banned so I stop wasting my time here.
Fair 'nuff?

[Shiari]

Nope, it's more like "If you're taking your kid in your car and not seat-belting him in you are endangering your kid because you could get in an accident no matter how well you drive."

[Iguanagirl8662]

Goodness gracious, I thought this thread had ended and I see this nonsense is still going on.

The reason this debate keeps plaguing this forums is because more than anyone, I have to point out Bethany for leading the charge with the over-the-top judgements and personal attacks. And she does this relentlessly yet always says the same thing. With all due respect, we know what you think Bethany, so STOP harassing people already! Why are you and your cohorts trying to put such stranglehold on this forum? I'm only looking for a place to share my passion for corn snakes with but the biggest site www.cornsnakes.com is being ruined whenever this vital topic comes up.

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

Bethany, again I respect you and think you're probably quite a compassionate person, but you have failed to convince anyone because you're so disparaging. You are omnipresent in these threads and jump to personal attacks at EVERY live feeder, and as a result we just get peeved and are LESS likely to switch to F/T. Maybe try a different strategy? Respect internet anonymity.

You are quite wrong in saying that Beth has never convinced anyone to switch from live feeding. When I first joined this forum I agrued with her about feeding live because I thought I knew better, it was more "natural" and nothing had happened to them in the 5 yrs that feed on live. I swore that the way I feed my 2 corns was right for them and that everyone should respect my choice. Well it wasn't till everything she warned me about started happening that I finallly realized she was right and took her advice. I also later apologized to her for my stupidity. I honestly think my corns prefer the F/T over the live they used to get anyway because they don't have to waste energy or time hunting it, then struggling with it till it dies then eating it, with F/T then can just start chowing down right away which is great for them lol.


Please don't sound so immature. We want to discuss what we do free of abuse. Why are you getting so worked up over what we do with OUR snakes? That's our business, so either speak to us respectfully or leave us alone. Sorry, but we're not gonna change.

You may change, never say never. I changed and I swore I wouldn't. The reason people get so worked up about the issue is because they are extremely passionate about these animals and they have seen it so many threads about live feeding or injuries resulting from live feeding, in which the people are normally to stubborn to listen to reason. I was one of those people before I came to my senses so I speak from experience. Feeding live puts your snake at risk which is avoidable. Yes your snake may never have an issue but there is a chance that it could get hurt. So why take that chance with your animal and why put the food item through more pain and suffering when it is more humane to kill it quick and as painless as possible. I would want to avoid any risk to any of my animals at all cost. If I can keep them from getting hurt then that is the best option. I also don't want my snakes food to have to suffer so if they can be killed more humanely then that to me is the way to go.

So the pros of F/T for me-
No risk to my snakes
Cheaper
If my snake doesn't eat I'm not stuck with a live rodent

Cons-
I have to hear my aunt complain about rodents in the freezer when she visits lol

Pros for feeding live-
None... unless you like seeing an animal suffer and your snake possibly being bitten

Cons-
Risk of injury
Risk of parasites and alot of feeder rodents are covered in mites and lice.
Getting stuck with a rodent if the snake doesn't eat
More expensive
Oh and I have had feeder rodents escape in my car and at home

[7legion77]

I was dreading reading yet another reply to this thread, since everything I say is now automatically wrong.

But thanks for that Iguana, that is such a more respectable reply and makes me feel a little better, although I'm still wanting to delete myself from this place.

Its probably obvious that I sadly, often post drunk, so I'm sorry to anyone whom I've offended.

But I'm sticking with live for now. When I put a live mouse in my vastly decorated vivarium, it is so fascinating watching the mouse's behavior and seeing how it reacts to things. He'll climb around on the branches, explore this and that, and wonder what is going on before the inevitable occurs. It's just an interesting thing to watch and study for me. I'm like that scientist who experiments on mice, and is able to tune out empathy. So god help me?

There is something so beautiful about how a snake subdues a mouse. Just the power and the efficiency of it. Call it morbid, call it wrong, but it's impossible to ignore and doesn't match the sterilized, control freak feeling I get when I cave in to Beth's "advice" and prekill. How is slaughtering a mouse with my own hands humane? Sure its an instant death, but so is a guillotine. I'm the kind of person who accepts suffering as an essential part of life and doesn't try to sweep this terrible fact under the carpet.
There are people who argue that the very concept of keeping a pet, is inhumane. Its a subjective concept. Live vs P/K is not black and white, and I will stand by this opinion eternally.

At this point in time, I do believe that with close supervision, correct prey size and a proper feeding schedule, the risk is comparable to driving on a freeway with a seatbelt on but sadly getting hit by a drunken driver (no pun intended).

Still preferable to keeping legions of dead mice in my freezer (no pun intended).

Good night, and farewell. This is my last post here ever.

[possum_minister]

i would encourage you to swear, because you will be outmatched in that arena. i hope you are insulted and offended by my statements. because that was my intention. just like your intention was to stir up controversey on this site. you ignore all the good advice of the good people on this site, you assert your ideas in a way as to make yourself seem childish, and you continue in your terrible snake husbandry completely ignoring the sound information you have recieved here. you are a blight on the snake keeping community. i am not here to coddle you, nor am i here to defend you. you are obviously a child with no respect for the life of any animal. some people here will be polite, im not one of them. i hope they kick you out quicker that we impeached clinton. grow up, or dont come back. done.

[7legion77]

i would encourage you to swear, because you will be outmatched in that arena. i hope you are insulted and offended by my statements. because that was my intention. just like your intention was to stir up controversey on this site. you ignore all the good advice of the good people on this site, you assert your ideas in a way as to make yourself seem childish, and you continue in your terrible snake husbandry completely ignoring the sound information you have recieved here. you are a blight on the snake keeping community. i am not here to coddle you, nor am i here to defend you. you are obviously a child with no respect for the life of any animal. some people here will be polite, im not one of them. i hope they kick you out quicker that we impeached clinton. grow up, or dont come back. done.

Wow that is ugly. So ugly that it makes me break my oath for last post ever. Although hopefully this one will be it.

Just...... wow.

[7legion77]

I have never encountered such hostility drama and emotion in any kind of internet forum ever, ever! What is going on here folks???

[Iguanagirl8662]

I have never encountered such hostility drama and emotion in any kind of internet forum ever, ever! What is going on here folks???

I don't like people who keep posting that they are done and are leaving the forum and never leave, they just keep posting how they are leaving. To me that means you are just looking for drama. If you don't like it here then I say do what you said and leave because the rest of us are not going to change our opinions, just like you said you are not going to change. If you don't like it here why stay? Go find a forum that shares your opinion where you will enjoying being there.

[7legion77]

I don't like people who keep posting that they are done and are leaving the forum and never leave, they just keep posting how they are leaving. To me that means you are just looking for drama. If you don't like it here then I say do what you said and leave because the rest of us are not going to change our opinions, just like you said you are not going to change. If you don't like it here why stay? Go find a forum that shares your opinion where you will enjoying being there.

Not looking for drama, its just that my feelings have been hurt constantly ever since I've come here, which why I've reacted the way I have.
But I shouldn't be so sensitive considering the fact that I remain anonymous.

I don't know why I keep replying, I'm trying to get myself banned or deleted so I stop posting here because its lose/lose for both us.

[Iguanagirl8662]

Not looking for drama, its just that my feelings have been hurt constantly ever since I've come here, which why I've reacted the way I have.
But I shouldn't be so sensitive considering the fact that I remain anonymous.

I don't know why I keep replying, I'm trying to get myself banned or deleted so I stop posting here because its lose/lose for both us.

All you have to do is stop posting it is as simple as that. No one is making you come on here or post so if you don't want too then don't. If you really want your account deleted then message a mod and ask to be deleted.

[7legion77]

I'm sorry for my cruelty to mice and I'm sorry for my alcoholism/trolling/desire to debate.
Perhaps I'm one of the weirdest posters you guys have encountered. Hopefully, as I've requested, my profile will be deleted as will all my worthless posts. And cornsnakes.com will be purged of my existence.

[starsevol]

www.cornsnakes.com[/url] is being ruined whenever this vital topic comes up.

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

Bethany, again I respect you and think you're probably quite a compassionate person, but you have failed to convince anyone because you're so disparaging. You are omnipresent in these threads and jump to personal attacks at EVERY live feeder, and as a result we just get peeved and are LESS likely to switch to F/T. Maybe try a different strategy? Respect internet anonymity.

Mr Itchypants, the last post I made was an apology 4 pages ago. GET OVER IT!!! Glad you want to leave. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you!!

Katie, so glad you are back! I have really missed you!!!

PM, I need to rep that post.

Edited to say, I hope the drunken troll is not a liar as well as as cruel horrible pet owner. I hope he really is gone for good, but I suspect the next time he is drunk he will be back a'trollin'. And something tells me he get drunk often....

[Carinata]

Look, I tried to stay out of this thread, but I read the entire thing and wanted to point a few things out. I personally feed F/T to all my snakes except 1. That snake that gets live has held out for live and that's what she gets. I highly recommend that you feed F/T if your snake will take it. It will save you a ton of money and be much more convenient. Live rodents do pose a risk to the animals you feed them to. It is a small risk, if you do it correctly, but the risk is still there.

I have no issue feeding live, to an animal that flat out refuses F/T. I personally think the parasites debate can be debunked by buying your live rodents from a very good supplier. Certain species just are consistent feeders on F/T, and live is just the route you may have to take. One must be extraordinarily diligent when feeding live, to assure nothing goes south.

I think we really need to not jump on people that feed live as much as we do. We're isolating members of a community that is getting raped with legislation. We need to unite people in our community instead of isolating them. When a new member comes here and asks about feeding live, explain it to them without the insults, name calling, etc. If someone told me I got a psycho sexual thrill from feeding live, I would think "That person's an idiot, and I'm not listening to anything they say!". But we all know Beth is very intelligent person, that brings a lot to our community! So let's make these new people to the forum realize it.

Old habits are hard to break. It may take 10 members, 100 posts to explain the dangers of feeding live, but if we remain civil, we can educate, INSTEAD of isolate. There is risk in everything we do, and there is risk in using a thermostat for your rack. If it fails, you fry your animals. Live feeding is potentially dangerous, but if we expect to convince people to feed F/T, we need to approach it nicely.

Some of these people probably heard that feeding live is OK, from someone they respect. There are plenty of pet stores that know what they're doing. Ben Siegel, Snakes at Sunset, Exotic Pets LV, etc. All are respected members of our community. I mean, a bunch of names on the internet isn't as convincing as talking to someone face to face. So can we please remember that when we're dealing with people who we're trying to convince.

[ShenziSixaxis]

This whole thread makes my brain itch.

I don't think I really have anything productive to add about the whole live/FT thing that hasn't been said already.

Carinata pretty much said what I had thought of while skimming the thread. Except for the brain itching.

[Wyldrose]

Maybe next time a live vs f/t thread comes up maybe we should just link the 20-30 other posts about live vs f/t...

[AliCat37]

I'm confused Legion.
You don't like prekilling, so buy frozen.
You don't like mice in the freezer? Do you eat meat???? Because it's really no different at all than having random body parts of a pig, or cow, or chicken in there. You can always get a separate freezer.. they only cost around $60.

[starsevol]

Its probably obvious that I sadly, often post drunk, so I'm sorry to anyone whom I've offended.

But I'm sticking with live for now. When I put a live mouse in my vastly decorated vivarium, it is so fascinating watching the mouse's behavior and seeing how it reacts to things. He'll climb around on the branches, explore this and that, and wonder what is going on before the inevitable occurs. It's just an interesting thing to watch and study for me. I'm like that scientist who experiments on mice, and is able to tune out empathy. So god help me?

There is something so beautiful about how a snake subdues a mouse. Just the power and the efficiency of it. Call it morbid, call it wrong, but it's impossible to ignore and doesn't match the sterilized, control freak feeling I get when I cave in to Beth's "advice" and prekill. How is slaughtering a mouse with my own hands humane? Sure its an instant death, but so is a guillotine. I'm the kind of person who accepts suffering as an essential part of life and doesn't try to sweep this terrible fact under the carpet.
There are people who argue that the very concept of keeping a pet, is inhumane. Its a subjective concept. Live vs P/K is not black and white, and I will stand by this opinion eternally.

Good night, and farewell. This is my last post here ever.

Ali, THIS is why he does it. The thrill means more than his "pet".

[Carinata]

I can understand enjoying the kill. You have a fascination with these animals. We want to understand how they hunt, breed, live etc. When feeding a snake a dead mouse, in a plastic box, we're not seeing their instincts at work. I mean I can afford to buy meat at the grocery store, but I hunt. It's more expensive for a day of hunting than it is for meat at the store. Hell my bullets are $2 a piece! I do it because I enjoy outsmarting the animal, I enjoy watching them in their natural environment. Of course I do believe in the one shot, one kill principal.

So I understand why Legion likes watching his snake hunt. It's not like he gets off watching it. I'm not advocating feeding live to an animal that's easily taking F/T. I just understand the desire to watch an animal that you greatly admire, hunt.

[starsevol]

I can understand enjoying the kill. You have a fascination with these animals. We want to understand how they hunt, breed, live etc. When feeding a snake a dead mouse, in a plastic box, we're not seeing their instincts at work. I mean I can afford to buy meat at the grocery store, but I hunt. It's more expensive for a day of hunting than it is for meat at the store. Hell my bullets are $2 a piece! I do it because I enjoy outsmarting the animal, I enjoy watching them in their natural environment. Of course I do believe in the one shot, one kill principal.

So I understand why Legion likes watching his snake hunt. It's not like he gets off watching it. I'm not advocating feeding live to an animal that's easily taking F/T. I just understand the desire to watch an animal that you greatly admire, hunt.

There is a HUGE difference between a hunt and a canned hunt.
And putting your pet at risk so you can get your jollies is disgusting.

[Carinata]

I understand that and agree with you there, but I do think that we all desire to see our animals in a natural setting, doing what they would do in nature.

[Outcast]

http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/kidscorner/tr_teddy.htm

Canned hunt.

[starsevol]

I understand that and agree with you there, but I do think that we all desire to see our animals in a natural setting, doing what they would do in nature.

No....no we don't....Not if it is a PET.

[Outcast]

I understand that and agree with you there, but I do think that we all desire to see our animals in a natural setting, doing what they would do in nature.

If that were true, we would all be outside following snakes and other animals around with a notebook taking notes... Wait... that's what I will be doing this summer....DoH!

[Carinata]

I do. I have a fascination with snakes. I would love to see a King Ratsnake take out a Cobra and eat it. Does that mean I want to buy the next Cobra I see at the Hamburg show to feed my snake? No! It means if I had the chance to observe it, say in the wild, I would. I love seeing snakes in nature, it's really cool to watch and gives you a better understanding of the animal.

[Carinata]

If that were true, we would all be outside following snakes and other animals around with a notebook taking notes... Wait... that's what I will be doing this summer....DoH!
I have kept a log of every snake I've found, where I found it, the weather, and what the area was like, since 2008

[Outcast]

I have kept a log of every snake I've found, where I found it, the weather, and what the area was like, since 2008

That is pretty cool stuff man. You should get in touch with your state Fish and Game Herpetologist. I know that they like to get that type of information from people. It helps them with numbers and such.

[Lyion]

Wow. What happened to last point ever lol.

[Lyion]

But yes, I'll admit that I find it fascinating to see how a snake takes down a mouse. However, this isn't the wild, and my snake is a pet snake, so I'll stick to F/T. Honestly, instead of attacking live users, how about we educate? This whole thing could have gone over very smoothly if we simply educated, and not accused.

[Lyion]

Also I'm super sensitive so I would probably grab that mouse the second that I got him in the store and buy a cage with a little wheel and everything.

[Outcast]

But yes, I'll admit that I find it fascinating to see how a snake takes down a mouse. However, this isn't the wild, and my snake is a pet snake, so I'll stick to F/T. Honestly, instead of attacking live users, how about we educate? This whole thing could have gone over very smoothly if we simply educated, and not accused.

Your sentiment is well intended. But, you can only educate those who are willing to be educated. The reason this thread got so out of hand was because within the past few weeks, there have been many people trolling this forum with various threads. Many of the long term members have long since given up even trying to talk to people in these threads, because of the hurt feelings that always happen.

Also, it has been my experience that people tend to only reply to responses that are very passionate. If you go back and read through my responses within this thread, and many threads like this. I rarely get a response, and that is with me posting in a relatively kind, though stern, manner.
I try not to hurt feelings, but by the time I stumble upon threads like this, they have usually taken a turn for the worst anyways.

Also, when you try to educate someone, or try to find out why they do something, and the response is "Its my choice", that tends to get things even more heated, because that is not an answer, it is an excuse to do something dangerous...

I choose to feed F/T because I have a snake with bad scarring from her previous owners feeding live. I fed her live once and she got bit on the head, I didn't like hearing the scream of the mouse. There has been enough death caused directly by my hands, I would much rather get a frozen/packaged mouse to feed my snake. Also, if I had to feed PreKilled, I would do it quick and painless... There are some times when I have to put animals down around the farm, or at work. It hurts me to have to do so, but I know that ending their suffering is better than keeping them alive to suffer longer...

And, I have raised farm animals for food, which one day I hope to do again. It is cheaper than going to the store and buying it from somewhere that pumped God knows what into them. I haven't killed a farm animal since before I joined the military, so I am not sure if I have it in me to do it any more, but I will find out one day.

Now, if I have a non-feeder, or something that I caught that I want to keep (which does happen from time to time) I try to get them to eat live and then ween them to F/T. Luckily I have only ever caught baby snakes and they have all taken one live pink, and immediately switched to F/T. Generally if I cannot get them to eat, they go right back to the spot I caught them at...

And, At the moment I only have 1 W/C snake. A gopher snake that a kid dropped off at Petco. Though this snake refused live and went straight to F/T, no problem. Which is how I ended up with another pet rat...

So, Education does not work unless the other party is willing to be educated.

[Farmgirl]

"That word, I do not think it means what you think it means."

the Princess Bride, I love it!!

[firfly]

I am new here, and read this thread from start to finish. I would like to say everyone has a right to his or her opinion and if you dont agree with it, attack it from a point of education. Not the degrading or redicule of another individual, you value a reptile over its owner and call him inhumane. I realize most of you are thinking this guy is new what right does he have? Well first I am an American so every right afforded as such. Secondly although new to snakes, I have raised and breed tarantulas for years, and am a member of multiple forums to this day. We lost alot of new would be hobbiest over the years with threads such as the one I just read, and that is unfortunate because we had the ability and knowledge if done correctly to educate and possibly change the mind of that indivdual instead, we humiliated, rediculed and made them feel so uncomfortable in one thread they never returned. I am new as stated to snakes I have much to learn from all of you, but it would seem tolerence and patience need to be learned by all concerned.

[Farmgirl]

Nicely said

[Shiari]

There would have been more tolerance and patience without Legion egging the thread on, firfly. He's admitted to trolling several times, so we can never tell if he's being 'serious' or just trying to get a rise out of us.

He gets psychosexual satisfaction out of watching the death of an animal.
He thinks euthanasia in any form, for any reason, is inhumane.
He does not care if his snake gets injured or dies.

And unfortunately, the OP got caught in the crossfire of dealing with the troll.

[beautifullywild77]

A couple of us even apologized to the OP for our behavior!

[firfly]

There would have been more tolerance and patience without Legion egging the thread on, firfly. He's admitted to trolling several times, so we can never tell if he's being 'serious' or just trying to get a rise out of us.

He gets psychosexual satisfaction out of watching the death of an animal.
He thinks euthanasia in any form, for any reason, is inhumane.
He does not care if his snake gets injured or dies.

And unfortunately, the OP got caught in the crossfire of dealing with the troll.

Like I said I read from start to finish, I realize what you are saying, the same holds true on any forum. However the members here that know this could have stopped alot. Its kind of like my parents said, just shake your head and hold your tounge if you have nothing which is neither nice or constructive to add other wise you are part of the problem not a solution. I just wanted everyone here to know that the newbies are reading and learning how you react to a question or post. When they read such an attack you cut off your chances of educating the young herper for fear of reticule when they make a mistake. My son is the reason I am here he has studied and learned much from all of you. I just think maybe everyone should step back and realize some of your members are not adults, they are learning and you are very much teachers.

[firfly]

On another note, I dont want anything Ive posted to come accross as condinseding to anyone just food for thought. I would also like to thank all of you, because of your threads and post I am learning a ton. So thanks so much.;)

[Cassie16]

My logic for not judging those who feed live is this:

I have an indoor/outdoor cat. There are a great deal of people who are very opposed to this. There are people who consider it animal abuse, and feel that I'm putting my cat in danger by letting her roam outside.

I realize the risks of letting her out. There are an overabundance of them; however, I take these risks on a daily basis because it gives me a lot of utility. I like to think that keeping my cat indoors is crueler than exposing her to the volatility of the outdoors, but who knows if she really gives a . (excuse the vulgarity.)

I would be TREMENDOUSLY offended (and annoyed) if an advocate of keeping cats indoors accused me of being selfish, reckless, and indifferent to the safety and happiness of my animal. While I honestly think keeping a cat inside all of the time is cruel in itself, I would never tell someone that who practiced that.

So yes. My musings. I apologize for this being sloppily written- I'm on my phone.

[Cassie16]

Also I'm super sensitive so I would probably grab that mouse the second that I got him in the store and buy a cage with a little wheel and everything.

Me too! He'd be my best little friend for life. I kind of want a mouse, the frozen ones are adorable and I always thank them mentally for their sacrifice. Swear to god. Lol.

[Lyion]

Me too! He'd be my best little friend for life. I kind of want a mouse, the frozen ones are adorable and I always thank them mentally for their sacrifice. Swear to god. Lol.

I've gotten a few weird looks from telling a frozen mouse, "The end if your life shall to help another" lol

[ShenziSixaxis]

There would have been more tolerance and patience without Legion egging the thread on, firfly.

Wait, so just because someone (whom I'm hearing is a troll but not really acting like it from what I see) was doing something annoying, that means everyone else the right to be a-holes? That's not very mature.

[headly1994]

Me too! He'd be my best little friend for life. I kind of want a mouse, the frozen ones are adorable and I always thank them mentally for their sacrifice. Swear to god. Lol.

My.brother bought a live mouse to feed his ball.python (couldn't talk him out of it) so.now I have a pet mouse

[Tara80]

Like I said I read from start to finish, I realize what you are saying, the same holds true on any forum. However the members here that know this could have stopped alot. Its kind of like my parents said, just shake your head and hold your tounge if you have nothing which is neither nice or constructive to add other wise you are part of the problem not a solution. I just wanted everyone here to know that the newbies are reading and learning how you react to a question or post. When they read such an attack you cut off your chances of educating the young herper for fear of reticule when they make a mistake. My son is the reason I am here he has studied and learned much from all of you. I just think maybe everyone should step back and realize some of your members are not adults, they are learning and you are very much teachers.


I really wish more people thought like this. There's a certain point where it becomes less about teaching and more about having to be right, get the last word in and force others to think the way you do.
Think before you reply and if it's driven by emotion and is for one of the above motives... don't post.

[Shiari]

Wait, so just because someone (whom I'm hearing is a troll but not really acting like it from what I see) was doing something annoying, that means everyone else the right to be a-holes? That's not very mature.

That is absolutely NOT what I said.

Legion ADMITTED HIMSELF that he is often trolling. Most of the angry responses were in response to HIM and his word choices such as calling us bleeding hearts, or saying that we don't used sound or reasoned arguments as to why feeding live is detrimental, plus the rather disturbing fact that he gets off by watching something die.

[Iguanagirl8662]

Mr Itchypants, the last post I made was an apology 4 pages ago. GET OVER IT!!! Glad you want to leave. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you!!

Katie, so glad you are back! I have really missed you!!!

PM, I need to rep that post.

Edited to say, I hope the drunken troll is not a liar as well as as cruel horrible pet owner. I hope he really is gone for good, but I suspect the next time he is drunk he will be back a'trollin'. And something tells me he get drunk often....

Thanks Beth, I missed being here but not threads like this lol.

I think it's time for this thread to die.

[ShenziSixaxis]

That is absolutely NOT what I said.

Legion ADMITTED HIMSELF that he is often trolling. Most of the angry responses were in response to HIM and his word choices such as calling us bleeding hearts, or saying that we don't used sound or reasoned arguments as to why feeding live is detrimental, plus the rather disturbing fact that he gets off by watching something die.

Ah. Well, that still doesn't mean everyone can start losing their temper. If he was throwing insults and flaming, he should have been given a suspension or perma-ban, or other suitable punishment.

[Outcast]

Ah. Well, that still doesn't mean everyone can start losing their temper. If he was throwing insults and flaming, he should have been given a suspension or perma-ban, or other suitable punishment.

I don't know why you are so surprised about this. You have read the whole thread right? If you, you should have seen the progression... In threads like this, this ending is usually inevitable, not that I in any way am saying it is right. But, you have been here long enough to have seen this a few times.

[ShenziSixaxis]

True, but I would have figured that this would have been nipped away by now since I'm not very active on the site and haven't been for the past year or so. And this crap disturbs me every time I see it. I don't recommend the site to anyone because of it.

[Outcast]

I always recommend this site. And I warn people too. I tell them that usually discussions about live feeding and cohabitation turns bad, and that there are plenty of debates about political/religious issues as well, so if they do not want to get in to those types of discussions, just don't post in it.

The last lady I spoke to is part of a chameleon forum, and she said that the same type of stuff goes on over there, so this is not just a CS.com phenomenon. It happens in other places as well.

[beautifullywild77]

It happens on a ball python forum. My husband and I have read numerous threads about live feeding where people are even worse.

[Cassie16]

Debating is fun. People enjoy doing it. Even those who say, "let's let this thread die," obviously get some enjoyment out of the back and forth nature of arguments because theyre still around to read them. Argumentative threads get far more participation than any other type.

Perhaps that makes me a bit "trollish". So be it :)

[Caleb McGuire]

Im just wondering, but pinky seems little to big for your snake their. like mine is about that size and 174 grams or little more. Mine should be on adult mice by now dunno why he isnt anyways just by the looks pinkys looks small for your little buddy

[Christen]

Im just wondering, but pinky seems little to big for your snake their. like mine is about that size and 174 grams or little more. Mine should be on adult mice by now dunno why he isnt anyways just by the looks pinkys looks small for your little buddy

What size are you feeding your snake? At 175 grams he can definitely eat adult mice or at least weaned.