Change from frozen to live

[GarethUnsworth]

Hi, my friend has a male jungle corn that is a couple years old. For most of its life it has been fed F/T mice. However, my friend wants to change to live mice. We have tried putting the snake (piglette) in with a live mouse and it almost seems like its scared of it. One time out of the two times the snake did kill the mouse but then didnt eat it.

Any theories?

[RobbiesCornField]

Leave it on f/t. Short, sweet, and to the point.
Live is dangerous. F/t is humane.

[starsevol]

Hi, my friend has a male jungle corn that is a couple years old. For most of its life it has been fed F/T mice. However, my friend wants to change to live mice. We have tried putting the snake (piglette) in with a live mouse and it almost seems like its scared of it. One time out of the two times the snake did kill the mouse but then didnt eat it.

Any theories?

So let me get this straight....
your friend has an adult jungle that has grown and thrived on f/t mice.
So, for no good reason at all he wants to change to live, risking parasites, and bites and scratches from a terrified rodent that can feel pain and fear like any other living thing.

Aside from risking the health and welfare of his snake (his PET that is depending on him to keep it healthy and safe), and aside from needlessly torturing a small animal for no good reason, oh yes, sounds just fine to me.....

[Sarah1228]

Yeah, I agree with Robbiescornfield. If you don't care about doing it the humane way, Why would you even want to stress the snake out? That's sad. If its doing fine in F/T then leave it be.

[Sarah1228]

I Agree!!! :)

So let me get this straight....
your friend has an adult jungle that has grown and thrived on f/t mice.
So, for no good reason at all he wants to change to live, risking parasites, and bites and scratches from a terrified rodent that can feel pain and fear like any other living thing.

Aside from risking the health and welfare of his snake (his PET that is depending on him to keep it healthy and safe), and aside from needlessly torturing a small animal for no good reason, oh yes, sounds just fine to me.....

[beautifullywild77]

I don't see a reason to change from f/t to live. Unless your friend just wants to get some kind of sick thrill from watching a snake kill a live rodent. Too many risks to the snake and not very nice for the mouse.

[taxman123]

I agree why switch. Now if you are feeding live cause you are breeding the mice then pre kill them before you put in the tub you never want to feed live the mouse can injure your snake in seconds. If its not broken dont fix it!!!

[7legion77]

Speaking from experience, I feed live and my snake DID get bitten a week ago. I watched it happen. The bites aren't serious, but I got lucky.

So its up to your friend if he thinks the sick thrill is worth taking a risk you'd probably never recover from (if you really love your pet)

[beautifullywild77]

Wow Legion, I am glad your snake wasnt seriously injured, got really lucky!

[RobbiesCornField]

Speaking from experience, I feed live and my snake DID get bitten a week ago. I watched it happen. The bites aren't serious, but I got lucky.

So its up to your friend if he thinks the sick thrill is worth taking a risk you'd probably never recover from (if you really love your pet)

... I think my brain just broke. Aren't you the same person who tossed a live finch in with your snake?

[diamondlil]

With feeding live, there's never a problem 'til there's a problem, and watching your pet get an avoidable injury makes no sense at all to me, personally. Nor does having to treat avoidable internal parasites. Why do you and your friend want to feed live to an established F/T feeder? For the thrill?
For the snake, there's no benefit at all and a great potential for harm. A cornered mouse can take out an eye if the snake doesn't get the timing of the strike and coil right. Ever been bitten by a mouse? Their teeth are surprisingly long and will leave puncture wounds with a high risk of infection.

[starsevol]

... I think my brain just broke. Aren't you the same person who tossed a live finch in with your snake?

Robs, that was Lavender, he did it in front of his kids to "show them man's dominance over God's creatures" or something like that. He managed to get himself banned from here after causing some discord between me and one of my really good friends (that was not why he was banned, it was just some damage he did along the way). We patched it up though and I am glad of that.

Legion is....well....another one.

[RobbiesCornField]

Robs, that was Lavender, he did it in front of his kids to "show them man's dominance over God'd creatures" or something like that. He managed to get himself banned from here after causing some discord between me and one of my really good friends (that was not why he was banned, it was just some damage he did along the way). We patched it up though and I am glad of that.

Legion is....well....another one.

Ya sure?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1439636&postcount=6

[starsevol]

Ugh, you are right. But I think Lavender did it as well.
Absolutely disgusting, "people" like this give this whole hobby a black eye.
Turns my stomach that I am the same species as someone who could do that.

[nocturnalheaven]

Even if you are feeding live for sick kicks why not cure your morbid fascination by obtaining a live mouse and Prekilling it for your snake? your snake remains safe and you still get to experience the death of a small creature. These are pet snakes in an enclosed environment it is not the same as a wild snake scenario.

[starsevol]

Even if you are feeding live for sick kicks why not cure your morbid fascination by obtaining a live mouse and Prekilling it for your snake? your snake remains safe and you still get to experience the death of a small creature. These are pet snakes in an enclosed environment it is not the same as a wild snake scenario.


Of course you know that is how serial killers get started. Most of them get their kicks from killing small animals and then move up as they get desensitized and need a bigger thrill.

[nocturnalheaven]

Yes, I was thinking that I was typing.... mental stability of the care taker is.... Concerning. Especially after reading the bird post. Why would you even think to do that?

[starsevol]

Yes, I was thinking that I was typing.... mental stability of the care taker is.... Concerning. Especially after reading the bird post. Why would you even think to do that?

Some people should be spayed or neutered and their caretaking limited to pet rocks. They just never evolved from the days when Christians were thrown to the lions for sport.
Sad but true.

[taxman123]

Ya sure?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1439636&postcount=6

You have to be kidding me your going to feed a parakeet to your cornsnake??? Legion your going on the do not sell to list for sure!

[GarethUnsworth]

wow I did not know this would be such a strong topic. I feed my snake live, for no particular reason its just what I started. However, I am now considering the switch the opposite way. I have also shared your feelings with my friend.

[AliCat37]

wow I did not know this would be such a strong topic. I feed my snake live, for no particular reason its just what I started. However, I am now considering the switch the opposite way. I have also shared your feelings with my friend.

You can find hundreds of threads on this topic by using the search function.
I have a corn that I got from some people off craiglist, I have counted at least 12 scars on her from rodent bites. One in particular could have killed her very easily, as it was in the middle of the top of her head. The first few times I offered her food, she almost seemed terrified that she was going to get bit. She has finally realized that the mice are not going to harm her anymore. She does still constrict them, but the fear just isn't there.

There are NO good reasons to feed live.

There are a million good reasons to feed frozen thawed.

[starsevol]

Also, if your snake has eaten live I would suggest that you take a fecal sample to your vet. I can almost guarantee your snake has parasites.

[BloodyBaroness]

wow I did not know this would be such a strong topic. I feed my snake live, for no particular reason its just what I started. However, I am now considering the switch the opposite way. I have also shared your feelings with my friend.

It's really much safer in the long run. If the snake is fearful of live prey, as well as already being on frozen thawed, there is no reason to switch.

Think of it along the lines of feeding a dog kibble all it's life, then suddenly putting it in a room with a rabbit and telling it "now you eat these." It can be confusing and scary for the animal.

If a snake is doing well and eating frozen thawed, there is no logical argument to switch. Zero health benefit, zero quality of life benefit, nothing, no reason. It does not make them feel like more of a snake.

[7legion77]

... I think my brain just broke. Aren't you the same person who tossed a live finch in with your snake?

Of course your brain broke... a drunk person can be utterly different when sober...

I got the finch idea from a youtube video I watched...

...actually I'm quite over the sick thrills by now.

Anyhow, I tried feeding a p/k to my snake last night... and he wouldn't eat it! First time he's ever turned down a meal. Its as if he was scared of the dead mouse, or scared of me or something... or perhaps he's going into early shed to heal from those bites. I wouldn't think a reptile could develop a "learned fear" from a bad fight with a mouse.

Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?

Lets hope this is but an anomaly...

[7legion77]

Of course your brain broke... a drunk person can be utterly different when sober...

I got the finch idea from a youtube video I watched...

...actually I'm quite over the sick thrills by now.

Anyhow, I tried feeding a p/k to my snake last night... and he wouldn't eat it! First time he's ever turned down a meal. Its as if he was scared of the dead mouse, or scared of me or something... or perhaps he's going into early shed to heal from those bites. I wouldn't think a reptile could develop a "learned fear" from a bad fight with a mouse.

Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?

Lets hope this is but an anomaly...

Oh and he's accepted p/k before so I don't think he has a preference for live.

[Nanci]

Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?
.

Is he blue? Plenty of snakes won't eat when blue. If so, I would wait. No matter what the reason for refusal was, I would wait until the next scheduled feeding to offer food again.

[GarethUnsworth]

would you all say that feeding live could make a snake more aggressive towards its owner?

[diamondlil]

would you all say that feeding live could make a snake more aggressive towards its owner? Only if it bears you a grudge:sidestep:

[the_edsta]

Ugh, you are right. But I think Lavender did it as well.
Absolutely disgusting, "people" like this give this whole hobby a black eye.
Turns my stomach that I am the same species as someone who could do that.

It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.

[starsevol]

It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.

Cutting through this pointy-headed overeducated blather, and please correct me if I am wrong, I am getting that since we keep these animals and consume rodents for our own amusement this whole hobby can be considered amoral. The same can be said for any pet that is kept.
However, even though snakes are kept for our amusement there is a huge difference between intentionally causing pain and distress for ANY living thing needlessly, and doing what must be done as humanely as possible. Also, any keeper that keeps these creatures for their own amusement who fails to do what is needed to keep them safe and healthy is not much of a keeper at all.

[Chip]

I agree, Edsta. And the dialog such as "that's how Jeffery Dahmer started" is probably a bit much. But in every case, I assure you the members here are more concerned with the animals and their welfare than anything else. And isn't that what this is all about? And couldn't the same be said for our dogs and cats that eat meat protein?

[7legion77]

It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.

This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Just to clarify, that was in regards to the_edsta's post. I agree with all of the aforementioned reasons for feeding f/t over live.

[Lyion]

This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

School of hard knocks eh? Better you learned before something very bad happened.

[hypnoctopus]

I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.

And feeding raw for your dog is a lot different than throwing a live rabbit in his crate with him to kill and eat.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

And feeding raw for your dog is a lot different than throwing a live rabbit in his crate with him to kill and eat.

This is definitely true, though I'm often met with the same attitude: "do you just like watching your dog eat raw meat." He eats f/t just like the snakes. :)

[Nanci]

Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.

I'm really happy to hear that.

[the_edsta]

My point was really about the rhetoric around the whole thing. I'm all for a debate about good husbandry, but when it suddenly turns into 'these people aren't human' and 'this practice is evil/cruel and INTENT (how does one judge intent?) on doing harm, have you no heart?' etc, the conversation has devolved into ad hominem attacks (not unlike referring to a well thought out post as 'pointy headed overeducated blather'). There is no reason one cannot discuss good practice without putting oneself on a moral high ground. And as life proves to use, sometimes the people who are most righteous in their fervor are the ones getting away with the most.

[Nanci]

I concur. It gets a little old. OTOH, why _do_ people enjoy seeing an animal suffer, when there is an easy alternative? I don't know the answer to that.

[the_edsta]

I fed a toad to my garter snake once. He swallowed it back-end first and I saw the little guy's eyes were looking right at me while he was half way down. That was about it for feeding live toads. But I feed guppies and earthworms live without a problem. I started with garters specifically because I wanted to avoid feeding warm blooded animals.

F/T makes it a heck of a lot easier, but I have to admit there is still some blood on my hands even though my snake and I don't do the killing ourselves. Maybe some people feel like there is something honest about it, like the kinds of arguments hunters usually make (just a thought).

[Chip]

F/T makes it a heck of a lot easier, but I have to admit there is still some blood on my hands even though my snake and I don't do the killing ourselves. Maybe some people feel like there is something honest about it, like the kinds of arguments hunters usually make (just a thought).

There's blood on our hands if we eat meat. Whether we hunt it or let a slaughterhouse kill it for us. As for the snake's being hunters, sure that's what they have evolved to do for millions of years and many I own still do a "death roll" and constrict f/t. Others won't eat if it moving at all. I keep some mice just for live pinks for stubborn feeders, but I must honestly admit that even after over 20 years, it still bothers me a little -but opening that ziplock bag, not one bit! Similarly, I couldn't kill a piglet, but can eat babyback ribs. Is that dishonest in some way? Maybe.

[7legion77]

Is he blue? Plenty of snakes won't eat when blue. If so, I would wait. No matter what the reason for refusal was, I would wait until the next scheduled feeding to offer food again.

Here's an update:

I offered him a p/k mouse today. Did the zombie dance -- Wraith my snake was definitely very interested, kept flicking out his tongue and slooowly approaching the dead mouse.

However, he would not lunge and constrict. I like to have him constrict so he gets some exercise (plus its awesome to watch) but it seems like some great trepidation was holding him back. He's never been afraid to constrict before.
He knew he wanted the mouse though. He stared at it while it sat in front of him for about 10 minutes. Eventually, he ate it :licklips:

Still, I would like to see the constriction response return in the future. His next feeding is in 2-3 weeks so hopefully by then he'll be back to normal. Do snakes develop certain fears, and get over them if given enough time?

[Nanci]

Well, that one that Megan is rehabbing, with the rat bites all over it, was TERRIFIED of rodents for a long time, until she tricked it with a (dead) bird and then followed with fuzzy mice, I think, while he was still in feeding mode.

You might get more of a reaction by waiting until he has taken the mouse, and then gently tugging on it.

[worldsofwonder]

Hi, my friend has a male jungle corn that is a couple years old. For most of its life it has been fed F/T mice. However, my friend wants to change to live mice. We have tried putting the snake (piglette) in with a live mouse and it almost seems like its scared of it. One time out of the two times the snake did kill the mouse but then didnt eat it.

Any theories?

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

[Lyion]

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

If you break the neck, isn't it prekilled? (This isn't sarcastic, I'm actually confused about what you are saying)

[susang]

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

What about the risk of parasites with fresh killed as opposed to f/t?

[alan]

I have a snake that came to me eating live prey years ago(1996-1997?). I started feeding her fresh-killed mice soon after I got her. She's nowa healthy 5' long snake which eats an adult mouse every two weeks.
I'm sure there must be some risk of parasites, I'm not blind to that possibility, but I'm also a "show me" kind of guy. So show me all of the threads here about freshly killed mouse eating corn snakes with parasites. I can't find any. I will say that I've always bought her food from the same LPS. Maybe that helps, maybe they have good practices, dunno. Either it's not really a risk, or nobody on this site posts about it when it happens.
I do NOT enjoy killing the cute Stuart Little looking mice, but I knowit happens very fast when I do it. I have several years of direct observation to prove this to myself. I've never watched mice die from CO2, but I don't feel good about the idea of it. I do understand the difficulty in the logistics of cervical dislocation on thousands of mice, and the fact that people don't want to be so "hands on" when it comes to death, but I think I'll stick with cervical dislocation.

[Nanci]

Have you had a fecal done to look for parasites? Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one. To be fair, I haven't checked any who were fed FT from hatching for worms...

[VickyChaiTea]

Just a tiny bit off topic here, but I'm going to add my thoughts to the_edsta's statement.

Morality is obviously subjective, it varies from person to person. But it stands to reason, that if you want to keep an animal in captivity as your pet that you would want to keep it alive, healthy, and happy... so that you may enjoy it for as long as possible. So it's very anti-productive to feed live. You endanger your snake. It could be as simple as a small nip, or as serious as a mortal wound. Internal parasites are generally non-life threatening... as long as they're treated in time.

So even if you take away the obvious cruelty of feeding a live mouse when otherwise unnecessary... you cannot EVER take away the danger to your snake. So it goes against reason and common sense.

Then of course the argument can be made that feeding live when there are other options is inhumane, cruel, and wrong.

So even though keeping the snake is "for our own amusement" if we are to keep them alive and healthy we need to consider what is best for their diet. If we are to keep carnivores we need to feed them flesh, but that doesn't mean we have to cause pain and agony. So when we do see people causing pain and agony... when they don't need to... and they defend it as safe or proclaim they don't care about the risks... we get mad!

We shouldn't be insulting, as the old adage goes "You attract more bees with honey than vinegar." But we SHOULD stand up for our morals and we SHOULD make valid arguments and educate people.

[alan]

Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one.

Then I would suspect that my Cheerio does have worms. No, I've never done a fecal test.
I would also suspect, with no real evidence, that a snake eating only frozen and always being in a closed environment wouldn't have them.
The question I have now would be whether that is normal and not detrimental, or if it causes ill effects in life quality or longevity. I have an old snake, she's never exhibited signs of any illness, no change. She can still put on weight easily if I let her, has good poop, great eater, good sheds.
Edit add: I was way off on the date, I'm not so good at that. We got her in 2002, they told us at that time she was seven.

[worldsofwonder]

What about the risk of parasites with fresh killed as opposed to f/t?

Are you catching your own mice from your property? If so then yes they have parasites. If you get mice from a clean facility, and a repitable breeder then good luck getting any parasites. They would never sell any mice that might have parasites. The freezing process makes sense and all but you are losing some nutrients. Pre-killed moments before feeding is fine, no risk of bitting, or scratching. They freeze mice for our conveniance, not the snakes.

[worldsofwonder]

If you break the neck, isn't it prekilled? (This isn't sarcastic, I'm actually confused about what you are saying)

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

[starsevol]

Have you had a fecal done to look for parasites? Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one. To be fair, I haven't checked any who were fed FT from hatching for worms...

Are you catching your own mice from your property? If so then yes they have parasites. If you get mice from a clean facility, and a repitable breeder then good luck getting any parasites. They would never sell any mice that might have parasites. The freezing process makes sense and all but you are losing some nutrients. Pre-killed moments before feeding is fine, no risk of bitting, or scratching. They freeze mice for our conveniance, not the snakes.

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

First off, yes mice from a clean facility can have worms, didn't you read what Nanci said? Every single snake she has ever had that has eaten live food has had worms.
And I would imagine that getting allll the nutrients possible is very important to a snake that never knows when it is going to eat again, but captive animals that eat every week get all the need as far as nutrients, whether the food is frozen or not.

[worldsofwonder]

First off, yes mice from a clean facility can have worms, didn't you read what Nanci said? Every single snake she has ever had that has eaten live food has had worms.
And I would imagine that getting allll the nutrients possible is very important to a snake that never knows when it is going to eat again, but captive animals that eat every week get all the need as far as nutrients, whether the food is frozen or not.

Because one person says they have checked everyone of their snakes, sure, if you say so. I have hundreds of snakes and good luck checking all of them. I have checked some and they came back as clean for parasites, all were fed pre-killed.

[starsevol]

Because one person says they have checked everyone of their snakes, sure, if you say so. I have hundreds of snakes and good luck checking all of them. I have checked some and they came back as clean for parasites, all were fed pre-killed.

Yippee, you checked some of your hundreds of snakes. Whoopy do.
Stating that snakes can't get parasites from live mice is a false statement IF SOMEONE'S SNAKES GOT PARASITES FROM LIVE MICE!!!

Your vast store of knowledge fails to impress......

[Nanci]

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

[beautifullywild77]

Actually freezing mice and then thawing doesn't really lose all that much nutrients for it to be better to feed pre-killed or live. Just like freezing your meat from cows or elk. Believe me I asked a professor of meat science that question.

I also highly doubt big breeder facilities check every single mouse or rat they breed for parasites. Look at what happened with RodentPro. There is a higher chance of contracting parasites from live or prekilled rodents.

[starsevol]

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

Very good point!!

Also, owning alot of something for a long long time does NOT mean you're an expert. I own alot of shoes, and have owned shoes all my life but that doesnt make me a cobbler.

Just a friendly word of advice, you would fit in alot better around here if you would lose the arrogance.

[worldsofwonder]

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

are you serious? if one can have 640 snakes one can handle the amount of mice. I built a seperate play house in the backyard which house the mice. I have it down to a science, feeding takes 2 days to accomplish, all snakes are feed on time. The babies eat live pinkies, it's hard to sever the spine of a pinkie, there is no tail to hold on to.

[beautifullywild77]

And sampling just a fraction of your collection and they come back negative for parasites doesn't mean the other portion is clean as well. If you keep them in their own housing and use sanitary methods to clean and change water as to not contaminate then you wouldnt know who has parasites and who doesnt.

Just my opinion.

[starsevol]

Actually freezing mice and then thawing doesn't really lose all that much nutrients for it to be better to feed pre-killed or live. Just like freezing your meat from cows or elk. Believe me I asked a professor of meat science that question.

I also highly doubt big breeder facilities check every single mouse or rat they breed for parasites. Look at what happened with RodentPro. There is a higher chance of contracting parasites from live or prekilled rodents.

Thanks for that Steph! You make some excellent points.

[beautifullywild77]

And sampling just a fraction of your collection and they come back negative for parasites doesn't mean the other portion is clean as well. If you keep them in their own housing and use sanitary methods to clean and change water as to not contaminate then you wouldnt know who has parasites and who doesnt. except for the ones you have tested

Just my opinion.

I meant to add....

[worldsofwonder]

Very good point!!

Also, owning alot of something for a long long time does NOT mean you're an expert. I own alot of shoes, and have owned shoes all my life but that doesnt make me a cobbler.

Just a friendly word of advice, you would fit in alot better around here if you would lose the arrogance.

just like you I want to help others with issues they need answered. I have lots of time and experiance when it comes to snakes and reptiles, this is what I know. I'm not arrogant. I don't own a store or have a hi-teck breeding facility, nor have I wrote any books on the subject. I know what I know because I breath and live this life. I did graduate from Earlham College for herpitology so that does make me somewhat of an expert.

[beautifullywild77]

Well a college education doesn't automatically make one an expert in the field of their major. I graduated with a major in Special Education and a minor in History. Educated in those fields yes but expert no.

All people are stated is there is a higher risk of parasites from feeding live and prekilled rodents. I do have a few snakes who at one time would only eat live or prekilled. They never got a parasite but that is not saying they couldn't have. They both got fecal tests done at the vet and came out clean. They now are on f/t and thriving along with all my other snakes who eat f/t.

[worldsofwonder]

The question was is it ok to feed prekilled from frozen? The answer in my opinion YES YOU CAN.

It's a personal opinion that's it that's all.

[starsevol]

just like you I want to help others with issues they need answered. I have lots of time and experiance when it comes to snakes and reptiles, this is what I know. I'm not arrogant. I don't own a store or have a hi-teck breeding facility, nor have I wrote any books on the subject. I know what I know because I breath and live this life. I did graduate from Earlham College for herpitology so that does make me somewhat of an expert.

Well telling people that their snakes can't get parasites from live food or fresh killed is a massive fail.
And like I said before, I have lots of time and experiance owning and driving cars...doesn't make me a mechanic.
And whether or not you consider yourself arrogant is besides the point. Arrogant is how you are presenting yourself.

[beautifullywild77]

The question was actually is it ok to go from f/t to Live mice? The answer is why would you want to do that?

[worldsofwonder]

Well telling people that their snakes can't get parasites from live food or fresh killed is a massive fail.
And like I said before, I have lots of time and experiance owning and driving cars...doesn't make me a mechanic.
And whether or not you consider yourself arrogant is besides the point. Arrogant is how you are presenting yourself.

The one thing Jeffery told me about this site is he got bad advise and the arrogance here is sufficating. DO and SAY what you want, give some bad advise give some good advise. All I said is yes you can feed them live, then you people attack me and my credentials, asking to see pics of my set up for proof of what I do. And you are whom? That's right no one. Just like me.

[worldsofwonder]

The question was actually is it ok to go from f/t to Live mice? The answer is why would you want to do that?

No the answer is YES OR NO!!!! why would you is another question. not an answer.

[starsevol]

The one thing Jeffery told me about this site is he got bad advise and the arrogance here is sufficating. DO and SAY what you want, give some bad advise give some good advise. All I said is yes you can feed them live, then you people attack me and my credentials, asking to see pics of my set up for proof of what I do. And you are whom? That's right no one. Just like me.

#1 Never heard of this Jeffrey person.

#2 Exactly what bad advice did he get here?

#3 The word is "suffocating", and you are the one who seems to think that because you own hundreds of animals, and know a few latin names with your degree, that your word is the be-all and end-all. Guess what? It isn't!!!

#4 No, you did not say "yes you can feed them live", you said that feeding live mice does not transmit parasites to snakes. And when someone stated that YES INDEED her snakes got parasites from live food, you pooh poohed it. Sorry, saying that snakes can't get parasites from live or fresh killed food was WRONG WRONG WRONG and all your fancy schmancy education does not change that fact.

#5 Some people wanted to see pics of your set up because...well we LIKE to look at pictures of snakes, and how others with large collections set up their snakerooms. Some people were trying to be FRIENDLY.

#6 I never said I was anybody. I am not the one here bragging on years and years of experiance and hundreds and hundreds of animals and thinking saying that will impress us poor schucks over here at cs.com. That was all you!

[beautifullywild77]

Not sure it is so black and white.

So you joined the site because your friend Jeffery told you that people here give out wrong advice and arrogant. So you joined to "shake things up" To prove people wrong? To start trouble?

[worldsofwonder]

Are you catching your own mice from your property? If so then yes they have parasites. If you get mice from a clean facility, and a repitable breeder then good luck getting any parasites. They would never sell any mice that might have parasites. The freezing process makes sense and all but you are losing some nutrients. Pre-killed moments before feeding is fine, no risk of bitting, or scratching. They freeze mice for our conveniance, not the snakes.

I can see how you can say I said "feeding live will not give parasites". I never said it in those words but Ok. I guess I don't read what I type all that much. That is not what I meant. Mice breeding facilities are meant to be clean and disease free, but not all are like that. I did loose 2 snakes due to internal parasites, it was due to a bad mouse or the water dish was not changed when it should have been. My friends can only help me so much, in the end it was my bad.

Freezing does not garantee all parasites will die the eggs seem to survive, buy mice from a disease free facility. Over time a frozen mouse will loose nutrients.

Live food no, to much that can go wrong.

Pre-killed for those fussy eaters its the best way to go in my mind. As one pet owner to another.

[worldsofwonder]

Not sure it is so black and white.

So you joined the site because your friend Jeffery told you that people here give out wrong advice and arrogant. So you joined to "shake things up" To prove people wrong? To start trouble?

That is the last thing I want to do. How can I prove anyone wrong when I don't know them. Jeffery was never a member but if you google search such things as corn snakes you come across this forum. What he said to me was just what I posted, to hate me. I don't even know him that well. I joined because I can not comment on anything until I did so. DO you hear yourself, I just answered a question then all this happened. Forget my past forget what I know. Hi my name is Drexal and I love corn snakes.

[starsevol]

I can see how you can say I said "feeding live will not give parasites". I never said it in those words but Ok. I guess I don't read what I type all that much. That is not what I meant. Mice breeding facilities are meant to be clean and disease free, but not all are like that. I did loose 2 snakes due to internal parasites, it was due to a bad mouse or the water dish was not changed when it should have been. My friends can only help me so much, in the end it was my bad.

Freezing does not garantee all parasites will die the eggs seem to survive, buy mice from a disease free facility. Over time a frozen mouse will loose nutrients.

Live food no, to much that can go wrong.

Pre-killed for those fussy eaters its the best way to go in my mind. As one pet owner to another.

I am glad you backtracked your posts and saw where I was coming from.
Are you aware of the problem RodentPro is having now? RodentPro is one of the biggest and most reputable mouse producing facilities known, and...well check out the BOI when you get a chance.

[starsevol]

That is the last thing I want to do. How can I prove anyone wrong when I don't know them. Jeffery was never a member but if you google search such things as corn snakes you come across this forum. What he said to me was just what I posted, to hate me. I don't even know him that well. I joined because I can not comment on anything until I did so. DO you hear yourself, I just answered a question then all this happened. Forget my past forget what I know. Hi my name is Drexal and I love corn snakes.

Hi Drexal I am Beth, and I love corn snakes too!

And when you get a chance, I would love to see some pics of your scalekids. I have a few pics of mine in my member forum on here.

[Lennycorn]

Not sure it is so black and white.

So you joined the site because your friend Jeffery told you that people here give out wrong advice and arrogant. So you joined to "shake things up" To prove people wrong? To start trouble?

Hmmm does make you think why join. Making friends doesn't seem to be the point.

There are people here with degrees who don't flaunt it in our faces.

[worldsofwonder]

some serious stuff...