Dead Snake

[AliCat37]

So, I got a few extra snakes in a shipment a few weeks ago, and 3/4 of the free babies regurged their first meals. I treated them with nutribac and held off food for 14 days, and 2 of them still regurged their second meals. Today, I went to check on them, and 3/4 kept their meals down, the fourth one had regurged, and I went to pick him up, only to find him already dead. Do I need to take him to a specialist for a necropsy, or can any vet do that? I just really worry that something might be wrong with all these kids. They are quarantined away from most of my collection and I always took care of them last, but if it is something airborne I am worried they all could have gotten it. The older male I got with them has not had any issues, it was just the free group of hatchlings.
:(
I was not attached to this baby, but I am still sad! I never had any just die before.

[bitsy]

Is there a reason why they were free - were they problem feeders or non-eaters? If so, chances are that they may have some fundamental issues. In this scenario I wouldn't be rushing for a necropsy.

Also depends where you bought them as to whether it might just be bad luck or something more fundamental. Have you contacted the seller?

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

I wouldn't think non-feeders would eat for you so easily (or maybe you have the touch?).

Perhaps poor shipping conditions/temps left them sick.

Perhaps the previous owner didn't feed them and they didn't have the energy to keep down their meals.

I'd definitely go easy with half pinks or something for a while.

[AliCat37]

I am not sure why they were free, I was notified upon shipping that I had four extras along with the snake I bought. I have not contacted the seller yet, but I have contacted another member who also received extras about the issue, they had the same problem but it did not continue like with mine. I don't think I have a touch with non feeders lol, these guys ate the very first time I offered pinks to them. The others did not regurgitate this time, it was just the one that is now deceased. I have him stored in my refrigerator for now.

[epicdoom]

For some its just not in the cards no matter what you do some will always pass. its just nature culling the weak sad to say but true. I know even tho no attachment its still hard to loose one under your care. Regurge is a crazy thing there are so many reasons it can happen and not the easiest thing to nail down to an exact cause, because many factors can be involved. We can only do our best with the little time there is to try and sort out the issues causing it. Unfortunately by the time we do get it sorted its to late. I would call the seller maybe it was happening under his care hopefully he can shed some light to help save the others you have. I wish you luck with them

[Nanci]

I would be REALLY angry if someone sent me snakes I didn't adk for, especially non-feeders. REALLY angry.

[AliCat37]

It is hard, I knew after the second regurge dispite having had the nutribac that his chances were slim. I had hoped that he would pull through like my petco kid. Nanci, I doubt they were non feeders since they ate willingly each time. They were extras from a project and the non-morph outcomes

[cornsnakeforsale_com]

You didn't know you were getting "free" snakes? That's really not cool, pushing some burden on someone else and risking spreading disease to your animals, not to mention the cost of caring for additional snakes and making you feel like you should be spending money on veterinary services for them. Shame on you whoever you are.

[Pugsley]

I've lost a few this year and it isn't easy, at least it isn't easy on me. From one breeder I bought 6 hatchlings that were eating for him. Two really never ate well for me and I lost them quickly. One ate for me, skipping a meal now and again, but nothing I was worried about. Went to feed it and it was dead. So it can happen even with the bought ones. Some times living things fail in one place or for one person and thrive in another or for someone else.

It would be hard to guess who would be happy to get some extra free snakes in an order and who wouldn't be happy about it. I've read here where several people were thrilled to get extras. The breeders here, well I don't think any of them would send free snakes that were known problems to them.

Now that I think about it, I can see how some people wouldn't like the freebies. Space planning, food supplies, equipment, breeding plans, etc, all could be disrupted with some freebies. Not for everybody, but for some it would be. Hmmm, maybe a good new topic thread.

[bitsy]

I would be REALLY angry if someone sent me snakes I didn't adk for, especially non-feeders. REALLY angry.
Absolutely! To be dumped with problem snakes without warning is very poor indeed. It's a nice seller who offloads anything that looks like it might be hard work or potentialy need vet attention. I can understand maybe the seller asking in advance - many people would have the time, space and money to give some babes a bit of TLC and might be pleased with freebies. But without asking? Bad practice. Very bad.

Not to mention the fact that I have very limited space - even one unexpected new snake would cause havoc in the main area where I keep them. I'd actually have to throw furniture away to fit them in (after quarantine *and* spending potentially months getting them to eat *and* if they don't die on me).

Ali - Have you checked the BOI to see if there are other potential issues with the seller?

[Nanci]

It would be hard to guess who would be happy to get some extra free snakes in an order and who wouldn't be happy about it. I've read here where several people were thrilled to get extras.


You don't have to guess. You can ASK. I would _never_ risk my babies being unwanted gifts.

I think when people are thrilled, it's to get extra by-product babies from the same project, _maybe_.

[AliCat37]

Ali - Have you checked the BOI to see if there are other potential issues with the seller?

I did check before buying (and also just now) both threads and all the replies to them are positive.

[Nanci]

Did you notify the seller that you are having problems?

[AliCat37]

Did you notify the seller that you are having problems?

Yes, he is aware of the issue.

[AliCat37]

Just had the necropsy done, the good news is that nothing at all pointed towards crypto. The vet did a culture slide and he did find an abnormal amount of bacteria, however. Clostridium bacterial infection, he said he had never seen such a severe infection of that before. It is possible that whatever bedding he was housed on is a cause

[Christen]

That is very interesting. Did the vet prescribe meds for the remaining babies that regurged?

[AliCat37]

That is very interesting. Did the vet prescribe meds for the remaining babies that regurged?

No, I didn't bring all of them in and they have to see them before prescribing meds. If they regurge their next meals I'll take them in, but they kept the last one down, so I have my fingers crossed. He also said that the little guy was underweight (I kinda thought so, but figured maybe they were just really fresh babies). I am just happy they don't have crypto.

[rich333]

Ali,

Thats Some good news! But if i might ask...and please don't be offended...but

the belief is the infection may be caused by the bedding...correct? who's

Bedding? yours or where they came from? Or both?

I'm just curious as to what else you might house them with other than aspen.

Again, So Happy to hear that nothing screams Crypto! :)

[AliCat37]

I doubt it was mine, since then all my snakes would be having issues. I'm using the same aspen I have been, the Alfa pet brand from Walmart. But I ordered an 8ft bag that should be here any day so I will be changing all the bedding even though it is still fresh.

[Chip]

I would be REALLY angry if someone sent me snakes I didn't adk for, especially non-feeders. REALLY angry.

This. I don't like surprises. Extra animals I didn't ask for -that I now have to care for -ESPECIALLY with health issues, vet expenses, etc. -would make me livid. Don S. has put "extras" in my shipments before that would make future "dates" to the more expensive animals I was buying, and even in those cases he checked first to make sure I had room and wanted them. What if the snakes you were buying completely filled your rack up? Then what do you do with "gifts?"

And FWIW, pretty sure I have been informed of high bacteria counts on every necropsy I have had done on a reptile. To memory, Pseudomonas aeromonas, samonella and E. coli are often named, though the reports state that they likely were not the cause of the snake's demise. Outside of a mata mata that had high levels of copper from feeder goldfish in the diet, I've yet to get a necropsy that taught me why a reptile died. I know it's frustrating, but it's not your fault, and you shouldn't be dealing with these ailing animals.

[El Jefe]

I would be REALLY angry if someone sent me snakes I didn't adk for, especially non-feeders. REALLY angry.

You are not alone. Extra animals without prior communication is not a good idea.

[AliCat37]

:( Just found a second one dead. This was the one that was always regurging. I had been giving him nutribac daily, and last week he ate the leg from a fuzzy that had nutribac on it. I was SO happy yesterday when I saw that he had still kept it down. But I just went to check on him and he was upside down and twisted up.. I figure he deserved a proper burial.

So Now I have one that is doing fine, eats all the time without issue as of late, and the other is just simply refusing to eat.

[BloodyBaroness]

I am so sorry that happened hun.

[Nanci]

Wow- I'm so sorry.

[AliCat37]

It is really disappointing. I am glad that one of them is doing well though. She is a little spit fire too, always rattling and striking.

[Nanci]

Are these babies the original purchases or the freebies?

[AliCat37]

The freebies, the one I purchased is and has been doing great, no issues at all. They are all quarantined though.

[HermesMom]

Awe, so sorry to hear. God speed little corns.

[MysticExotics]

So sorry to hear that you lost another one :(

[Lyreiania]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I agree with all of the other posters who were outraged that a seller would send extra free animals without word or warning; animals are a huge responsibility. I thank you so very much for your care and kindness to and of these orphaned snakelings.

Clostridium infections are awful. I can not speak from the snake perspective of course, but I know I suffered when I had one (Clostridium difficile)after a hospital admission. I hope it does not affect the snakes the way it does man; in humans it causes horrid stomach spasms along with the vomiting, and vile diarrhea,which I think you would have mentioned had it been there. It also is contagious....I would wonder not only about your other snakes, which are in isolation, but you yourself...can you get it from these hatchlings? Was it C diff that was found? If so, you may be in for a long siege. I hope you are not, and all is well and again, thank you so very much for taking on the care of these babies. The seller never should have sent them to you without first asking.

[dave partington]

I sent the free babies with hets because about a dozen other breeders had made me the same offer (or sent without asking if I wanted them) over the last 3 years. And for that i am grateful. Back then I looked at it as a taste of what was to come. Some died, some lived, learned to FF, etc.

October 7th she finally paid via Paypal, but wanted me to ship 2 weeks later. So I shipped her coral ghost yearling and the 4 hatchlings on October 18th.
I did not hear anything more until I saw this Dead Snake thread;
started December 3.

Followed it but did not comment. Exchanged a couple more PMs with her. She had a biopsy done on a dead baby snake after it had been in her fridge awhile. Whatever. I gave her a 100% refund, $123.00, cost of the snake & shipping.


I use fresh disposable plastic cups for water with each baby snake here, each is housed individually, on a paper napkin, they get a 100% cleaning every 3-5 days, prior to feeding. No aspen with babies, just a clean paper napkin. Separate disposable 1-time-use pinky food dish.

[Justine66]

oh my lord! that poor animal.. :(

I don't know how anyone would allow for the tank to get that way.
that actually makes me very angry. (I follow a very similar routine to yours with my one hatchling, he's only on paper towels, with a corner of care fresh for burrowing, a vine to hide in and and some dry Sphagnum moss also for burrowing. oh and of course his warm and cool hide & a water dish) AND this is all in a stearilight tub, and still leaves him plenty of room too explore..

he only has one feeding tub, but I clean it after each use, for my own preference


I think that spot cleaning the tank daily is sort of BASIC when if comes to taking care of a pet, especially a snake that LIVES most of its life flat on ground-"i know that I wouldnt enjoy laying in/crawling through/ or even just having to avoid putting my face in my own feces ..." just saying ....

sorry for the little bit of a rant I had there: but that just disgust me! :crazy01:

[Nanci]

I'm not taking sides, here, not calling either party a liar. I have seen this photo. I am not convinced that the green area is mold. Is it just an artifact made by the camera? The mouse, the snake, the person's hand and sleeve all look to have green areas to me, too. Is it a shadow? I can't tell.

[Isoldael]

This might be me being silly, but isn't that just shade rather than moldy aspen? Looks to me like that was where the water bowl was...

[Justine66]

good call nanci! I honestly didn't notice the other green spots in the photo.. could very well be. but if its not, Its still very wrong.. but I do pole that you pointed that out!
thank you

[Nanci]

Well, under the water bowl is where you'll get mold, and it happens VERY fast- in days- if there is a water bowl spill, or even more likely, you scrub the bowl and don't dry the bottom off before replacing it. The mold I've seen, though, is black.

I have very, very rarely seen a poop get moldy, if it's in a warm area, and that mold is green.

[chag67]

I logged in to FB and it looks like the video has been removed.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

To me, it looks more like a shadow than mold. I'm partially colourblind though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Carinata]

Gotta say it looks like a shadow to me. Nanci is right though, you do get mold very quickly under water dishes, especially if they spill it or if it's still damp after you clean it.

[crotalis40741]

It is sad that the baby snakes died, and I do know what you are going thru with losing babies like that. With that said. It seems the thread is getting off base.
When we send babies out to their new homes, somewhere down the road some are going to die. Whether it be stress, weather, or just bad luck. And when that happens we have to do what is right. And I think in this case it was.
The full price of the purchased snake was refunded, the others seem to have been OOE babies. We all know that no matter how good the breeder is and no matter how skilled the new owner is these things can and do happen.
I am not taking sides, just giving my opinion on what I see here. I also think this is not the right place to address this.

[Nanci]

I disagree, Bob. This is the Health Issues section, and it is a health issue being discussed. The breeder was not mentioned by name at all, until he came forward.

[crotalis40741]

I agree is a health section, like I said was my opinion. Just seems like most of the thread is about the snakes arriving without being known they were shipped.

[Nanci]

Well, I think that's a legitimate topic for discussion, too.

Generally speaking, maybe some people who have not bought snakes over the Internet don't even realize that some generous breeders will include freebie snakes, sometimes. I think we've explored the range of snakes that could be offered for free, from nice gifts to extras to fill out the project, to poor or non-feeders, to kinked snakes, and why a breeder would do this, and why this may or may not be a welcome surprise. And also, maybe people who DO NOT want a surprise have learned to clearly state that to the person sending them the snake(s).

[crotalis40741]

So do we have proof either way that they were surprises or not? I think that is the biggest issue everyone has had on here.

[AliCat37]

I was not told about the freebies until they had been shipped.

[AliCat37]

Woah! Okay, when did I ask you to hold a coral ghost for me? I would like to see that pm. When you posted the original thread of the male coral ghosts for sale in october is the very first time we spoke about the snake. I was not told until after you had shipped him that you had included four free babies, at the time I was grateful for. Upon arrival they all got settled in to their separate tubs, as you may recall from the phone conversation we had after I picked them up. After a week, I fed them. The coral ghost male kept down, and has kept down all his food. One of the babies has not had issues and is doing well, each of the others have had issues since they arrived. Also, that snake that is being fed in the picture is not the one from you, that is my specter and if you honestly feel that the shadow in the picture is mold, then I ask you to drop in and see my snakes unannounced at any time. Regardless, the question is why would they all have issues the very week of arrival if this was a question of my husbandry?

[AliCat37]

If you were being contacted in July about a Cg male, it was not by me. I also never asked or agreed to getting freebies in August, since I originally spoke to you in October. I did not start new PMs for contacting you either, I sincerely believe you have me confused with some one else. The last message I have from you, from the original PM I sent you is from dec 12, but none of the original discussion starting in October is on it. I do not have the PMs either as my inbox filled sometime ago. Also, I will not discuss names, as I have not the rest of the thread, but I spoke to at least three other members here which encountered the same issue. Yes, a refund was given for the coral ghost to help cover the necropsy on the snake that died. I appreciated it, and it was brought up that I could just bring the other's to a pet store. IF the babies were healthy I would, but they are not, though they would fit in with all the other sick snakes there. The video of the feeding to my 2011 female specter, flatline, is still on Facebook, anyone is more than welcome to add me as a friend and view it for yourself.

[ghosthousecorns]

I hope you can both solve this amiably. I am sorry the snakes died, but if Dave has refunded you I don't know what else is expected of him. I'm sure the free snakes were meant as a nice gesture. I'm also pretty sure Dave will probably check with people from now on if they want the freebies or not. It's hard to know if someone will be into that, which is why if I think someone might like an extra snake I ask them first. I agree with what Bob said - sometimes they just don't make it and it isn't anybody's fault. Any breeder feels awful when this happens to a baby they sold someone, the good ones step up and try to make it right.

[Nanci]

I agree- I'm sure Dave was including the free snakes in a nice gesture. He would never intentionally send ailing babies- he has a heart of gold. The whole thing is just sad.

[Christen]

Do I need to take him to a specialist for a necropsy, or can any vet do that? I just really worry that something might be wrong with all these kids. They are quarantined away from most of my collection and I always took care of them last, but if it is something airborne I am worried they all could have gotten it. The older male I got with them has not had any issues, it was just the free group of hatchlings.


I just want to remind everyone what the concerns originally were when this thread got posted. It wasn't the intent to bad mouth the breeder or the OP for that matter. It was just to get some concerns answered. I don't think that the OP is looking for anything more other than to maybe resolve the miscommunication. TBH I kind of hate the turn that this thread has taken. I personally think highly of the OP and the breeder and I hate to see either of them getting their reputation tarnished the way that it could or has from this thread.

[Nanci]

I know. Both are good people. A sad thing happened. We have all learned from this.

[AliCat37]

And I don't expect anything more to be done, I already feel that the most that could have happened has, I just wanted to share what is going on here with the critters. I didn't mean to cause an upset.

[dave partington]

Michelle, I'd like to apologize. I was way off here. I was wrong. I had confused some invoices which were shipped out the same week. I'm sorry I said things about you which were not true. I've edited my other post on this thread. But I know I may have done some damage and I truly regret it. I don't know what to do at this point. I've been a total jackass & then some, & it shows. . I'm sorry I sent extra stuff you did not want into your life. Also, what did the necropsy cost you? Can I paypal that over to you? We seem to have overlooked that.
I've looked at all your pics around the web. You have a really beautiful setup there. Well displayed animals, everything is immaculately clean, pristine. First class all the way. For everyone else reading this, friend Michelle on fB & you can see for yourself.
I realize I've lost a lot of reputation in this community. To anyone who feels I have wronged them in any way, just let me know and I'll do whatever it takes to make things as right as possible. Preferably via private message or email, but it's your choice and I will respect that.
I have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you to all participants.
Michelle, you are a good & honorable person. Thank you for being you.
dp

[Nanci]

Stellar example of how to handle a mix-up, right there...

[Christen]

Thank you Dave for clarifying the misunderstanding. I don't think anyone would disagree that you meant well by sending freebies. It is to bad that this has happened but everyone can see that you meant well and will do the right thing by your customers.

[rich333]

Just goes to show, a miscommunication can have profound effects.

Dave,

You've lost no respect by me. I can only speak from experience...and while I've not posted pics of the 2 babies I got from you in awhile now, you and everyone else needs to know, they are doing great, eating well & growing!

I think you've done what all in this hobby expects.... Going above & beyond to make things right.

Bravo to you good sir!

[bitsy]

Kudos to both parties at this point. Well said, both.

[AliCat37]

Dave,
No worries. As the Coral Ghost (Wendigo) is a happy healthy boy, the refund went to the necropsy, I was not expecting the refund at all since the issue is with the free kids. I appreciate your honesty, and I in no way feel that you sent sick snakes knowingly. They may have been fine at your place and the stress of shipping brought out an underlying issue. You are a very busy guy with a lot of critters so it is easy to have a few mix ups between invoices :) I am sorry I came off harsh yesterday. Not to use it as an excuse, but I wasn't having a very good day to begin with then I came on here and saw all these discussions that had spiraled downward from what I had intended, and I responded back from my phone without really going through and reading everything before replying. I figured that there had been a mix up, but only realized it later on when I had time to reflect on it. I apologize for everything that has happened, and I am doing my best to get the other little one back on track.
Thank you, and sorry again for how this turned out, it was not my intention when I started the thread.

[ryoverde]

I'm always a day late... Out of curiosity, having suffered very nearly your exact problems from a seller, may I ask, even as a PM, whom the seller was? And if you have posted/checked the BOI (um, Board of Inquiry) pages? Just wondering...

Cara B, SA TX

[dave partington]

I'm always a day late... Out of curiosity, having suffered very nearly your exact problems from a seller, may I ask, even as a PM, whom the seller was? And if you have posted/checked the BOI (um, Board of Inquiry) pages? Just wondering...

Cara B, SA TX

I am the seller of the snake she purchased, the dead one was a freebie.
This is me being openly honest. I learned a lot this year. I owe Michelle a debt of gratitude.

Have you contacted the person or company you acquired your snake from?

[Christen]

I'm always a day late... Out of curiosity, having suffered very nearly your exact problems from a seller, may I ask, even as a PM, whom the seller was? And if you have posted/checked the BOI (um, Board of Inquiry) pages? Just wondering...

Cara B, SA TX

I would contact the seller. If the seller is as good as Dave they will do the right thing. I am sorry that you had to go through something like that.

[AliCat37]

I'm always a day late... Out of curiosity, having suffered very nearly your exact problems from a seller, may I ask, even as a PM, whom the seller was? And if you have posted/checked the BOI (um, Board of Inquiry) pages? Just wondering...

Cara B, SA TX

Hi Cara,

Dave has openly stated on this thread that he was the seller. The issue has been resolved as best as possible and I would still buy snakes from him. The issue that occurred was with some project extras that were free with the snake I ordered. The snake I bought, as well as the remaining hatchling, are both doing well with no issues. I only have good things to say about Dave and how the issue was handled.

[Wyldrose]

I am glad you two worked things out.

How are the other two doing? I hope they thrive and do well.

[AliCat37]

Unfortunately the third sickly one did pass away last week, but the fourth one is doing very well. She is a hateling to her core, every time I open her tub she coils up, flattens her head out and begins rattling her tail at me. She's pretty silly lol