Nematodes FYI

[Nanci]

I have a snake. She's a 2007. She's been bred in 2011 and 2012. Had two nice big clutches. I'd planned on giving her the year off in 2013.

So I went to feed her two weeks ago Saturday, and she felt "puffy." Kind of squishy. She has always been in perfect health until now. I went ahead and fed her- maybe she was blue. Two weeks later- feeding day again- no poop. So I fed her again, because she seemed normal and not distressed. She still felt gassy or puffy to me. Wednesday I thought she should have for sure pooped. I had her swim for 20 minutes- nothing.

Today I took her to work and took an x-ray of her. I didn't see anything unusual. I brought her to the vet this afternoon. He felt her and agreed she was gassy. I asked what causes that? He said "bacteria." In the x-ray, everything looked fine. Lung- fine. GI tract- fine. Her stomach wasn't enlarged. The vet massaged her belly until she pooped. It didn't _look_ like he was using anything more than gentle pressure.

He was going to do a grams stain. First, though, he called me back to look at a fecal float which contained nematode eggs! I told him this snake had _never_ been fed live with me, for the past four years, and to the best of my knowledge never before, either. He said that parasites _can_ survive freezing for a time. He said she could have had them for YEARS and they just didn't cause a problem until her bacteria got upset.

The grams stain showed instead of the normal 50:50 ratio of positive and negative, she had, I _think_ many fewer negative than she should have. But he didn't want to do anything about that, yet. Her treatment is oral deworming today and in two weeks. For two weeks, feed her as much as she'll eat- feed as soon as she poops. Every three-four days. Get her gut moving and the good bacteria growing. Then repeat the grams stain in two weeks and see how it looks.

Moral of the story- if the snake feels puffy- bring in a fecal.

I had envisioned some horrible bacterial infection, or a bowel obstruction requiring surgery, so a diagnosis of nematodes was a huge relief.

[Karoni]

I'm glad it wasn't anything serious but am sorry you both had to go through that.

[diamondlil]

Wow! Lucky for her you got her to the vet. Hopefully she'll be on the road to recovery and be healthy again soon

[MysticExotics]

Wow-I'm glad she's ok!

[DMong]

Very good Nanci!. I'm glad to hear that you took the snake in to a qualified vet for a proper diagnosis and correct prognosis. Flagellates can cause that very same swelled/inflamed sutuation too due to the protozoa's affect on the surrounding wall tissue. We address those very same things in our new Honduran Milksnake book due to come out very soon.

I'm sure the Panacur (Fenbendazole) treatment will clear things up in a heart-beat!

Did the vet do a 50-100 mg/kg as is the very standard/typical dosing?


~Doug

[Nanci]

I didn't ask the dosage. He's actually treated several snakes for various parasites for me, over the years- but mostly WC or previously live fed! I _will_ say that every single snake I have had checked for parasites has had them. My vet is REALLY into parasites- he was quite excited when my bearded dragon had two different types of coccidia...Cool- because he's always so excited he wants to show me!

[DMong]

I didn't ask the dosage. He's actually treated several snakes for various parasites for me, over the years- but mostly WC or previously live fed! I _will_ say that every single snake I have had checked for parasites has had them. My vet is REALLY into parasites- he was quite excited when my bearded dragon had two different types of coccidia...Cool- because he's always so excited he wants to show me!

Yeah, that's a great thing that your vet knows what he's doing and knows quite a bit about parasites. As we all know, too many vets know very little about reptile medicine at all....*sigh*


cheers, ~Doug

[loyalsissaly84]

Oh wow, I am glad to hear your gal is ok, but I have a question? Should reptiles be dewormed yearly, weather not if they have or if they dont have the parasites? Whats your idea on this?

[Nanci]

Get a fecal done for $20 and deworm if necessary.

[DMong]

Oh wow, I am glad to hear your gal is ok, but I have a question? Should reptiles be dewormed yearly, weather not if they have or if they dont have the parasites? Whats your idea on this?

Wild snakes or sickly looking snakes that the history isn't known at all it's a good idea to get Flagyl and Panacur treatment, but it is very normal and typical for most all snakes (even captive hatched) to later have some degree of worms in their system (often pinworms). The snakes healthy metabolism normally keeps them in check under normal conditions and decent husbandry unless something compromises their health......that is when things go down hill.

If all seems good and your snake is eating and pooping fine, I wouldn't bother to be quite honest.


cheers, ~Doug

[LMS68]

I was just thinking of this when we saw the vet on Tuesday. She had asked us to bring in a poo sample & I was wondering just how would I know if Martha had worms or even how to know if she did have some and should a snake be on a yearly deworming program like mammals are?

[LMS68]

Sorry... meant to write (in second part of question) how to know *what to look for* if she did have some...

[Nanci]

As Doug says, I don't think it's crucial to check regularly for parasites if your snake is in good health, but if you are taking one or a small number of snakes for annual exams anyway, then it doesn't hurt.

Probably most people don't take snakes to the vet if nothing is wrong. A couple reasons to do so would be so your vet can see the animal in its baseline state of good health, and so _you_ can see the vet and how s/he handles the snake and the kind of questions he asks and the advice he gives. If the vet knows you and the snake, you're more likely to get in for an emergency at the earliest opportunity.

[loyalsissaly84]

Thank you guys for the info. I was just curious and wanted to take precaution.

[nmoore601]

What's the best meds for treating parasites GI problems like regarding? I think I had a shipment of rodents that had thawed before I got em then the dealer refroze them. Causing major problems for me.

[DMong]

What's the best meds for treating parasites GI problems like regarding? I think I had a shipment of rodents that had thawed before I got em then the dealer refroze them. Causing major problems for me.

For intestinal/protozoa and bacterial problems, Flagyl (metronidazole) given at the rate of 50 mg/kg of body weight (another dose after 12-14 days) is standard practice.

For internal flukes/worms, Panacur (Fenbendazole) at the rate of 50-100 mg/kg of body weight (another dose or two every 10 days to kill entire life cycle) is standard.

Also, not enough belly surface warmth for thermoregulation can cause regurges too, especially in the colder winter months like we have. I have addressed MANY posts regarding this on several forums from people not allowing a warm spot on one far end of the enclosure to allow for proper digestion.

If internal bacteria is causing regurge problems, Flagyl will work wonders when it is called for. First make sure there is proper belly heat in the high 80's or so on one far end only and that it utilizes it, and also that the snake can get away to cooler temps into at least the 70's or better to lower their metabolic rate and conserve energy and body mass as they normally do. Then go from there. I definitely wouldn't be feeding real large meals either if this is a question, as that will easily open up regurge issues that you are trying to prevent.


~Doug

[nmoore601]

Just saw this post and it caught my eye. Just wanted a bit of knowledge for my own sake. I've always fed small mice, a few depending on the size of the snake. I do run 80's for a hot spot in my racks. Although depending on the position of the thermostat probe it will differ from the top to the bottom of the racks. I run run one helix DBS-1000 per rack. I will for now on have all new snakes stools sampled. Might run a random check just for precautionary. Like 10% maybe

[DMong]

Just saw this post and it caught my eye. Just wanted a bit of knowledge for my own sake. I've always fed small mice, a few depending on the size of the snake. I do run 80's for a hot spot in my racks. Although depending on the position of the thermostat probe it will differ from the top to the bottom of the racks. I run run one helix DBS-1000 per rack. I will for now on have all new snakes stools sampled. Might run a random check just for precautionary. Like 10% maybe


Yeah, the important thing is that they can seek cooler temps well below that after using the warm side for digestion. They will always want to lower their metabolism to conserve calories after being on the warmer side digesting the meal.


cheers, ~Doug

[nmoore601]

The vision racks with the appropriate tubs are large enough to allow them to choose there desired temps. In the summer here in the south I have a huge problem with forid flys. Especially once hatching starts. I fell they could spread parasites if any like wild fire. Do you have a remedy for those little devils? Once a hatchling emerges I try and rid the egg, to eliminate attracting them. But if they get started it's a nightmare.

I may be off topic about those, sorry of I am. I just wondered who gets those and how does everyone manage them?

:eatsmiley

[DMong]

The vision racks with the appropriate tubs are large enough to allow them to choose there desired temps. In the summer here in the south I have a huge problem with forid flys. Especially once hatching starts. I fell they could spread parasites if any like wild fire. Do you have a remedy for those little devils? Once a hatchling emerges I try and rid the egg, to eliminate attracting them. But if they get started it's a nightmare.

I may be off topic about those, sorry of I am. I just wondered who gets those and how does everyone manage them?

:eatsmiley

I do all my incubation inside the human dwelling of my place, or else it would propably be a nightmare for me too since I am in central Florida. It can be bad enough with cleaning all the snake poop in time before those little nasty's get going. I put up multiple strips of sticky fly paper and fly bait traps. Grain and feed supply stores have attractant traps too that work. I've head of the Apple Cider vinegar with a couple drops of fruit scented dish detergent too. That decreases the water's surface tension so their feet can no longer stay on the surface and drown in it.

The electric bug zappers might work well too, but I have never used them personally.


~Doug

[Nanci]

In the last two weeks the snake in question has had three meals: 1 hopper, 1 hopper, 2 hoppers. As of last night she was blue and felt gassy and hadn't pooped, at all. This morning, after I'd had her out last night for a weight, I found she had pooped after being returned to her viv.

Today she got her second dose of dewormer. She feels much less gassy, and is not distended. I am to continue the frequent feedings for a month, and recheck a fecal for parasites at that time.

[DMong]

In the last two weeks the snake in question has had three meals: 1 hopper, 1 hopper, 2 hoppers. As of last night she was blue and felt gassy and hadn't pooped, at all. This morning, after I'd had her out last night for a weight, I found she had pooped after being returned to her viv.

Today she got her second dose of dewormer. She feels much less gassy, and is not distended. I am to continue the frequent feedings for a month, and recheck a fecal for parasites at that time.


That's great to hear Nanci.

It would seem like it would have been great insurance to have it dosed with Flagyl too in my opinion, since all the necrotic worm remnants and the tissue inflamation they caused would be greatly helped by the soothing, healing affects of the antibiotic. It works incredibly well on intestinal bacteria and the inflamation it causes. It seems that it would help the process along even that much more. I wonder what your vet's opinion on this would be if you showed him.

A long while back, I was pretty much under the impression that metronidazole kills ALL gut bacteria, both bad AND good, but now I don't think this is likely the case from things I have read from DVM's more recently.

Here are some interesting things regarding it:

The only microorganisms Flagyl affects in the gut are Protozoa and such anaerobes as the Clostridia. The latter include C. botulinum, tetani, schottmuelleri (gas gangrene), and the increasingly deadly difficile. These do not contribute to the health of the gut. And they can flat kill their hosts. There a few dozen more genera of anaerobes, none of which you can't live without in your gut.

Flagyl belongs to a group of drugs known as imidazoles that as a group are somewhat more deadly to commensals than to their hosts. They are not drugs about which anyone with a high regard for the truth would say, "Well, it can't do any harm." Why they work only on anaerobes is interesting: in a reducing environment inside the organism, metronidazole yields hundreds of daughter products such as sulfanilamides that do a job on the organism. Another compound in this group. fenbendazole, has been found somewhat more effective against Giardia, even though the labeled use is as an antihelminithic drug (Panacur).

Here is what DVM Douglas Mader says about Flagyl -

Thought of as anti-protozoal agent but is also excellent anti-bacterial agent (anaerobes)
Metabolized by the liver, excreted by kidneys
Compromised liver necessitates lowering dose
Excellent penetration of tissues to target anaerobic bacteria


Anyway, glad to hear your snake is coming along much better now.


~Doug