Killing mice

[DustinWaller]

Hey guys my mom is awesome and lets me breed my own mice in my room and all that good stuff. I dont want to feed live mice to my snakes becouse of the risk of bites,scars,etc. I told my mom i didnt think i could kill the mouse by putting it in a baggy and slaming it on the countertop. She said well ya there is this thing where you put a cotton ball in a jar and a mouse in a ja and drop this one drop of liquid stuff(she couldnt member the name) and it kills the mouse in 1 second. She said she would go to the vet and ask what it is. But il get some more info when she comes home from work. Do you guys think this is a ood idea? i was thinking maybe the chem. can get in its lung and hurt the snake when it eats the mouse or somthing like that.

Dustin

[kenalotia]

That chemical might be chloroform, but I'm not totally sure. I don't know if it would linger in the mouse and cause any harm...

[HomeBreeder]

either way I would advise against chemical euthiasia(sp?).

You can get a canister of CO2 frrom a paintball store, then carefully fill a bag with the gas (it's heavier than air) then drop in the mice you want to kill - leave them in for a couple minutes, even though they're probably dead in 30 seconds or less.

This will be guaranteed harmless to your snake.

[Gregg]

Dry Ice is frozen CO2.

What I do, since I've gotten tired of killing, freezing, and then thawing out my pinkies, fuzzies, and mice, is ask for a plastic cricket bag, or two, at the pet store. They've stopped asking now, but every new sale-person has asked, "Aren't you going to feed them live?"

Anyway, I put the mice into a plastic cricket bag and squeeze out the air. I then close of the end with a few twists and a attach a rubberband. I do the same with adult mice, but I then place the bag they are in into another plastic bag, since they can eat throught the first, and then seal off the second bag as well.

I live about fifteen minutes away from the pet store that supplies me with my snake food and, by the time I reach home, the pinkies and the fuzzies are dead. The mice are almost out cold by then, but take a little longer.

I forget who it was, but someone on the forum here gave me the idea when they said they used a GladWare container to suffocate their snake food. One of the guys at the pet store said to blow into the bag, since we give off CO1, but trying that didn't work. The pinkies were alive thirty-minutes later. The air has to be gone, then they sufficate on their own lack of oxigen.

[Matt L]

That might have been me Gregg, I use a butter tub with a single hole in the top, and a small piece of dry ice--when the dry ice melts it pushes the oxygen out the top. Dead in 30 seconds or less. The C02 dissipates quickly in a oxygen rich enviroment, so there is no harm to the snake. I think this is the most humane, but I'm not above smacking them in the head, especially the ones that bite!

[nova]

another thing is if you have that appliance that sucks the air out of canisters for food storage. you could throw a bunch in and do that. kill them instantly and keep them for months/ years

[SilverTongue]

That is just creepy

[Celeste]

honestly people! i am beginning 2 think that some of u dont even hav hearts except when it comes 2 your snakes! i hav already discussed this issue on the post 'dead or alive'! matt what u said about smacking them on the head was cruel and downright (as already been said) creepy! could EVERYONE think a little more about the fate of the mice? (and simple suffocation through the use of plastic bags sounds very inhumane indeed - its already been said that it takes 15 mins 4 the adult mice 2 die! i urge u 2 chemically inject them or feed them alive, or at least freeze them...the appliance that sucks air out of canisters sounds much better than simple suffocation)

[Iris]

Actually CO2 sounds a lot more humane than freezing, bopping, or regular suffocation. I think it's instant so that's better than suffocation and freezing and I don't think the mice enjoy bopping at all.
I wouldn't chemically inject any mice that I feed to my snakes since you don't know what side effects can result from the chemicals.
Feed them alive? Well that sure sounds painless...who wouldn't want to be struck at and then strangled to death?
If Matt L wants to bop his mice who are you to condemn that as cruel and creepy? He is his own free person.
I think it's great that you are so into animal rights but I think it's unnecessary to express your opinion on mouse killing on every thread about mice.
One way or another the snakes will get their mice. It is your personal opinion about which way is better or more humane. I don't think a whole lot of people are going to change their methods just because you think and say it's wrong.
I apologize if I came across like I'm looking for a fight (which I'm not) but this is a public forum and I am expressing my opinion just like everybody else.

[kenalotia]

Well, really, this thread seems to be about finding the quickest, most humane way to kill mice for snakes. How does this suggest that people don't care about anything but their snakes? Or even that they don't care about mice? By the way, the bopping method ensures a very quick death, with only momentary pain. Sounds a lot better than live feeding to me, which can potentially cause lots of pain and injury to both parties involved.

And I think most of us want to stay away from chemical injection so we don't end up poisoning two animals by accident (first the mouse, then the snake that eats it).

[Celeste]

*sigh*Im sorry! im not looking 4 a fight either. the thing that ticked me off was the comment "but im not above hitting them over the head, especially the ones who bite" somehow that just creeped me out. it wasnt the bopping method i was trying to condemn - it was the suffocation. although bopping doesnt sound pleasent, it was, once again, the suffocation that bothered me. i never disagreed with CO2...in fact i think its better 4 the mice. it was the C02 and air-sucking canisters i was trying to uphold, not the bopping or the suffocation. (the only reason i mentioned feeding live was because its the natural way)

[Celeste]

okay. deep breaths *im just in "animal rights mode" thats all...im not this argumentative all the time i swear:)

[Celeste]

okay. deep breaths *im just in "animal rights mode" thats all...im not this argumentative all the time i swear:) it just really ticks me off is all, so if anyone gets annoyed by animal rights activists just tell me 2 shut up and ill try 2 calm down....

[SilverTongue]

DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU NOT TO EXPRESS YOUR FEELINGS! THAT IS YOUR RIGHT!

Then again do not expect anyone to change their habits to fit your feelings. that is their right.

If if were not for animal rights activists there would be no buffilo, whales, and wolves. There are about 100, 000 + species who could have used a animal rights activist or two a bit earlier.

Thanks to animal rights activists animals are not alloud to be harmed in movies anymore. Most movies made before the 60s died as a result of some silly azz stunt the director wanted in his movie. So dont ever knock your self or someone else who is an animal rights activist.

Remember arguing gets us nowhere. No one listenings to arguments.

Perhaps you (and mean any of you) can find a safer, painless and quicker death for these mice. That would sureley mean something.

That is just my 2cp worth :)

[Alicia]

Here is a site that may be able to answer your questions:
http://www.anapsid.org/prekill.html

Good luck with raising your own, I can't stand the smell of the mice so I use RodentPro.com:D

:) Alicia

[CornCrazy]

Originally posted by Celeste
i urge u 2 chemically inject them...

I work for a vet, and I strongly advise against chemical injection as a way to euthanize the mice! Let me use the example of rat/mouse poison...if a cat eats a mouse that died due to ingesting poison, then the cat is at risk of bleeding to death, too. That's what rat poison does...makes them bleed internally. Anyway, the same applies to any chemical euthanasia...you would be putting your snake at risk.

Also, I tried the freezing thing and it takes much longer than suffocation! I think dry ice is the best option, but anything that is quick will work!

[jim]

just a thought about carbon dioxide/carbon monoxide poisoning for the people who seem not to understand the process. first it is pretty much the same thing. CO¹ is an unstable compound and will readily bond with free oxygen molecules forming CO²---- breathe a mixture of this for long enough and you die. (don't sit in a running car in a closed garage) carbon monoxide poisoning is the same thing as carbon dioxide (dry ice) poisoning it just takes an extra step. the symptoms of CO² poisoning in humans are dry mouth, impaired judgement, euphoria, blurred vision, followed by unconsciousness and eventually death. it is not a painful thing- you get happy, then stupid, then fall asleep, then die. i ASSUME that this is pretty much the same for mice. i don't think the means for a quicker, more painless death than this are readily available without a lethal injection of some type of neurotoxin that i wouldn't want going down my snakes gullet. well,i'm off to work so have a good day/night everyone... :) ---jim

[pinatamonkey]

Originally posted by SilverTongue
If if were not for animal rights activists there would be no buffilo, whales, and wolves. There are about 100, 000 + species who could have used a animal rights activist or two a bit earlier.

Thanks to animal rights activists animals are not alloud to be harmed in movies anymore. Most movies made before the 60s died as a result of some silly azz stunt the director wanted in his movie. So dont ever knock your self or someone else who is an animal rights activist.


And it is animal rights activists that are campaigning to ban the keeping of reptiles and other pets. I much prefer animal welfare myself. There is a big difference between the two. I recommend reading this page. (http://naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/policy_intro.htm)

I think CO2 is the best method - especially if you have large numbers to "dispatch". The only animal that it might be OK just to freeze is newborn mouse pinks. They are so small it doesn't take long, but I still prefer CO2. With chemical injection you'd probably wind up killing your snake. :(

[DustinWaller]

Umm i have pet mice,and i have feelings for all animals. If i didnt have a heart for the mouse i wouldnt want to kill them the fastest way now would i. I could just starve them to death culdnt i.I mean if i didnt care about animals sure i could do that. Freezing is not good. It explodes the cells and its probly the most inhumane way to kill the mice. And celeste plz get your mind off of feeding live Just look at this link. If you want your snake to look like this go ahead,go rigt ahead and feed live. for some reason the link isnt workin on my net today. i hate viruses :p

http://www.redtailboa.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=383

Dustin

[SilverTongue]

the link doesnt work for me either :(

[Iris]

SilverTongue, I don't know if you were directing your post at me specifically, but you may have taken it the wrong way. I wasn't saying not to express one's feelings or opinions. I think that's a basic human right that everyone should have. I was just saying what I think.
I also specifically said that I wasn't looking for a fight. I'm sure all the others who posted on this thread also were just discussing the issue and not arguing. I didn't "knock" Celeste for being an animal rights activist at all.
Again...you may not have directed the post toward me at all, but I felt the need to defend (or clarify) what I said in case you were indeed directing it toward me.

[SilverTongue]

ohh hehe no problem. No i wasnt directing to anyone. I was just making some statements. I understand all the sides here. When i read a thread and i have an opinion on it i pull my soapbox out and start to jabbering. Nahh if i was directing it to anyone specifically i would say JOHN DOE SHUT THE %#@$$%# UP hehe. I was talking to everyone who would listen (read) :)

[Celeste]

thank u everyone 4 not being completely angry with me*sigh*its good 2 know that there r still sane people in the world. (one of my former friends was not 1 of them. she used 2 bash me completely 4 my views.) i went 2 all the links and did more reading and so far i think everyone is right - live feeding is cruel and chemical injection can be harmful 2 your snake...CO2 sounds the best. pinatamonkey there r diff levels of being an animal rights activist. i, for 1, hav not gone so far as 2 try and condemn the practice of keeping snakes, so try not 2 generalize. (i mean no offence 2 u of course:) anyways i have not yet started being angry with people 4 keeping pets - i just dont eat meat or wear leather. if anyone cares, my own view is that eventually all beings that breath and have life will have rights...it is unavoidable as far as i can tell. after all, years ago people would hav laughed at Martin Luther King J 4 caring as much as he did about his fellow blacks...and now all blacks hav rights. same with women. the only beings left 4 people 2 give rights 2 are members not of their own species.
also (if anyone cares and has had the patience 2 read this extremely long message) i highly recommend the book ANIMAL LIBERATION by Peter Singer. Dont anyone think that im trying 2 force my views, because im not:)


By ceasing to rear and kill animals for food, we can make so much extra food available for humans that, properly distributed, it would eliminate starvation and malnutrition from this planet. Animal Liberation is Human Liberation too. (Animal Liberation, Peter Singer)

[pinatamonkey]

Sorry for going so OT, but I'd be careful with that guy. That book you mentioned, "Animal Liberation", was the founding book for modern animal rights groups like PETA - and I sure hope you would have nothing to do with them! His views are so extreme that some people have called him the "most dangerous man in the world". I'm against needless suffering by anything, but I think he takes his views to the extreme.

In a book called Practical Ethics (Cambridge University Press, 1979), he'd written: "killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Very often it is not wrong at all."

He has suggested, for example, that parents who give birth to a hemophiliac might be better off killing it, especially if they could replace that dead infant with one who would be "likely to have a better life."

[Ares]

Its funny lately how on the forums everyone tells each other where
to go but then apologize at the end or try to make it seem like they're not arguing.

Anyways about the mice I say CO2 is the best way IMHO, but then
again does it really matter? they're all heading to my snakes stomach
anyway, they all meet the same fate one way or another. Since the
begining of time it's been survival of the fittest and I dont see it changing
any time soon.

[Celeste]

as a matter of fact i do support the PETA. it is the Animal Liberation Front that bombs buildings and such, not the PETA. the ALF is specifically designed 2 physically harm animal-hurters and i do not support them, but i do support the PETA and In Defense of Animals. and as 4 him being the most dangerous man in the world, i had no idea, but i think his arguments r very convincing. read his book and u will find out. maybe he has written other, less sane things??? if he has i was not aware of it til now...but i still believe in his book. and as 4 killing infants..i didnt know of that either. however in part of his book he argued that if scientists weren't willing 2 use a brain-damaged human in their experiment they hav no right 2 use animals. this argument is perfectly reliable and logical - since the brain-damaged human, in this case, is actually less intelligent than, say, a dog or a chimp,we should be obligated 2 use the less intelligent individual. many scientists argue that animals r so much less intelligent than we r that we should use them and not humans - well, in this instance their argument would turn back on them and they would be forced, if they follow their own advice, 2 experiment on the human. if they wont, they are being the very essence of specieism - "discriminating on one's species" which would be as wrong as showing racial or sex discrimination.

[Celeste]

oh yes - and Ares, if u had no choice but 2 kill a cherished pet, would u rather kill him painlessly or horrifically? painlessly?? so u see that it does matter how they die....if it were, say, your dog who was going 2 die, would'nt u rather kill him quickly? or, in your case, does it not matter because "he's going 2 die anyway"? not meaning 2 sound nasty, im just putting it in another perspective.


if anyone wonders why i hav the views i do, just go 2 this site:
http://sharkonline.org/

or, if u question what i think & want better answers than i can give, go here:
http://www.peta-online.org/fp/faq.html

[Gregg]

I am a Pantheist Pagan. To me, Everything is Divine. therefore, animals have rights as much as we do, but I would never send a penny to PETA. Why? Because they feel that NO animal, including snakes, should be kept as pets. Or as they put it: "...personal entertainment." Organiztions such as PETA and The Humane Society of the United States appear to be good programs--and for the most part they are--but they are extremist in their thoughts and proposals. PETA, especially, is more Anti-Human than it is Pro-Animal.

Somewhere, maybe on this forum, I saw a lot of information suporting what I am saying, but I cannot for the life of me remember where it was.

[God feeding God to God, because God is hungry and needs to eat. Therefore, since God is responsible for God, God takes God by the tail and smacks God against the side of the God (cage). He then places God into the God (cage), so God can eat. But, because God doesn't want God to get any God in His mouth that could hurt Him (e.g., substrate), God places God on a plastic God (e.g., plate).]

[pinatamonkey]

Celeste, you need to do more research into the organizations you are supporting. PETA donates money to the ALF. PETA is against all animal ownership. PETA supports violence. Here are a few quotes by their people. See what you think.

"It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just, road would be ending the concept of pet ownership." -Elliot Katz, President, In Defense of Animals, "In Defense of Animals," Spring 1997


"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation." - Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Just Like Us? Toward a Nation of Animal Rights" (symposium), Harper's, August 1988, p. 50.

“The bottom line is that people don't have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats ... If people want toys, they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind,"- Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), Animals, May/June 1993.

"The cat, like the dog, must disappear... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist."

"Even if animal tests produced a cure [for AIDS], 'we'd be against it.'" --Ingrid Newkirk, national director, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA), as quoted in Fred Barnes, "Politics," Vogue, September 1989, p. 542.

"Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause." -Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA

"Andrew Cunanan, because he got Versace to stop doing fur." -PETA's David Mathews reply when to Genre request for "Men We Love"

"I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down." -Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, National Animal Rights Convention '97, June 27, 1997

[SilverTongue]

umm you had me up until the god eating god thing... umm i am not slow witted or anything but that was messed up:confused:

as far as peta is concerned...They are both right and wrong. In my opinion. They are right in their idels of animal abuse and animal treatment. I believe animals should be freed from testing facilities.

I dont beleave that the domestic breed of animals should be wiped out because it goes back 1000s of years.

They at one point started with the right ideas and kinda took the road more easily traveled. violence, arson, even terrorism. That is no better then the people doing the harm to the animals in the first place..

We are not "god" We dont have to right to do the life for a life thing.

But on the other side of the coin. If it was my daughter that was being tested on and killed in these labs. It would take a god to stop me from returing the favor

[Celeste]

so i support MOST of PETA. i do hav extremist views as well, but once again i do not wish 2 abolish pet-keeping. i do understand their points concerning flesh-eating, lab experiments, leather-making, and the like. the next donation i send i assure u will be accompanied with a letter saying i wish the money 2 only go 2 certain causes but, i will still support them in many other matters. i happen 2 agree with some of those statements...if killing billions (and believe me, the numbers r that high) of dogs, rabbits, and mice would provide a cure 4 AIDs i would still felt cheated by my country and ashamed of my species. and, just 2 let everyone know, i did in fact do research before supporting them. again i support 95% of what PETA says, but not all. and no one can deny that there r 2 many cats and dogs..instead of continually breeding them we should make more of an effort 2 ADOPT. i hav already seen all those quotes. i still believe that animals r not ours 2 eat, experiment on, or wear, and i still highly recommend the book ANIMAL LIBERATION

to answer quotes with a quote:
"A most important and responsible work. Everyone ought to read it, and ponder deeply whether we do not need to change our view of the world and our responsibility toward its creatures."
-Richard Adams when reviewing ANIMAL LIBERATION

do u look back on slaves that broke the law 2 be free and say "good god....they should be jailed!"
no. u think "good for them"
as i happen 2 think about the PETA. it is the ALF that i do not support.

Habit. That is the final barrier that the Animal Liberation movement faces. Habit not only of diet but also of thought and language must be challenged and altered. (Peter Singer, ANIMAL LIBERATION)

"Fur used to turn heads, now it turns stomachs."
-Rue McClanahan

"You ask people why they have deer heads on the wall. They always say, 'Because it's such a beautiful animal.' There you go. I think my mother is beautiful, but I have photographs of her."
-Ellen DeGeneres

[Gregg]

I support your right to have and to express your own opinion, but please, please please, will you write it in a normal, good, writing style. Your point gets a little lost to me because I tire of trying to read what you are trying to say. I'm already finding myself skipping your posts because I simply do not want to take the time to try to piece it together. I would like to hear what you have to say, even though I may disagree with it. You have a right to be heard. I demand that you express yourself in a way so I won't ignore it. :(

[Iris]

Ok, I didn't want to say anything because I thought I might sound nitpicky but please use some punctuation and "2, 4, r..." It would only take a few extra minutes and it would help everyone understand what you are saying so much more.
I hope I didn't sound nitpicky...or like an English teacher...all my friends say that to me...

[pauljordanuk]

I've killed mice before by using the blunt end of a pencil. Get the mouse on a level surface, and place the pencil at the back of its head (neck area). Take hold of the tail of the mouse and give it one good firm pull. This will break the mouses kneck and kill it instantly.

[Missymonkey]

or you could run over it with your car, or drop it off a three story building, or feed it too much cholesterol and hope it gets a stroke, or make it watch the superbowl halftime with aerosmith and britney spears over and over and over and wait till its head explodes! j/k :)

[pauljordanuk]

Hmm, are you sarcastic, ignorant, both or dont care.

[Jimmy C.]

Oh Dustin,
That poor snake. I hope the original owner never forgets the suffering that the little went through.
I have never and will never feed live. I really hope that all the people who do take a long hard look at these photo's.
It was a horrible thing to see but thanks for passing it along.
Jimmy C.

[pipatic]

well that was alot of messages,for those that cannot kill the food item buy frozen,
dont gas unless your doing a big batch,
getting an untrained person to inject ,an animal what next vaccinate your own dogs and cats as well,without proper training i think that would be against the law in the uk,
animal protection hmmmm some good some bad,
which ever way you kill the mouse or rat etc make it quick,
......bang on head....

[Jr Nimeskern]

I breed my own mice and dont have the time to CO2 the mice or suff them... I either give them the bop or the neck break... either way is fast and very very very quick!!! If I was a mouse and I had to go I would take the bopping and the neck breaking over any suff... or slow death... wouldnt you???

[pipatic]

yup everytime its got to be the quickest way

[SilverTongue]

a few mor live mice feedings here :(

[SilverTongue]

:( :(

[Celeste]

Sorry. I didn't know my writing was THAT bad....:)Personally I can't understand how you can hunt; I would just look at a doe or a turkey or whoever and think about how alive and well he is and drop my gun right then and there...but that's just my opinion*sigh* I hope one-day the laws will change...but right now the only thing I can do is dream about animals having rights....On to the subject of cornsnakes(if I go on another rant about mice I'll bore everyone stupid) those pictures are awful!:(



If a robin redbreast in a cage
Puts all heaven in a rage
How feels heaven when
Dies the billionth battery hen?
-Spike Milligan(The Animal's Voice )


If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
-George Orwell

[kenalotia]

Unfortunately, in many areas it is almost necessary to hunt. For example, in the area I live in, there are tons of deer. None of their natural predators, such as wolves, are here anymore. Deer can multiply until they eat up all of their food supply - which is also the food supply for other animals. While I, for one, would not mind reintroducing wolves and other natural predators back into the area, this is a long, complex process and is often resisted by people who keep livestock. Unless you want huge amounts of deer who can eat up all the resources, eat up people's gardens, and get hit by cars in large numbers, you need hunters. In my opinion, it is better for the deer to die relatively quickly after being shot, and then go to feed people than for it to slowly starve or get hit by a car.

JMHO...

[CrazyCorn]

I have read all the messages and believe the easyest way to kill mice and rats is put them in a baggy and bang them,they dont explode or anything,sometimes they might bleed if you do it to hard but do just enough to harm or kill the mouse not slamming it just bang it,Hope this helps!

P.S It is easy and cheap to do it this way.

[Celeste]

I really don't want to turn this into an argument over deer, but I will say this: if we viewed deer the same way as people (and in my opinion, we ought to) then no one would be allowed to kill them and they would keep their own numbers down. How did the dinosaurs survive without people? Easy - they controlled their populations. It seems the only thing that humans manage to do when trying to help is mess things up more. If you look at it from a different approach, one could always argue that homo sapiens is vastly overpopulated, but you don't see us out there killing other humans because they destroy the environment, do you? That's just how I like to see it. If you think of it differently that's fine; just try to understand what I'm saying, because a lot of people (and I'm not saying this is anyone on this board; I'm mostly talking about animal abusers and slaughter-house workers etc.) are just too lazy to think of animals in their every-day lives.
Sorry about my explosion. (Didn't I say that I didn't want to rant anymore:confused: ) Since I have nothing to say that's actually about the topic of killing mice, I think I'll just be quiet now. Cheers to everyone.

Just some things I'd like everyone to know about hunting before I leave:

For every animal a hunter kills and recovers, at least two wounded animals die slowly and painfully of blood loss, infection or starvation, and those who don't die often suffer disabling injuries . (Ingrid Newkirk, Save The Animals)

While natural predators keep their prey species strong by killing only the sickest and weakest members, human pleasure hunters seek out and destroy the strongest and most fit; and by atificially reducing natural populations each year, hunters actually stimulate breeding and higher birth rates. (Same as above)

[Missymonkey]

I just wanted to add my two cents about this deer thing.
If the deer were left to naturaly keep their own numbers, many would die a painful slow death due to starvation and disease.
Hunters are given tags by the DNR which tell them which type of deer (doe/buck/yearling ect) they may harvest, this then limits the amount of bucks and does harvested each year, and manages the population all the more.
Hunters make a small impact on the deer popluation, each year before hunting season opens there are 1.65 million deer. Hunters in 2000 only harvested 618,274 deer. (bow and rifle seasons combined)
By harvesting animals we limit the spread of disease including bovine wasting disease which is the deer eqivalent of mad cow.
(http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/hunt/deer/ for more info, the DNR's site)

It really is a matter of opinion just like the mouse issue is, I personaly don't see the difference between some guy in a factory killing mice to ship frozen or me doing it on a smaller scale. If it was up to the snake in the wild the mouse would die a relativily fast death by suffocation or possibly by breaking it's neck. Most of us spare this work from our snake and either do it ourselves in a comperable way or let some guy (or girl) in a factory do it for us. The end result is always the same, dead mouse and a fed snake. The only difference is how we dispatch the mouse, and unless you are some sick Ed Gein or Jeffery Dahlmer you find the most pain-free and quick way to dispatch your mice, no one wants to see there mice suffer, however when you own a snake you take the responsability of feeding it, and we all know that snakes don't eat carrots or brussel sprouts:rolleyes:

[kenalotia]

Anyone who sets out to prove that human hunting causes more breeding in deer is going to have a very hard time. Yes, deer breed a lot. Yes, people hunt. That doesn't imply a causal relationship. And in the wild, most animals do NOT control their population naturally. They happily continue to breed, and their population will be controlled by hunters of one sort or another, or by starvation when they become too plentiful for their resources. Starvation is population control. And humans are natural predators. Humans have relied on meat as part of their diets throughout prehistory and history. It is possible for people in developed countries, in this period of time, to have a healthy balanced diet without any meat products, but for most peoples, in most periods of time, this was not true. We are designed to be omnivores. We are not artificial hunters.

Btw, dinosaurs, were often prey as well as predator. Some animals do control their numbers. In canine packs generally only one female and one male are allowed to breed. Other predators also have similar rules. As far as I know, no non-predators have rules like this. For those animals with few to no natural predators (and this includes humans) starvation and disease are the natural population controls. Since humans have vastly overpopulated the earth, do you think we should let starvation and disease take their toll to solve the problem, since this is what you suggest we do for deer?

[Missymonkey]

that was a good reply, very well put.

[pipatic]

LETS GET BACK CORNS,

[Celeste]

Umm, a lot of people ARE artificial predators - what do you call sport hunting? Or trapping? Those things are not natural. And before we get Pipatic mad, let's go to corns. (I'm not trying to be cowardly, I'm just saying that this is a corn snake forum. Yes, yes, I know, it was me who started this topic, but I didn't mean to start another fuede. Believe me, if I could I would talk all day and night about the problems of hunting and how animals should have rights.) Just out of curiousity, does anyone besides me think that male and female corns have very diff personalities? I've read that there is no difference temperment-wise, but I've met only a few corns and the males acted much more hyper and nippy, even when it wasn't the breeding time. Maybe the corns I met were just weird:confused: If anyone thought I was suggesting that we should infect people with disease or the like to lower our population, I'm sorry to give you that impression. On a closing note, I'd just like to remind everyone once again that before humans the Earth was just fine, not to say that we are evil or anything. I'm afraid I just don't get your point with hunting. I'd rather die of some natural cause than be shot, crippled, and wandering until I collapsed, but that's just IMHO. Please, no one attack me - I'm trying to resolve this argument now!!

[SilverTongue]

ohhhh...i.....feel.....soapbox....near......must.. ..resist...the....pull....

lets talk about corns :)

[Darin Chappell]

I would certainly like to know how it is that the person quoted could possible know that for EVERY animal taken by a hunter, another two are left to die a miserable wounded death in the bushes! I have been hunting for thirty years, and I have NEVER left an animal to die like that! Also, hunting artificially encourages the animals to breed more and have higher birth rates? That's just inane.

It seems to me that this has become something like what happens whenever those who have no children begin to lecture parents on "the best way to raise them." In my opinion, everyone who is rabidly for "animal rights" ought to do whatever they can to remove themselves from every comfort that is brought to them by way of animal usages. When they do, they will be so far removed from modern society that the rest of us will no longer be able to hear them. The whole thing is ridiculous, in my opinion.

As to killing your mice the best way, I have no real opinion. I buy mine frozen, but when I used to buy them live, I just whacked them on the counter. They never knew what hit them, and my snakes were safe.

[Celeste]

You are one person who hunts; they were taking a TOLL, meaning that the vast majority of hunters cripple 2 for 1. While you personally may not have injured many of your victims, thousands of others have. Oh and BTW, it isn't that hard to take away at least 90% of things that are cruel to animals - I don't eat meat, use products with animal lard in them; I buy free-range chicken eggs, and use only materials which were not tested on animals and say so. The only thing left to do is buy an electric car, which is not a relavant option since I can't drive. I don't use hair spray anymore (ozone layer) and I avidly recycle. I'm still finding new ways to reduce my use of animal-hurting products. I'm still alive, aren't I? It certainly doesn't hurt you to have a cruelty-free lifestyle, now does it? It only takes away some of your comforts (ex: eating meat) which, in this case, is actually debilitating to your health. And you cannot deny that it is unnatural for sport hunters to kill for pleasure!! Before humans were here (amazing, isn't it? Some people in this world, not accusing anyone here, seem to think that humans are the darling of the universe. To them, I say this: read Evolution by Charles Darwin. You'll find out that we ARE animals, no matter how much we try to hide it) animals did just fine on their own. Whaty we need to do is step back and let wildlife do just what the name implies: be wild. I ask you (and I know that this sounds extreme) to think like Gandhi (yes, he was an animal-rights activist) and respect all life.

I ask you to recognize that your attitudes to members of other species are a form of prejudice no less objectionable than prejudice about a person's race or sex.
-Animal Liberation, Singer


Send all the opposing messages you care to. I'm not offended and neither should you be; I love a discussion that involves a truly absorbing topic. I dearly hope that no one is taking this personally. I also hope that, at some point, this thing can be over so that we can get back to corn talk.:) (Not to say that I don't like this; it isn't often I get to express all my thoughts like this, which you can probably tell by my horrifically long posts:)

[Colleen]

Oh my goodness, Dustin I bet you never thought that your simple question about using a chemical to kill your mice would lead to this!!! I already told you that I would be concerned about the effect that the chem. would have on your snake.

Now I have been reading all of this for DAYS now and going well to hold my tongue as I don't think this is the proper place to discuss most of the opinions posted in this thread. Having said that my short 2 cents..............
1 I am very for animal rights but the jokes on anyone that thinks we can just pull out and nature will restore it self! WE have already destroyed too many of the natural preditors that GOD put here to control population.

2 Celeste to you I say(very nicely) read this: The Holy Bible which will set the record straight about evolution and who has rule over whom. Although I agree with alot of what you have said we do not live in an ideal world so our ideals must be at the least practical or noone will listen!


Peace all
Colleen:)

[Rich Z]

The killing of mice for snake food is one thing, but bending the topic to include the killing of any animals for any reason is stretching the limits to what I have designed this message board for.

Just for the record, my personal belief is that the cost of your freedom is that YOU have to accept and tolerate the freedom of other people to do things you may not particularly like. I am not a hunter, but I have to shoot varmints (squirrels - aka tree rats) that are destructive to my property. No one is likely to have an unbreakable personal policy to NEVER kill absolutely anything. It's just a matter of where you draw the line, starting from pathogenic microbes up to human beings. Put your line somewhere in between or at either end. It depends on the circumstances you find yourself in. Most people will kill life threatening or even comfort threatening microbes. A black widow spider crawling across the rug in the family room will likely see the wrong end of a shoe. Many people will kill for food or have someone else kill for them. Others will kill for the sport of it. A few, in defense of their lives or the lives of loved ones will kill for self defense, and not hesitate one bit if they are defending themselves from another human being.

The argument about hunting is rather pointless. What happens to the populations of herbivores when they have uncontrolled population growth? Just let them do that? What will be the results of that program? Prior to man's interference, there were natural predators that kept the populations in check. In most cases, these animals no longer exist in most of their native ranges. Why? Because some people got upset when their small children occasionally would vanish when the wolves or cougars visited unexpectedly. Some of the predators found small humans much easier prey than tackling something that fights back much harder. Are you advocating a return to those days? If your small child was being stalked by a couple of wolves, would you not do everything necessary to protect your child, including killing the wolves? Or would that be a suitable sacrifice? Which would be more cruel? Allowing the wolves to take your child, allowing he or she to be killed and eaten, or fighting back with whatever tools necessary to save your child, even if it means killing the wolves? What happens when you only have two choices and either one means something must die because of your choice?

As mentioned above, I have had to (and undoubtedly will in the future) kill varmints that are destructive to my property. Do I enjoy doing it? No, I do not. Is it cruel? Depends on your perspective, I guess. Cruelty is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly the varmints would rather have their way rather than me having mine in the situation. But I am certainly not inclined to ask them to join me in a vote on the issue, with all of us having an equal say in the matter.

I have also been known to kill fire ants, swatted mosquitoes and flies, flushed ticks down the toilet, stomped on roaches (known as palmetto bugs in these parts) and sent more mice to the promised land than most people would ever believe. Is that cruel? I'm sure they all weren't happy about it, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

And yes, I am a meat eater. It's not because I am cruel, but because I LIKE to eat meat. The mechanics of getting the meat from being an animal to being food on my table is irrelevant to me. If someone else would not provide me the means to do so, then I would do whatever is necessary to provide the meat myself for my table.

[SilverTongue]

Umm sorry I have to ask, but where did you come about this information about wolves. I compleatly agree about everything you said but that. I hate to say this, but the stuff you just said about wolves is as much BC as the ruhmers going around about snakes. I dont appreaciate it. I have researched wolves. I have reasearched snakes. Please dont share false or mislead information unless you can show proof. I am sorry and I dont mean to be rude, but it is only fair. We expect people to be better understanding and educated about Herps. We must also return the favor about other animals.

sorry for any mis spellings

[SilverTongue]

for more information good and bad about wolves check here and other website like it please.

http://www.bitterroot.net/wild/

Putting Risk Into Perspective
- Forest Service email reported 1992 figures on the wildlife hazards afield. Topping the list of animal-caused human deaths were deer, racking up 131 for the year. Except in movies, sharks took only one human, bees 43, and rattlesnakes ten.
- You are more likely to be killed by a coconut falling on your head than by a shark (therefore we absolutely oppose the introduction of coconut trees to Montana!)
- From 1989-94 there were 109 fatal dog attacks in the U.S.
- Children crushed to death by televisions since 1990: 2
- An average of 100 people per year choke to death on ballpoint pens.


In the next year:


- You have a 1 in 2 million chance of dying from falling out of bed.
- You have a 1 in 2 million chance of being killed by an animal.


Lifetime risks:

1 in 3 chance that you'll die of heart disease.
1 in 5 chance that you'll die of cancer.
1 in 45 chance that you'll die in an auto accident.
1 in 72 chance that you'll deliberately kill yourself.
1 in 700,000 chance that you'll be killed by a dog.


So if society deems wolves expendable due to the threat they pose to human safety, it only stands to reason that ballpoint pens, televisions, cars, and dogs should be eliminated also.

[pipatic]

corns ,corns ,corns ,corns, corns,corns,corns,corns and guess what more corns
now i ve got your attention last night while on this CORN FORUM,
3 of my 16 normal but het for amel were hatching,got some pic and will post when developed..thought i would share that with you all lol

[SilverTongue]

Gratzzzz!

[CornCrazy]

Originally posted by SilverTongue
I hate to say this, but the stuff you just said about wolves is as much BC as the rumors going around about snakes.
Silvertongue...Rich was just giving an example. If wolves, cougars, coyotes, etc. were left to roam freely in heavily human populated areas, they <b>WOULD</b> and <b>HAVE</b> preyed on humans as a food source. Rich was simply saying that almost anyone would choose to kill the wolf instead of their own child. This was just an <i>example</i> of killing out of necessity, in my opinion! I certainly would do whatever I could to save my child if I was in that situation!

As for eating meat...it IS a natural thing for humans to hunt for food. Is it cruel for a tiger to kill an antelope? It's natural for one animal to eat another. Why should a tiger have more rights than humans? Now don't get me wrong...I do NOT believe in killing for sport, fashion, etc. I also do not believe in cruelty to animals...thus I won't knowingly eat veal, for example. It's cruel to keep a calf in a box so it can't move or exercise it's muscles...just to have tender meat. I do not believe anyone here is saying it is OK to be <b><i>unnecessarily</i></b> cruel to animals.

Well, that's all I have to say!

[kenalotia]

This will be my last post on this topic, I promise, unless someone asks me a direct question. But I agree with SilverTongue about the wolf issue. I have also done research here. Wolves on this continent are terrified of humans. This is not a recent development; they have been terrified of humans for a few hundred years, at least. This fear extends to anything that smells human, including children. What really ticked people off about wolves was that they came unexpectedly and carried off livestock - sheep or calves that resembled wolves natural prey. That and fear, mainly from all those fairy tales that portray wolves as evil animals that love to kill humans.

[Missymonkey]

Now a days wolf attacks are far and few, however it has occured in the past, I found this on a web site,

Noted naturalists documented wolf attacks on humans. John James Audubon of whom the Audubon Society is named, reported an attack involving 2 Negroes. He records that the men were traveling through a part of Kentucky near the Ohio border in winter. Due to the wild animals in the area the men carried axes on the shoulders as a precaution. While traveling through a heavily forested area, they were attacked by a pack of wolves. Using their axes, they attempted to fight off the wolves. Both men were knocked to the ground and severely wounded. One man was killed. The other dropped his ax and escaped up a tree. There he spent the night. The next morning the man climbed down from the tree. The bones of his friend lay scattered in the snow. Three wolves lay dead. He gathered up the axes and returned home with news of the event. This incident occurred about 1830. (Audubon, J.J.. and Bachman,J,: The Quadrupeds of North America. 3 volumes. New York, 1851 - 1854)

Of course wolf attacks are going to be far and few today because wolves are scared shot less of us, they aren't dumb, however back in the pioneering days wolves were king of the land and hadn't had the experiances they have had in the last two centuries with us killing them and all, I am not a specialist in wolves, but I have taken woldlife management classes, wolves are dangerous and if I lived in wolf country I wouldn't let my children play out of sight...

[Celeste]

Torn...must talk about something else...but I can't just let it go! But this is a corn forum! What to do:confused:
Okay, I have to say something. Meat is not, in any way, necessary for human health. Humans used to be, before they became hunters, herbivores in every way. Therefore one could argue that we are supposed to be vegetarians. Besides, comparing a tiger to a human is ludicrous - a tiger NEEDS to eat meat, or he'll die. But humans...they can very easily live without it. (In fact, it's actually more healthy for you to not eat meat.) As for the wolf issue...yes, they are terrified of people. And yes, if a ceratin situation happened MANY YEARS AGO in which I had to choose a wolf over my child...I would move. It would be innaceptable to value one human over a pack of wolves, but I would still cherish and adore my child. However, in that case I would almost understand the killing of the alpha wolf, meaning that the pack would move elsewhere. Today, however, that same situation would be wrong - because there is such a thing as relocation. Besides, there are many out there who interpret the words "and have dominion over the creatures" in the Bible as saying "take care of them." If you really believe in religion you would believe that we should behave as perfectly as we can, to strive to behave like Adam and Eve before they sinned. And Adam and Eve were vegetarians before they sinned! When God says "dominion" it could mean "ruling" or it could mean "care and love." After all, Elizabeth had dominion over her subjects, but she doesn't eat them, wear them or poison them, does she?
Glad to have gotten that out. But I still want to return to corns...conflicting interests...

[Celeste]

As an afterthought, we, IMHO, had no right to wipe out nearly the entire SPECIES. Come on, 30 people die while out in the woods, so we kill THOUSANDS of them? HUNDREDS of thousands? I can see if you wanted to hunt down and kill the wolves who attacked the people, but come on. An entire, and very vital, type of animal wiped out for killing a hundred people every 10 years???
(And if you wish to see who you eat when consuming your daily flesh meal, go here: http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/archive/slaughter.html I urge everyone to go here and check it out.)

Oh, and Congratulations Pipatic!! :D

[Missymonkey]

People killed wolves for more than one reason, and IMHO, if killing a wolf means some on doesn't die, (and leave a family without a father, brother, son ect...) then I would kill the wolf, yes today there are other options to killing and duh I would go with those if possible, but to me a wolf is not equal to a human, and humans don't just kill wolves, we are also trying to repair the damage that we have done to their numbers

[Celeste]

Why? Why should a wolf be worth less than a human? Isn't that simple discrimination, like racism or sexism (not meaning to be offensive - I'm trying to prove a point, not insult anyone)? Once again, you could move. The wolves wouldn't die and the family members wouldn't die either. I'm not implying that we should stop all building projects, I'm saying that we should have some self control. As for re-introducing..yes, it is very good that we finally came to our senses and realized that we must repair the damage we have done.

[DustinWaller]

Umm guys i asked a question hehe I guess rich is going to have to make a non corn section of the forum. I mean i didnt ask for the story of life lol but i asked how to kill mice,im sure rich dosnt like us bringing up this stuff on the forum becouse its for Corn snakes. So can we plz drop the subject and not post any more on this subject,thx.

[Celeste]

Okay. Sorry. (There's no telling how long I'll keep going once I get on a rant, as my mother tells me:) Anyways I don't remember what the conclusion was on the mouse-killing...I think that it was "CO2 is most humane, chemical injections can be harmful to the snake's health, and freezing is a big:confused:, because we've had people say that it puts you in some serious pain, but then we've had others claim that it puts you to sleep first, which would be definately kinder than some other ways....As for bopping, well, I geuss it depends on how hard you do it. If you do it right it's quick and supposedly painless, but if not you end up putting the victim in unbearable misery. So take your pick I geuss:)

[Rich Z]

Yeah, I guess I may have to make up a General BS forum where I can move threads like this. But for now I find it interesting to see how other peoples' minds work.


It would be innaceptable to value one human over a pack of wolves, but I would still cherish and adore my child

Am I reading this right, Celeste, that you would sacrifice your own child rather than do whatever was necessary to save it?

So Celeste, here's the scenario: I happen to be walking down the path in the woods with my rifle slung over my shoulder and as I turn the bend, I see you standing there admiring some flowers with your back turned to the trail. I also see a fully mature wolf, a little gaunt, so he is definitely hungry, about to spring at you with the obvious intent to kill and eat you. I believe I have just enough time to get off a shot, because shouting to warn you would not affect the outcome that is imminent. Should I act to kill the wolf, placing a higher value on your human life, than that of the wolf's, or not?

[Celeste]

Shoot AT the wolf. There is no wolf in the world that will not run away from a shot - if he is not scared, then he most likely has rabies, in which case it would be acceptable to kill him. And you are forgetting that last part of my sentence while you interpret what I am saying - that I would still wish to love and protect my child. I never said that I would be willing to sacrifice my baby; no parent would. I am simply saying that to put the life of the child so far ahead of the lives of many different beings is being biased, as any parent would be in that situation. I would move away, as I have stated. I could not bare to kill the pack, and I most certainly could not let my child be in danger. If I moved, the pack would be left alone, I could warn other people not to move there, and my child would be happy and safe, since young children often hate to see any creature die.

[CornCrazy]

To be able to just pack up and move is not an option that many of us have. I personally work my tail off to simply make it from week to week. I would not be able to just move.

By the way, God put us above other animals...He made us in His image...so I definitely value human life over the life of other animals. That doesn't mean that I don't value the life of animals. It simply means if I have to save one or the other...I would choose to save a human life.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate and respect the way you feel. I don't condemn you for it, but at the same time...you have no right to condemn anyone else for their beliefs on this matter. As Rich said, the cost of your freedom is that YOU have to accept and tolerate the freedom of other people to do things you may not particularly like." You basically have to agree to disagree...That's not to say that you can't try to change other people's minds. However, be aware that one of the hardest ways to change someone's mind is by condemning that person.

[Celeste]

I don't wish to condemn or put anyone down...I wish to put things in another perspective. I agree with what you say, but at the same time I can't help but think: if slave-owners had never been...shall we say "corrected", the practices they did would still be done today. Unless someone stands up and says what they believe (and, in the case of the slaves, say it forcefully) nothing will change. But the right to "agree to disagree" seems very reasonable....Once again I seem to have torn interests...I think it's time for me to go and muse over some things. (And, not that it matters, but my snake, Angel, is raising her body out of my lap to stare at the computer screen...I wonder what she would say if she could read about all this. It would be interesting if our snakes could talk, wouldn't it? I wonder if the meaner corns would say nasty, rude things, and the docile ones would say kind words...)

[abell82]

Rich IMHO shoot me right square in the noggin' so I don't feel the wolf attack!Crazy sure! I have just stumbled upon this thread and must say that everyone here is CRAZY in there own way!To here all of this talk about the bible I would just like to say this.The bible (depending upon which bible you refer to)has been written and rewritten so many times through out history (by different kings and conquerers of the lands),(What easier way to control an unruly population?) that it is hard to know excactly what the real meaning was.As for killing man over wolf think about it like this: Which one has the POTENTIAL to screw up the environment the most?How many kids will that human produce (2,3,5?) that will further screw the environment?The wolf will kill a few animals for food.It will not produce chemicals to artificially raise food and polute the environment with manure spills that poison the waters and kill things for miles.Course now some would say there is always a flip side to every coin and what if this person was destined to have a child that would find a cure for aids?Do I value human life?Sure, but I try to value all life.If it came down to a man or a wolf?Sorry, guy!Man has to have a natural preditor(because he is too stupid to control himself) if it is not another animal then it will have to be disease.This has been my opinion(8).

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Rich Z

So Celeste, here's the scenario: I happen to be walking down the path in the woods with my rifle slung over my shoulder and as I turn the bend, I see you standing there admiring some flowers with your back turned to the trail. I also see a fully mature wolf, a little gaunt, so he is definitely hungry, about to spring at you with the obvious intent to kill and eat you. I believe I have just enough time to get off a shot, because shouting to warn you would not affect the outcome that is imminent. Should I act to kill the wolf, placing a higher value on your human life, than that of the wolf's, or not?

Well, if it was me, I would shoot Celeste, because the wolf is obviously hungry and has been unable to fend for itself. Make the shot good, so she won't feel it coming. The wolf, panicked by the shot, will run off; but, eventually, it will return to gain some nurishment. If we are to support that which needs our support, then the starving wolf would win out over a plump, well fed vegetarian.

:p

Now, smack the mouse and give it to the snake.

[Celeste]

I'm all up for feeding the wolf too, but I think I'd rather help him find a nice big herd of caribou rather than die, but then again that's just me:) (If I made anyone think that I like animals BETTER than people, I'm sorry. I think that they should be treated more or less like our equals.) But hey, if you want to feed him, feel free to do so - just let me help out!

[Matt L]

Originally posted by Gregg

Now, smack the mouse and give it to the snake.

Amen!

[SilverTongue]

OMG Gregg that was funny!!!!:D

[Ken Harbart]

Sorry to stray back off track for a moment, but I just had to touch on the animal rights debate briefly.

John Singer- a nutcase and a half. Whereas he asserts that the practical use of animals is morally wrong, he has also gone on record to say that human infanticide is okay if the baby is disabled. Of course, he set a time limit for this- 28 days. So, if after 28 days you aren't completely satisfied...

He has also gone on record to say that bestiality is perfectly okay, as long as it's "consensual"- "Hey there beautiful, what's a nice poodle like you doing in a pound like this?"

PETA- a quasi-terrorist organization. Not only has PETA funded domestic terrorism, they also participate in, and openly condone it. They have likened the acts of ALF to such legitimate causes as the Underground Railroad.

PETA also partakes in some utterly tasteless campaigns, such as mocking those with cancer (re: their milk moustache ads).

Of course, there is a hypocritical side to PETA. I particularly like this quote:

"I'm an insulin-dependent diabetic.
Twice a day I take synthetically
manufactured insulin that still contains
some animal products--and I have no
qualms about it." Sweetland adds,
"I don't see myself as a hypocrite.
I need my life to fight for the rights
of animals." -Mary Beth Sweetland,
PETA

One last thing about PETA, one of their founding premises was to totally abolish the keeping of animals as pets, along with the gradual extinction of the domestic cat & dog by attrition.


It was said early in the thread that credited animal rights activists with saving the buffulo, whale, etc, and revamping the laws regarding the use of animals in movies. This is false. Credit for these acts goes to the animal welfare movement.

The animal welfare movement has been around for centuries, whereas the animal rights concept is a radical offshoot of animal welfare, and is relatively new. The premise of animal welfare is to prevent suffering and cruely to animals. The premise of animal rights is to end all "exploitation" of animals, including pets and zoos. Interestingly, several species would now be extinct if it organizations such as PETA achieved their goals.

[jim]

COW IS YUMMY!!!
^THAT IS THE ONLY JUSTIFICATION I NEED IN ORDER TO BE A CARNIVORE/OMNIVORE. contrary to your stated opinion celeste humans (homo sapiens) have always depended on meat as part of their diet. (and even further back in prehistory including but not limited to cro-magnon man, neanderthal, homo erectus, etc.) the higher primates, as a general rule, are opportunistic feeders that will eat whatever is presently available. species which rely on a more varied diet have a greater chance at survival than a species which is hampered by strict dietary needs. (ie. koalas live strictly on eucalyptus leaves and would become extinct if there was a blight which killed all eucalyptus) the fruits of evolution will always be to the species that is more flexible in a changing environment. that is why lions are thriving and cheetahs are dying as an example.
that is why i believe it WAS important for early humans to be omnivores. humans no longer adapt to their environment but rather adapt their environment to suit their needs. (probably the best evolutionary adaptation of all)
next on my list is that i don't believe killing is wrong.... yes, that is exactly what i said, there is nothing wrong with killing another creature (including if both necessary and unavoidable, a human). what is more important is the motivation behind the killing and this is what determines the moral implications of the killing. (shooting a dog that is attacking a human is much different morally than torturing a cat to death for pleasure)
also i believe that different species can have a different value placed on their lives. my wife's life has a higher value than the life of my neighbor's dog, which is in turn more highly valued than a rabbit or a stalk of broccoli or all the way down the line to a unicellular protozoan which has almost no value whatsoever to me.
for what its worth i think rich was right in that most of this is just an arbitrary line that everyone must draw for themselves. as everyone of us is different we will ultimately draw our line in a different place whether we are right or wrong and the only "person" qualified to pass judgement on whether you are right or wrong is/could be/might be god whoever/whatever/however you perceive him/her/it/them to be....
SO GO AHEAD DUSTIN AND GAS, WHACK, SUFFOCATE, FREEZE OR OTHERWISE DISPATCH YOUR MICE IN WHATEVER MANNER YOU DEEM APPROPRIATE......enough ramblings from me... have a good one everyone... :) ---jim
p.s. rich if you ever see a wolf drooling at the sight of my backside while i am bent over admiring some pansies... SHOOT IT PLEASE, then we'll discuss the moral implications of your actions... ;)

[jim]

shoot the wolf not my rump if that was at all unclear rich..... ;)

[kenalotia]

Just a quick note on human evolution and meat-eating. I was an anthropology major at Cornell, and although I did not concentrate in the evolution/primatology area of it, I did take a few classes. So: chimpanzees, the nearest living relatives of humans, collectively hunt and eat meat. I'm not just talking about insects, but they hunt and eat small mammals, including monkeys. They are primarily herbiverous - probably because plant food is easier to obtain. But the fact that chimps do hunt and eat meat indicates that most likely our common ancestor (which occurs well before homo erectus) also hunted and ate meat on a small scale.

[SilverTongue]

CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS!CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! CORNS! :)

[Bippy]

Mmm... I feel like jumping into this discussion... :) Nothing like beating a dead horse :)


I have no qualms with people being vegitarians, I also have no qualms with people going out and hunting animals in general.

I do not approve of the hunting of endangered or threatened species, though hunting species which would otherwise become overpopulated is fine with me.

What bugs me is not so much people who do any of these things, but people that are so overzealous about their beliefs on these matters that they're willing to beat you to death with their arguements (however sound or unsound they may be) in order to get you to change you rmind, because of course their way is the only right way. :P


That having been said, humans are indeed omnivorous. Whether you believe the bible or follow the theory of evolution, there is no evidence to suggest people started out not eating meat. In fact, there's evidence which suggests the opposite in both cases.



I have a sister who has threatened to kidnap and raise up herself any live mice I tried to bring home to feed my snakes. She's utterly disgusted with the thought that those things are in my freezer. But, so long as I don't make a big fuss about it and my feeding the snakes mice isn't brought to her attention, she ignores the issue. She doesn't go looking around for references to people prekilling mice to try and argue them out of it.

My suggestion is that if the idea bothers you, perhaps you should avoid reading threads on that topic. I'm pretty sure the title of this thread isn't cryptic. :)

Then, you can do whatever you like with your mice, and we'll do whatever we like with ours.

-Bippy

[jim]

i say let the mice decide their own fate by a show of paws... LIVE FREE AND EAT CHEESE, DEATH BY WHACKING, SUFFOCATION, OR FREEZING. .......all votes will be taken into consideration by the present management... :) ---jim

[snakemanone]

Hiya all.

I place the mouse in a plastic bag,dunk the bag in water but not completely just enough to sqeeze the air out,seal the bag and freeze,the mice are dead in a matter of seconds,its quick, clean and very humane, i have a slaughtermans liscence and worked in a slaughterhouse for 3 years so i know a bit about how animals suffer believe me this is the best method i have found,apart from buying them ready frozen.

[gekko1]

sounds bad but i usually just buy a dozen and freeze them alive.

[Ken Harbart]

That actually is bad gekko. Freezing is a very painful and prolonged death. In humans, exposure to cold is used to test pain thresholds.

Awhile back, the AMVA convened a panel to look into various methods of euthanizing rodents that are to be used as feeders. Their findings were that gassing with high cincentrations of CO2 and cervical dislocation were the two most humane methods. It was asserted that freezing, drowning, asphyxiation, etc, are not humane.

That being said, I want to correct something that was posted earlier in this thread about the mechanism of death in CO poisoning... CO does not bond with oxygen to form CO2. That combination would yield carbonate, which is CO3. Recall if you will, that oxygen is a diatomic molecule, and is rarely found existing as a single atom.

When carbon monoxide enters the blood, it attaches to hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin. Once altered, the hemoglobin is no longer able to transport oxygen.

Carbon monoxide, such as that from a car exhaust is totally unsuitable for euthanizing feeder rodents. CO is only one of several little nasties present in car exhaust, and many toxins would be passed on to the snake.

[jim]

carboxyhemoglobin.... hmmm i'll have to remember that. thanks for the correction. i think that was my mistake you fixed. have a good one... :) ---jim

[little twiglet]

just bash them over the head and be done with it!

i have no sympathy with mice!! HA HA HA HA HA:D

[dartguy]

My opinion is that if I had to worry about every rodent that was being eaten by every snake (wild or otherwise) I would never have time for my snakes-Everone who is going to own a snake needs to contemplate BEFORE purchase what they MUST do to keep that animal healthy-I LOVE ALL animals-mice are some very cute animals-when I was younger I used to keep one as a pet-however snakes eat mice, they also eat fish-they wiggle and squirm to get away - are we worried about them? they are living creatures no? what about the crickets I feed my chameleons? do they have fear or pain? they kick and fight to escape- where do we draw the line with our captive friends the if they were in the wild would be eating live animals (lizards frog or whatever else they could find)

So I feel there is no harm in replicating nature. For those of you that feel a little better by prekilling or buying frozen that is great. I hate to think of the terror a mouse might feel (forget the pain) when he is in the grips of a snakes jaws.

I have kept corn snakes since 1992 and usually feed live- I have tried freezing ,thumped, and prekilled frozen-

Lets face it mice are on the bottom of the food chain to be eaten. Why else would they only have 28 days gestation and pump out 10-15 babies and become sexually mature around 3 weeks (i think)

Lets get over how you or I feed our snakes and enjoy the awesome colors and patterns of the animal that brought us to this site in the beginning-we shouldn't divide ourselves by feeding methods-remember what we have in common

but thats just my opinion, I could be wrong............LOL

[bmm]

The best part is that all of this wasted space and time writing and in the end no one learned anything about WHACKING MICE.

I cannot even believe some of you continued this ridiculous discussion. No one will EVER agree on these topics you have brought up on a CORNSNAKE forum.

And on that note, whacking mice os no worse than any other method. IF you do it correctly. It's INSTANT. Any death that is instantanous (sp) is alright in my book. Period.

Like Gregg said, whack the damn mouse and fed it to your snake.

If you are willing to keep a snake in a cage then you should be willing to whack a mouse. Period. I hope more cornsnake information will turn up here.
But I doubt it.

bmm

[snakemanone]

can someone PLEASE bury this post we will NEVER agree and we all have our own methods
:mad:





..........................STEVE:mad: :mad:

[Ken Harbart]

Two months later, and this thread is still alive? Just to add to it for a moment, and briefly steer it onto a different tangent...

Feeding dead prey is no less natural than feeding live prey (many wild snakes will also scavange on carrion, if the opportunity presents itself), and greatly reduces the risk of injury to the snake. Forget about the mouse for a moment- my primary concern is the well-being of my snakes. I prefer my snakes to be free of the physical scars and psychological phobias that are often the result of rodent bites. Even my cobras are fed frozen/thawed rodents, when practical, to avoid the damage from bites and reduce the transmission of parasites.

[dartguy]

but..........I do blame the spoon :confused:

LOL

[danz]

GEEEZ....I just could not read through more than four pages of this. How about just Feed the dang Snake. That's right, JUST FEED IT. Let the snake starve whilst the debate rages on.....smack it, gas it, drop it off a building, drown it, freeze it, who cares. Just feed the snake. It is part of your responsibilty of caring for that snake. It is a mouse after all. What's next, human rights for flies and cockroaches? Crickets?

Personally, I think there is more of a problem with Human Rights in this world than problems with Rodent Rights. But that is another story...

[danz]

Sorry, above there was a call to bury this thread....I wouldnt have posted. Anyway byebye....never mine me.

[Ken Harbart]

Just feed the snake. It is part of your responsibilty of caring for that snake.
It can also be argued that there is a responsibility to ensure that the prey animal dies a reasonably humane death. This would eliminate freezing, drowning, or asphyxiation.

It is a mouse after all. What's next, human rights for flies and cockroaches? Crickets?
Using that same train of thought, rattlesnake roundups or the average redneck beheading a corn with a shovel can be rationalized. After all, they're just snakes, after all.

Also, it is not a matter of applying human rights to animals (for all but a leftist fringe anyways). It is a matter of animal welfare, which is an entirely different concept.

[dartguy]

I like to smash the feet of my mice with a hammer so they cant walk to the food dish-then when they have starved to death they can be fed safely to my snake

[danz]

Hi. Me again.

You're first argument doesn't make sense with me. My snakes kill their "live mouse" (I'll not call a mouse thrown into the tank "prey". Prey, to me, means that it was hunted or stalked, as it (the snake) would in its own natural habitat) in all sorts of gloriously graphical ways. Constricting while underwater, eyesballs popping out, blood pouring from the mouth area, swallowing backwards, etc....

I give them their "food" the Natural way...Live. And under my close supervision. Personally I do not feel comfortable "whacking" a small mammal in a bag. But I may have to in the future. I accept that possibility. Because it would be MY FAULT if I left that rat in the tank...to chew and naw on a snake.

My statement "It is a mouse after all. What's next, human rights for flies and cockroaches? Crickets?" I back up. Anyone who ever watches the News or pays close attention to the "efficiency" of our government knows that there is a "special interest group" or "sub-commitee" for every dam thing under the sun. Rattlesnake roundup people and the wild red-necks will always be able to "rationalize" their "ways and means". Of course that doesn't mean that any rationale is moral. I'll just have to trust my own feelings. What does my heart tell me?

I do agree with you though Ken, overall. Its just that....a debate about how to feed your snake on a Cornsnake forum, well, may seem kind of silly. But its not actually. We humans each see and hear and feel diffent ways. For one member to tell another to smack the mouse in a bag is silly. Or it very well could be a better idea? Who knows....It's up to YOU and I just hope some people don't need a "movement" to help them in this decision

I'll just clarify my original point:

You have a pet snake.
It eats mice.
Feed it.

(God forbid any debate over my diet!)

[Matt L]

dart guy,
call me slightly confused--my confusion lies with your comment about Kens quote about the spoon and hammering your mouses feet. I just want to know if you prefer to be shot or have your feet smashed with a hammer? Just exactly which comment needs the LOL?

[dartguy]

hehehe...........

[Mare]

Well, I must say that this thread, while aggrevating for some, provided me with some interesting insight into fellow members...

I was a bit taken back by some comments... ie people who state an opinion or belief as if it were FACT... but that is par for the course for any debate where strong feelings are involved.

I, myself, have an innate love for just about every critter that walks, crawls, swims, flys, oozes, slithers, creeps... you get the idea. I don't even kill that proverbial Black Widow spider that is crawling across the floor of the kitchen. I might put it in a jar for a couple days, feed it a cricket or a fly, then put it outside. When I buy feeder mice, the guys I get them from know that I have to have "generic mice" 'cause if it's "cute", its probably going to soon be named Lucky and go to live in the tank with Lucky #1, #2 and #3... But, the mice that I buy were bred to feed reptiles. I figure I am helping them fulfill their destiny (ha!) by feeding them to my snakes. I feel a personal responsibility not to be cruel to them. I don't torture them. But, I have NO QUALMS whatsoever with whacking them good and hard against the desk before I feed them to my snake. It's quick and I would hope less painful than a lingering death being slowly suffocated by one of my snakes. I will admit that in my heart of hearts (a big admission here and revealing of my nature), I say a little "thank you" to each mouse before I whack it, but I whack it none the less.

So, I could go on, but I won't. Just wanted to cast my vote as a "whacker" or bonker or whatever...

Cheers!

[danz]

uh-heh-heh-uhhheheeee..........You said "whacker". Heh! Heh!


Just kiddin'.

(pleasegoddontletmecomebackasamousepleasegoddontle tmecomebackasamousepleasegoddontletmecomebackasamo usepleasegoddontletmecomebackasamousepleasegoddont letmecomebackasamousepleasegoddontletmecomebackasa mousepleasegoddontletmecomebackasamousepleasegoddo ntletmecomebackasamousepleasegoddontletmecomebacka samousepleasegoddontletmecomebackasamousepleasegod dontletmecomebackasamousepleasegoddontletmecomebac kasamouseandifidomakemespottedandsocute...)

Of course I could say that that was my opinion and at least that fact was fact. And that's my opinion.

Give Lucky a wink for me!

Mare I'm not making fun of you, its just that I'm getting a little wired here...The little "thank you" to each mouse part, I understand.

[dartguy]

love the spotted and cute part...didnt notice it the first time I read it tho-very funny

[Angelina]

WOW...I just stumbled upon this thread. I think I'm gonna have nightmares about all those mice. "8 million ways to die" (mouse edition). I have a Boa and she kills her own mice. I am FINALLY getting a corn soon, but I did not realize all the "rules" behind killing mice. But at least now I'll know how to kill one if I ever feel the need to:p

[danz]

Well I figured this thread was good for something. Incidently, I bought a bunch of mice tonight. 1 adult mouse, 4 hoppers, AND.......one male and two females for breeding. So hopefully Ill have a bunch of mice to help out with the food bill.

All my snakes killed and ate their mouse at about the same time. Now they are crawling around looking at me wondering what the hell I'm doing and wondering why I'm not feeding them my breeders. SO, I can tell you these snakes were COMPLETELY HAPPY to kill and eat they're plump little dinner packages themselves.


If you break it you buy it, then you kill it you eat it.

[Angelina]

so you can give them live food? Everyone seems to think otherwise, but I think if the snakes are supervised, it would be fine. I always hang around when my boa is eating.:eek:

[danz]

Oh absolutely fed live and DEFINITELY supervised.

[Angelina]

its funny, I can watch her kill the mice, but I can't bear the thought of doing it myself! :eek:

[danz]

I'm the same way. I'd feel slightly guilty and I just wouldn't like that....sounds weird doesn't it? Why not let the snake do what it does as if it was outside of captivity? To me there is no argument, but this is just my opinion (standard dislaimer).

[Iris]

not this thread again...hehe
well the reason I've decided that I don't want to feed live is because something happened once to scare me for good.
I was feeding the one of the class corns a live adult mouse and she struck and constricted but the mouse's head was free and it chomped down and ripped open her skin. It happened so fast that I couldn't do anything to prevent it so I just stood it shocked horror and then I stupidly put my finger on the mouse's mouth to block it from biting the snake again. So then it bit me but not hard enough to draw blood or anything (I think being squeezed to death reduces one's biting strength..;)). Gave me quite a scare.
So anyway, that snake had to be taken to the vet, but luckily she's all right. I hate to think what would have happened if that mouse bit her on the head or eye.
So basically I feed f/t to my own snakes or I ask the pet store guys to kill the mouse for me. I feel bad killing the mouse myself.

[danz]

Well NOW you done it Iris...Just when I thought I made up my mind about something YOU come in and change it!! ;)

Just kiddin', Iris you have an excellent point. Yesterday I bought a bunch of mice and the ones I am keeping for breeding are MEAN!! They are like little bastards or something.

[Iris]

haha
Well normally I would have been really forceful in my reply but I've found that a little moderation keeps a lot of fights from occurring so I try to be nicer and just talk about my own opinions. :)
The snake ended up with a scar, but I ended up with a new opinion!
I always thought mice were cute little things, but that one sure frightened me. I guess it was pretty scared, you know, being slowly and painfully killed and all. heheh..:rolleyes:

[haya]

I personally like beating the mice around until they die. It is a good way to get my anger out. then i don't get mad a my snakes when they bite me, and besides no one is right or wrong in this matter. My mom hates snakes and my brother hates mice. so in that note have a nice day.

[Angelina]

no wonder your snakes bite you....

[Iris]

Anger management classes, anyone?

[Neil]

Ideally you should hit the mouse once really hard so it dies instantly.

[Spookshow baby]

I find it cruel to feed live food to the snakes. In Finland (where I'm originally from) it is considered as animal cruelty.
Also killing the mice/rats/guinea pigs/rabbits/lizards/chicks..etc what ever you feed your snake, is more likely a pain in the a## for a person who cares about the both sides.
I thought the cottonball -thingy was the best, IF it does not cause any damage to the snake. If it does, then it's out of question. I don't kill the rats myself (cannot, don't have the heart) I buy them frozen from a petshop. The company that I order them from is specialized in breeding food for reptiles and I trust they kill the rats quickly enough. I never buy a rat that seems to have suffered at the time of death.

But the reason I write here is that think also what you feed the animal before you kill it. Most pet stores have no idea of what they really should feed the mice and rats with and they don't provide much of a nutrition to your snake either. Your snake is what you feed it. So pay attention to what you food animals eat! You will see the difference in your snake!

And to the note: "why not to let the snake to do what it does naturally.." -Because a terrarium is not where the snake lives in the nature. In the nature both parts have the chance of drawing back and surviving, in the terrarium the space is limited so they are forced to fight to the death. If the terrarium happens to be larger size it only gives the mouse time to run away and hide which is only stressfull to it. Imagine yourself in there..
I could carry on forever, but my hands are freezing (public places are unheated..hrmph..)and giving me the hardest time to type..

Love your snakes and even you don't love the food, try to be humane with them.. =)

[Swe_Corn]

i think its important to not make the animal suffer , the easiest way of putting them out is to take them in a plastic bag and *smack* them on a hard surface, they dont even notice what will happend and there is another easy way iof u got the guts, take a grab with yoour thumb over the neck ande the finger next tothe thumb under the throat (dont know what that finger is called in english) nad grab the tail with the other hand and make a quick pull in each direction , that will snap the neck ver quickly...takes practice though.....and if you don think thats a good way then take a baseball bat and smack them away :grin01: hehe

[daytona]

I've received bad comments about this in the past. I just wrap them in tin foil like a big joint. Put them in a Tupperware container and freeze them alive.

It's painless! think of the last time you had a snowball fight and almost got frostbite. It doesn't hurt until you start to thaw out.

I feed my Corn Snake 5" long rats and they are easy to handle. Be carefull with the mice though they like to bite.

Eric

[Plissken]

Not trying to rain on your parades guys, but this thread has been dead for 5 years... ;)

[BMueller777]

I didn't even realize the dates of the posts, I was just reading the text.

But is C02 (dry ice) a good was to humanely kill the mice?

[beachbumchick546]

i fed my albino corn snake a mouse on wednesday. it is smaller than what she usually eats. this morning i woke up and she was laying in her water dish. i took a closer look and there was blood all over her tank, on the glass and everywhere in the bedding. she would not move, we tried moving her with a stick and she didnt move. the mouse is still alive, has no blood on it. I get a phone call from my mom, the mouse drug my snake under her leg thing. and it tearing her apart. so my advice is dont feed your snake live mice.
-kendra

[medusacoils]

This thread has that Old Thread Smell! :-puke02:

This is one OLD Thread!! LOL!

Wayne

[coxy1130]

There are soo many methods of euthanasia out there and there is a lot of documentation on the euthanising of small mammals. I agree though, that blunt force trauma is by far the most humane way of doing this. The animal has a few milliseconds to panic before it is dead, if it even manages that and as long as you do it right it will be dead instantly, another method would be breaking the neck.

There are a lot of ways you could do this with gasses but all the studies that I have looked at (not many but still a good sample) said that a minority sample exhibited panic and suffering and this is the most inhumane thing of all.

By using these physical methods, you are taking the animals death into your own hands and it is much more humane and respectful to ensure a quick and painless death as possible. Letting an animal suffocate, whilst effective may not be the right path to take if you want to be humane and ensure a lack of discomfort to the animal.

As for injection... well I really cant see a lot of up sides to that. The animal is going to be a bit peeved by the fact that you just stabbed it with a needle and then you risk poisoning your snake as well... seriously?????

I don't think that some people are taking this seriously, what may be easier for you is not necessarily in the best interest of the animal and if thats whats important to you then you either need to step up to the plate and get your hands dirty or you need to switch to f/t. Otherwise do whatever the hell you want. I'm not here to judge people on how they euthanise their food, its up to you and as long as your doing it with respect then I really don't see an issue with any of them. At the end of the day it's necessary if you want to breed your own food and as long as the animal is dead with minimal suffering for the method you choose I don't see that anybody has the right to question you.

[wade]

This thread is so old and out of date. Follow this link to something more current.

Euthanization (http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83060)

[LBoz]

i fed my albino corn snake a mouse on wednesday. it is smaller than what she usually eats. this morning i woke up and she was laying in her water dish. i took a closer look and there was blood all over her tank, on the glass and everywhere in the bedding. she would not move, we tried moving her with a stick and she didnt move. the mouse is still alive, has no blood on it. I get a phone call from my mom, the mouse drug my snake under her leg thing. and it tearing her apart. so my advice is dont feed your snake live mice.
-kendra
Kendra, you've learned a painful yet valuable lesson. All joking aside, you'll find that the majority of reptile keepers do not condone feeding live for the exact reason you've stated. I hope your snake recovers well...and Welcome to CS.com!

[daytona]

I used to freeze them alive. More humane than feeding them live or stabbing them in the head with an awl or pick. Freezing is a painless way to die. Yet I was given grief here when I posted it last. I was told PITA or the USHS might be monitoring this site.

My five year old Corn started to refuse frozen/thawed rats a year ago. All he would eat were thawed mice. Too expensive as I had to feed him three.

I now make a trip to the pet store each week to get a nice size rat and feed it live. No problems. He nails them within a minute of putting the feeder in the viv. So far so good. He's not been bit. If by chance he would not be interested, I'd remove the live rat but he just nails 'em like right now. If he gets bit, well, that's a snakes life for you. That's the way they eat.

[daytona]

I just scrolled up and saw my old post from March 2007. This is an old thread.

[Cflaguy]

but I will respond anyway.

I lways have a murder rock within reach for those who like live food. A fresh killed still twitching rodent is just as good as a live one.:crazy01:

[rraabbiitt]

Dry Ice is frozen CO2.

What I do, since I've gotten tired of killing, freezing, and then thawing out my pinkies, fuzzies, and mice, is ask for a plastic cricket bag, or two, at the pet store. They've stopped asking now, but every new sale-person has asked, "Aren't you going to feed them live?"

Anyway, I put the mice into a plastic cricket bag and squeeze out the air. I then close of the end with a few twists and a attach a rubberband. I do the same with adult mice, but I then place the bag they are in into another plastic bag, since they can eat throught the first, and then seal off the second bag as well.

I live about fifteen minutes away from the pet store that supplies me with my snake food and, by the time I reach home, the pinkies and the fuzzies are dead. The mice are almost out cold by then, but take a little longer.

I forget who it was, but someone on the forum here gave me the idea when they said they used a GladWare container to suffocate their snake food. One of the guys at the pet store said to blow into the bag, since we give off CO1, but trying that didn't work. The pinkies were alive thirty-minutes later. The air has to be gone, then they sufficate on their own lack of oxigen.

jesus you sound really bad at euthanizing. You're making it sound way harder than it really is.

I would suggest a hammer considering that's pretty much instant, but it's hard to control the pressure and can cause posterior trauma.

[daytona]

I would suggest a hammer considering that's pretty much instant, but it's hard to control the pressure and can cause posterior trauma.

Only if you hit the wrong end.

[rraabbiitt]

wrong end of the hammer or the skull? :noevil:

[LawDog1]

Only if you hit the wrong end.

It took about a second, but then it dawned on me! Good one Daytona.

Posterior trauma = if you hit the wrong end! Lol. I love it.

In all seriousness, co2 chambers take all the air away and the mouse suffocates, whats the difference between that and putting them in a plastic bag?

Jimmy

[starsevol]

It took about a second, but then it dawned on me! Good one Daytona.

Posterior trauma = if you hit the wrong end! Lol. I love it.

In all seriousness, co2 chambers take all the air away and the mouse suffocates, whats the difference between that and putting them in a plastic bag?

Jimmy

Because the CO2 knocks the adults out first, and they die while unconscious. They aren't in pain or afraid and go in their sleep.

Your way is just horrific....

[Chip]

In all seriousness, co2 chambers take all the air away and the mouse suffocates, whats the difference between that and putting them in a plastic bag?

Speed and efficiency? I dunno, using CO2 isn't very hard to watch. They gasp and seem to go into a bit of distress, but I'd imagine being vacuum sealed in a plastic bag would much worse. Mostly because they are restrained while dying, but in a slower fashion than a snake's constriction. I'd go with cervical dislocation if I was out of CO2 (with mice, not rats).

[LawDog1]

Starsevol, I am not trying to start an arguement, but I do want to point out that I never condoned or said that I kill mice by restricting them in a plastic bag. I was just curious what the is, and I still am curious. I'll explain the ay I see it in a second.
Also, I was not talking about restraining them with rubber bands, someone else said that.

My question is this: CO2 works by taking the place of the o2. As the co2 level increases the oxygen decreases and the mice pass out and then die painlessly. If a mouse were in a sealed plastic bag it would breathe in the oxygn and exhale co2, slowly adding co2 to the plastic bag. When the mouse started to run low on oxygen wouldn't it pass out just like in a co2 chamber?

Whats the difference between you adding co2 in a chamber and the mouse adding co2 by breathing? That is my question.

Maybe there is a point I'm just not getting. someone explain it. I'm not trying to start arguements about the best way to kill a mouse. I dont have a problem whacking it on the head with a butter knife and tossing it to the snake while it twitches. The mouse is still warm and moving and can not hurt the snake.

Thanks in advance for the insight,
Jimmy

[rraabbiitt]

LawDog, there's a huge difference between suffocation and actual CO2 poisoning.

Sure it ends the same way, but suffocation is a longer process. Suffocation without added CO2 causes suffering. CO2 poisoning is almost instant if done properly.

[rraabbiitt]

oh and one more thing to add to that.

There's no proper way to suffocate something, so that's why it draws out the suffering a bit more. Not always much, but there's easier/faster ways than using two plastic bags and a rubber band as the previous person mentioned.

How would you like it if some one bought you at the store and put you in a bag and hopped you were dead by the time you got home form the store?(as the previous person mentioned) I'd rather be hit in the head and go brain dead before I suffocate to death.

[LawDog1]

Please tell me you are joking. How would I like to be tied in a plastic bag? For that matter, how would I like to be snake food? Not much, and I assume you would say the same, but you do feed your snakes don't you? As for co2 being instant, what a joke. The whole idea is to do it slowly so the mouse falls asleep. How is that instant? Also, if a mouse were in a sealed bag, not vacuumed not with rubber bands, what do you think it exhales? Let me tell you, CO2. When he runs out of oxygen, what's left? CO2! Why do you have to introduce co2, he produces it? When the mouse breathes in the co2, after using the oxygen, is he not going to get the same "co2 poisoning" he would get in a chamber?
For the record, I don't just let mice suffocate in zip lock bags, not that I need to explain that to anyone. I was looking for an educated answer to my question, not flames from a PETA band wagoner who does not have facts to back up what they say.
If someone has facts or experience and can explain why or how a chamber is more humane than breathing their own co2, I would really appreciate it.
Jimmy

[wade]

OK Jimmy, I’ll explain it to you. When you put a mouse in a plastic bag waiting for it to consume the oxygen it will go through a period of oxygen starvation. It could last 10 or 15 minutes, which would be an eternity when you can’t catch your breath. You would very slowly suffocate.

When you place a mouse in a CO2 chamber, and then add the gas, the oxygen is displaced by the CO2 in a matter of seconds. The mouse is not breathing oxygen poor air but straight CO2. This causes the mouse to slip into a state of narcosis. Within seconds the mouse looses all conscious thought. There is no suffering.

This is not just my opinion, this is the method excepted by the scientific community. The only other method that has been approved is cervical dislocation.

All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.

[starsevol]

^^^^^^
What HE said!

[daytona]

All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.

I'd love to see the court proceedings for my use of a mouse trap in the garage. What's next, animal cruelty for feeding live rats to my snake?

If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead. :sobstory:

[starsevol]

I'd love to see the court proceedings for my use of a mouse trap in the garage. What's next, animal cruelty for feeding live rats to my snake?

If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead. :sobstory:

Well, considering the damage a live rat can inflict on a snake, and the danger involved for the snake, and considering that rats are HIGHLY social and intelligent (as intelligent as dogs in fact), I would call feeding a snake live rats horrible husbandry AND cruelty for BOTH the snake and the rat.

Killing an animal, ANY animal "any way you please", without a concern for the animal suffering IS cruel. It is possible to keep snakes, while actually HAVING a conscience, and causing as little suffering as possible.

Unless, of course, your very reason for having a snake in the first place it that it gives you "license" to torture animals, because that's REALLY what you get off on....

[daytona]

Unless, of course, your very reason for having a snake in the first place it that it gives you "license" to torture animals, because that's REALLY what you get off on....

I guess that's the real reason people own dogs and cats too. I always wondered about that :sobstory:

I love the smell of a used mouse trap in the morning. It smells like VICTORY! :laugh:

Just how do you feel about hunters then? :uzi:

Lighten up guy, It's all fun. :dancer:

Oh, BTW, All my Corn Snake will eat are live rats. He stopped eating frozen/thawed about a year ago. He does just fine with live ones. He nails them as soon as I put them in his viv. On the rare occasion that he does not, I save it for the next day. He has never been bit and I don't have to worry about going through the agony of killing someone, uh, something. They are called RATS for a reason. "They are no-good dirty rats". "You dirty rat, you shot my brother in the back".

All rats do is warn us of impending ship wrecks and keep our Corn Snakes' bellies full. Oh don't forget keeping us supplied with plague causing fleas.

I REPEAT, "If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead."

[starsevol]

I guess that's the real reason people own dogs and cats too. I always wondered about that :sobstory:

I love the smell of a used mouse trap in the morning. It smells like VICTORY! :laugh:

Just how do you feel about hunters then? :uzi:

Lighten up guy, It's all fun. :dancer:

Oh, BTW, All my Corn Snake will eat are live rats. He stopped eating frozen/thawed about a year ago. He does just fine with live ones. He nails them as soon as I put them in his viv. On the rare occasion that he does not, I save it for the next day. He has never been bit and I don't have to worry about going through the agony of killing someone, uh, something. They are called RATS for a reason. "They are no-good dirty rats". "You dirty rat, you shot my brother in the back".

All rats do is warn us of impending ship wrecks and keep our Corn Snakes' bellies full. Oh don't forget keeping us supplied with plague causing fleas.

I REPEAT, "If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead."

AS far as I know, dogs and cats are PETS. They are not expected to kill their own food, and people don't keep them because they get off on torturing rodents. Most people here keep snakes as PETS too and won't knowingly put them in harm's way.

Um, just say that when your snake loses an eye, or worse. Or at least use MICE. Mice are less fatty, much more appropriately sized food for cornsnakes and much less dangerous to feed live.

Your husbandry practices prove you are fairly ignorant when it comes to snakes. You are also fairly ignorant when it comes to rats.
To date, rats have SAVED more human life than just about any other animal! What do you think LIFE-SAVING drugs are tested on (because they are physiologically so close to humans)? Someone you love may owe their life to a rat.

There is also a species of rat trained to locate undetinated landmines in war-torn countries. They save human life and limb everyday.

That's not even going into what incredible pets rats make. So, yes, I understand they are food for other things. But if you don't use them HUMANELY and with RESPECT, many of us "real" snakekeepers will just consider you a sack of cruel monsterous trash.

[wade]

Beth, you are obviously dealing with an infantile troll here. Don’t waste your time responding to his dribble.

Beth, you posted right on top of me.

[Buzzard]

I agree Wade we left high school how long ago......

On the lighter side ...

Rats in minefeild.

There he is lower left...No wait thats just a rock

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x147/Buzz4401/explosion.png

[starsevol]

Beth, you posted right on top of me.

OK, I admit it...
I'm very happily married...but you are so adorable...sometimes a girl's just GOTTA post on top of ya!

[wade]

You're going to get us in trouble.

[starsevol]

:D...........

[daytona]

Beth, you are obviously dealing with an infantile troll here. Don’t waste your time responding to his dribble.


So serious? It was all a joke. "I'm not a Troll" (with Nixon accent).

[rraabbiitt]

Please tell me you are joking. How would I like to be tied in a plastic bag? For that matter, how would I like to be snake food? Not much, and I assume you would say the same, but you do feed your snakes don't you? As for co2 being instant, what a joke. The whole idea is to do it slowly so the mouse falls asleep. How is that instant? Also, if a mouse were in a sealed bag, not vacuumed not with rubber bands, what do you think it exhales? Let me tell you, CO2. When he runs out of oxygen, what's left? CO2! Why do you have to introduce co2, he produces it? When the mouse breathes in the co2, after using the oxygen, is he not going to get the same "co2 poisoning" he would get in a chamber?
For the record, I don't just let mice suffocate in zip lock bags, not that I need to explain that to anyone. I was looking for an educated answer to my question, not flames from a PETA band wagoner who does not have facts to back up what they say.
If someone has facts or experience and can explain why or how a chamber is more humane than breathing their own co2, I would really appreciate it.
Jimmy

Why would I need scientific proof for such a basic concept? It's common sense to know that suffocating in any way takes longer than CO2 poisoning.

Maybe you should read up about CO2 poisoning, it's a lot more complex than you think and if done properly it's A LOT different than suffocating.

OK Jimmy, I’ll explain it to you. When you put a mouse in a plastic bag waiting for it to consume the oxygen it will go through a period of oxygen starvation. It could last 10 or 15 minutes, which would be an eternity when you can’t catch your breath. You would very slowly suffocate.

When you place a mouse in a CO2 chamber, and then add the gas, the oxygen is displaced by the CO2 in a matter of seconds. The mouse is not breathing oxygen poor air but straight CO2. This causes the mouse to slip into a state of narcosis. Within seconds the mouse looses all conscious thought. There is no suffering.

This is not just my opinion, this is the method excepted by the scientific community. The only other method that has been approved is cervical dislocation.

All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.

Wow, ing thank you. I didn't think it was going to take that much explanation..... :uhoh:

[rraabbiitt]

alright here we go...

http://ko.cwru.edu/services/musfrming.html

What are the acceptable methods of euthanasia?
Mice are narcotized by CO2 inhalation and then euthanized by cervical dislocation. Although CO2 alone can euthanize the animals, it must be ascertained if the animals have died (see the NIH guidelines on the use of CO2 alone), thus cervical dislocation is recommended after the use of CO2. CO2 must be delivered from a tank, not from dry ice. The ARC provides tanks and chambers. Let the gas flow for 1 minute to fill the chamber and leave the chamber closed for 5 minutes. The narcotization of mice is rapid, so do not leave the chamber unattended. Death should be ensured by cervical dislocation. In the different facilities at CWRU, mice can be left on the racks in a designated room to be euthanized by ARC staff. The mice must not be overcrowded, and must have sufficient food and water to last through working hours of the next working day. If unweaned pups are left without their mother, the ARC must be notified immediately so that euthanasia may be performed without delay.

CO2 for euthanasia is cheap, convenient, effective and poses little risk for staff and investigators, but the humaneness of its use is increasingly debated. An alternative method of euthanasia is to anesthetize the mice with isoflurane before cervical dislocation. In a chemical fume hood (i.e. an explosion-proof hood vented to the outside), put a cap-full of isoflurane on tissues in the bottom of a small chamber (an empty plastic pipet tip box for euthanizing single mice), place the mouse inside and close the chamber. When the mouse is immobile, open the chamber and perform cervical dislocation. Be aware that isoflurane is a health hazard, and exposure to personnel should be avoided by confining use to chemical fume hoods and anesthesia apparatus and by proper storage.

Mice may be euthanized by cervical dislocation without anesthesia by experienced, competent individuals, if scientifically justified. The IACUC may require demonstration of proficiency in cervical dislocation. Cervical dislocation is performed by picking up the mouse by the base of the tail. The mouse is allowed to grip the bars of a transversely oriented cage top and while pulling gently backwards by the tail, the base of the skull is firmly gripped between thumb and index finger. To ensure humane euthanasia, cervical dislocation should be learned under supervision of a qualified individual.

What are the acceptable methods of euthanasia for fetal and newborn mice?
Newborn mice can be narcotized in a small plastic bag with CO2 from a gas cylinder, the bag is sealed, then the mice are euthanized by placing in a freezer. Complete CWRU IACUC regulations and recommendations on acceptable methods of euthanasia of fetal mice (over 14 days of gestation), newborn mice and young mice are available here.

[rraabbiitt]

here's a good post I found here from a long time ago..

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16536

In any case, if you don't want to set up a CO2 chamber, how about a mini CO2 chamber and use dry ice? Put the ice in a small container with holes in the top or top of the sides. Add warm water to get the CO2 rolling, place this at the bottom of a container, put the mice down in the fog, wait a couple minutes. CO2 is heavier than air, so a lid really isn't necessary, and you don't want it air tight with CO2 letoff from dry ice..... They will succumb to high CO2 levels in their blood and quit breathing pretty rapidly. The are unconscious within a minute or less.

[PikaBun]

A comment on the CO2 method. I have seen this done on 4 lbs rabbits and it really does make them happy and stupid before they fall asleep and die peacefully. They were all males, but one was so happy he just had to hump another male till he passed out. Rabbits are awesome.