OMG - Snake seizure or ???

[kc261]

One of our snakes has totally freaked me out. Short short version:
I picked him up in the process of cleaning his tub, he struggled & flailed around like crazy, pooped on me, and then his body tensed up TOTALLY into a kinked mess. I thought he had died. Then I saw he was still moving a little, so I set him down, and he started to loosen up. He was back to normal within about 5 minutes.

A little background. This little guy is a '12 that I got at a show about 6 weeks ago. He is pretty small for his age. He was thrown in with another snake I purchased. Basically after the transaction was finished and I was about to walk away from the table, the vendor asked if I would like a "special needs snake" for free. I inquired for more details about the "special needs" and was told something about him getting too excited at times such as feeding time, flipping over, and playing dead. I guess this is what the vendor was talking about, although I would have described it differently. Until this episode yesterday, I haven't seen anything at all unusual about this snake other than that he takes a really, really long time to swallow his pinkies compared to other baby corns I've had experience with (about 7 others over the past 3 years). Oh, and he poops a lot. Usually about 3 times per pinkie.

Here are a couple of crappy cell phone pics, but they are good enough to give you an idea. The first is maybe a minute after the seizure or whatever it was, and he is already starting to loosen up, so he looked even worse. I was too freaked to think of snapping a pic at first:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg295/kc261/Fin%20-%20special%20needs%20snake/Kinked.jpg

5 minutes after the above pic, and he's pretty much back to normal:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg295/kc261/Fin%20-%20special%20needs%20snake/5minslater.jpg

10 minutes after the first pic. He's stretched out a little more which makes it easier to see that all the kinks are gone. His head is a little triangled, not at all normal for this guy who is typically a total sweetheart, so I think he was upset by the experience:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg295/kc261/Fin%20-%20special%20needs%20snake/10minslater-3.jpg

BTW, he has no substrate and a dirty cage because I was in the process of cleaning his tub. He was hiding under his newspaper when I opened the bin, so I'd already taken that out, and when I went to lift him out is when this thing happened.

Has anyone experienced anything like this? What causes it? What should I do for him? Should I be concerned about this being contagious? (He's still in QT, but with some other new acquisitions.) Any & all info & suggestions welcomed.

[hikisquid]

Hmmm....is it possible that it's related to the stargazer issues? It really seems like this poor little guy has a neurological condition. :(

[kc261]

I have no experience with stargazer, but I thought it was something a snake pretty much always demonstrates if it has it. I didn't think a stargazer would go 6 weeks acting normal, then do something like this. I'd thought of stargazer, too, but from my admittedly very limited knowledge of stargazer, it didn't seem to fit to me.

I do think it is probably neurological. Maybe something sorta equivalent to epilepsy or those fainting goats? I really don't know...pretty much just guessing.

[Shiari]

This doesn't fit stargazing. It does sound a bit like a seizure. I had a lizard once that would have seizures every now and then. If he continues doing that, I'd take him to the vet. They probably wouldn't be able to do anything for him, but they do have resources to get information from other veterinarians to see if they've seen cases like his and that might present some treatment options or a prognosis.

[BloodyBaroness]

Does he have access to fresh clean water?

That sounds like the seizures that take place from dehydration.

If the answer to that is "no, he has not had access to clean water" then soak him right now in 2 inches of room temp water.

[beautifullywild77]

You can even put a cap or two full of Pedialyte the clear kind, into the bowl of water you are using to soak!

[kc261]

Yes, he has had constant access to clean water for the entire 6 weeks I've had him. I can't say I've seen him drinking out of it, though. I just assumed he was. Do you think there is any possibility he isn't drinking on his own for some reason?

[BloodyBaroness]

Yes, he has had constant access to clean water for the entire 6 weeks I've had him. I can't say I've seen him drinking out of it, though. I just assumed he was. Do you think there is any possibility he isn't drinking on his own for some reason?

It's possible.

You may want to give him a soak in room temp water. Just 1-2 inches, you don't want to make him swim, just soak. He should be able to easily touch the bottom and not struggle.

Don't make the water warm, it should feel cooler than your skin, but not exactly cold.

To me, that looks like a dehydrate animal type seizure. I've seen in a few times in snakes that were brought in to my vet's office as rescues.

[Chromatic Corns]

I'm not sure if it could be this but we had several garter snakes in the lab that started having seizures and the vet diagnosed a vitamin deficiency. I think it was Vit B but I can confirm tomorrow. We had to put them on a liquid vitamin the vet gave us for a while and add salmon chunks to their diet. They got much better after that, but one is actually blind in one eye from it. They would convulse if exposed to too much light and we had to turn lights almost out during treatment and cover their cages when they weren't being handled.
Considering the amount he is pooping, we can assume he probably is not able to digest properly and therefore maybe not be getting enough of a certain vitamin or nutrient maybe.

[kc261]

I'll go give him a soak now and watch to see if he drinks while soaking. I think he's small enough that even just an inch of water would make him have to swim. I'll just make it enough to go halfway up his side or so. Is 10-15 minutes good? It'll have to be enough for tonight, cuz I need bed soon, but I can repeat, and do it longer if necessary tomorrow morning.

[kc261]

I'm not sure if it could be this but we had several garter snakes in the lab that started having seizures and the vet diagnosed a vitamin deficiency. I think it was Vit B but I can confirm tomorrow. We had to put them on a liquid vitamin the vet gave us for a while and add salmon chunks to their diet. They got much better after that, but one is actually blind in one eye from it. They would convulse if exposed to too much light and we had to turn lights almost out during treatment and cover their cages when they weren't being handled.
Considering the amount he is pooping, we can assume he probably is not able to digest properly and therefore maybe not be getting enough of a certain vitamin or nutrient maybe.

Interesting. Please do confirm what vitamin it was, and if it was B...which B?

I think it is likely he doesn't digest as well as most corns do: the pooping thing and also his small size. Food lumps do disappear in a normal amount of time, but I think maybe not as much is absorbed as should be.

[BloodyBaroness]

I'll go give him a soak now and watch to see if he drinks while soaking. I think he's small enough that even just an inch of water would make him have to swim. I'll just make it enough to go halfway up his side or so. Is 10-15 minutes good? It'll have to be enough for tonight, cuz I need bed soon, but I can repeat, and do it longer if necessary tomorrow morning.

That will be fine.

Don't repeat it in the morning, just see how he is and asses from there. You don't want to do it too often.

[kc261]

He soaked for about 9 minutes. Ended early because he decided to poop in the water. He didn't drink at all while soaking.

Other than watching him 24/7, which obviously isn't possible, how can I be sure he is drinking enough? What are some signs of dehydration that I can look for? He looks good to my eyes, but he is pretty small so subtle things might be hard to notice. He has shed once since I had him, and that was perfect, which I think would have been a stuck shed problem if he was dehydrated wouldn't it?

[kc261]

BTW, a big THANKS to everyone who has replied to this thread so far. The support on this forum is awesome.

[hikisquid]

I wish him all the best. It's always stressful when a pet is sick.

[Chromatic Corns]

I've seen a person that was dehydrated to the point that their hands and feet seized up. It was very painful and did not stop until IV fluids were administered in the ER. I would think if he was dehydrated enough to kink up that it wouldn't just stop on its own.

[Chromatic Corns]

Just received text back, it was vitamin B1 complex.

[BloodyBaroness]

He soaked for about 9 minutes. Ended early because he decided to poop in the water. He didn't drink at all while soaking.

Other than watching him 24/7, which obviously isn't possible, how can I be sure he is drinking enough? What are some signs of dehydration that I can look for? He looks good to my eyes, but he is pretty small so subtle things might be hard to notice. He has shed once since I had him, and that was perfect, which I think would have been a stuck shed problem if he was dehydrated wouldn't it?

Reptiles can absorb moisture through the wall of the cloaca when immersed. So he may be taking in water without it being obvious.

I would keep a good eye on him and give him another mini-soak this afternoon.

Not sure if anyone asked yet, or you had mentioned it, what are the temps like for him?

Also, can you contact the breeder?

[SteveAlbert]

Interesting. Please do confirm what vitamin it was, and if it was B...which B?

I think it is likely he doesn't digest as well as most corns do: the pooping thing and also his small size. Food lumps do disappear in a normal amount of time, but I think maybe not as much is absorbed as should be.


Interesting. I remember awhile ago with my friend's garter, he said he couldn't feed it only fish because of the lack of a certain vitamin. I believe it was Vitamin B. It also said on forums to break vitamin b tablets in water if you intended to only feed them fish. NO DON'T DO IT. I was just talking about a very different situation years and years ago.

I just think this is an interesting situation. I hope little guy is doing ok now?

[Chip]

Just ran across this thread. I kept a LOT of garters, and they will sometimes have seizures when fed feeder comet goldfish. Thiaminase is the enzyme that breaks down thiamine (B1's), and it is concentrated in many (and presumably all carp-like) fishes. What few people know is, I have seen evidence of seizing in fishes fed feeder comets as well -both fresh and salt.

My turtle buddy Charlie Green who died last year had studied it pretty extensively -I hope his works were saved by someone. But he had lots of necropsy done on turtles, and found that it was often copper, and not thiaminase responsible for their deaths. Copper sulfate is used in the ponds to prevent parasite transmission, and perhaps algae. Either way, he determined that feeder comets were doubly deadly. My evidence from owning a fish store would support this, SO many oscars and other large cichlids traded in had curved spines and pits all in their heads. There has been 100% correlation between this and owners who said they fed their fish largely feeder comets. Correlation does not equal causation, but I own a large fish store and flat out will not sell feeder comets, in spite of there being money to be made. There is no doubt in my mind you are poisoning your pets by feeding them these.

[hikisquid]

The comet goldfish thing is absolutely true. I had a Senegal bichir that fed on comets for a long time to supplement her pellet food, and she was listless and just seemed lethargic all the time. As soon as I switched to a colony of self-bred (and gutloaded) guppies and fresh salmon, she perked back up and lived for quite a long time.

[NH93]

I had three piranhas die from eating comets as well... because that is all they would eat. There weren't feeder guppies available as often, and so we resorted to the comets - not knowing ANYTHING about the dangers. The poor things lasted all but one year.
I also had a large, round, yellow cichlid (can't remember what kind now, but easily 6 inches in diameter) get very ill as well, and die - from what we assume was feeding the comets to him half the time.

[MysticExotics]

I'm not sure if it could be this but we had several garter snakes in the lab that started having seizures and the vet diagnosed a vitamin deficiency. I think it was Vit B but I can confirm tomorrow. We had to put them on a liquid vitamin the vet gave us for a while and add salmon chunks to their diet. They got much better after that, but one is actually blind in one eye from it. They would convulse if exposed to too much light and we had to turn lights almost out during treatment and cover their cages when they weren't being handled.
Considering the amount he is pooping, we can assume he probably is not able to digest properly and therefore maybe not be getting enough of a certain vitamin or nutrient maybe.

Keep in mind Garter Snakes & Corn Snakes have different nutritional needs.

That information on the Vit B1 deficiency is great for Garter Snakes, but not the same for Cornsnakes.