God, i just can't kill mice

[Jicin]

I'm not just cut our to murder them. I just had to put one out of his suffering. I held him for a long time, just wondering what to do with it. My snake each had one but non wanted the third. First i imagined to just keep him warm and alive to hope and try to offer it again at dusk. But it started to squel and seem to suffer painfull spasms. I tried to give him some water a few hours before and he did seem to swallow a few drops. I took it out of the box and it smelled me and crawled all over me. I even checked a website to find out if i could keep it alive somehow to make it a pet. But chances were up to zero.

So in the end i just took a large screwdriver and smashed it right on it's skull (I know, i could have just put it in the freezer but i don't mean for it to suffer) He spewed blood from his mouth and his skull was clearly crushed but *still* the heart beated. I did it a few more times and put it in the freezer when i was sure it's over. Somehow it was worse with the mouse from last week (I bought 4. Now 3) wich i had to throw several times against the wall letting out a painfull squeel each time. Not a process i intented to repeat :( Quick and without pain is how it should be done.

Strangely enough i don't mind to much feeding it to the snake. I do feel sorry for them. Especially because one of my snakes tend them to grab them from behind with ends with a lot of strugle and squeeling. I held the second mouse and tried to bring the snake to grab headfirst this time. It took a few strikes at my hand, and a last one when i put it down and then lost all interest. She probably would have eaten it i haden't intervere.

*sight*. I'm just really upset right now.

[Traci1]

I hear ya. I have never fed live, and I just know I'd feel terrible if I ever had to.

Traci

[Jicin]

Well, live is better for the snake. Pinkies can't bite them. I've fed f/t once and they had no problems eating. But i have no idea of the health of the pinkies when i buy them pre-killed. For all i know, it might have died of desease or parasites. I try to do the best i can for both but there doesn't really seem to be a solution. It's choosing from two evils.

[surfrkidTS]

flick them on the head to render them unconsciuos/paralyzed, and then put them in the freezer. They don't squeel as much and its not as bloody

[Jicin]

I did do a flick on the head. And i had a hard time doing that. That's the problem

[MegF.]

Actually parasites, and many diseases are rendered non-viable by freezing. You're safer feeding f/t than live in that regard. I am glad I don't have to pre-kill my mice before feeding as they are all fed f/t. Mostly for that reason, besides safety of the snake.

[Jicin]

No i didn't think the snake would take over the parasites. But a mouse dying some way or another can't be a healthy mice. And so can't be healthy for a snake. It's probably save to feed f/t but you can't be sure. True you can't be sure with pinkies either but when there alive and show no sign of illness there's a smaller change i think. At least i'm sure there fresh. And i've been told from many sources it's healthier for them to take life feed. Both for nutricients and to have some exercise/

[Amanda E]

i've been told from many sources it's healthier for them to take life feed. Both for nutricients and to have some exercise/

Well, that may be, but be VERY careful when they start eating larger mice that can bite. I've seen what mouse bites can do to snakes so I'll never feed live (except to hatchlings that won't take f/t) due to the possibility of harm.

[Jicin]

Yes. Well, there very young now. I'd deal with that problem when the time is there. But i don't really look forward to it.

Greetings,
Jicin

[MegF.]

My snakes are out nearly every day (except after feeding) and my amel at least, strikes and constricts all her f/t prey, so they get plenty of excercise. As for being more nutritional, I haven't seen anything that has proved one way or the other. But I have seen plenty of injuries from bites to not want to go there. Also, it's less costly for me to purchase f/t and it is readily available. I wouldn't know what a healthy pinky would look like since they barely move to begin with. The f/t mice I purchase certainly look healthy enough. The weight on the mice are good, the fur clean and free of feces and urine, which is more than I can say about the live feeder mice that are kept in large quantities at most pet stores. I guess it's just up to personal preference.

[Krenna]

When people cringe when I say I am buying mice for my snake, the one thing that sticks in my head from the movie Finding Nemo, when the Pelican says, fish gotta swim birds gotta eat.

Its a natural process, I don't feel bad if I have to kill a mouse before I fed it to my snake. Its nature. I would feel worst if my snake got bit then the mouse biting it.

I think alot of people put alot of human feelings on animals. When its all just instinct for the creature.

Just remember its you feeling bad for an animal that has no concept of feelings.

not sure if my post made you feel better or worst but, if anything its an objective opinion base on realistic information.

[marg]

hiya Jicin :wavey:

Is there really more nutrition in live food? Personally, I would think the difference is negligable.

I'm sure the pinkies etc are bred specially as food for the snakes and 'killed' at the right size prior to freezing (willing to learn if I'm wrong on this :) )

Any reputable supplier would therefore make sure (as best they can) that the mice were good quality.

thank you

[MegF.]

I've found that the size is more predictable with the f/t too. I never knew what the pet store would have of the live when I went in. Sometimes they were small, sometimes big....it got really annoying.

[Jicin]

Fresh food is better in general then frozen food. It's like that with everything. Fruit AND flesh. And that's what a mouse is. A tiny hamburger.

I did request frozen mice at the pet store but he said he probably wouldn't be able to get some for a while. Appearantly, the biggest suplier in frozen mice in the Netherland went bankrupt and the other is closed for the holliday. I don't want them from a factory anyway.
He did not kill and freeze the mice he bred himself. He only suplied life. And he's the only one around that even supplies snake food. I called other pet stories for pinkies but they all replied 'Huh???' And then "Yes we do have baby mice but were will only sell them when there X days old". Naturally i asked i wanted 1 or 2 day old mice for my snake.....

I don't think i have to go near those places for a while.

So at least for now, i simply have no other option.

[TigerLilly]

Okay sorry if any of this is repetative, I sorta just skimmed.
Anyways- Tomorrow will be my first time feeding my corn, but the way I think of it is we kill animals, like chickens, in order to feed ourselves so mice are like chickens for snakes. It's just something that has to happen.
I wont feed her pre-dead mice because who knows how they died and who knows how that will effect the snake?
Another thing is, to avoid this happening again, I would only feed one mouse. If you feed more than one the snake might regurgitate(sp?) or get fat.
I wouldn't buy mice from the place you got them from that time because if that mouse just convulsed an died, it's probably not too good.
Again, first-time owner here, I only say these things because that's what I've researched. Good luck.

[MegF.]

I don't agree with the thinking that feeding more than one food item will cause regurge. When my snake is ready for more than the one I'm feeding her, but not quite large enough to take the next size up, I go to feeding two of that size. For instance, my Aztec is eating two fuzzies now. Soon, I'll start her on hoppers. My amel ate two hoppers and then I went to small adults. I've never had a regurge problem, and you rarely see overweight hatchlings, or growing yearlings. You see more fat adults than anything. Most young snakes that are still growing, use the food for growth, and don't gain as much weight. Adults that are done growing, get fat on too much food. Most of the suppliers of f/t mice do this for a living and the quality is pretty good. You can tell if the mice aren't healthy when you look at them. My local petstore gave me f/t mice from a different supplier, and the quality was definitely not as good as their usual supplier. Now, I make sure I request that specific supplier when I order my frozen mice.

[silversmith]

my amel started eating three hoppers last weekend, and she was fine, so the shipment of adult mice is coming on next thursday :D

[TigerLilly]

Oh okay, I'm sorry. I guess under some surcumstances more than one is fine. Like I said still learning here. :) I didn't mean to put out wrong info. The man I bought my corn from said that one mouse a week would be enough. I also did research on various webs which said that a corn might take more than two mice but if it can't handle it will regurge. Mine's an 11 month old, so if you have any feeding advice I would love if you'd e-mail me.
By the way I hope that you are feeling better Jicin.

[MegF.]

He wasn't wrong, he just didn't provide enough information. One mouse a week is fine, unless your snake outgrows the food size. When it doesn't make much of a bulge, the snake is looking for food immediately after feeding (such as you put them back in the viv after feeding them and they don't go into hiding to digest, just cruise around the viv), or they are out looking for food after only a day, then you need to think about increasing the amount. A lot of times the snake just isn't large enough to take the next size up in mice, so you will give two of the ones they are eating now. After 3 or 4 more feedings, you'll probably find they can comfortably handle the next size up. Then you're back to a single food piece again. It all depends on your snake. My two are only a few months apart in age, but are very different in size. One is on medium adult mice, the other on two fuzzies.

[TigerLilly]

Okiee Dokiee :) tanx. But wait, now I have a question: I just fed my corn today. I feed her outside in a paper grocery (sp?) bag. She took the mouse real quick (scared me cuz I was lowering her gently in with the mouse when she caught it and still was on my hand, I had to put her down quick O.o;;) and when she was done, and had swallowed it down to her stomach, I tipped her out gently so that she could be in the sunshine for a while to help her digest. She didn't curl up but seemed real excited and ventured around a long time before she finally curled up in a bush, at which point I scouped her up carefully and placed her in her viv. Do you think she was still looking for food, or working off a bit of excitement just after being fed? I could see the lump so I don't think she's too big for her food. Do you think 1 mouse a week is good?

[Flygning]

I've never heard of people feeding their snake outside and letting it roam. Is this pretty common?

Perhaps the snake is looking for a nice place to hide and digest right away.

[TigerLilly]

I have to feed her outside because my Mother doesn't like snakes or the way they eat.
I also don't have a heat lamp, because I was told that corns, like kings, would be fine as long as it has a constant room temp (however I am considering one). The temp in my house remains constant and is a good temp for her, as she is active when she wants to be. I just let her roam outdoors because she likes to and I thought the sunshine, being a bit warmer than in the house, would help her digest.

[Flygning]

That makes sense. How big is she? Do you ever worry about her making a mad dash for....well, wherever you can't reach?

[TigerLilly]

Anya's about 2 1/2-3 feet long. And no not really, she's very placid and never bites. Whenever I'm out side with her I stay close (she's not afraid of people so this doesn't bother her). If she decides to slow down and just explore I sit down beside her so she can come and sit in my lap for saftey, but if she starts to pick up speed and go someplace I don't want her to, I gently redirect her by slipping my hand under her neck and slidding her upperbody in the other direction. The trick is to always have a hand close to her tail that way she has space but if she begins to race off I can carefully grab her before goes to wherever I can't reach:).

[MegF.]

Next time I would put her in her viv so that she can digest on her heater pad. Laying in the sun, I would think, would make her nervous. During feeding, and right after, they would be most vulnerable to predators. She might have been trying to find a good place to hide. Why do you feed her outdoors? It's great that she's comfortable to eat with you there. My snake has grabbed food while still on my hand too. Once a week is fine.

[TigerLilly]

kewl.:D

[Sabbas]

I find it pretty neat that you feed her outside and all and let her have some natural light to help with digestion but then again, how long do you stay with her outside? It takes quite a while for them to fully digest a meal. I think you'd be better off feeding her outside (cause your mom doesn't want it eating in the house or whatever) and then placing it back in it's viv with an under the tank heat pad on one end of it's viv so it can rest and digest.

Taking the snake outside again after digestion might be kinda cool though (although I'd be too paranoid about mine taking off like a bat outta hell)

[niki]

i could never put live fod in with my snakes while their is frozen it would toture me to do so

[Adam & Eve]

wouldn't there be an easier way to kill the mouse so it would be quick and painless? I know my local provider has found a way, but I don't know what he does. I don't kill my own mice (It'd take a lot of will power to get me to do it...) So does any1 know? I think it's a really neat idea to let the snake digest in the sun. (Doesn't work so well in Indiana at this time of year...) I'd be WAY to parinoid to do that also, maybe when my snakes get a little larger... or a lot. :rolleyes:

[JM :o)]

There are three widely accepted methods of euthanasia for prey animals. The first~ most effective, humane and recomended by the AVMA is CO2 Euthanasia~

http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

The next most effective is cervical dislocation. This is a better method for smaller numbers of animals~ but requires the person to be more personally involved in the kill and is difficult with large prey. Place the prey animal on a stable surface~ hold secuirly by the tail~ place the blade of a screw driver behind the neck just at the base of the scull~ press down with the screw driver enough to secure the animal (animal will struggle)~ pull HARD and FAST upwards and backwards on the tail. You should hear a crack~ the animal will twitch but if you did it correctly (You must completly sever the spinal cord) the animal is effectively dead and pain receptors on the body no longer reach the brain (In other words the twitching is the nerves firing off the last of the electrical impulses stored in the spinal colum~ give it a minuite and it will stop)

With larger rats it is easy to accidently skin the tail of the rat rather than effectively kill it~ I would recomend combining method two and three on larger rats~ Stun first then dislocate

For the squeemish you can "Stun" or "Thump" the prey~ but "Dead" animals sometimes wake up and are MEAN after this (I don't blame them~ bet it hurts like hell if you wake up after this) I would not recomend it except as a combination with cervical dislocation for larger rats.

Put the prey item in a pillow case (Not one your going to sleep on again) and swing HARD into a HARD surface. THUMP. Not pleasant. Remember~ this MAY kill the animal~ will stun it~ but if you don't finish the kill after a stun then the animal will wake up mean and in pain. If you can't bring yourself to do it right~ bring the animal to someone who can~ just because the animal has to die in order to feed our pet does not mean it has to die painfully.

Hope that helps. Put a lot of thought and research into this myself over the years~ I've tried asking them to fall over and stop breathing~ but they don't seem to get it.

Good luck!