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Possible RI - Advice Please

kc261
01-26-2014, 09:35 PM
I think one of our corns may be developing an RI. If so, I'm pretty sure we caught it early.

Right now, she occasionally makes a wheezy sound when breathing that could almost just be a quiet hiss. But this snake is a real sweetie, so I'm pretty sure it isn't a hiss. There have also been a couple times when I could have sworn she sneezed. Do snakes sneeze?

I think this most likely started about a week ago when she spilled her water. When I found it, the sides of her tub had some condensation on them, so I know it was quite humid in there. I did not hear any odd breathing then.

A few days later my daughter heard the first sneeze sound, but only one. And then a day or two after that the snake shed, so I thought it might be related to that. But over the past couple of days I've heard a couple more sneezes and I've started occasionally hearing the wheezy sound. Like maybe once every 5 minutes, and the sneezes are less often than that.

She is not yawning a lot or leaving her mouth hanging open, is not tilting her head/neck up any more than just usual exploring stuff, and I can't see any mucus or bubbles, but I haven't been able to get a good look in her mouth. Hoping my husband will be able to help me with that later.

I've already bumped her temps up a couple degrees. What temp is recommended for corns with possible RI?

Other than watching closely, what else can I do? I will take her to the vet if needed, that is not in question, but obviously I'd like to avoid that expense if possible.

I've heard of a DIY home treatment using a nebulizer and F10, either in conjuction with other treatments or by itself for mild RIs, and it seems that at least so far this one is mild. Does anyone have any experience with that? Does it work?

Nanci
01-26-2014, 09:55 PM
I'd bump her temp up to 87ish. You can check her mouth for mucous by just pulling down the side of her lower lip. If she has secretions, it will pool there. Really, a check-up should only be $40-60, and you'll either catch it early or have your worries set to rest.

kc261
01-26-2014, 10:15 PM
Thanks Nanci.

I don't think I can get in the door at a vet's office in these parts for $60. I'll call around tomorrow and see.

With hubby's help, I got a good look in her mouth and we didn't see any mucus or bubbles at all. Definitely nothing pooling in the corners. The insides of her mouth were a very pale pink, but she's a snow so she's pale anyway, so I guess that's ok.

kc261
01-27-2014, 02:55 PM
The cheapest vet I can find around here that will see exotics is $73 for the office visit/exam. Dr. Stahl is $77. I think he's worth the extra $4!

But the real issue isn't whether it costs $40 or $60 or $77. I don't want to go now when the symptoms are so mild that the vet could miss it if it even is anything, but the trip to the vet will stress the snake, and then in a few days she'll have an RI for sure (either the very mild possible one getting worse, or just caused by the stress) and I'll have to go back to the vet. I did that once with a BP...

So for now I've bumped her temps and I'll just keep a very close eye on her, and if she gets worse I will take her to the vet right away.

This morning when I checked her she seemed about the same. If anything I thought I might be hearing less of the breathing sounds.

MysticExotics
01-27-2014, 03:07 PM
The cheapest vet I can find around here that will see exotics is $73 for the office visit/exam. Dr. Stahl is $77. I think he's worth the extra $4!

But the real issue isn't whether it costs $40 or $60 or $77. I don't want to go now when the symptoms are so mild that the vet could miss it if it even is anything, but the trip to the vet will stress the snake, and then in a few days she'll have an RI for sure (either the very mild possible one getting worse, or just caused by the stress) and I'll have to go back to the vet. I did that once with a BP...

So for now I've bumped her temps and I'll just keep a very close eye on her, and if she gets worse I will take her to the vet right away.

This morning when I checked her she seemed about the same. If anything I thought I might be hearing less of the breathing sounds.
If that vet (Dr Stahl) is the one I'm thinking of, he's definitely a great vet! My boyfriend lives in southern MD and takes his snakes to him!
Are you sure the snake is not getting ready to shed? They can make a popping noise when they are getting ready to shed sometimes.
It's good that you are very aware, and watching for signs.

I have not had to treat any Corns for RI (knock on wood) but I have treated a couple Carpet Pythons. I have used the F10 with a nebulizer, twice a day, successfully.

Keep us posted! Good luck with your baby!

insomniac101
01-27-2014, 04:07 PM
Heather, what concentration of the F10 did you use in your nebulizer?

kc261, I hope your girl is okay.

Kathy

MysticExotics
01-27-2014, 04:29 PM
Heather, what concentration of the F10 did you use in your nebulizer?

kc261, I hope your girl is okay.

Kathy

1:250 is the ratio I use.
I initially ordered the F10 Antiseptic Solution, which is intended to use in a nebulizer or as amouth wash for infections, but that is no longer available without going through a vet.
Many people use the F10SC in the same manor. I contacted the company to verify that it was safe to use that way, even though it wasn't intended for that, they said that yes, it is ok to use the F10SC in that manor, at 1:250 dilution.

insomniac101
01-27-2014, 04:34 PM
Many people use the F10SC in the same manor. I contacted the company to verify that it was safe to use that way, even though it wasn't intended for that, they said that yes, it is ok to use the F10SC in that manor, at 1:250 dilution.

Thank you! That was my concern as well, as I can only find the F10SC available "over the counter".

Kathy

AliCat37
01-27-2014, 04:36 PM
Wow! Sorry to hear everyone's reptile vets are so costly :(
My reptile vet has a $30 office fee and I usually get out of there for under $45.
I hope your snake gets better!

kc261
01-27-2014, 10:57 PM
So I just did my evening check on her. I think she is staying the same...not getting better, not getting worse. Thanks Nanci for the tip about just checking the corner of her mouth rather than needing to get it all the way open. That was definitely less stressful on both her and me!

Today I did a lot of reading about the F10 nebulizer treatment, and other stuff F10 is used for. I found that it has been used in birds, reptiles, horses, elephants, hedgehogs, and other species. In reptiles, I found that it has been used as the nebulizer treatment for RI as well as a soak to treat scale rot, for wound irrigation for things such as bite wounds from live prey, and for nasal irrigation. There is also an ointment form that has been used to treat burns and bite wounds in reptiles. It is supposed to be effective against fungi, viruses, and gram negative and positive bacteria, although it is so far unclear to me whether or not it can treat all of those kinds of pathogens in all of the above types of circumstances.

I am somewhat concerned about the differences between the different formulas, and I can't seem to find good information on that yet. But in addition to what Heather said above, I found another person on another forum who had also contacted the company, and was told that F10SC is safe to use in these manners and a good alternative where the F10 antiseptic solution is not available, such as here in the US. Plus some of what I mentioned in the paragraph above specifically mentions using the F10SC.

So, I'm pretty convinced that using the F10SC nebulizer treatment for RIs is safe, but is it effective? Most of the sources said to use it for mild RIs that are caught early and/or to use it in conjunction with antibiotics. Considering this, I certainly don't think it is the miracle cure for RIs that some people seem to think it is. But I've decided I'm going to try it with this girl, since I think what she has is a very mild RI that I caught early. I will still keep a very close eye on her and take her to the vet if things appear to be getting worse.

If anyone is curious, I got a lot of the above information here:
http://www.meadowsanimalhealthcare.co.uk/new%20f10/articles.html

Also a lot of it came from more anecdotal sources such as forums. The other person that contacted the company about using F10SC versus the F10 antiseptic solution is here:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/370000-f10-disinfectant-4.html

kc261
01-27-2014, 10:58 PM
Oh, I forgot to say:

Thank you Heather for posting your experience with it and especially for posting the dilution that you used.

MysticExotics
01-28-2014, 01:06 AM
Thank you! That was my concern as well, as I can only find the F10SC available "over the counter".

Kathy
No problem! Even knowing several people who have used the SC formula successfully, I still wanted to hear from the company that makes it that it is ok to use in this manner.
So I just did my evening check on her. I think she is staying the same...not getting better, not getting worse. Thanks Nanci for the tip about just checking the corner of her mouth rather than needing to get it all the way open. That was definitely less stressful on both her and me!

Today I did a lot of reading about the F10 nebulizer treatment, and other stuff F10 is used for. I found that it has been used in birds, reptiles, horses, elephants, hedgehogs, and other species. In reptiles, I found that it has been used as the nebulizer treatment for RI as well as a soak to treat scale rot, for wound irrigation for things such as bite wounds from live prey, and for nasal irrigation. There is also an ointment form that has been used to treat burns and bite wounds in reptiles. It is supposed to be effective against fungi, viruses, and gram negative and positive bacteria, although it is so far unclear to me whether or not it can treat all of those kinds of pathogens in all of the above types of circumstances.

I am somewhat concerned about the differences between the different formulas, and I can't seem to find good information on that yet. But in addition to what Heather said above, I found another person on another forum who had also contacted the company, and was told that F10SC is safe to use in these manners and a good alternative where the F10 antiseptic solution is not available, such as here in the US. Plus some of what I mentioned in the paragraph above specifically mentions using the F10SC.

So, I'm pretty convinced that using the F10SC nebulizer treatment for RIs is safe, but is it effective? Most of the sources said to use it for mild RIs that are caught early and/or to use it in conjunction with antibiotics. Considering this, I certainly don't think it is the miracle cure for RIs that some people seem to think it is. But I've decided I'm going to try it with this girl, since I think what she has is a very mild RI that I caught early. I will still keep a very close eye on her and take her to the vet if things appear to be getting worse.

If anyone is curious, I got a lot of the above information here:
http://www.meadowsanimalhealthcare.co.uk/new%20f10/articles.html

Also a lot of it came from more anecdotal sources such as forums. The other person that contacted the company about using F10SC versus the F10 antiseptic solution is here:
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/370000-f10-disinfectant-4.html
It's good to be well educated on these things. :)
Thanks for the extra links!

Oh, I forgot to say:

Thank you Heather for posting your experience with it and especially for posting the dilution that you used.

You're more than welcome! :)

TyeW
01-28-2014, 06:42 PM
Keep in mind that not every infection is the same and a certain treatment that worked for one person may not work for your snake. You may need to use an entirely different antibiotic. The vet would know best.

ClutchItAllDay
01-28-2014, 07:55 PM
I hope your snake will be okay.

MysticExotics
01-28-2014, 08:01 PM
When early signs are caught right away, the F10 in a nebulizer is pretty effective.
Some people cannot easily get to a vet, and may have to put their animal through more stress to go to the vet. For example, my boyfriend lives in southern MD, his vet is in northern VA. He has to pack the snake up, take it to work, where it sits in a box while he's at work, leave work early, and drive to VA to the vet.
That is pretty stressful on the already sick animal, and on top of that, it's usually a few days wait to get an appointment.

I'm not discounting a vet visit, if it is needed, but I personally would rather do a home treatment, if caught early enough, and keep the stress on the animal at a minimum.

insomniac101
01-28-2014, 08:51 PM
Keep in mind that not every infection is the same and a certain treatment that worked for one person may not work for your snake. You may need to use an entirely different antibiotic. The vet would know best.


Absolutely true, but as Heather stated, getting to the vet in a timely manner can be a problem, and a delay could be harmful or fatal to the snake.

Whenever I've had a sick snake, more often than not, it's on a weekend or holiday, and I'm looking at three days out for an appointment. If I can do something at home to at least stabilize the animal, that's less stress they have to deal with. Of course, I see the vet ASAP.

Kathy

kc261
04-03-2014, 02:02 PM
So, a possible health issue just came up with one of my BPs, which made me think about going to the vet, which made me think about the RI this corn had, which made me realize I'd never updated this thread. I dunno if any one cares at this point, but I figured I'd share my experience.

I used the F-10 treatment for about a week. At times I thought the snake was improving. She certainly wasn't getting any worse. But, she also certainly wasn't improving quickly enough for me to be happy with her progress. So off to the vet we went.

The vet (one of the ones in Dr. Stahl's practice, but not Dr. Stahl himself) agreed with me that the snake had a very mild RI. The only obvious symptom he saw was a bit of mucus in the structure in the roof of the mouth. I had not thought to look UP when I looked in her mouth, so I had missed it. I asked him about doing a culture, and he said that it is usually not necessary. He said they'll do it if the RI doesn't clear up with the first round of antibiotics, or if it starts spreading to other snakes in my collection. He prescribed injections of 2 different antibiotics (I didn't think fast enough to ask, but I suspect one for gram negative and one for gram positive?) and said that the dual attack usually clears everything up. The vet tech taught my husband and I how to administer the shots, and sent us home.

It took about a week, maybe 10 days of antibiotics before I could say for sure that I was seeing improvement. So, I'm not really sure it was curing it any faster than the F-10 had been. But by the time the series of injections was done, she'd been symptom free for a while and I felt confident that she had fully recovered. That was a while back, and she's been 100% fine since. Yay!

A few other notes. The vet recommended that I do not feed the snake at all during the treatment and for about a week after the last shot, and then start her out with a smaller than usual meal. He said something about the treatment already being a little hard on them and no need for further stress. I know antibiotics can affect gut flora, so it makes sense to me that one would want to do something similar to a regurge protocol.

Regarding the F-10, the vet had heard of it, although he seemed surprised it was available in the US. He stated that he thought it was likely that the F-10 treatment had helped keep the RI stay at that very minor level. I'm not sure he was 100% in favor of using it, though, because he did not advise that I continue to do so in conjunction with the antibiotics. But he also didn't say anything along the lines of "don't do that again" or that I shouldn't have tried it. I think if the same situation comes up again, I'll start using the treatment the very first day I even have a thought in the direction of RI, and see if it works. I do advise that anyone who tries this method monitor the snake very closely and if the snake gets worse or does not show improvement soon, that you go to the vet.

Both the vet & the vet tech asked me lots of general husbandry questions, and apparently I passed with flying colors. :) The one thing they recommended I should be doing that I don't do is that I give each and every snake a soak 2-3 times a week, BPs and corns. Just because...I'm not sure why. I asked why, and the answer didn't fully make sense to me. Something about humidity, but even if there is proper humidity in the enclosure, they still recommend it. Does anyone do this? Has anyone heard this recommended before? I'm going to post a separate thread about it to see what people say.