Does not eat / throws up food when she does

[Zarasor]

Good day to all. I am new to this site, so please bare with me if I am not doing this right.

I am the proud owner of a corn snake I purchased in July as a gift for my 8 year old daughter. Its been a wonderful pet an we love her. All was going well with her until a few weeks ago when my daughter accidentally left the viv door open and the snake got out for a few hours. Luckily we found her in a corner in a closet underneath some boxes. She was however on a very cold concrete floor (we live in Canada and the temp was -25 C outside that day). I quickly put her back in her viv to warm up (I keep it between 90 -95 F) and all looked fine. 4 days later, on her normal feeding day, I gave her her normal adult mouse but she refused to eat it. I tried again for the next few days but she she still wouldn't eat. I then noticed she was going into her shedding cycle and I attributed the lack of appetite to that. After the shed, I fed her again an this time she took it but only to throw it up the next day. Since then, she has taken and thrown up 2 more for a total of 3 times. She had now not eaten properly in about 6 weeks and I am at wits end. I have also noticed that she seems to be drinking a lot of water and that she appears to be either sneezing or coughing (if that's even possible). The breeder I bought it from has closed up shop and can't be reached so am turning to you folks for advice.

[Zarasor]

Actually, I found Kathy Love's FAQ on regurgitation treatment. I will try that ASAP and will let you folks know what happens.

[TheFrogman]

Actually, I found Kathy Love's FAQ on regurgitation treatment. I will try that ASAP and will let you folks know what happens.

Yes, follow that to the letter and you should be A-OK !

[Kat_Dog]

I want to add, 90-95 is too hot for a corn. Their optimal temps for the warm side is 82-85.

Also, if she's coughing/sneezing, then she probably has a respiratory infection from being in the cold.
Check the inside of her mouth for bubbles or foamy substance. You may have to take her to the vet to treat it.

[Zarasor]

Thank you for your reply Kat_dog and Frogman. I will lower the temp for sure. I had it at about 85 for most of the time I had the snake but I read on another site that turning up the heat level might help to get it to start eating again so I turned it up about 4 weeks ago.

This might sound like a stupid question but how exactly would you recommend that I get its mouth open? I have never had to do that before.

[NH93]

Ok... so, first off, the ambient air (overall temperature in the cage) should be around 70-75F; what most homes are.
The hot spot should be around 85F.

How are you heating the cage AND controlling this heat source!?

A UTH with thermostat is strongly recommended!! Heat bulbs are generally a no-no, as they tend to get much too hot for a corn!
Corns require belly heat to digest properly as well. They need a minimum of 75F (I have heard0 in order to digest, but closer to 85F - for 1/3 of the tank or less - should be provided using some form of belly heat. As I've already mentioned, UTH are great!

Definitely do follow through with that regurge protocol.*****!!!!

On a side note, having your corn escape for that short of time should not affect her/him too much, if at all. :)

[Zarasor]

Thank you NH93. I've got standard day and night (red ) light that was sold to me with the vivarium kit. The main heat source is a heat pad that is under the vivarium on one side. The other side is just kept at ambient temp which is 70 to 75. I have a thermometer with a probe at the end to measure the surface temp. I control the surface temp on the warm side by adding or removing some of the cedar substrate. The thicker the layer on top of the heat pad, the lower the temp on the surface.

As I mentioned, I was keeping the surface temp on the warm side at about 85 but then read on another site that increasing the temp a bit might help. I have now tried it for a a few weeks and it does not seem to be working. I will bring the temp back down tonight when I get home.

I am most concerned by what seems to be sneezing or coughing and the fact that she has really not been very active the last few days. I have made some inquiries about a herp vet in my area but they are sooooo expensive and I am really on a tight budget these days. I am a single dad with 2 kids, so I have to really watch what I spend my money on. That being said, I love reptiles and all animals really. We have some leopard geckos, a dog, tropical fish, and of course the snake. So I really want to help this poor creature. My daughter would be heart broken if we lose it. Thats why ended up on this site.

You guys all seem great by the way. Some good advice so far it seems.

[NH93]

AHHH TAKE OUT THE CEDAR!! I bet that's what causing the respiratory problems! The oils in it are toxic to snakes, small animals, abd even people!

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[NH93]

Please please PLEASE read the care give on this home page!!

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[NH93]

Unfortunately those snake starter kits are bull . I find that never have the right equipment and just cause problems for new pet owners!! :(

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[NH93]

Having no substrate at this point is better than using cedar. You can even use paper towel; many people do. Aspen is a generally agreeable wood substrate to use. The ones you must avoid are CEDAR AND PINE!! They are both toxic to snakes and small animals!!

You really should have a thermostat as well for controlling the UTH. Corns and other snakes burrow, and as such get right to the glass of the bottom of the tank (where the hottest part of the UTH is). Usually it is suggested that you measure the hottest possible spot the snake can get to. Thermostats are important because they control the output of heat. They come with thermostat probes, which you place either outside the vive in between the glass and UTH, or stuck to the bottom of the inside of the vive with hot glue.

[NH93]

Also avoid sand as a substrate (forgot to mention), as it can cause impaction if ingested, and get stuck between scales causing irritation and infection.

There's a lot to know for such an 'easy' pet, isn't there? ;)

[Zarasor]

Wow you think that's what it could be? It been ok in there for more than 6 months and was doing really well. I will try to follow Kathy's regurgitation recommendations for now. Changing the substrate at this point will probably really probably stress the poor thing out even more. I will try to get it to eat and lower the temp for her a bit. First chance I get, i will change to Aspen of some other substrate as you suggest. I will be signing off for a while but I will check again tomorrow. Thank you for your help!!

[NH93]

It is caused over time. I'm almost certain that is what's wrong. PLEASE change that NOW! It may she's your snake but without changing the cedar it won't matter... because frankly your snake is only going to get worse.

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[The Cat]

I agree with the above. ^^

[Ripsaw642]

It is caused over time. I'm almost certain that is what's wrong. PLEASE change that NOW! It may she's your snake but without changing the cedar it won't matter... because frankly your snake is only going to get worse.

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I agree with the above. ^^

^^^YES, CHANGE IT OUT NOW^^^^^^
Use paper towel, newspaper, or NOTHING. All are way better than cedar chips. Ever get a cedar sliver? I get them all the time, working with wood it hurts more than any other sliver because the oils are poisonous. Now imagine you had to crawl through those poisonous slivers, your whole life. PLEASE REMOVE THE CEDAR!!! :headbang:

[AliCat37]

Yep, another vote for the cedar causing the problems. They usually do okay on it for a few weeks or months, then they go down hill very quickly.

Also, I saw you had a question about opening her mouth? Not sure why you would want to open her mouth. You give her the nutribac in her water, but change it twice a day. Then, offer her a very, very tiny cut up mouse with nutribac rolled into it. That is basically the regurge protocol

[Alicia P]

Michelle someone mentioned opening the mouth to check for foaming/bubbles.

OP (original poster) you need to get the cedar out ASAP!
Take the snake out hand it to your daughter have her walk to another room.
Vacuum the cedar out of the tank.
Give the tank a quick wipe down with a 50/50 vinegar/water solution.
Wipe it dry with a paper towel.
Toss a couple paper towels down and place the hides back in.
Have your daughter bring the snake back in the room and place it back in the tank.
You can have the substrate switched out in less than 10 mins with minimal stress.

You will however need to unplug your under tank heater (UTH) until you can get a thermostat. An unregulated UTH can get up to 120F and have been known to cause burns, not to mention that corns can develop neurological issues from prolonged temps above 90F.

Here is a link to a thermostat that will control the output of heat for your UTH http://www.amazon.ca/Jumpstart-Digital-Thermostat-Heat-Mats/dp/B000NZZG3S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391473413&sr=8-1&keywords=hydrofarm+thermostat

[Ripsaw642]

Michelle someone mentioned opening the mouth to check for foaming/bubbles.

OP (original poster) you need to get the cedar out ASAP!
Take the snake out hand it to your daughter have her walk to another room.
Vacuum the cedar out of the tank.
Give the tank a quick wipe down with a 50/50 vinegar/water solution.
Wipe it dry with a paper towel.
Toss a couple paper towels down and place the hides back in.
Have your daughter bring the snake back in the room and place it back in the tank.
You can have the substrate switched out in less than 10 mins with minimal stress.

You will however need to unplug your under tank heater (UTH) until you can get a thermostat. An unregulated UTH can get up to 120F and have been known to cause burns, not to mention that corns can develop neurological issues from prolonged temps above 90F.

Here is a link to a thermostat that will control the output of heat for your UTH http://www.amazon.ca/Jumpstart-Digital-Thermostat-Heat-Mats/dp/B000NZZG3S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391473413&sr=8-1&keywords=hydrofarm+thermostat
+Rep (Not sure i understand the rep system)That is exactly what i do when i change out substrate. Takes me less than 10 maybe closer to 5 mins. I'm also using that thermostat to control my rack, and a separate viv(have 2 so far, going to use them as backups when i can afford a herpstat). Can confirm they work fine. I also used a human heat pad with it, worked fine,If that's not affordable, you can pick up a lamp dimmer from most hardware and big box stores for ~$10. Like this one http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Plumbing-Electrical/Electrical/Wiring-Devices/Switches/Dimmer/Table-Lamp-Dimmer-Switch/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN/R-I3673484?Ntt=lamp+dimmer I really hope your snake is ok...

[Zarasor]

Hello to all of you that responded.You guys are really awesome. I wish I had found this site when I first started having problems. I have some good news for all of you. First, I checked and the substrate was not cedar after all, it was fir. Not that it may be a lot better, but its my understanding that its at least somewhat better. I stopped off at the pet store last night and got a new heat pad which allows me to control the temp and I will be installing that tonight. Most importantly though, I bought some pinkies and I when I gave one to the snake, it took it very quickly. As of this morning, it was keeping it down, so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I will be removing all the substrate as soon as can. Based on Kathy's regurgitation treatment recommendations however and the fact that I was mistaken about the Cedar, I am thinking I should maybe wait a few days before handling and hopefully give her the chance to digest. Of course, if she does not keep it down, I will remove the substrate immediately. Any thoughts on that plan?

[Zarasor]

Also, I forgot to mention that the surface temp on the warm side of the viv is now at a comfortable 82.5 F and 73 F on the cooler side. I have an infrared thermometer that I use for work that's great for checking surface temps. I will be using it regularly now to measure the surface temps.

[kathylove]

I believe that fir and other pines may not be as toxic as cedar - but are still very irritating over time. You don't want to bother the snake AT ALL for the next few days while it is digesting. But once it either digests or regurges, remove the fir as you planned to. If you can't find aspen or cypress, then just plain ol' paper towel will be fine for now.

I don't remember reading if you have hides. They are even more important if you use paper towel because corns like to hide. But it does sound like your corn is an adult since you were feeding adult mice. Adults are not quite as secretive as babies.

Glad you fed it a pinkie. If it can't even digest that, you really need Nutri Bac. Unfortunately, postage is expensive from the US, even to Canada. Not sure if anyone sells it in Canada. But I can mail it there if you can't find it closer to home (see my Cornutopia site).

If your snake does digest the pink ok, your main objective is not to increase food size too quickly. Most people think that after a couple of successful small meals, they can go back to normal. But it takes a LONG time to bring them back after a few regurges. You will have to progress very slowly through the increasing sizes, or you will have another regurge and have to start all over again. One helpful tip to increase ease of digestion (assuming you are feeding dead mice) is to slice or poke holes into the mouse so that digestive juices can immediately begin work instead of having to digest skin and fur first. A vet did a study with healthy baby corns and found that those fed with slit pinks grew faster than those eating regular, whole pinks. It seems that food was going through their systems without being completely digested when presented in the totally "natural" package. Because it will be digested faster, it is less likely to be regurged, IMO.

Keep handling to a minimum and do anything you can to reduce stress for the next few months while your pet is recovering.

Good luck!

[Zarasor]

Wow thank you Kathy. I will do my best to follow your instructions to the letter. Lets hope we can get this beautiful girl back to health. I will try to find the Nutri-bac locally but if i can't, you will be my my next choice for sure.

Just a side note. I am shocked and very disappointed with the people that sold me this snake without informing me properly or providing me with the right products and equipment to best take care of her. Its really a shame. No wonder when I went by there this past weekend, their store was closed down and they were out of business. I spent $500.00 to end up with a sick snake and heartbroken little girl.Very sad really

Thank goodness I have found all you kind folks that gave me the correct info. I will keep everyone posted on our progress.

[kathylove]

Unfortunately, pet shops are often not a very reliable source of good information about herps. I usually recommend that people avoid buying reptiles in shops UNLESS it is a good, reputable, REPTILE shop (not general pet shop that sells a few herps) OR if it is a general, reputable, shop, but has at least 1 employee who keeps a variety of herps at home and who seems knowledgable and helpful.

But you are generally better off dealing directly with the breeder who produced the type of reptile you want. There is at least 1 member subforum (maybe several) on this website that is maintained by Canadians. Be sure to check them out for info on local breeders, shops, supplies, etc.

[Zarasor]

Good morning Kathy and everyone else. So unfortunately, the pinky did not stay down. I found it partially digested but still intact when I arrived home. I immediately went ahead with the removal of all wood substrate and completely disinfected her enclosure. I have laid down a nice soft thick layer of paper towels instead and installed a new heat pad that allows me to better control temp. I even put in a second larger hide on the cooler side so she has more options to suit her comfort. I guess now I will just have to wait a few days and try again. How long can she go without eating though I wonder? By my count, she has not had a proper meal in about 6 weeks.

I have also checked locally for the Nutri bac with no success. If anyone in the Montreal Canada area reads this and knows how I can get my hands on some, please let me know. Otherwise I will try and get some through Kathy.

As for the guys who sold me the snake, they had a shop that specialized only in reptiles, tropical fish and other exotics. The guy who sold it to me told that he breeds them himself in his garage at home. The shop had been around for at least 5 years because I bought my leopard Gecko's from them. All that is to say, I thought for sure he knew what he was talking about and I never second guessed his recommendations for one second. I wish I could get a hold of him now though and ask him a few pointed questions.

[HVani]

So sorry you are going through this :(

I would wait 2 weeks before trying to feed again. An adult corn snake can go months without eating and be fine. I had a sick snake once and she did not eat for over 4 months. Today she is perfectly fine. Multiple regurges are really tough on their system and it would be better to wait then have her regurge again.

[kathylove]

If an adult corn regurged a pink and the temps were good, that is a very bad sign. I would wait 10 - 14 days before feeding a slit pink again, but I would give Nutri Bac before feeding again. It is harder on the snake to regurge than it is to go without food, IMO.

Sorry it didn't work this time.

[Zarasor]

Thank you for concern and your reply HVni. Its a little sad but hopefully the battle is not lost and I can nurse our beautiful girl back to health. I will continue to follow Kathy's recommendations and hope for the best.

[Zarasor]

Hi again Kathy. thank you again for taking the time to help me. I am actually on your website now to try and get that Nutribac. Is it best if I place the order through your site or if I contact you by phone to make arrangements?

[kathylove]

My site is only geared to US postage. Please email me at kathy@cornutopia.com as I will have to look up current postage rates to Canada.

[Zarasor]

Ok Kathy, I will contact you for an order in the next few minutes.

Thank you!

[Senusenu]

Good luck. My Udjat regurged at the end of December, I waited 11 days and he's fed 4 times since then without issue. Definitely worrying when it happens, just stay calm and be patient.

[kc261]

So she's regurged 4 times now, and one of those was only a pinkie? Poor thing! As has already been stated, the regurges are much more of a threat to her health than missing the meals.

It sounds like you are on the right track though. Just make sure you progress very slowly to avoid any more regurges.

Also, keep a very close eye on the sneezing and any other signs of a respiratory infection. Hopefully you've fixed that now by switching out the substrate, but if she does actually have an infection, whether it was caused by the brief chill she got, or the phenols from the fir substrate, or the regurges (I think I've read that sometimes the stomach acids can end up going back down into the lungs and causing issues that way), it may not go away by itself.

Good luck!

[Zarasor]

Hello to all that helped with great advice. I just wanted to update everyone on the status of our cornsnake. Based on Kathy's advice, I went ahead and started feeding her perforated pinkies treated with Nutri Bac. I must say that so far, i have been having a great result. I have fed her 4 pinkies and I have had no more regurges. There is also no more sign of respiratory issues. She is doing much better and I think we she has turned the corner. I will keep feeding a few more pinkies just to be sure though.

[smigon]

Oh, that is SO good to hear! I am glad you were able to get the right advice here, and that Kathy was able to get you the Nutri Bac to help her start eating again. Best of luck!

[kc261]

It is wonderful to hear that your snake seems to have turned the corner and is getting better! Yay! Good job on your part!

I do want to say that you reported the last regurge on the 5th, and now on the 24th you are reporting that 4 pinkies have stayed down. If you had followed the standard protocol of waiting after the regurge before attempting to feed again, and then offered only a single pink at a time, then there would not have been time for you to give her 4 meals. One of the most common mistakes people make with a snake that has regurged is to offer food again too soon, or go back to normal sized feedings too soon, and that can result in another regurge. So please proceed slowly!