14 year old female albino cornsnake won't eat or shed

[jmascolino]

Our girl is at least 14. She went through a long phase of not eating, but shedding and drinking water until we realized her heating pad wasn't working and she wasn't warm enough. Got a better heating pad and heat lamp and she was eating and shedding again, but now she's gone a month or so without eating or shedding. She's very pale like she'll shed any day & we've put humidifiers by her house, soaked her and no shedding. When we've soaked her the last couple of times, she seemed really stressed & freaked out a little. It also seems like there are two little marks on her scales on her back. Took her to the vet before when she wasn't eating & no parasites or other problems. Any advice???

[smigon]

Leave her be for another week, the heat lamp is not good for corns, it dries the viv out and can cause bad sheds. I would ditch it altogether.

I definitely believe the temps are the problem. What do you have the UTH set at for the pad? Is it covering 1/3 of the bottom of the tank?

[brindle]

The best sheds I've ever had were using a heat lamp. The worst with several snakes, heat pads. Anecdotal evidence sure, but no different then all the anecdotes advocating heat pads...
Just thought I would throw that out there because this anti-lamp is getting on my nerves.

[Chip]

Lamps aren't necessary, are a far bigger fire risk, and dry the cage out more than a pad. That isn't anecdotal. Proper temps can be held with a pad in almost every instance.

You shouldn't need to mist or soak a corn snake unless your enclosure is too dry. An imperfect shed is rare in my collection. Just give her some time, she's probably in a shed stage.

[NH93]

Here's what I heard:
- No mention of a thermostat for the heat pad
- Additional heat on top of the heat pad (or, if you are a strong advocate for lamps... whichever 0 you only need ONE in my opinion
- Soaking BEFORE a shed

If you don't have a thermostat for the UTH, that is a necessity! How are you measuring to know what temperature it is? (Dial, digital, probed, infrared thermometer?)

Again, corns do not require additional heating beyond the heat pad -- unless your house is constantly 65F, for example, I can't see them needing it ever.

And with the soaking. That is only necessary for stuck sheds after the process has occurred. Soaking prior to can rinse away important oils on the snakes skin that aid in shedding. If anything, I'd add a damp moss hide when she turns blue :)

[brindle]

Lamps aren't necessary, are a far bigger fire risk, and dry the cage out more than a pad. That isn't anecdotal. Proper temps can be held with a pad in almost every instance.

You shouldn't need to mist or soak a corn snake unless your enclosure is too dry. An imperfect shed is rare in my collection. Just give her some time, she's probably in a shed stage.
I've never had a fire with either. The lamp would have to topple over in order to cause a fire, doesn't happen with simple precautions.
- heat pads crack glass terrariums frequently
- heat pads do not provide ambient heat temps (in the middle of a central Canadian winter, in an old house, you need ambient heats)
- heat pads are higher maintenance (thermostats or rheostat, having to glue the unsightly wire down).
- heat pads have caused burns, whether the pad wasn't controlled with a therm or rheostat or the pad or thermostat/rheostat malfunctioned

Heat lamps do dry the cage out a but more, yes but they also provide AMBIENT heat, not just spot heat.
They provide a consistent temperature, ambient/spot heat, nice red light at night for observation and have (in MY experience) given the snakes a nice, clean, single piece shed.

It boils down to anecdotes and these are mine.
You can have your pads and I'll stick to my lamps. I'm just trying to explain that they are not the debbil as everyone likes to claim on this forum...
Good luck with your snake OP.

[ashleynicole]

Personally I prefer flexwatt... but even that can fail. But I live in fl and my house stays 76 year round so ambient temps aren't an issue. And as far as a heat lamp drying out well just add a sphagnum moss hide and your good to go.

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[NH93]

I've never had a fire with either. The lamp would have to topple over in order to cause a fire, doesn't happen with simple precautions.
- heat pads crack glass terrariums frequently
- heat pads do not provide ambient heat temps (in the middle of a central Canadian winter, in an old house, you need ambient heats)
- heat pads are higher maintenance (thermostats or rheostat, having to glue the unsightly wire down).
- heat pads have caused burns, whether the pad wasn't controlled with a therm or rheostat or the pad or thermostat/rheostat malfunctioned

Heat lamps do dry the cage out a but more, yes but they also provide AMBIENT heat, not just spot heat.
They provide a consistent temperature, ambient/spot heat, nice red light at night for observation and have (in MY experience) given the snakes a nice, clean, single piece shed.

It boils down to anecdotes and these are mine.
You can have your pads and I'll stick to my lamps. I'm just trying to explain that they are not the debbil as everyone likes to claim on this forum...
Good luck with your snake OP.


I don't mean to argue at all, and I have used lamps with some success (more so with a ball python who needed the extra ambient temps), but I want to address some things.

-A UTH cracking glass would only if happen IF there was no thermostat to regulate. Using unregulated UTHs and heat sources in general are NOT advocated for in the snake and reptile "world".
-You are correct that UTHs do not heat the air, however, I also live in Canada (originally from the REAL far North, not southern Ontario) and I personally can attest that corns still would probably not *need* a heat lamp in the winter, unless you keep your home unbearably cold. To me, unbearably cold is essentially anything less than 70F during the day -- it feels different being at 70F in the winter than in the summer. If your home is too cold, things seize up anyway. But, that is up to personal interpretation.
-I guess it depends what you call maintenance; initial setup may take longer, but you don't have to replace UTHs or thermostats nearly as often as bulbs for lamps. As for wires, you get them either way. There SHOULD be wires - it means you have your probed thermometers in place as well, which is necessary for measuring.
- I agree that thermostats can malfunction and cause burns. However, if not enough belly heat is provided after a meal, regurges can happen. From what I have seen, regurges tend to be more fatal than burns.

Just my two cents! :crazy01:

[Chip]

I've never had a fire with either.
I have. Multiple times, especially with bulbs. If you keep enough herps long enough, you most likely will have a fire or at least near-fire too.

The lamp would have to topple over in order to cause a fire, doesn't happen with simple precautions.
Not true. There are a myriad of ways something flammable and the bulb can get too close to each other.
- heat pads crack glass terrariums frequently Frequently? Disagree.
- heat pads do not provide ambient heat temps (in the middle of a central Canadian winter, in an old house, you need ambient heats) Sure they do. There is warm air over the heating element. And if you want to trap more in, a simple piece of cardboard over a portion of the top can insulate well.
- heat pads are higher maintenance (thermostats or rheostat, having to glue the unsightly wire down). I would argue that changing bulbs is the greatest "maintenance" involved with heating an enclosure either way. And thermostats and rheostats are no more needed with belly heat than radiant heat.
- heat pads have caused burns, whether the pad wasn't controlled with a therm or rheostat or the pad or thermostat/rheostat malfunctioned
Not in corn snakes.
It boils down to anecdotes and these are mine. It really isn't just anecdotes. I can show you the wattage difference. Drying of the cage each way can be demonstrated. I doubt you'll find many people who have kept snakes long that use lights, and I'd be stunned if you could find a professional breeder of corns with a single bulb in their facility. There is a reason for this. They are inefficient, a greater fire risk, and dry out the enclosure too much.
You can have your pads and I'll stick to my lamps. I'm just trying to explain that they are not the debbil as everyone likes to claim on this forum...
Good luck with your snake OP.
No, they aren't the devil, and most of us who were keeping snakes back in the dark ages started this way. We recommend pads, because they are safer, more efficient, and don't dry the enclosure out nearly as badly. If you are happy running lamps, knock yourself out. But don't expect those of us who prefer UTH's not to suggest them and say why. :)

[MysticExotics]

I'm going to approach this a little differently.

Heat is heat. The source (in relation to them digesting) is not necessarily as important **I have more to add to that**.

Regardless of what heat source you have, you need to have a thermostat. A rheostat is *ok*, you can adjust the temps if needed, but the problem is if heat gets to high or low when you're not home, you have a problem. A thermostat will fix the problem at that moment.

I use ambient heat, and have for four years. I have a radiant oil room heater, on a double thermostat. I have one thermostat plugged into the heat source, and a backup thermostat plugged into the 1st thermostat, so if one fails, the backup thermostat can regulate it.

Heat lamps and flex watt are PROVEN fire dangers. I will not ever use them.

The UTH that are designed to use under the enclosure are safer, if used properly, but they can become a fire danger if not used correctly.
They will only crack the glass on a tank if they are unregulated (no thermostat).

There are radiant heat panels (Pro Heat) that I am working on getting for my Carpet Python cages. My pythons are all younger now, but I am setting up my AP cages prior to when they will reach full size.
I will be using the RHP's in the cages, and still keep my room at ambient temps for the animals in racks (mostly babies/juvs). All of my heat sources will be set up with thermostats.

Heat lamps also do dry out the air, moreso than any other heat source. In a more humid climate like mine, as opposed to an airid climate like AZ, for example.

Flexwatt was never intended to be used in this manner. Did you hear about Pro Exotic Reptiles(in Colorado) burning down? Guess what? Flexwatt caused that fire.

Burns are cause by unregulated heat sources, it doesn't matter the heat source.

Even with a thermostat, the heat lamps are still a fire danger.

Hydration is important with the shed process. No matter the heat source, if a snake is dehydrated, they won't be able to shed properly, and they will have broken sheds, and/or stuck sheds. The hydration helps the oil build up needed to separate the skin that is going to be shed.

They need access to clean water for drinking, and having a water source big enough to soak in helps as well.

[smigon]

- heat pads crack glass terrariums frequently

I would like to see your source on this. UTHs are set about 87°, this is 10° less than your body heat, and I have never had a glass shatter in my hand because my hand was too hot.

- heat pads do not provide ambient heat temps (in the middle of a central Canadian winter, in an old house, you need ambient heats)

Absolutely they do, the substrate warms all the way to the top, and putting a little less substrate will lift the temps even higher all through the warm side. You can also cover the lid with a towel or dishcloth to keep the heat in on especially cold nights, or invest in an inexpensive room heater.

- heat pads are higher maintenance (thermostats or rheostat, having to glue the unsightly wire down).

UTHs have a very minimal amount of maintenance to install, 5 minutes tops, but then you are done. I don't glue my wires from my probe thermometer, I just run it along the corner of the viv and under the viv on the warm side. Once in a while one of my snakes will move it slightly, and if my temps are off them I check to see if the probe is still in place. I also use a large stone to hold them down for the bigger snakes.

Lightbulbs for the heat lamps are so fragile you have to replace them often, and they are not cheap. You must have several on hand at all times in case one burns out since the snake relies on it for heat.

- heat pads have caused burns, whether the pad wasn't controlled with a therm or rheostat or the pad or thermostat/rheostat malfunctioned

Chip and I have gone into deep discussion over this, I was a firm believer that overheated UTHs cause burns until I did some research. There are only 2 cases of "burned" corns that I found on the internet, and Chip suggested it might be from sick or elderly corns. The evidence of burning from a regulated UTH are slim to none.

heat pads have caused burns, whether the pad wasn't controlled with a therm or rheostat or the pad or thermostat/rheostat malfunctioned

The chances of a light burning out or failing or causing a fire or being knocked off are SO much higher than a UTH or thermostat malfunction. And when the UTH is getting hotter than the thermostat is set at many shut down on their own, preventing the possibility of overheating.

Use whatever you want, I just am interested in knowing where you got your facts.

[smigon]

I definitely believe the temps are the problem. What do you have the UTH set at for the pad? Is it covering 1/3 of the bottom of the tank?

You still haven't answered my question, what are your temps set at for the UTH and what is the probe thermometer reading under the substrate over the glass in the middle of the UTH?

[MysticExotics]

Our girl is at least 14. She went through a long phase of not eating, but shedding and drinking water until we realized her heating pad wasn't working and she wasn't warm enough. Got a better heating pad and heat lamp and she was eating and shedding again, but now she's gone a month or so without eating or shedding. She's very pale like she'll shed any day & we've put humidifiers by her house, soaked her and no shedding. When we've soaked her the last couple of times, she seemed really stressed & freaked out a little. It also seems like there are two little marks on her scales on her back. Took her to the vet before when she wasn't eating & no parasites or other problems. Any advice???

If she is still in the pale/opaque phase, give it a week. She'll go clear and then shed.

For your location, it sounds like you do have too much heat. That may be contributing to the problem.

Can you post a photo of the marks on her scales?

[Verdi]

Brindle and Smigon, your argument can be discussed somewhere else. Both heat lamps and heat pads have advantages and differences. I believe it's owners' discretion. Now back to this poor snake that is clearly going through something!!



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[smigon]

Brindle and Smigon, your argument can be discussed somewhere else. Both heat lamps and heat pads have advantages and differences. I believe it's owners' discretion.


So we should discuss this somewhere else, like a thread that says "we realized her heating pad wasn't working and she wasn't warm enough. Got a better heating pad and heat lamp and she was eating and shedding again, but now she's gone a month or so without eating or shedding"?

Or a thread about how to take photos of snakes?

Or what to name your snake?

Your response is ridiculous, this is exactly where it should be, debating for the owners to get all the positive and negative aspects of each type of heating.

This was your first post, I am hoping you plan on becoming a productive member of our forum, otherwise please quit trolling and move along, leave the reprimands to the moderators of this forum.

[NH93]

Brindle and Smigon, your argument can be discussed somewhere else. Both heat lamps and heat pads have advantages and differences. I believe it's owners' discretion. Now back to this poor snake that is clearly going through something!!



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If you are not a moderator, don't take moderating into your own hands.

[Chip]

But welcome to the forums.

[Susan]

To All: Please leave the moderating to the moderators. This is a discussion forum and all viewpoints are welcome to be discussed by anyone.

[brindle]

I would like to see your source on this. UTHs are set about 87°, this is 10° less than your body heat, and I have never had a glass shatter in my hand because my hand was too hot.

I understand that 87 is a proper temperature. I never disputed that. However, I have heard of (even in very recent posts/threads) the frequency with which UTHs (and thermostats for that matter) malfunction or quit working altogether. Even when paying top dollar for your equipment.

Absolutely they do, the substrate warms all the way to the top, and putting a little less substrate will lift the temps even higher all through the warm side. You can also cover the lid with a towel or dishcloth to keep the heat in on especially cold nights, or invest in an inexpensive room heater.

I don't think you have ever lived through a central Canadian winter. When it is colder then -50 - -60 degree Celsius on a bad night: UTH just doesn't cut it.

UTHs have a very minimal amount of maintenance to install, 5 minutes tops, but then you are done. I don't glue my wires from my probe thermometer, I just run it along the corner of the viv and under the viv on the warm side. Once in a while one of my snakes will move it slightly, and if my temps are off them I check to see if the probe is still in place. I also use a large stone to hold them down for the bigger snakes.

Heat lamps you simply throw on the top of the terrarium. Done.

Lightbulbs for the heat lamps are so fragile you have to replace them often, and they are not cheap. You must have several on hand at all times in case one burns out since the snake relies on it for heat.

I have never had this happen and I've thrown my lamps around pretty carelessly:sobstory:. Also, it is obvious when the bulb goes out or the lamp malfunctions.... the light goes out. If you have a spare lamp and a couple of spare bulbs... done.

Chip and I have gone into deep discussion over this, I was a firm believer that overheated UTHs cause burns until I did some research. There are only 2 cases of "burned" corns that I found on the internet, and Chip suggested it might be from sick or elderly corns. The evidence of burning from a regulated UTH are slim to none.

They may not get burned but they will get cold because they can no longer comfortably rely on their heat source. This has never occurred when I have used heat lamps.



The chances of a light burning out or failing or causing a fire or being knocked off are SO much higher than a UTH or thermostat malfunction. And when the UTH is getting hotter than the thermostat is set at many shut down on their own, preventing the possibility of overheating.

This I do agree with but, if you take proper precautions you will not have it knocked down and you will not have a fire.

Use whatever you want, I just am interested in knowing where you got your facts

I got my facts anecdotally (personal experience), the same way that you did yours.

.
My answers in bold.
I have my experiences and others have theirs. I do realize that many of you have forgotten more about corn snake keeping then I will ever learn. All I am stating is anecdotes and I am not necessarily advocating my methods, only saying that they work for me personally.
I appreciate your input smigon. Truly.

[brindle]

I don't know how the violin smiley guy got there. It put sarcasm in my words when it wasn't intentional.... sorry about that!

[brindle]

I don't mean to argue at all, and I have used lamps with some success (more so with a ball python who needed the extra ambient temps), but I want to address some things.

-A UTH cracking glass would only if happen IF there was no thermostat to regulate. Using unregulated UTHs and heat sources in general are NOT advocated for in the snake and reptile "world".

thermostats malfunction or quit working frequently, I think Chip was actually just discussing this in another thread. I don't regulate my heat lamp and have never had a problem with either fire or distressed snakes.

-You are correct that UTHs do not heat the air, however, I also live in Canada (originally from the REAL far North, not southern Ontario) and I personally can attest that corns still would probably not *need* a heat lamp in the winter, unless you keep your home unbearably cold. To me, unbearably cold is essentially anything less than 70F during the day -- it feels different being at 70F in the winter than in the summer. If your home is too cold, things seize up anyway. But, that is up to personal interpretation.

I do keep my house fairly cool. It is around 70 but can get below that. It's old and some areas of the house are cooler then others.

-I guess it depends what you call maintenance; initial setup may take longer, but you don't have to replace UTHs or thermostats nearly as often as bulbs for lamps. As for wires, you get them either way. There SHOULD be wires - it means you have your probed thermometers in place as well, which is necessary for measuring.

In 5 years I've replaced one bulb.

- I agree that thermostats can malfunction and cause burns. However, if not enough belly heat is provided after a meal, regurges can happen. From what I have seen, regurges tend to be more fatal than burns.

I've never had a regurge. Not. One. Time.

Just my two cents! :crazy01:
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I may disagree but it is with respect :)

[Chip]

I got my facts anecdotally (personal experience), the same way that you did yours.
This line was far more sarcastic than any emoticon. Don't really care to counter your points again, but use what you like and happy snake keeping.

[Nanci]

I don't know how the violin smiley guy got there. It put sarcasm in my words when it wasn't intentional.... sorry about that!

I just had the flame-thrower guy turn up in one of my posts- and I VERY rarely use emoticons, and never that one. And it was in a response that wasn't meant to be incendiary, but that kind of made it that way!

[brindle]

I have. Multiple times, especially with bulbs. If you keep enough herps long enough, you most likely will have a fire or at least near-fire too.

Im certain your test sample is MUCH larger then mine. Hence the higher incidence of fire.

Not true. There are a myriad of ways something flammable and the bulb can get too close to each other.

true. But nothing precautions can't take care of.

Frequently? Disagree.


Sure they do. There is warm air over the heating element. And if you want to trap more in, a simple piece of cardboard over a portion of the top can insulate well.
I would argue that changing bulbs is the greatest "maintenance" involved with heating an enclosure either way. And thermostats and rheostats are no more needed with belly heat than radiant heat.

I've never used a thermostat. I didn't even know about them until joining this forum. My snakes have been indisputably content and well taken care of without them although I am open to purchasing one.

Not in corn snakes.
It really isn't just anecdotes. I can show you the wattage difference. Drying of the cage each way can be demonstrated. I doubt you'll find many people who have kept snakes long that use lights, and I'd be stunned if you could find a professional breeder of corns with a single bulb in their facility. There is a reason for this. They are inefficient, a greater fire risk, and dry out the enclosure too much.

all of the professional breeders that I know use heat lamps as well. They are all in Canada but I don't know if that makes a difference.

No, they aren't the devil, and most of us who were keeping snakes back in the dark ages started this way. We recommend pads, because they are safer, more efficient, and don't dry the enclosure out nearly as badly. If you are happy running lamps, knock yourself out. But don't expect those of us who prefer UTH's not to suggest them and say why. :)[

I totally understand where you are coming from and I may even be persuaded to purchase a thermostat and UTH at some point but I'm of the frame of mind- if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's been working thus far...


My responses in bold.

[brindle]

This line was far more sarcastic than any emoticon. Don't really care to counter your points again, but use what you like and happy snake keeping.

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. It is the truth.

[Chip]

May I ask how many professional breeders you know in Canada and who they are?

[brindle]

May I ask how many professional breeders you know in Canada and who they are?

You may........

[TyeW]

I don't know any breeders that use heat lamps for their corn snakes. I've never used them for corns so can't really comment on how well they work.. But they do dry out enclosures a lot.

[brindle]

I don't know any breeders that use heat lamps for their corn snakes. I've never used them for corns so can't really comment on how well they work.. But they do dry out enclosures a lot.

Technically I'm sure that heat lamps do dry things out a bit. Yet, I've never had a bad shed using one. I've had ALL bad sheds when using a UTH although I can't say for sure if the UTH was the reason... an odd coincidence nonetheless.

[ashleynicole]

Risk of fire is pretty prevalent with both under tank heaters and heat lamps. Under tank heaters can melt and catch fire if they short out. And unless you need a specific light spectrum for certain reptiles, you can use any household bulb. Ceramic heat emitters are also great to use depending on your reptile.

Being someone who keeps several different types of reptiles, different heat sources are necessary for different situations and species. As long as your heat and humidity are within range for the species then you can use whichever you prefer.

[The Cat]

What's going on with the snake this thread is about? Has she shed or eaten yet? Any updates?

[smigon]

What's going on with the snake this thread is about? Has she shed or eaten yet? Any updates?

Yeah, another "post it and leave" post! I asked twice about it, no response.

[smigon]

Risk of fire is pretty prevalent with both under tank heaters and heat lamps.

If fires were prevalent with both kinds of heaters the companies would be out of business. Both have a low risk of fire, in my experience and what I have read and been told by breeders and owners is that the chances for a fire are higher than with a lamp, but not prevalent at all.

[Chip]

You may........

I really don't want to play games, I'd love to know who they are.

[brindle]

I really don't want to play games, I'd love to know who they are.
I'm not one to fling names around on the internet. I doubt you would know them... "professional" is a stretch although their snakes are lovely and in good health. Sorry to be vague

[NH93]

I'm not one to fling names around on the internet. I doubt you would know them... "professional" is a stretch although their snakes are lovely and in good health. Sorry to be vague

It would only be good publicity ;) even small-time breeders can be found on the interwebs.

[Chip]

http://i61.tinypic.com/v5fket.jpg

[brindle]

http://i61.tinypic.com/v5fket.jpg

;) many snakes are illegal in Saskatchewan. Let's put it that way...

[brindle]

It would only be good publicity ;) even small-time breeders can be found on the interwebs.
Not all people want publicity.

[MysticExotics]

"Professional breeders" would indicate that is their main income. There's no professional breeder that would use heat lamps for their heat source. In order to make any sort of real income, you have to have LOTS of animals. Heat lamps are completely impracticle for anyone who has even a moderate number of animals.

Anytime you have a heat source with reptiles, no matter what kind of heat source, you should have a thermostat (or even a rheostat) to adjust the heat level.

*There's not a problem... Until there is a problem *"
Do you really want to risk the safety of your animal(s)?

Anyone who has a business of selling animals would want publicity.

I wouldn't really call someone who is breeding illegal animals a "professional".

[brindle]

"Professional breeders" would indicate that is their main income. There's no professional breeder that would use heat lamps for their heat source. In order to make any sort of real income, you have to have LOTS of animals. Heat lamps are completely impracticle for anyone who has even a moderate number of animals.

Anytime you have a heat source with reptiles, no matter what kind of heat source, you should have a thermostat (or even a rheostat) to adjust the heat level.

*There's not a problem... Until there is a problem *"
Do you really want to risk the safety of your animal(s)?

I wouldn't really call someone who is breeding illegal animals a "professional".
The adage *There's not a problem.... until there's a problem* is applicable to the usage of UTH and thermostats as well as heat lamps. Everything in life is a chance. I will take the chance with heat lamps, yes.
Fire away :uzi:

[MysticExotics]

The risks are higher without a regulator for you heat source, as well as fire danger on the heat lamp.

They're your animals, do as you wish.
I hope for the sake of the animals in your care that luck is on your side.

[brindle]

For the record. At the moment I'm using an unregulated UTH on my hypo (or whatever the hell he is). It's the small sized Tropical zoo med (I think). No problems so far, although his first shed wasn't the best...
Eats great, poops fine, active at dusk/dawn and a bit at night time, docile but active while handled, digests well (as in no regurges)... just normal corn snake behaviour.
In the wild these guys wouldn't consistently be at 87 degree F belly heat at all times of the day. It would fluctuate quite rapidly all throughout a period of 24 hrs.
I'm not particularly concerned. And, if there becomes a problem I will admit it and alter his environment to suit his needs.
As I said earlier, I don't necessarily advocate the methods I choose to utilize but I don't worry myself while using them.

[brindle]

The risks are higher without a regulator for you heat source, as well as fire danger on the heat lamp.

They're your animals, do as you wish.
I hope for the sake of the animals in your care that luck is on your side.
I appreciate your concern. :)

[MysticExotics]

For the record. At the moment I'm using an unregulated UTH on my hypo (or whatever the hell he is). It's the small sized Tropical zoo med (I think). No problems so far, although his first shed wasn't the best...
Eats great, poops fine, active at dusk/dawn and a bit at night time, docile but active while handled, digests well (as in no regurges)... just normal corn snake behaviour.
In the wild these guys wouldn't consistently be at 87 degree F belly heat at all times of the day. It would fluctuate quite rapidly all throughout a period of 24 hrs.
I'm not particularly concerned. And, if there becomes a problem I will admit it and alter his environment to suit his needs.
As I said earlier, I don't necessarily advocate the methods I choose to utilize but I don't worry myself while using them.
The main point about the thermostat is not to keep it at a consistent temperature, it is to prevent it from becoming too hot and injuring or killing your animal.
There are t-stats out there that have night drops as well.

That's a big gamble you're taking.

[brindle]

The main point about the thermostat is not to keep it at a consistent temperature, it is to prevent it from becoming too hot and injuring or killing your animal.
There are t-stats out there that have night drops as well.

That's a big gamble you're taking.
I just had someone state that corns don't typically remain on the heat sources that are over heating.... I would think, that if they were to get too hot, they would move. He has plenty of room to move around!
My my, I'm getting enough of a verbal spanking that I might just run and buy the nearest thermostat I can get my hands on lol!
I really do appreciate the concern MysticExotics. I may/may not purchase a thermostat. I may or may not stick with heating lamps. It's summer right now so I don't have the heat source on very much anyway, unless he's digesting.
I'll make a final decision more at the end of August or so.

[NH93]

"Professional breeders" would indicate that is their main income. There's no professional breeder that would use heat lamps for their heat source. In order to make any sort of real income, you have to have LOTS of animals. Heat lamps are completely impracticle for anyone who has even a moderate number of animals.

Anytime you have a heat source with reptiles, no matter what kind of heat source, you should have a thermostat (or even a rheostat) to adjust the heat level.

*There's not a problem... Until there is a problem *"
Do you really want to risk the safety of your animal(s)?

Anyone who has a business of selling animals would want publicity.

I wouldn't really call someone who is breeding illegal animals a "professional".


Yep, yep, yep.

Actually, most - dare I say, ALL - breeders I know use heat tape, as it is most convenient and inexpensive to use for rack systems. I would think it's not all that different than UTHes though... at least, compared to heat lamps! :p

[NH93]

I just had someone state that corns don't typically remain on the heat sources that are over heating.... I would think, that if they were to get too hot, they would move. He has plenty of room to move around!
My my, I'm getting enough of a verbal spanking that I might just run and buy the nearest thermostat I can get my hands on lol!
I really do appreciate the concern MysticExotics. I may/may not purchase a thermostat. I may or may not stick with heating lamps. It's summer right now so I don't have the heat source on very much anyway, unless he's digesting.
I'll make a final decision more at the end of August or so.

I know there is one member on here in particular that has not had any concerns with an unregulated thermostat. However, I DEFINITELY recommend one. ESPECIALLY for any other species of snake. They don't always know it's happening until it has happened.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/png_lovebirds/AneryBelly2001Medium.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNHIilaQGAIpzJp_LQFAzFuXIY82elo 0FW5FvrAL8b1c61jLqk
https://home.comcast.net/~mickeysnightmare/MNHealth/Injury/Thermal%20Burn/Burn%20Belly%209-7-11%20lg.jpg

Just some of what can happen with unregulated heat sources (UTH).

[MysticExotics]

Yep, yep, yep.

Actually, most - dare I say, ALL - breeders I know use heat tape, as it is most convenient and inexpensive to use for rack systems. I would think it's not all that different than UTHes though... at least, compared to heat lamps! :p

I know a number of breeders who use ambient heat, myself included.
I heat the whole room.

And I use a thermostat, with a backup thermostat to regulate the room temperature.

[Chip]

I just had someone state that corns don't typically remain on the heat sources that are over heating.... I would think, that if they were to get too hot, they would move. He has plenty of room to move around!
My my, I'm getting enough of a verbal spanking that I might just run and buy the nearest thermostat I can get my hands on lol!
I really do appreciate the concern MysticExotics. I may/may not purchase a thermostat. I may or may not stick with heating lamps. It's summer right now so I don't have the heat source on very much anyway, unless he's digesting.
I'll make a final decision more at the end of August or so.

The concern with corns is not with the hot spot getting too hot, as much as the whole enclosure overheating. Most tubs are simply not ventilated enough to allow that much heat escape for a reason -we try to keep heat in. If there is ample air flow (and the room is adequately cool), the ambient temps shouldn't get dangerously hot -but in most rack systems there is not.

And you aren't getting a verbal spanking -you simply made statements that aren't accurate, defended them like they were your baby, then backed off. As has been said, they are yours -keep them as you wish, and I don't doubt that you care about them. I'm not really concerned with trying to change your mind. It's new hobbyists reading your advice I don't want going down a potentially bad road "because they saw it on CS.com."

[Nanci]

I'm trying to find research, and I have to get out of work right now!!! but I found this so far...

Because corn snakes inhabit a wide variety of temperate
ecosystems, they would also be expected to withdraw
their tails in response to hot noxious stimuli. By use of a
noxious thermal stimulus technique, the antinociceptive
effects of opioid drugs should be apparent in this species.
In the corn snakes of our study, however, baseline tail
withdrawal latencies were highly variable, butorphanolassociated
increases (from baseline value) in withdrawal
latency were evident only following administration of
markedly high doses, and antinociceptive effects of morphine
were not detected. These findings were surprising
and raise important questions regarding how snakes
process different nociceptive sensory afferent inputs. For
example, captive snakes may develop thermal burns if
allowed to bask on faulty, overheated, in-cage heating
units. On the basis of such anecdotal observations, we
hypothesize that snakes may process sensory inputs
from noxious thermal stimuli and those from noxious
stimuli such as electric shock, surgical incision, visceral
tissue damage, or inflammation differently. Alternatively,
the evolution of limblessness in snakes may have dramatically
altered spinal opioid receptor expression and
function. However, to our knowledge, there is no information
in the veterinary medical literature regarding the
presence or function of spinal opioid receptors in any
snake species.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.233.2.267

[MysticExotics]

The concern with corns is not with the hot spot getting too hot, as much as the whole enclosure overheating. Most tubs are simply not ventilated enough to allow that much heat escape for a reason -we try to keep heat in. If there is ample air flow (and the room is adequately cool), the ambient temps shouldn't get dangerously hot -but in most rack systems there is not.

And you aren't getting a verbal spanking -you simply made statements that aren't accurate, defended them like they were your baby, then backed off. As has been said, they are yours -keep them as you wish, and I don't doubt that you care about them. I'm not really concerned with trying to change your mind. It's new hobbyists reading your advice I don't want going down a potentially bad road "because they saw it on CS.com."

This is more of my concern as well.

[brindle]

I've never once said *do as I do*. Heat lamps have never caused ME problems. So far this unregulated heat pad hasn't caused ME problems. I will continue with heat lamps until they have proven themselves dangerous or ineffective.
If they became dangerous or ineffective, I would purchase a UTH with a thermostat.
That is not backtracking, it's what I've been saying all along but thank you for that Chip.

[NH93]

I've never once said *do as I do*. Heat lamps have never caused ME problems. So far this unregulated heat pad hasn't caused ME problems. I will continue with heat lamps until they have proven themselves dangerous or ineffective.
If they became dangerous or ineffective, I would purchase a UTH with a thermostat.
That is not backtracking, it's what I've been saying all along but thank you for that Chip.

That's fine! You can do what YOU like - in all seriousness, I hope that doesn't sound hostile in any way - however, the problem is when people Google things and this forum pops up and all they see is one post in one thread... yes, the person with the search button is careless perhaps for not looking for more (and not every person is this way) but it's important to pass along the most up-to-date information that we can because of this reason! At least that is what I am thinking. I'm sure there are other reasons.
Unfortunately not everyone creates accounts and can read it all ;)

[brindle]

I'm trying to find research, and I have to get out of work right now!!! but I found this so far...

Because corn snakes inhabit a wide variety of temperate
ecosystems, they would also be expected to withdraw
their tails in response to hot noxious stimuli. By use of a
noxious thermal stimulus technique, the antinociceptive
effects of opioid drugs should be apparent in this species.
In the corn snakes of our study, however, baseline tail
withdrawal latencies were highly variable, butorphanolassociated
increases (from baseline value) in withdrawal
latency were evident only following administration of
markedly high doses, and antinociceptive effects of morphine
were not detected. These findings were surprising
and raise important questions regarding how snakes
process different nociceptive sensory afferent inputs. For
example, captive snakes may develop thermal burns if
allowed to bask on faulty, overheated, in-cage heating
units. On the basis of such anecdotal observations, we
hypothesize that snakes may process sensory inputs
from noxious thermal stimuli and those from noxious
stimuli such as electric shock, surgical incision, visceral
tissue damage, or inflammation differently. Alternatively,
the evolution of limblessness in snakes may have dramatically
altered spinal opioid receptor expression and
function. However, to our knowledge, there is no information
in the veterinary medical literature regarding the
presence or function of spinal opioid receptors in any
snake species.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.233.2.267
Thank you for this Nanci... I just noticed it. It may change how I keep my snakes... much appreciated.

[vetusvates]

I'm trying to find research, and I have to get out of work right now!!! but I found this so far...

Because corn snakes inhabit a wide variety of temperate
ecosystems, they would also be expected to withdraw
their tails in response to hot noxious stimuli. By use of a
noxious thermal stimulus technique, the antinociceptive
effects of opioid drugs should be apparent in this species.
In the corn snakes of our study, however, baseline tail
withdrawal latencies were highly variable, butorphanolassociated
increases (from baseline value) in withdrawal
latency were evident only following administration of
markedly high doses, and antinociceptive effects of morphine
were not detected. These findings were surprising
and raise important questions regarding how snakes
process different nociceptive sensory afferent inputs. For
example, captive snakes may develop thermal burns if
allowed to bask on faulty, overheated, in-cage heating
units. On the basis of such anecdotal observations, we
hypothesize that snakes may process sensory inputs
from noxious thermal stimuli and those from noxious
stimuli such as electric shock, surgical incision, visceral
tissue damage, or inflammation differently. Alternatively,
the evolution of limblessness in snakes may have dramatically
altered spinal opioid receptor expression and
function. However, to our knowledge, there is no information
in the veterinary medical literature regarding the
presence or function of spinal opioid receptors in any
snake species.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.233.2.267

Wow.
Thanks, Nanci. Excellent reference.
And it coincides perfectly with what I learned in college ages ago. Snakes (and other reptiles, I would suppose), I was taught by professors including prominent herpetologists---do not perceive cold and heat the way we do.

[smigon]

I'm trying to find research, and I have to get out of work right now!!! but I found this so far...


Awesome info, thanks for posting!