Coral Snow Corn Not Eating

[SerpentLady4]

I have a beautiful marked extremely docile 5/1/2 month old hatchling coral snow corn from SMR. He arrived on 09/23 and hasn't eaten since. He has a cool and warm hide. I was told by Don to keep his warm side in the hide between 81-84. I have been using an over head light but been having problems with getting between the mentioned temperature. I had to force feed him last night. And Don hasn't been very helpful and he's stopped answering my email. What should I do

[crackerhead]

Addendum:
I just went through your previous posts and saw you state that a Coral Snow you got from SMR is eating pinks http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137909. And a seperate post you mention a 10 gallon set-up and an animal that gets fed pinks every five to seven days. Are these posts referencing the same animal you purchased from SMR?

Don Soderberg and "not being helpful" are opposite statements in my experience.
Please describe your set-up? How are you determining the temp? Heating a corn snake is so much easier and more efficient when using an UTH. This is especially true if you have this animal in a ten gallon tank. Lamp heating can cause the tank to be way too hot and then there is the issue of no cool end.
How are you feeding this corn? Deli cups usually work best in feeding hatchling. The confined space helps them to focus on finding and eating.
I live in Naperville, one town north of Bolingbrook. I'd be happy to help you. Maybe come by and check out your set-up and offer advice on care.

Terri

[SerpentLady4]

The first coral snow didn't make it impaction from aspen bedding killed him. This is his older sibling replacement. Don told me that the mini hide needs to be between 81-84. The UT gives a temperature of 90. I have a thermometer in the hide, and above attached to a temperature controller. There is also a cool side too. Yes I have tried the deli cup twice and it hasn't worked. He arrived on the 23rd of last month and he hasn't eaten since. I had to start his gut somehow so I forced fed. I don't think that my husband will approve of your visit

[crackerhead]

I'd say get rid of the lamp if your temps are 90F anywhere in a ten gallon tank. Heat extremes, as well as too cold, will cause an animals not to eat. This is especially true with hatchlings.

Terri

[SerpentLady4]

It's not the lamp UT's give temperature of 90 I checked with the thermometer inside the mini hide and with the UT alone the temperature read 90's. When I turned off the UT and just the light the temperature dropped

[SODERBERGD]

I have six emails where I asked you what the temperature IN the hide was (INSIDE) and six times you told me the temperature. I kept saying that the only way to find out was to put a thermometer IN the hide. Finally the seventh time, you confessed that you were measuring temperatures ABOVE the hide and that was surely close enough (while you were wondering why the snake would not stay in the hide). When I asked why you had sand in the bottom of the cage you said your last snake died of aspen impaction. I told you that your hide was "cavernous" and that the snake was probably not staying in it for many reasons (including the absence of a fluffy substrate matter that would have made the inside of the hide cozier and darker inside). I mentioned a UT heater several times in our 25+ emails and FB messages and you never bothered to correct me to say you use a light over the cage. Reading this thread is the first time I discovered you were using an OT light. The bottom line is that I can only help people who answer questions honestly, and who are forth-coming when I keep asking questions about their cage. In my last email, I told you that I cannot help you since you insist on withholding information that was crucial to the welfare of the snake. Now, the six weeks you have wasted via not co-operating has probably jeopardized the chances of saving this snake.

Generally, if a snake is not spending at least 75% of all daytime hours IN the warm hide, the warm hide is WRONG; too hot, too cold, too cavernous, not dark enough, etc. Because the hide you showed me has a large opening that faces the light in the room and because there is nothing in the hide other than 1/2" of sand beneath the snake, the hide was not conducive to "hiding". If they are not staying in the DARK hide with a temperature conducive to appetite and digestion, they will likely not eat (or will puke what they do eat). In one of your emails two days ago when I questioned why you were using sand for a substrate, you said, "to each his own". You never once told me you were using sand, until that day. I agree that you can set up that cage in any fashion you desire, but not when you are expecting me to replace a snake that has an inadequate cage because you declined my advice. In fact, you didn't decline my advice. You just didn't bother to tell me you were ignoring it.

You only paid $35 to cover shipping for this free snake that I sent because the other one died from aspen impaction (after you successfully fed it many times). I did not have to replace the other snake since you had it so long and fed it so many times. The snake you are referring to in this thread ate for me for many months without refusing a single meal, prior to being shipped to you. Over 30 emails back and forth between us, Jennifer, and a FREE SALMON SNOW MOTLEY does not justify you saying that I have not been helpful.

[SerpentLady4]

Stop putting words in my mouth, I didn't say sand. The first died from impaction from aspen bedding and that is why I use cage lining. I do have a thermometer inside the mini hide and I do check the temperature it is around 83 (it reads between 80&84). I have the temperature during the day and during the night at 82°. I also have a cool side. I read with the UT alone the temperature reads 91° inside the hide. So I just use the light and it is dark underneath with no light. This one didn't spit out the food.

[SerpentLady4]

I didn't show you a large hide he has a baby hide with small opening

[SODERBERGD]

I didn't show you a large hide he has a baby hide with small opening

Since your goal is to get the snake to eat, may I post the picture of the cage that you sent to me?

[SODERBERGD]

Then, perhaps others will be able to offer suggestions of how you can change the cage to get the snake to eat?

[SerpentLady4]

Look, I don't know what your problem is. I have five others from you. The first two were raised on liner and are doing extremely well. The other three the same way on cage liner and doing extremely well too. Liner is easier to clean than aspen bedding and since you don't have coverage for death by impaction from aspen bedding. I don't want to take any chances with this one dying like the other did

[zorro]

Look, I don't know what your problem is. I have five others from you. The first two were raised on liner and are doing extremely well. The other three the same way on cage liner and doing extremely well too. Liner is easier to clean than aspen bedding and since you don't have coverage for death by impaction from aspen bedding. I don't want to take any chances with this one dying like the other did

Can I ask what cage lining is? Is it like newspaper?
Thanks
John

[MysticExotics]

I cannot see the picture for some reason, but from the sounds of it, you have an undertank heater AND an overhead heat fixture, is that correct? (In a 10 gallon tank?)
If so, I can tell you right now, that is too much heat and is most likely the reason your baby is not eating for you.

Saying that Don is not helpful sets off warning bells for me, because he has been nothing but helpful to me, and I have bugged him a few times for information.

Terri has also offered you very good information, and it is very nice of her to offer to drive to you to help. She is a well-known, well-respected member of the Cornsnake community as well.

If you are not going to be open to suggestions on proper care, from people who know what they are talking about, then you have no one but yourself to blame if/when that baby dies.

[Nanci]

1. Don Soderberg is the most patient of teachers, and I can't imagine the lengths you have gone to to cause an alienation between you two.

2. Terri offering to come help you sort out your set-up is invaluable. I can assure you that she is not a serial killer, and you would be perfectly safe in allowing her to help you. To turn down an offer like that is to turn away a resource that cannot be found on-line, or in a book.

3. Yes, you have the right to set up your snake in the manner you choose, and it is true that many people choose simple newspaper for substrate for the reasons you outline. Still- the baby is not comfortable, which is reflected in its refusal to eat. Since we don't have a photo of the set up, I would suggest that to make the baby feel safe, it would be best to offer several tight, dark hides, like toilet paper or paper towel tubes, squashed flat. Toothpaste boxes. Things like that. If you have store-bought hides, you can fill those with crumpled paper or shredded paper. Then, if you put silk or plastic vines on the sides and the floor, she should feel a lot safer. I think others have covered the heating/temp measuring subject well.

[Chip]

Can I ask what cage lining is? Is it like newspaper?
Thanks
John
From looking at the OP's avatar pic, I'm guessing AstroTurf.

Saying that Don is not helpful sets off warning bells for me, because he has been nothing but helpful to me, and I have bugged him a few times for information.


I've been bugging him with questions since at least 1999. To say he is helpful and patient is an understatement.

And I also agree that your husband shouldn't be worried about a woman coming over with great experience in the hobby to try to save your pet.

I would not have suggested force feeding. A one month fast is alarming for a hatching, but not time to force feed -at least on a snake that has voluntarily fed previously. You will typically really set them back by doing that. Once you know that the cage and temp gradient is right, try offering boiled, scented, live and other tricks, but force feeding is a last resort.

[SODERBERGD]

Jennifer, since you sent the picture to me, I cannot show it to everyone without your prior consent. The picture shows less than 1/4" of sand in the bottom.

May I post the picture on this thread?

I also re-read my post and see that you have only had it four months. That's still a dangerously long time for fasting in such a small snake. Regarding force-feeding, that is something nobody but experts should do. As others have cited, often when you force-feed, the stress is akin to taking one step forward by getting calories in the snake, but two steps back from the stress. If this snake pukes that pinky, your world is about to turn upside-down in the realm of stress for you. The other reason force-feeding was not indicated for this snake is that you have not yet stabilized the hide and cage temps. Puking this mouse is almost a foregone conclusion.

We are here to help you. Me, I give up, but everyone participating in this thread (and others who WILL) can help you. But they can only help you if you at least try to follow advice (and accurately report cage conditions).

May I post the picture of your cage?

[ghosthousecorns]

If aspen impaction worries you, why not just feed in a separate enclosure? I keep all my babies in aspen, they eat in deli cups. Sometimes they have to be left in the deli cup covered and overnight if they are shy.

I have spent some time talking on the phone with Don about his terrazzo snakes and he was nothing but helpful to me, even though I wasn't even a paying customer. If you won't let him show us the picture and you won't let someone come over then how is anyone supposed to help.

Also force feeding is a LAST resort, can hurt and traumatize a baby snake and put it off from food.

[SerpentLady4]

I have a tiny baby hide that is extremely tight and dark. Right now the bedding will arrive on Tuesday and the UT on Wednesday. The one I have now bit the dust and doesn't warm up at all. Before it bit the dust the temperature inside their hide read between 80-84. The rest of the cage is holding at 82

[SerpentLady4]

My heat sources are both attached to a temperature controller that is set for between 81-84 and will.shut when set temperature is reached

[Chip]

Can Don post the picture of your viv, please?

[SerpentLady4]

Jennifer, since you sent the picture to me, I cannot show it to everyone without your prior consent. The picture shows less than 1/4" of sand in the bottom.

May I post the picture on this thread?

I also re-read my post and see that you have only had it four months. That's still a dangerously long time for fasting in such a small snake. Regarding force-feeding, that is something nobody but experts should do. As others have cited, often when you force-feed, the stress is akin to taking one step forward by getting calories in the snake, but two steps back from the stress. If this snake pukes that pinky, your world is about to turn upside-down in the realm of stress for you. The other reason force-feeding was not indicated for this snake is that you have not yet stabilized the hide and cage temps. Puking this mouse is almost a foregone conclusion.

We are here to help you. Me, I give up, but everyone participating in this thread (and others who WILL) can help you. But they can only help you if you at least try to follow advice (and accurately report cage conditions).

May I post the picture of your cage?
The aspen bedding arrives on Tuesday and the new UT on Wednesday. The one on there now is died but before it did the temperature was inside between 80-84 and that wasn't sand you were seeing that was liner

[Zeina]

I think this might be a hopeless case unfortunately.


Everyone on here is so sweet and helpful and caring- Reading all your replies just breaks my heart because I can see how much each one of you cares about the snake's welfare...

I feel the owner of this poor, unfortunate snake is just trying to be difficult, cause rifts and refuses to cooperate on purpose. Seriously. No one is that rude on accident.
The good guys can't win every battle =(

Terri, I would totally let you come to my house and school us on snakes =)

[SerpentLady4]

Well I am doing what everyone is telling me but right now there isn't anything I can do cause the aspen bedding doesn't arrive till Tuesday and the UT on Wednesday

[crackerhead]

Jennifer, there is a Wheaton AAE show on Sat. Nov. 1 and if you wanted I'd be willing to meet you there and answer any questions in person. I vend at pretty much every show. You could even bring the animal with you and I could give feeding it a try there. Other people have brought non-eating animals to me at the show and we have had success. (there is easy access to live as well as F/T) I understand your concern about having a stranger in your home, so this is a safe neutral meeting place. You could ask lots of people for their thoughts in person. Sometimes it's easier to do things face to face so there is no confusion. The show is a great place to meet like minded people with tons of herp experience. It is great to have a resource like that so close to home. Plus you can buy all the supplies you might need there.

Terri

[SerpentLady4]

Well I am getting the aspen bedding and UT on Wednesday and Tuesday I don't want to stress him out anymore than he is and it is supposed to be cold that day

[crackerhead]

Okay. If you change your mind the offer is there. The show is every month, first Saturday and the third Sunday.
Good Luck,
Terri

[zorro]

I have a tiny baby hide that is extremely tight and dark. Right now the bedding will arrive on Tuesday and the UT on Wednesday. The one I have now bit the dust and doesn't warm up at all. Before it bit the dust the temperature inside their hide read between 80-84. The rest of the cage is holding at 82

When you get your new UT heater make sure the thermostat's probe for the thermostat is either on top of the glass (underneath the aspen) where the UT is located or right on top of the aspen on the warm side. Also your thermometer should be at the level of the top of the aspen (if you stick it on the side of the tank). Since that is where the snake lives it will give a better indication of his living conditions.
John

[SerpentLady4]

I have the thermometer and the probe both atop with a thermometer on the inside of the mini hide

[SerpentLady4]

Okay. If you change your mind the offer is there. The show is every month, first Saturday and the third Sunday.
Good Luck,
Terri
Ok, I tell you what after I have his tank reset up I am going to give him a week to adjust. If that doesn't work well then you can come and see what you can do for him like bring a live pinky with you.

[zorro]

I have the thermometer and the probe both atop with a thermometer on the inside of the mini hide
When you say "atop" you mean at the level of the bedding not at the top of the tank, right?
John

[SerpentLady4]

Yes and with the probe set at the low 80's the temperature inside is still in the 90's

[zorro]

Yes and with the probe set at the low 80's the temperature inside is still in the 90's

With several hides and 3/4 inch of aspen he can find the perfect place. Sounds like you are on your way to correct this problem.
Good luck
John

[SerpentLady4]

You say 3/4 inches others are telling me 3 inches

[zorro]

You say 3/4 inches others are telling me 3 inches

That seems like a lot but everyone does it alottle different, I have always used 3/4 to an inch of aspen. I think the key point in my mind is using aspen bedding, it is by far the best.
John

[SerpentLady4]

I am having problems my temperature controller is set to between 81-84 but the temperature inside the hide is in the 70's.

[Myca]

I like a nice thick layer of Aspen. Of course, it makes it a tad difficult to find them in it but they seem happy. Hope your baby makes it. I have some wonderful snakes from Don. He is a great guy and very patient too. My lovely Journey came from Don. I also got two lovely Motley Sunglows from Don.

[SODERBERGD]

First, an apology to Jennifer. Upon examining the photograph more closely (wish she would let you all see it) I see that I AM mistaken about it being sand in the bottom of the cage. I'm terribly sorry, Jennifer, for saying you used Sand.

Jennifer, in the interest of success, because you won't let everyone see the picture (to see that the thermostat probe is two inches under the lid of the 10-gallon tank, on the back glass) I'll tell you (again) that the probe and/or thermometer must be where the snake is. You have it in your mind that a 10-gallon tank is the same temperature everywhere therein. You now see how wrong you have been all these weeks, by setting the thermostat for low 80sF but achieving 70F on the cage floor (which is also on the floor of the room--the coldest place in any home). As I said to you many times, there is only one place in the cage where temperature matters, and place is where the snake spends most of its captive life IN the cage. Had you shown the picture to everyone, the first advice you would have received was that you don't control the temperature on your front porch if you are living IN the house. That analogy is parallel to putting the thermostat at the ceiling of the cage when the snake is on the floor of the cage.

Not the entire picture, here is a portion of the cage pic that shows the cage mat that I incorrectly perceived as sand. I'm very sorry for incorrectly saying it was sand, Jennifer.

[SerpentLady4]

First, an apology to Jennifer. Upon examining the photograph more closely (wish she would let you all see it) I see that I AM mistaken about it being sand in the bottom of the cage. I'm terribly sorry, Jennifer, for saying you used Sand.

Jennifer, in the interest of success, because you won't let everyone see the picture (to see that the thermostat probe is two inches under the lid of the 10-gallon tank, on the back glass) I'll tell you (again) that the probe and/or thermometer must be where the snake is. You have it in your mind that a 10-gallon tank is the same temperature everywhere therein. You now see how wrong you have been all these weeks, by setting the thermostat for low 80sF but achieving 70F on the cage floor (which is also on the floor of the room--the coldest place in any home). As I said to you many times, there is only one place in the cage where temperature matters, and place is where the snake spends most of its captive life IN the cage. Had you shown the picture to everyone, the first advice you would have received was that you don't control the temperature on your front porch if you are living IN the house. That analogy is parallel to putting the thermostat at the ceiling of the cage when the snake is on the floor of the cage.

Not the entire picture, here is a portion of the cage pic that shows the cage mat that I incorrectly perceived as sand. I'm very sorry for incorrectly saying it was sand, Jennifer.
Ty you very much Don,
On Tuesday the aspen bedding will be arriving and Wednesday the new UT. I will put the probe either on the glass below the bedding or right above the bedding. It has been spending some time on warm side and sometimes on the cool side. I hope this will bring backs it's appetite.

[SODERBERGD]

I know that many people recommend putting the probe on the glass floor of the cage--directly above the UT heater, but I do not. You would have to calculate what temperature would be rendered via the aspen substrate buffer, and that could change from season to season. Therefore, as ugly as it looks, I recommend putting the probe where the snake actually is (parallel again to not having your home HVAC thermostat out on the front porch). Then, until the man-made electronics fail, your theromstat will control the UT heater to the exact temp you seek for the snake (plus or minus two degrees F. on both ends of reaction to thermostat) VS. your temp equation that has the variable of changing temps in the room. They're expensive, but proportional thermostats control exact temps via delivering the exact amount of electricity to achieve the desired temperature at the probe. The kind you use (most common in the hobby) will tell the heat tape to be ON or OFF, but it will continue to rise for a degree or two, and vice-versa, the UT heater will need reaction time to heating up again, therefore, falling one or two degrees before delivering needed heat. The thermostat you have should work well for your needs. Just remember the golden rule of temperature for snake cages. The ONLY place in the cage that matters--in the realm of temperature--is the snake's body. Since the snake desires to be hidden, you therefore control the temp INSIDE that hide. It can be two to five degrees warmer or cooler literally on the outside wall of that thin hide. Especially since your cage is on the cold floor.

Again, Jennifer, sorry to have falsely presumed you had sand in the cage. You kept saying you didn't, but I was naively believing my eyes over your testimony.

[crackerhead]

Wow, that does look like sand! Is the liner one of those Exo Terra Sand Mats? They do a great job faking sand and stone.
Good thing you are swapping it out for Aspen. The company doesn't rate it for use with a UTH because you can't control the heat well. Most people use those for geckos. The Aspen will be much easier.

Terri

[SerpentLady4]

I know that many people recommend putting the probe on the glass floor of the cage--directly above the UT heater, but I do not. You would have to calculate what temperature would be rendered via the aspen substrate buffer, and that could change from season to season. Therefore, as ugly as it looks, I recommend putting the probe where the snake actually is (parallel again to not having your home HVAC thermostat out on the front porch). Then, until the man-made electronics fail, your theromstat will control the UT heater to the exact temp you seek for the snake (plus or minus two degrees F. on both ends of reaction to thermostat) VS. your temp equation that has the variable of changing temps in the room. They're expensive, but proportional thermostats control exact temps via delivering the exact amount of electricity to achieve the desired temperature at the probe. The kind you use (most common in the hobby) will tell the heat tape to be ON or OFF, but it will continue to rise for a degree or two, and vice-versa, the UT heater will need reaction time to heating up again, therefore, falling one or two degrees before delivering needed heat. The thermostat you have should work well for your needs. Just remember the golden rule of temperature for snake cages. The ONLY place in the cage that matters--in the realm of temperature--is the snake's body. Since the snake desires to be hidden, you therefore control the temp INSIDE that hide. It can be two to five degrees warmer or cooler literally on the outside wall of that thin hide. Especially since your cage is on the cold floor.

Again, Jennifer, sorry to have falsely presumed you had sand in the cage. You kept saying you didn't, but I was naively believing my eyes over your testimony.
Apologies accepted,
Ok if not on top of the glass then what about right above the bedding and inside the hide won't work cause you wanted me to put a thermometer inside the hide and that is what I did

[SerpentLady4]

Ok I just laid down three inches of bedding and there's a thermometer inside the hide. He has two non warm hides and tomorrow I will be getting a temperature gun

[HVani]

Good luck. The only other thing I can offer is to clutter up the tank. I have an extreme okeetee from Don and his tank is littered with toilet paper/paper towel rolls and fake vines. It's not pretty but he seems really comfortable in it. Once he's bigger he will have more permanent hides but for not these work.

I also feed him in a deli cup not only to prevent him from swallowing substrate, but also so he doesn't get distracted and wander away from the pinkie.

[SerpentLady4]

His tank is cluttered Don thinks that his stomach has shut down and he is too far gone to be saved

[Nanci]

Maybe it's time to accept Terri's offer of help.

[SerpentLady4]

I just spoke to Don, and he says it is probably because he isn't used to the aspen bedding and extra hides and to try again in a few days

[SerpentLady4]

Don wants me to feed him one day which I thought were small pinky cause that is what he told me he fed the hatchling. When I asked he said small not extra small pinks

[Gayle]

The other snake that died is pictured on cage liner not aspen?? How could it die from eating some aspen?? Did you read the thread that Nanci has for non feeders. Good info!

[albertagirl]

I think Nanci's non-feeder info is for brand new hatchlings. If I read this thread correctly this is a snake that was eating well prior to this. There may still be info that applies, but I don't think the problem here is that the baby doesn't know food (or whatever the explanation for new hatchling non-feeders is), but rather that there is something about the environment that is causing the snake to not want to eat.

Did Terri end up taking this baby? I didn't see her say anywhere that she was going to, but from your other threads it sounded like you believed she was. I assume there were some PM's between you? Just wondering who to watch for updates on whether this poor baby makes it or not.

[SerpentLady4]

Yes she did, we made an exchange. Maurice has gone into rehabilitation

[albertagirl]

Well I hope the best for him, and for your newest addition.

[SerpentLady4]

Meet Buccaneer aka Buckyhttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/02/4e429135774beb59f6d89b439da71fde.jpg

[crackerhead]

For those of you who wanted an update:
Eating F/T pinkies with a bit of an attitude!

185198

[DuxorW]

Yay!!!!!!!

[Nanci]

Hateling Alert!! Glad to hear he's doing well.

[crackerhead]

Hateling for sure! I don't know what I'm doing wrong because when he was with Jennifer she says he was a sweet docile guy. He's bitten me may times and always is rattling his tail in strike mode. LOL Just getting him into his feeding deli is a lesson in blood letting.

Terri

[ghosthousecorns]

Awesome! Cute little guy. I have an amel like that. Out for blood. I like the feisty ones ;)

[Galataya16]

So very glad he's eating and on his way to being a healthy feisty little beastie!! :) He is a very pretty snake!