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The purchase of lone or extra females..

Rich Z
07-01-2002, 04:42 PM
Recently it has come to my attention that another breeder has noted on their website that they will be charging a substantial surcharge for lone or extra females ordered from them. I don't really have any problem about what someone else does with their business, but I have detected a trend that may be resulting from thier policy that may be affecting my business.

Lately I have gotten quite a few orders for, you guessed it, lone females of various cultivars. Maybe this is completely unrelated to the circumstance mentioned above, but it certainly does give me cause to think such may be the case.

I normally make an effort to be as fair as possible, and I guess in return I hope people will be fair to me as well. But is it fair that someone may purchase a pair of cultivars from someone else, and then come to me for those extra females because they can get them cheaper?

Maybe I'm jumping to a conclusion here, and there is no relation to the increase of lone female orders I've been getting, but I need to bring this out into the open and air it out. Certainly some people will have legitimate reasons for only wanting to order a lone female, and I certainly am not going to interrogate someone to determine their motives. That leaves me no real alternative but to either set a blanket policy where I turn away those types of orders, or follow the lead and also charge a surcharge for those lone females as well.

So if I am all wet in this interpretation, please let me know. I have no desire to get people mad at me because of my policies, but then on the other hand, I'm not about to get shafted because of someone else's policy and be left holding the bag with ONLY all males at the end of the season.

Your comments are solicited.

pipatic
07-01-2002, 06:00 PM
well i did have the same problem,people just wanting lone females,granted my collection is alot smaller than yours,
so when selling pairs of corns, or other snakes, people would ask me to sell just female breaking up the pair,
so now ,say the snakes are 100 pr they want just the female ,i say sure 90 for the female 10 for male,they is not fair ,i say not fair to break the pair up,some walk, most still buy. they then have the CHOICE sell the male themself or keep as pair .
dont know if this is a good way or not ,
its something to chew on .lol

SilverTongue
07-01-2002, 06:13 PM
I think going with the PAIR option is best. Lots of people do that. My question would be. I dont want to buy two of the same immeadit family. I know there is tons of inbreeding out there but I will not cator to it. That is one reason I normally buy from 2+ breeders. Basically I would want 2 snakes from 2 different mothers. If that would be an issue then I swould just buy from expos.

Perhaps if requiring a pair set to be bought then offer a lower price. That way you are not getting shafted...and we the buyers will not feel like we are being raped.

pipatic
07-01-2002, 06:20 PM
most of the time they are unrelated, or may have same dad
and some times people want related .
but i find its best to be honest with the buyer ,leting them know if related or not:)

Elaphe_Mo
07-01-2002, 06:28 PM
I think requiring the purchase of a pair or charging extra for the female are both fair policies. Charging extra for the female does allow people who just want one snake as a pet to buy the cultivar they want, though I'm not sure how much of your business comes from these types of purchases.

pipatic
07-01-2002, 06:34 PM
i would say most of the selling would in my case would be to the buyer wanting just a pet, some times 2 pets , and are not bothered about the sex of the snake (s),


ps yes i do sell pairs for less,most of the corns i sell are in the20 --40 range... with normals 10-15.... i dont know what that is in usa dollars ,would'nt have thought much ????

CornsnakeKeeper
07-01-2002, 07:41 PM
I understand where the thought of this happening is coming from, but I don't like the thought of you changing your policies. I wonder how much business Kathy has lost because of that...??? If you also change your policies, whose to say that many of your customers won't start buying from Don? I know that you offer quality and if people want quality, they will pay, just a what if type of thing. Would you also make this requirement carry over to expos/shows? Myself, I have been thinking of maybe buying the females this year and males the next? I didn't decide on anything yet, but I had that option in mind. It really depends. I mean breeders such as Kathy and yourself both have a lot of quality and varient type snakes, but how much extra are people willing to pay to get your quality? I can't lie and say I that I can't find some of the morphs cheaper at a local expo or such. But, you do have that extra quality produced from selective breeding, so, it depends on how much someone wants the merchandise. I think this topic is very interesting and can't wait to hear what some more people have to say.

How many orders do you get for pets? (where they express that they want a pet in email or other)

I also, just wanted to ask if you tend to keep a lot of the males, because looking at your 2001 surplus list, you don't seem to have a lot of either left compare to the thousands you produce.

Alicia
07-01-2002, 07:41 PM
I don't think it's unfair to charge xtra. I do think it's unfair for someone to take advantage and only order from someone because they want to save a little. I ordered in April from another breeder and I ordered some pairs and 1 lone female (I already have a male of the same) I paid the xtra, no problem. My personal feeling is that I will probably make money off that female, as all the females I may breed in the future. If I was just looking for a pet I wouldn't care what sex it was and what ever cultivar I picked you could send me whatever you had more of:D
It's not fair for you or any breeder to be left with all males. Dog and cat breeders have been doing this for a long time (charging xtra for females that is) it doesn't matter if you never plan on breeding that animal or not.

:) Alicia

carol
07-01-2002, 08:03 PM
I am not sure if ordering from you would really save them money, after having to pay for more shipping and box charges, I would just bite the bullet and pay the extra from the other breeder. If it is a problem I would charge more for females. Maybe you can let people mix and match thier morphs? Like a female Candy Cane and a male Lavender, as long as they end up with 1.1 . I don't know why people prefer to have so many females, it is always good to have an extra male around. What if your female is ready NOW and your male is in shed or not in the mood? What if you have 1.3 corns in a certain project and your male dies? or turns up infertile. Plus, with more than one male you can keep your stock unrealated. And last but not least, if I am going to pay the big bucks for something like a Hypo Lavender and I can only afford one, you bet it would be a male so I could spread the love around. (Thats exactly what I did and fell so in love I ended up buying a female also later that season.)
Do what ya gotta do, people who whine about price are not interested in the animals wellfare and wouldn't make good owners anyway. They would probably be the same type that keep their animals in filthy conditions to make keeping them easier and cheaper, Then offer their babies at rock bottom prices that no humane breeder could beat.
Honestly, I think your prices are very reasonable and sometimes a bit too low. IMHO We are talking a lot of slaving producing these animals. It seems you may be better off producing less and charging more.
But that is just my opinion;)

Rich Z
07-01-2002, 08:04 PM
I also, just wanted to ask if you tend to keep a lot of the males, because looking at your 2001 surplus list, you don't seem to have a lot of either left compare to the thousands you produce.

I'm not sure I understand your question. In just about every case, I am heavier in males than females, and this is normally the case every year. The whole point of this thread is because I don't want it to get worse and I am seeing many more instances of people ordering lone or extra females this year than I can ever remember happening in the past. I have been talking to Don Soderberg about this problem and he has seen the same thing happening with him. So something is definitely up.

Now this has always been a slight problem, but it normally will straighten out over a season by the wholesalers ordering a bunch of animals and not really caring what the sexes are. In such cases, they get mostly males and I tell them the lower prices are contingent upon them taking them that way. At shows, I will often take males of something like Hypos het Lavender and lower the price and sell them as regular Hypos. Or Amelanistics het for Butter will have the same thing done. It gripes me to have to do this, but that's the way it goes. At least it helps to equalize the sex ratio on the more valuable animals, but it's at a cost that may not be justified if I look at it long and hard enough.

I have found that I just cannot control the selling of lone females at shows. Tried it and it just doesn't work. So what I will do in some cases is to alter the price to let economics help me out. For instance, for $50 Blizzards, I will mark the males as $40 and the females at $60. That way a pair of them works out to be the same as if the price remained at $50 each. But anyone wanting a Blizzard and the sex doesn't matter will normally buy the cheaper male. And somone whom only wants a female will pay a premium for it. But this is real tough to put on a price list without having it look cluttered. I suppose I could do it, and may give that some more thought before too long.

But it is extremely disheartening to be at a show and have someone pick out a stack of nothing but females to buy. Sure I can refuse them, but it certainly would be bad PR to do that. Heck, at one of the Mid Atlantic shows, I had a bunch of people seemingly determined to only buy female Fluorescent Oranges from me. I resisted saying they had to buy pairs. And most walked away empty handed. This went on for HOURS. Finally I caved in and said OK and darned if there weren't two other people standing there that I had refused to sell lone females to earlier. I thought they were going to string me up. So of course now I had to sell them lone females as well.

Every year I get so aggravated with the shows that I swear I am going to stop doing them and only sell via mail order. Then I have a rash of problems shipping and swear I am going to give up shipping and only sell at shows. Anyone whom thinks this is all fun and games isn't seeing the whole picture, for sure.

Just a day in the life, I guess..................

SilverTongue
07-01-2002, 08:13 PM
well when listing your prices just put
ex. Blizzards hatchlings '02 $40-$60

And when they call or e-mail you to ask why? just say 40 for male and 60 for female.

And another thing do a show in Texas so i can shop from you. I would rather pay money for more snakes than shipping and I cant afford to go to the shows you go to elseware, because i wouldnt have any money for corns after i pay for transportation!

:)

Kevin M
07-01-2002, 09:52 PM
Ouch. Touchy Subject. And to think 9 of the 11 corns I just placed a deposit on with you are females. Doh.

Truth be told, If you had higher prices for females I'd have placed the same exact order with you. As hard as it may be to beleive I try to get 1.1 pairs when I do place an order but it doesnt always work out that way. Ive previously purchased 6 males at a clip from Don. And some months back I purchased 2 males and 2 females from you, Rich. For me at least its just a matter of what I want/need at the time.

Anyway... As far as I'm concerned it's your business to do with as you please Rich. I know you want to be fair but bottom line is your the one stuck with extra males in the end & this is your livelihood so you should do what you think best for yourself. Those of us that really want a specific morph or gender will purchase from you (or Don, or Kathy etc) regardless of price. (within reason of course).

These are just my opinions of course...

I do have one inquiry though. Are we talking specifically within single color morphs or would this apply to an entire order?

Would a 5.5 order of Snows be looked upon the same as an order consisting of say 0.5 Snows & 5.0 Ghosts? Just curious about specifics.

Tim Madsen
07-01-2002, 11:02 PM
I can feel for you Rich on the show subject, I hate selling at them. The only reason I go is to see people I wouldn't see otherwise. As for this female thing I think it is just coincidence. Shipping charges would wipeout any savings. I think it's more likely that people are catching on that one or two males can service a lot of females. I think selling in pairs or charging more for females is about all you can do and I'm not sure that will be effective. You might want to ask that person how it's working out with them. Personally if I wanted an extra female paying a little more wouldn't make any difference. IMHO

Khaman
07-01-2002, 11:43 PM
Well I see both sides of the coin, and I thought something like this might happen when I saw what Kathy decided to do. Who could blame her, assuming that she produced a even 1 to 1 ratio of females to males (I know it does not happen that way but for the point of this...) and if she sold mostly 1.2 orders by October all she would have left is males. The extra price is part deterrent, part job security, part CYOB. .

This is your livelihood, you have every right to protect it . She saw a problem with her business and corrected it if it is affecting your business then you have every right to take what ever measures you see fit to take. The idea of posting two prices works ( I snagged your Html and looked at it on a web editor it looked ok to me.). The only problem I see is if you offer a male for $40 and the female for $60 you lose $10 if they buy just the male.

Who is to say it is a blanket policy. the question I have is Carol, who bought a male Hypo Lav then later bought a female, would she still have to pay an extra fee if she bought both from you at different times?

Those of us that buy from Don, Kathy and you do so for two reasons all of you have a good reputation in the trade and you have animals that are unique or hard to find. I like paying less for something as much as the next guy but I for one don't mind paying a extra fee or you being sexist (placing more value on one sex over another) in pricing.

abell82
07-01-2002, 11:45 PM
I can totally understand that you would not want to be so male heavy at the end of a season.As much as I hate to admit it, it may not be a bad idea to raise the price of females.Here is my question is it possible that people are buying some of the females as they feel a female would be less aggressive than a male?I mean I realize that alot of people are buying in the hopes of breeding, but until you make a name for yourself and produce a certain quantity per year I do not believe there is much chance of getting rich from breeding corn snakes,(If all you are doing, is selling at wholesale prices you won't make much money!).What will you do about trios,and reverse trios?What do you do if you charge more for females, and find you have missexed a male as a female?I prefer shows to mail order as I get to actually SEE 5,6,or10 babies and pick the one I want,usually regardless of sex.

Bippy
07-02-2002, 01:37 AM
I think it's the law of supply and demand. If people are demanding lone females, raise the price of lone females to match the demand.

I realize something like this may not be fair to the people who are buying a lone female to replace one that died, but there are probably alot more people out there who are trying to get 1.6 of some morph just so they can get the most hatchlings for their investment.

Perhaps price the males and females separately from the pair price? That way those truely interested in the females can still buy them separately, and those looking to start a snake harem will be discouraged. It would encourage more people to buy pairs. You'd have to adjust the prices so that the price makes the demand equal the supply, but I could see a triple price listing: male-female-pair working out. Say, like a male XXX would be $50, a female XXX would be $75, and a pair of XXX together would be $120 (a slight discount for buying as a pair).

Dunno if that sounds good to anyone or not, but it's my idea.

Colleen
07-02-2002, 05:35 AM
You gotta do what you gotta do!! I personally am getting orders from you and Kathy, some as pairs and some as singles from both sexes, to be pairs for what I already have. Like someone already mentioned I wanted some unrelated pairs.I don't think that higher priced females would really matter, I would still get what I wanted.

Just to let you know Kathy told me that as long as the M to F ratio was equal and she could chose which morph they can from then she wouldn't charge the extra female fee. I needed to have the right sexes to make my pairs, so I paid more!:)


Colleen

HomeBreeder
07-02-2002, 05:43 AM
Well, being fresh-blood in the "industry" it almost felt to me in the early game as if breeders were temp-sexing their corns for males because of how hard it can be to find a female in the "off-season". Obviously it was (is) more the result of the buyers, not the breeders.

Is there a general ratio that's not 50-50 birth rate?

Regardless of the reason however, Bippy hit the nail on the head - it really comes down to market forces. As the breeder it sounds like it's in your best interest to charge more for females - regardless if your motivation is setting a price that "the market will bare" or simply trying to ensure you don't have a warehouse full of yearling and older males to contend with.

Hrmmm - maybe there's a placee in the market for sex-changing corn snakes :)

j/k

^Curtis

pdrau
07-02-2002, 11:22 AM
I think it isn't as complicated as some might think. Why buy two males and two females when a trio will produce the same amount of offspring. There is always going to be a higher demand for females than males. It isn't just with corn snakes, but with any reptile or any animal for that matter. The more females you have the more offspring you can produce.

If someone is buying your females to resell, then I'd put a stop to that quickly. The likelihood of that happening is slim though.

I think what the industry is seeing is a wave of small breeders coming into the picture and utilizing a higher ratio of females to males to get the most production out of a small setup. In my case for example. I'm looking to have 10 to 20 females in possession to breed in the Spring. I may purchase a few males, but I have two friends who have many males that are letting me use them for stud purposes this year. I'll compensate them in some way, but my point is the only males I'm going to buy are ones that they don't have.

Peter

Rich Z
07-02-2002, 02:59 PM
I guess I should let you all in a little secret that all of the more experienced breeders know, but you never hear about. We all know whom are the beginners are simply by how they order animals from us. Anyone whom orders 1 male and 4 females obviously does not have a clue about what they are doing. What are they going to do if that one male dies right before breeding season? Of suppose he is infertile or just a lackadaisical breeder? It does happen you know. Basically that person is putting all of his eggs in one basket. Even with 1.2, those two clutches you are hoping for STILL hinge on that one male doing the job.

One thing that all experience breeders realize after years of doing this, is that the more males you breed to a female, the greater the chances of 100 percent fertility. When I start a new project, do you really think I keep 1 male and 8 females or something like that? Heck no! I keep the entire clutch. If I cut out any of them, I make sure I have an even ratio of males to females. Three males and three females would be optimum for a double heterozygous genetic project. For triple hets, I would absolutely keep everyone I produce. And when breeding season rolls around when they reach size and maturity, I will breed every female with every male in the project.

I learned this the hard way. A friend of mine whom produced the very first Blizzard Corn (Art Myer) asked me to take his animal (a male) on breeding loan since he didn't have any suitable females for it. I got it early enough that I was able to put it into my mandatory 3 month quarantine, and then the following Spring I bred him to 10 to 12 of my females. Since he was a new line for my work, I used him SOLELY as the breeding male to those females. Guess what? He was a dud stud. Every female I mated him to threw 100 percent slugs. You all can find this out for yourself, and maybe you will be lucky enough that it doesn't happen to you, but do you REALLY want to raise up those babies for two to three years and then have something like that happen to you?

Another example: When the albino Honduran Milk Snakes first became available back in 1995, I was lucky enough to get one of the first pairs available on the market. I specifically asked for two pairs of them, but one pair was all I could get. So I raised them up for three years and on that last brumation period when the female was to come out of the cold sleep and produce for me, she wound up dead for no explainable reason. That project was definitely shot all to hell. Come to find out, that the male had absolutely NO interest in any of my other females either, so that was a lot of money spent on two animals that wound up being worthless. If I had had two pair of them, surely I could have at least produced something to make that project worth while doing.

So think about what you are doing and remember Murphy's Law. Find the weakest link in your chain of breeding expectations and try to strengthen it. In most cases, this weak link is because all of your hopes will be hinging on the males doing their job.

You have NO idea how many times I get phone calls in the Spring months from someone panicky because they lost the male and now don't have one to mate to their primed and ready females. I remember one year I had a guy call me all worked up because he lost his male Lavender corn and was desperately looking for one to breed to his females. I always have a bunch of them and could possibly have found one for him, so I asked him how much he would spend for something like that. (yeah sounds mercenary, but I LIKE to have lots of males during breeding season). So he hemmed and hawed a bit and then said he figured maybe $200, maybe a little bit more. Let's see, he only wants to spend $200 on a male that would make or break the chances of him producing Lavenders from a couple of females. Figure on 10 each, thinking conservatively, from two females and we're talking about an easy $2,000 that male could earn him. Actually more, but I like round numbers. If he had said he would pay $500 for that male, I might have been able to find one for him. But either he didn't understand tha value of that male, or he didn't understand what he would lose by not having that male available. Sorry, I don't have one to spare.

Don't put yourself into this same position some breeding season. Most of the bigger breeders do have a good supply of breedable males at all times, but they are not going to give them up easily or cheaply just to help you out from your lack of foresight.

pewter
07-02-2002, 04:39 PM
Good piont Rich,

I thought about writing this here the last days but I was to busy - just wrote today a very important test!
I had this year the problem that a lot of my males got ill from the breeding stress (they are ok now). Would you breed an ill male to a pregnant female??? I didnīt tried it...I was clever enough to have some extra males. I also found an infertile male this year for the first time...I thought that this problem might have others but not me - how stupid!
All the years I told me...always to buy - if itīs possible - two male of each line and this year I realized how important this is!

Rich Z
07-02-2002, 04:51 PM
Pewter - unless you know for certain that the male does not have anything contagious, I would be very reluctant to expose any other snake to him. Males can survive just about anything during the breeding season. Females, weakened and stressed severely by the rigors of producing and forcing those eggs out, can often rapidly deteriorate from normally minor ailments and will die before you can do anything about it. I have NEVER lost a male during breeding season. However it is not uncommon for me to lose a couple of females from one thing or another.

A lot of people don't realize it, but everytime you breed those females you are running the risk of possibly losing them. That's why when I get a 'one of a kind' animal, I breath a sigh of relief if it's a male.

Tim Madsen
07-02-2002, 05:23 PM
All good points Rich, a commercial breeder would be crazy to have a breeding project hinging on one male if they could help it. I'm not so sure it applies as closely for the hobbiest. If three snakes is all that's in my snake budget I'd get 1.2, if something happens to the male I'm just set back a couple of years, no big deal, my living is not dependent on it. Of coarse if it's within my hobby budget I'm going to get a backup male. And I'm going to hold back a male or two out of the first clutch. As for those double and triple het. projects, I'll leave figuring out what all those different hatchlings are, up to you. I don't need that headache. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this extra female problem.

carol
07-02-2002, 05:27 PM
Amen!
I agree 100% with Rich, all you who are female heavy don't know the trouble you could be in. Here is another scenerio:
I Love the miami morphs, and I have quite a few Crimsons/ Hypo Miamis. It has been my goal for a while to breed Miami Motleys. I found a guy that had an adult female motley that had Miami coloration, but he would not sell her to me for anything. So I went about my business and bred my best Hypo Miami to 3 females. Infertile? NO, it was his first year ever and as a 2 year old he produced 44 good eggs out of 48 possible, the first time around, another female just layed a second clutch with 14 good eggs and the other two are double clutching as well (Without a second breeding) He was a very aggressive breeder. So what's the point you say?
A couple of months ago, the owner of the Miami Motley female contacted me and basically said, "She is in shed, ready to bred and my family just had and unexpected illness" SOLD! :)
So she got here and shed, I was sooo excited. I put her in with my Super Breeder Male
.................nothing........nothing..........n othing
Several tries and he had absoulty 0 intrest in her, and she was ready to go.
Thank Goodness I had a male Milksnake Phase to breed to her since I really wanted to breed her with only Miami colored males.
She just layed the eggs this week and I expect to have Miamis het Motley, imagine how frustrating it would have been if I didn't have the extra male around.

So beware those of you who say "But my male is fertile and breeds great" because you never know when they'll poop on ya.

Rich Z
07-02-2002, 06:27 PM
Carol brings up an interesting point. There certainly is mate preference among corn snakes. Some males will not want to mate with particular females, and some females will have nothing to do with certain males. Happens all of the time, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

Although a hobbiest livelihood is not hinging upon the production of eggs from their animals, I will tell you for sure that NOTHING is going to disappoint you more than taking the time to grow your animals up, watch them breed and see the female get swollen with apparent eggs. And then one morning you check the egg laying box to find 28 infertile eggs in there.

I get my share of infertiles as much as anyone else, and it is rarely a welcome sight. Well, maybe after the 4,000th or so egg has already been dropped for the season, I'm not quite so disappointed as I would be otherwise, but it makes you feel like so much time and effort has been wasted when that happens. When you get three of four of them in a row, which can happen sometimes, you will often feel like just throwing in the towel.

And whatever you do, DO NOT calculate the money you are going to make off of those babies when the female is still carrying the eggs, and make plans on what you are going to do with that extra money. Lord knows how many orders I've had cancelled from people whom had done just that and then discovered that things didn't go as they had planned.

Colleen
07-02-2002, 07:18 PM
Ok I'm getting all pairs to breed first for a really cool homeschool project, and second to sell some to help cover the costs. Now that I'm reading this I'm beginning to wonder if I should be getting 2 pairs of each!!?!? But that wouldn't allow me to get as many of the morphs! Uggg! And here I thought I was being smart to get pairs!!:rolleyes: My head hurts!

Colleen

kenalotia
07-02-2002, 07:37 PM
I think enough of your pairs would be compatible and fertile that you don't need to buy two pairs of everything. If a pair doesn't take, you can try breeding the female with a different male. You won't get what you originally had in mind, but you can probably adapt your herp genetics lesson to what you get. And, hey, if necessary, your can include a lesson on the issues of infertility! ;)

pdrau
07-02-2002, 07:44 PM
Thanks for the good whap on the head Rich. Your points are well taken. My ratio of males to females is definitely changing.

Peter

LindsayMarie
07-02-2002, 09:18 PM
Hi everyone. I have been reading the posts from the beginning and was unable to post my own thoughts ont he subject as I was waiting for registration to be ok'ed! So this is my first time posting.

Anyways, I think charging extra for females wouldnt be a bad idea at all. After all its not like it is unheard of! Most breeders of just about anything have thought of the idea or done so already. To be honest I can understand why. The want and need for them is higher and prices are based upon supply and demand and quality, right?

I know I recently contacted Rich about buying a female for a male I was hoping to buy through Kathy. This had nothing to do with her extra charge on lone females as I was already buying a male from her :) My biggest concern is I would like the corns I buy to be as unrelated as possible. Buying them from different breeders is probably the best way to get that. Not to mention sometimes a different breeder has exactly what your looking for in a mate for the corn you bought from the first breeder and the first breeder you bought from didnt?! (hope that made sense)

I have to be honest I was thinking of only getting one male and 2 females for each morph project. Boy now that I read everything, I know I was wrong! I wasnt thinking what if the male died, what if he wont breed, what if he is infertile! I will have to re-think my ideas and as much as I would hate to, stick with one color morph project for this year and buy a even ration of 2.2. I dont know yet. Maybe only being a hobbiest I will take my chances?

Back to my original point. Charging extra isnt necessarily a bad thing! You have to do what is best for you keeping customer satisfaction in mind still though :) I am sure most who want extra females understand the spot it puts breeders in and wouldnt think twice about paying a little extra! I know I wouldnt. If I want the snakes I will pay it! Just my thoughts. Take care everyone, Goodluck with the decision. Lindsay Bryant

Bippy
07-03-2002, 01:15 AM
Ya know, Rich... you might want to make up one of your little article/rants like the other two you have up there and post it to your SerpenCo website, on the subject of sex ratios for breeding pairs.

I bet part of the reason newbie breeders buy 1.6 of everything is because they don't know any better. No one told them that the male might be a dud, or just might not be interested. It'd likely be helpful for those who actually choose to look through things before they place orders. Just a thought, (after all, the people buying 1.3 or higher female ratios can obviously afford the more stable 2.2 instead).

There will still probably be people that won't read it, and there will still probably be people who do read it and choose not to follow. It's the latter that probably buy lottery tickets too.

And for the people that spend the money they expect to get from their hatchlings before they hatch... well... that's like spending expected lottery winnings before the numbers have been drawn. Not very bright, IMHO.


I had an experience with the mate preference thing already. I attempted to breed a rather nicely patterned Anery with a snow female, and the male wanted absolutely nothing to do with her. Fortunately I had a few other males that were ready to choose from (and two got the chance), but if I'd only had the one male, I'd be outta luck. :)


I do have a question, though. In your experience, Rich, of the 'fertile' eggs laid each year, approximately what ratio actually hatches, and approximately what ratio of the hatchers actually survive to be sold?

-Bippy (who is just a tad male-heavy ATM)

Rich Z
07-03-2002, 01:34 AM
I do have a question, though. In your experience, Rich, of the 'fertile' eggs laid each year, approximately what ratio actually hatches, and approximately what ratio of the hatchers actually survive to be sold?

Well, I don't think I can answer that accurately. For the last few years, although I keep all of the figures on a spreadsheet, when things get hot and heavy with animals hatching out, I really can't keep up with the data entry stuff. Some clutches will hatch out, have nothing inspiring in them, and I'll dump the entire clutch into a bag to go out to a wholesaler I'm packing a shipment for. And invariably I don't mark down the card as to how many hatched and that skews the numbers on the spreadsheet.

A seat of the pants estimate is that about 80 percent will hatch from the apparently good eggs that were laid.

Now keeping track of the hatchlings themselves is a lost cause. I used to do that and keep every ID number in a database so I could track back its lineage as well have a record of what happened to each and every animal. But that database hasn't been updated since 1995 when I started producing so many animals that I had to choose between doing the data entry or taking care of the animals. I probably still have every card for every animal I have made up cards on since then (which have been limited to only the animals I kept as breeding stock), but they are scattered in every nook and cranny you can think of. It would be a monumental task to find all those cards, key in the data, and bring my inventory up to date with all of the ancestry data. I keep fooling myself thinking that someday I will get around to doing that, but the numbers of animals around here are constantly increasing, which means less time and even more data that should be processed.

Colleen
07-03-2002, 01:46 AM
As I was pondering this new info. I realized that too! After all that is the way nature works, it's never predictable.

Rich, I also agree with Bippy. I have been reading and researching almost continuosly and all I ever heard was that you don't need more than 1 male to 2-3 females. I for one am very thankful for the information in this thread, and you would be opening a lot of eyes if it was on your site.


Thanks for sharing!!

Colleen :)

pipatic
07-03-2002, 03:14 AM
here's another one but with royals.bought 1.2 cb, grew on breeding time came around,nothing no sign of mating,nothing,cut along story short, brought in second male,who started mating straight away, sudenly woke up the first male,you then mated with the females on and of all winter.

SilverTongue
07-03-2002, 03:17 AM
*************SilverTongue will become famous and quite rich creating Viagra for cornsnakes!!!!***************

:)

MateoSnake
07-03-2002, 10:03 AM
I have the very same problem with my bearded dragons... EVERYBODY wants the females and the males don't sell nearly as well as females. So... the price of female bearded dragons are MUCH higher than the males. And as mentioned earlier by someone: SUPPLY & DEMAND. If they want those females, as most of them do... They will pay a higher price for them. I would also buy in pairs if that was all that was available to me. But, like someone else said... they would also go somewhere else in a heartbeat, like to a reptile show or a smaller breeder! We all know the truth here... everyone is trying to make a buck and everyone wants some kind of deal. Not a bad thing, just human nature I guess. I say, raise the prices of those females! If you sell them seperate at one price, give a price break if they buy the pair. Many of them will buy the pair if they "think" they are getting a deal that way. It's not being sneaky, it just makes common sense. In the area of popular lizards, that is the norm. Higher priced females and, a cut in price on the pair. :) That was my $.02

pdrau
07-03-2002, 10:17 AM
I suppose doing something like 2.3 or 2.4 wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if you have multi-het males and females that have various het traits. The possibilities are endless, but I'm sure we've all gotten the point that 1.x isn't a good idea at all. So many choices, so little money!


Peter

HomeBreeder
07-03-2002, 10:32 AM
Rich,

As others have stated, the info you are providing is quite valuable to us neophytes. Obviously breeding is not unlike gambling, because no matter how safely you place your bets, there is always a random element. This randomness provides a large aspect of the enjoyment for breeders, commerical or hobbyist alike, I'd think. Then of course, as you point out it can also result in a folded hand and forfeit of your bet. The need to hedge one's bets will be more urgent for the businessperson than the hobbyist.

My vision for my corn breeding projects is manyfold: perform selective breeding to obtain "custom" background coloration and saddle design for one, also to produce a few "high demand" designer morphs, and of course - support myself. When all is said and done, I'll have spent close to $5000.00 on corn snakes but I should have in excess of 20 males and 20 females. Even with a near 1:1 ratio however, some of my projects ARE going to be major gambles... for example my lavender blood so far consists of only:

2001 male hypo lav
2002 female hypo lav

So, by 2004 I might know if these two will breed with each other; if my bet pays off, their first clutch could pay for theit investment. On the other hand, if I can only get the male to breed I'd be looking at somewhere around 2008 or later before I can be breeding hypo lavs and I think it'd take even longer if the female was the only breeder in the pair (unless I coulf get her to double clutch from two mates, right?) One fortunate thing in my specific circumstance, is that if neither of them breed I'll still be very happy with a beautiful pair of Sepenco HypLavs as my plan only accounts for income when a happy customer gets their order and not a moment sooner. So yes, it's definately a gamble, but I haven't rules out finding a hyplav stud or acquiring more lav or hyplav blood over the next couple years....

You want to talk risky, so far I have only one 2002 female pewter, and one 2002 male bloodred lined up. I don't see myself selling these lines this decade :) Especially considering I'm wanting to play with the bloodred genes in my selective breeding projects, so when I finally get offspring most or all of it will be held back.

About the only thing that's a fairly safe bet for me so far is a reasonable number of hatchlings ranging from normal through okeetee and miami next summer. Honestly though, that's for the best - being a neophyte I'd be kicking myself if my novice husbandry caused me to lose eggs or hatchlings frrom my more expensive bloodlines.

Anyway, I'm probably rambling here, and the kids are asking for their second serving today...

^Curtis

Rich Z
07-03-2002, 12:57 PM
One of these days I need to put up an 'about SerpenCo' page on my site. There are so many flashe sites out there that can make anyone look like they have been doing this forever. This can be misleading to people thinking that becoming a commercial herp breeder is a walk in the park and a sure thing.

I have people contact me every year looking to buy groups of animals with the goal of breeding them several years later, and relying on that income so they can quit their day job and do this full time.

I started out breeding corns around 1978. The reason I did that was different from most people. Somewhere I read that one sure way to determine if animals in captivity are well acclimated was if they will successfully breed in the unnatural surroundings they are being kept in. So heck, I was curious to know if my corn snakes were happy with the way I've been treating them. Oh yeah! They were apparently VERY happy!

Around that time, I didn't have a clue that there was anyone else in the world really much interesting in snakes. The thought of people actually buying them from me was foreign. Repugnant, actually, as I felt it would be 'dirty' to sell them. But there was a local pet shop owner that upon hearing my attitude said something that changed my point of view. He said "Rich, there is nothing wrong about people wanting to pay you money for something you are good at." So with that in mind, I put a couple ads in the local paper, sold to a couple of pet shops, and eventually discovered there were quite a few people out there with the same interest I had. Next thing I knew, I had people calling me up, and upon hearing that I didn't have anything for sale, to please put them on a list so they could buy from me next year. Now there was a novel idea! People actually lining up to BUY snakes from me.

One thing led to another, and next thing I knew I was sending out lists to people of expected hatchlings. Things got out of hand when I started getting price list requests from all over the WORLD. You mean people actually had an interest in snakes in other countries? Most of the snakes I was selling were winding up going to a semi-local guy by the name of Larry Rouch who would buy up most of my stock. This was fine with me, but of course, the numbers I was producing continued to increase until I passed the point where he could absorb most of them.

Anyway, by 1985 I was thinking that Rich Zuchowski, Private Breeder, just didn't cut it anymore, so that is when the name 'SerpenCo' was born. I wanted a name that would be instantly recognizable by people interested in serpents, but yet I could order supplies from some hardware or tool company and not have to explain why I have this crazy notion about breeding *snakes* to everyone I talk to.

It wasn't until this past year, October as a matter of fact, that I finally quit my day job to do this full time. Even then, if it hadn't been for a change in upper management at my job doing programming for the State of Florida and the new boss telling my direct boss that my telecommuting had to end, I would probably still be working there today. Killing myself trying to hold down two full time jobs.

So the point of this long dissertation is to point out that I had no intention of becoming a professional corn snake breeder. To the contrary. This became a business in spite of me, not because of me. Customers have always come to me to buy my animals. I am NOT a salesman and would flop badly if I had to chase down prospective customers and try to SELL them my snakes. At shows, I put the snakes out on the tables in their deli cups and people pick up what they want and pay for them. People BUY lots of snakes from me, but I can't recall ever really SELLING anything.

Oh yeah, back to the point: I have been doing this for about 24 years now (1978 - 2002). It is ONLY now, after all this time that I felt that there is an outside chance that I can make a fair living at doing this full time. And I'm still scared to death thinking that my entire source of income relies on the romantic interludes of a bunch of corn snakes. So much could go wrong, and so many things could sink me almost over night. But I'm 52 years old, and I was put in the position of having to choose between my safe and secure state job, of giving up something I have done for far too long to even think of giving up. No, my choice was a no-brainer to me, but some people would think I actually have no brain and chose the wrong one. Ask me 10 years from now and I'll let you know if I did or not.

DO NOT plan on starting out with this, making a name for yourself that will be a household name in a couple of years, and you will be able to quit your day job and do this full time. At least not if you like to have money available to buy things other than necessities to keep your business afloat. Also, get all of the vacations you can RIGHT NOW, because once you reach the point to where you have enough animals to actually make a business of it, vacations will be history. Connie and I used to take vacations at three weeks at a time, twice a year. Hah! Now, our idea of a vacation is that pleasant Saturday night between two day shows when all of the animals we brought with us are locked up in a room somewhere and we CAN'T get in there to clean and feed them.

Heck, guess I really rambled on here, huh? Got to close this down and get some work done before the day drags on too much longer............

Pardon any errors, but I'm not going to proofread this one.....

kathylove
07-03-2002, 03:01 PM
For many years, I struggled to convince people to buy in pairs. I just ended up with either unhappy customers or a bunch of males at the end of the year, some of which had to be sold a sale prices or held for WAY too long. But why shouldn't the customer get EXACTLY what they want, as long as they are willing to pay for it? Supply and demand suggests that if males are less in demand and females more so, then they should be priced accordingly. Since they hatch roughly 50/50 and most people want 1.2 or 1.3 - 2.4 or 2.6 groups, it's obvious what will be in short supply.

Somebody asked about missed single female sales. What about the missed pair sales at the end of the year when I have only males left? People are beginning to realize that it will be harder to pair up the single male later, so sometimes they pass on the single males unless they just want a pet.

I think it would be a logical policy to give people what they want and also be fair to the breeder, who wants to avoid being stuck with extra males.

About the sticky problems: I usually will allow "pairs" of 2 different types (say okeetees and sunglows, etc) at the pair price IF the customer allows me to choose which one will be the female. Then I can "even out" whichever type is running more ahead on males or females. Abd if somebody buys a male at the normal pair price and wants a female later the same year, I usually give it to them at the pair price. But sometimes I gave them the male at a discount - then I can't do it. Each is a case by case basis. I feel I try to be as fair as possible.

If somebody has a better, more fair suggestion, I would love to hear it and will certainly consider it.

Thanks, Rich, for bringing this problem to public attention.

Colleen
07-03-2002, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure if this would help your situation but I thought that by buying from both you and Kathy( or Don S.) that I would then have completely unrelated snakes. After talking with Kathy I realized that you guys swap alot so the male I get from Kathy and the female I get from you may be more closely related than if I had asked either of you for a pair from different clutches! I'm pretty new to all this so maybe it's one of those "common knowledge" things that I just hadn't heard yet, but there are several posts in this thread refering to unrelated pairs. (I have also heard this numerous times on the different forums.)

If I'm way off base then just ignore me and tell me to keep my newbe ideas to myself!LOL:D Just a thought anyway!

Colleen

Darin Chappell
07-03-2002, 04:50 PM
A friend of mine had a bloodred male that had been a proven producer for him. I wanted some bloodreds, so I went about to find bloodred females last year (good luck!)). I was only able to find two girls, one het for bloodred and the other a possible het for bloodred, from Kathy Love. Now, this was before she raised her price on lone females, but I CERTAINLY would have understood her reasoning and paid the price anyway because i needed those females for this spring. Now, that male has since died in my buddy's care and I am left with no male to breed to these females. So, I bought a bloodred male from Don Sodorberg, and I picked up the steal of a lifetime on an amel bloodred male. I also have a 1.1 pair of hypo bloodreds from Rich coming in August. I'll be switched (time tested hillbilly saying there) if I have a spring where I have NOTHING to breed to waiting females!

Go ahead and raise your prices if you need to, Rich. Just remember to give those of us who have supported you in this that *special* discount on our multi-pair purchases in the future:D


Darin

P.S. For those who might not know this little trick, if you take some shavings from the tank of one male and put them in with a reluctant 1.1 pair, the hesitant male will often be spurred on to performance by the "competitor" smell lurking about. Just a thought!

SilverTongue
07-03-2002, 04:53 PM
I just have to ask a question. What do yall base the cost of your snakes on. Granted i know some breeds are tougher to come by because you have to get the right pair together at the right time, but what do yall base the price on? Example.... I have seen '02 blizzards range from $40-$85. Sure you can say well they dont have the cool breeding my snakes do and the nice bloodline... But think about it really....They most likely got their blizzards from one of you big breeders in the first place. So it wuopuld be basically the same. I just wanted to know it there was a better reason other then bloodlines to explain the cost hike with some of the bigger breeders.

Colleen
07-03-2002, 05:13 PM
What your saying is true but I have seen Candy Canes here that were from SMR parents(she says anyway) that are a far cry from the ones that you would get from one of the bigger breeds like Rich. You may luck out and get a stunning animal for the bargain price but in my experience you'd better see at least a photo first! Also the little breeder will be hard pressed to replace your animal if there happens to be something wrong thing it. I like the comfort of the big breeders guarentees. Also their name does carry their reputations for quality stock. If you are looking to breed and hopefully sell your babies for alittle profit that means alot.( don't worry Rich I have no plans to quit my day job! I would like to at least make enough to support my hobby. BTW if you can tell me how to get out of being a Mom/ Teacher/ Home Manager I'd love to know how, at least long enough for a bubble bath!):D

I for one am more than willing to pay the extra dime to ensure I get healthy, quality animals! And don't forget, if you have a problem like your baby won't eat, who would you rather call on for advice?

JMHO!


Colleen

Ps Can't believe I forgot this part... The big breeders have also put countless hours/years into making their Corns up to the high quality they are and should be paid for their efforts. If they didn't produce the numbers they do and all that involves, then there wouldn't be people with a pair of there animals to breed and then sell at cut rate prices! Thats why they can do that THIER time wasn't put into making that cultivar and refining it!

:D Silver Tongue..sounds harsh not meant too!:D

Rich Z
07-03-2002, 05:52 PM
One thing that probably not many new people in this realize, is that there is not, in most cases, any such thing as 'unrelated' pairs when you are talking about genetic cultivars. Unless someone else spontaneously produced another line of Lavenders, or Caramels, or Blood Reds, or Stripes, etc, they are ALL related in some fashion. It can be no other way. The thing you have to consider is how close are you to the root stock when you want to buy YOUR breeding stock?

This, in a fashion, will answer SilverTonque's question. Let's take for example the Caramel (Butter) corns. I produced the very first ones back in 1991. As far as I know ALL Caramels/Butters that exist on this planet today came from the original animal I got that was a wild caught animal that probably carried this gene. I say 'probably' because a spontaneously produced genetic trait is certainly possible and I can't rule that out. In which case, those original few that hatched out then were the original ancestors of ALL Caramels/Butters today. I have been outcrossing and breeding Caramels/Butters from the beginning, and in the process have developed multiple lines of them to work with. The earlier you start with something new, the more time you have to produce multiple generations of this strain, as well as get lines that are further and further removed from the original root stock.

Ordinarily, when someone buys a pair of offspring from the originator, the new owner will grow up this pair, breed them together and then offer those offspring for sale. They are directly related, no doubt about it. Someone else buys a pair from this person, grows them up, breeds them, then offers yet another generation of offspring for sale. And so on and so on. See what I mean? The most likely source of the most unrelated stock POSSIBLE normally will come from the originator of the genetic stock. Without interrogating everyone else on the upper branches of the tree to find the EXACT path their stock came from, this is the safest way to get stock that is as unrelated as possible.

And yes, the originator is probably going to charge more for his/her animals. Not only for the reason mentioned above, but they will also have a substantial head start on selectively breeding that cultivar to enhance the positive aspects of that strain that perhaps were only hinted at in the original generation. Guess what? They probably kept the best ones for themselves, and used those animals to produce subsequent generations.

So what the decision may often be is buying an animal for $15 from someone whom perhaps bought one of the adults at a local pet shop and isn't too sure if it's an Okeetee, but it sure looks like one, or paying twice or more than that from someone whom has been selectively breeding them for generations and can tell you with reasonable certainty that at least some of the blood running through that animals veins came from an animal that was captured on Okeetee Hunt Club back in the early '80s.

As for Colleen's question, yes you have hit a nail right on the head that many people haven't even known about. Personally, I like doing herp shows that are BIG and well attended with a lot of vendors. Why? Because a LOT of my business is to other vendors. Substantially so. Several years ago, I had an amusing incident take place at a show. I was working with Honduran milk snakes at the time and as always other vendors would stop by our tables during setup. We normally sell animals before the doors ever open up, and I just assumed this person liked the looks of my Hondurans and wanted them for his own stock. Anyway after that show was over and we were back home, I got a call from someone whom sounded kind of baffled. At that time, I used to put a sticker on the bottom of the deli cups identifying SerpenCo as the source of the animal purchased. Well this person had bought a single Honduran Milk Snake from me and then went off to check the other tables to try to find an unrelated mate. He said that when he got home, he was trying to remember which he got from which vendor and noticed that the deli cup he was looking at had my sticker on the bottom of it. But then he checked the other one, and my sticker was on that cup as well. So apparently all that other vendor did was to put my snakes on his table and resell them.

Also, when many breeders run short of some animals to sell, a lot of them will buy from other breeders and resell that stock to fill their own orders. This will certainly be an eye opener for a lot of people. And before you ask, NO, I personally do not buy animals for resale nor broker other people's animals.

Let's face it people. There is a core group of corn snake breeders in this country that have been working and breeding corn snakes for longer than some of you have even been alive. What are the chances that you can even FIND a non-normal colored or patterned corn snake that DOESN'T have an ancestor somewhere that came from one of us?

Bippy
07-03-2002, 09:11 PM
I've actually seen lavenders at a show last year for $75. I guess that's probably all the local market will bear, but still... pretty cheap for one of the more recent morphs out there. If I'dve been able to get one of them at the time, I probably would have.

I think my biggest problem is I have a greater interest in some of the higher-end morphs, and can't afford to get 2.2 of everything. Most of what I have is either 0.1 or 1.0, with a few 2.0/0.2's. Oh well. Someday. :)

drwatts
07-04-2002, 12:52 AM
Very interesting discussion here. I especially enjoyed the historical post by Rich. Surprised to hear that you only recently have quite your other job; must be a type- A personality; sound too much like work to me.

As many have stated ,and I comply, You (Rich) should not feel guilty about allowing the market forces of supply and demand (that this great capalist country has been built upon) dictate your pricing structure. Price as high as the market will bear, all these years of work should provide a monatary benefit. You agruably have the most reconizable name in the business (you and Cathy anyway), and deserve the higher profit margin which corresponds with notability.

One thing you may want to consider when someone request a lone female or females is that this is a sale you may not have made if they were not offered as such. So you may be benefiting and making more sales based on your policies; maybe going with the trend may be unwise. If you are selling all your females quickly and turning customers away as the year progresses you are probably selling them too inexpensively.

Take care.

kathylove
07-04-2002, 09:20 AM
Somebody wanted to know how a breeder decides a price. In my case, it is mostly my customers who decide, via the old supply and demand rule. Although I generally try to stay "in the ballpark" with most of the other breeders, some of my morphs will be higher or lower than others for a simple reason. I am either selling out too quickly, or have way too many leftover at the end of the season, probably because I produce too few of some and too many of others. Of course, the demand changes from year to year, but usually trends can be predicted. So I have to adjust prices up or down according to the previous year's sales. Unlike most products and services, you will see reptile breeder's prices going down sometimes, not just always up, up, up! (Unlike the electricity, mouse food, or other expenses incurred!)

Each breeder has a particular market and quantity mix of morphs, and a breeding and marketing strategy that(hopefully) works for him or her. That's why prices will always vary from one source to another. Sometimes it may have to do with quality or color, etc. Other times it is just a response to the market.

SilverTongue
07-04-2002, 10:27 AM
Do any of you all breeders attend any Texas shows?

Alicia
07-04-2002, 10:43 AM
Usually if you check out their websites they have posted the shows that they attend each year. You can also check the website of the show and see if they have a list of vendors posted.

:) Alicia

Clint Boyer
07-05-2002, 10:10 PM
It's a good way to get a different perspective on the industry. It's really hard to imagine what goes on behind the scenes at a large scale breeders facility (until you've walked a few miles in thier shoes!).

There is a wealth of info here for everyone whether you're projects are intended to produce income or just for fun. I've made my share of mistakes but also had more help then I probably deserved.

I sure hope some of the other large scale breeders decide to participate!

Hurley
07-05-2002, 10:53 PM
It's a good way to get a different perspective on the industry. It's really hard to imagine what goes on behind the scenes at a large scale breeders facility (until you've walked a few miles in thier shoes!).

There is a wealth of info here for everyone whether you're projects are intended to produce income or just for fun. I've made my share of mistakes but also had more help then I probably deserved.

I sure hope some of the other large scale breeders decide to participate!

I agree. I hope the Rogue's Gallery Grows. I have learned a tremendous amount of information form the corn forums, and continue to learn more every day. It never ceases to amaze me how the "big guns" will go out of their way to help out us 'little people'. :D :p :D I'd like to send out a big thank you to everyone for making this a great forum.

Gregg
07-06-2002, 12:56 AM
This thread is beginning to sound like a group confessional.

Well, I guess I'd better jump in and say a "Hell, Mary!" Or two myself.

I usually buy corns in pairs. And not because two ears are better than one; although that probably is true. And not because I want to be a millionaire. Well, actually, I do want to be a millionaire, but I'd have a better chance of being a snowball in Hell, than getting that much money selling snakes.

____________________I'm a hobbyist.

My son wanted a snake. Since he was five, when I bought him his first corn snake, I had to be the one to care for the new family addition. Soon, it became another hobby for me. I don't mind. It gives me a very relaxing break from my other hobbies-turned-occupations (bonsai, playing the drum set in three bands, and trimming Japanese gardens). Whenever I buy corns, I buy pairs, because I have a habit of buying things in pairs. It's a Libra thing. It started with my wanting to buy only a mate for the "Old Man," but then I discovered all those beautiful corn snakes that Kathy Love and Rich Zuchowski sell. Now, whenever I buy a new snake, I buy a pair--Yen/Yang, Male/Female, Duality In Nature.


Anyway, whenever I have bought a single snake it has been either because: 1) that was all there was available, 2) the morph was too expensive for me to buy two, Or 3), because I had one, for which I was buying a mate, and the one I had died and now another has to be bought. >>By the way, Rich, if I had known before-hand that the two snakes I bought for $110.00 each were going to be each $35.00 dollars cheaper if I waited for the 2002 babies, I would have waited and bought a pair each!<< Oh well, I guess buying a Lone Female is out of the question now!

Another reason I buy pairs is because my son has been after me for Game-Boys, Nintendos, X-Boxes, Game Cubes, and all their games for the past two years. Anyone with children knows what I mean. As a father--and as both a lazy and stingy bastard--it is my job to NOT just give my son a blackened catfish to eat for dinner, but to teach him to fish for his own damn food and cook it. Raising corn snakes is far more enjoyable [to me] than mixing limonade and sitting out in the hot sun. Selling plants is out too. I have been unsuccessful in getting him interested in growing plants of any kind. So, If I buy corn snakes in pairs, I might be able to kill two birds at once. One, I could teach him how to raise his own money and operate his own business if we are successful in producing any babies at all. And two, whether we are successful or not, I can teach him all about the Birds and the Bees and Life and Death. That lesson has begun with the death of two of our females--which died, by the way, for no apparent reason.

Would I pay more for a lone female? Yes, if I wanted that female and did have to pay more to get her, but naturally, I would prefer to pay less for a pair. Am I out to make a big name for myself in the breeding business? No, so I would prefer to buy a replacement female for the price I paid when I bought the pair.

Wonder what would happen if you asked for double the price on
Males? :rolleyes:

Rich Z
07-06-2002, 02:39 AM
Wonder what would happen if you asked for double the price on males?

In such a case, I guess it would be better to sell the females at double the price of males and give away a free male with every female purchased.

Or another way to look at it would be to go ahead and buy a pair, even if you only need a female and sell off the male yourself. In many cases, you might wind up much better off than paying a surcharge for that lone female.

Or another strategy may be to require the purchaser to buy one of my wife's leopard geckos with each lone or extra female corn snake they buy. That would certainly make my wife happy! I've taken up most of her space with the corn snake eggs this year and she's just about out of room anyway.

Sigh...... I sure do wish we could control the sexes of the offspring like we do with leopard geckos. Would make things a whole lot easier.

SilverTongue
07-06-2002, 03:52 AM
I know you have been doing this for a while so i am sure you have tried this but i have to ask....

Have you tried ajusting the tempatures of the eggs? I heard from some animal show that alligators can decide the sex of their offspring by ajusting the tempature. I think the hotter they are they become female. But I am not sure.. You would have to reasearch it and then give it a try. It couldnt hurt (as long as the temps dont get too high or too low for the eggs survival)

Matt L
07-06-2002, 06:09 AM
originally posted by Rich Z.
Or another strategy may be to require the purchaser to buy one of my wife's leopard geckos with each lone or extra female corn snake they buy. That would certainly make my wife happy!

Rich,
Well that sounded like a good plan!-So I thought I would give it a little test--you know--run it by my wife. Now I'm all for keeping our better halves happy, but it looks like I'll stick with pairs or pay the extra for a lone female. Mine mumbled something about "any more hobbies--edit,edit,edit"--Maybe my timing was off--5:30am sat morn.

Seriously, I would gladly pay extra for a lone female if that is what I needed.

Matt L.

Susan
07-07-2002, 03:24 PM
As a "newbie" hobbiest breeder, having been breeding corns for only 6 years, I've learned the lessons the hard way. Having only a limited budget to buy new morphs, I usually only get 1.1, and often, at least one of the pair is "just" a het. My attempt to bring Lavenders into my collection ended with 2 dead hatchlings. My Butter male, having excaped just before brumation, sent me into a panic. Luckily, I found him just after Rich told me that he could sell me another one, but before I could close the sale. I now wish I had taken Rich up on his offer since my female Caramel het butter produced 0/zilch/nada eggs, not even slugs, after I witnessed 2 matings. (I know the male is fertile since he fathered 3 clutches last year). And my Caramel het amber refused to accept him. My amber male died last year and the replacement male isn't old enough yet. And the female amber I purchased with the new male also died this spring.
And keeping an entire clutch isn't even a guarantee. I kept the entire 5.7 hatchlings from my amel zigzag X butter pairing last year. I am down to 0.5 since the clutch had alot of problem feeders.
After reading this thread in it's entirety, I'm going to make a few changes in what I plan on keeping from this years hatchlings, as well as what I hope to buy this year in Daytona, finances permitting. Now if I can just find a buyer for my neonate boas...$$$...more corns !!!

Bippy
07-07-2002, 06:55 PM
I wish I could afford to buy 2.2 of everything, but I've been somewhat pressed for both money and space (moreso the latter).

My strategy has been to mostly buy morphs that can pair up with several other morphs and get interesting results. For example, I have a female snow, a male ghost, and a male anery, so if one of the males died or was infertile, I could still get some interesting hatchlings. It may mean I won't be able to get the fancier morphs if one of my more expensive snakes dies, but if I'm really desparate for something, then I guess I'll bite the bullet and pay the cost to buy an adult from a breeder.

I guess the biggest necessity if you're short on money/space is patience. If you absolutely HAVE to have butters hatch out THIS YEAR, or whatever, then if you lose your breeder, you're stuck paying high $$ for adults. If you're willing to be patient and raise up another hatchling, and breed the surviving snake(s) to some other morph in the meantime, then there's far less stress involved. And who knows... that amel you breed the caramel het butter to could just have some hidden genetics. ;)

LindsayMarie
07-08-2002, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Bippy
I wish I could afford to buy 2.2 of everything, but I've been somewhat pressed for both money and space (moreso the latter).

My strategy has been to mostly buy morphs that can pair up with several other morphs and get interesting results.

I too would LOVE to buy 2.2 of everything but the needed space alone to do this would probably be a little too much. Not to mention most of my interests are on the higher demand morphs that cost quite a bit! I too have spent many many hours trying to find morphs that can be mixed and matched. Its not always easy to do that though! That usually means trying to find morphs that are triple and quad het!! I guess it probably wouldnt be as hard to find a normal triple or quad het but trying to find a butter or lavender triple or quad het is pretty difficult if not impossible! My dilema is trying to breed the lavender lines AND butter lines. They just dont seem to entertwine (so to speak). Finding two males that can be bred with any one of the 4 females (2fem butter line and 2fem lavender line) and get butters, ambers, caramels, lavenders, amels, anerys, hypos, etc! Instead of just normals (het) hasnt been easy for me. Plus I am picky and want all 6 corns to be a different morph themselves so that my collection is colorful too. I hope I have made sense and didnt sound like I was just rambling! If anyone has any ideas for me that would be great too. Take care, Lindsay

HomeBreeder
07-08-2002, 12:33 PM
doesn't sound crazy to me, Lindsay....

As some of you know, I've been setting the foundation to start a "home business" breeding a few herps (leo's, goldens, & "skunks" for geckos, corns for snakes, no amphibians yet.) I'd love to be able to breed each and every morph but not only is that daunting as a neophyte, but the common problem of space is obviously at issue as well - I'm doing this project out of a spare bedroom and my living room, lol (thank god for my wonderful wife for going along with this cockeyed plan.) but to get back to the point, I'm trying to keep a limited scope on my range of projects not only for my sanity, but also so my wife and I still have a place to sleep. As with you, I am trying to collect snakes that "mix and match" nicely with each other, and not exclusively 1.1 or 2.2 sets. That said, I'm STILL going to have at least 50 snakes by the end of summer once you add the unhatched snakes from Rich, Kathy, John, and Don that I'm anticipating into my collection.

50 snakes! But being realistic, I also must admit that this is but the tip of the icecberg, because next summer that number will probably double as I holdback snakes for my "advanced" breeding projects (i.e. trying to out-cross some of my lines, or combine traits from different lines.) That reminds me, I need to start budgeting for an insulated/heated out-building where I can house the holdbacks as well as the hatchlings next year....

I don't know what the lesson is, but maybe you'll find this info handy...

Serpwidgets
07-12-2002, 02:09 AM
The down side is that I can't go with 2.2 of everything I want, or 3.3 for double hets. But it makes me think a lot harder about what I need to get, what pairs to breed, etc. I think that the planning is most of the fun, and keeps me into the breeding aspect of the hobby year-round.

The other thing is that I can go with 1.1, or even work from oddball het pairings. I don't breed to make money, I breed so that I can produce stuff I really like, and hopefully push that particular look in the direction that suits my tastes. Whatever hatches hatches, and if there's something I really love, it's mine. :)

It doesn't pay the bills, so I don't have to get stressed or lose sleep over it. :)

Ok, I don't have to, but I still do. :rolleyes:

pipatic
07-12-2002, 03:47 AM
:D well said and that about sum up it ,for me too.
unless i win the lottto lol:D

Gregg
07-12-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Serpwidgets
.... I think that the planning is most of the fun, and keeps me into the breeding aspect of the hobby year-round.

.... I don't breed to make money, I breed so that I can produce stuff I really like, and hopefully push that particular look in the direction that suits my tastes. Whatever hatches hatches, and if there's something I really love, it's mine. :)

It doesn't pay the bills, so I don't have to get stressed or lose sleep over it. :)


My feelings exactly, Serp, every 1.1 het., or double-het. pair I buy is based on producing a look I like and want in my collection. Usually, it's because I don't have, or want to spend, the money it takes to get the morph I want (Although, I find I'll end up spending more money). Sometimes, it's because the look I want isn't available on anyone's 'For Sale' lists. It's a big gamble, I know, but the fun part is having my snakes to play with and watching them grow up into big babies.

As for making money, that's where my son comes in. If we are successful in producing baby snakes in the coming years, then he can take the ones we don't want and sell them off to his friends, or at wholesale to the local reptile stores.

PSYCOSNAKEMOM
07-29-2002, 10:37 AM
I bought my two females, Beanie and Barbie from Rich, I wanted two ladies because I thought that would increase my being able to keep them together longer with-out conflicts, I was hoping they would get along and be happy. So far so good but they are still babies. Then I couldn't take it any more and ordered a male from Rich, Merlin. He has his own housing. My thought was a "just in case"..... in a couple of years,..... I wanted to breed them. My true feeling is to leave that to the professionals, but you never know, plus I don't think you can get snakes "fixed". What if my ladies really needed a "guy" :eek: I love Merlin, he is a Miami Phase with perfect markings.

Any how to get to the real point. They do the price difference with other pets, dogs, cats, you always pay more for the female. My female cat was twice as much as my male and my male dog was $300 less than the female. So, what are we saying here????:rolleyes: The women are worth more than men????, oh I mean, female pets vs. male pets, here we go again, girls are calmer, less aggessive (not at my house) boys are more protective......... stud fees bring in less money than new babies. :(

ok, I'm done~~~~~~~~~:~ Sam

Tim Madsen
07-29-2002, 11:02 AM
You can get snakes fixed, any good reptile vet. can do it. Spaying or neutering a snake is no more difficult than any other animal. IMHO

tschofie
07-29-2002, 01:05 PM
/Have you tried ajusting the tempatures of the eggs? I
/heard from some animal show that alligators can decide
/the sex of their offspring by ajusting the tempature.

If I'm not mistaken, the reason this happens is that male and
female 'gators are not genetically different - the male doesn't
carry the reptile equivalent of a "y" chromosome, for instance.
But snakes do have genetically different males and females -
actually, it's the female that carries an X and a Y chromosome
(Though they might be called something different... X and Z?)
Anyway, that means that right from conception, the gender
is locked into a hatchling. Temperature shouldn't make a
difference -- I think.

Interestingly enough, because female snakes carry the odd-
chromosome pattern, they are the ones that "determine" the
gender of the offspring. In humans, it's the male's gamete which
determines gender - he either donates an "X", in which case you
get a female baby, or a "Y", in which case you get a male.
Snakes are just the exact opposite.

Err, more on topic, yep -- I would pay 10 to 20% more for a
lone female, and consider the surcharge quite fair. It's
a bigger hassle for the breeder to go back and pick out just
one animal of a sort, for one thing. And demand for females
is higher. Personally, I think I'd prefer two prices -- with just
one price, I'd feel like I was asking a major favor if I wanted or
needed a lone female. I don't think it's much of a contest --
add a surcharge!

Cheers,
TS

HomeBreeder
07-30-2002, 01:46 PM
this is off topic, but TS - how do you know that about corn-snake chromosomes? Is it in a book somewhere? I'm not doubting you, it's just obvious that I need to add that book to my collection :)

^Curtis

Serpwidgets
07-31-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by tschofie
Anyway, that means that right from conception, the gender
is locked into a hatchling. Temperature shouldn't make a
difference -- I think.

It's not a 100% thing. In humans, there are also XY females and XX males. Hormones ultimately determine which genitalia will develop. AFAIK under normal circumstances the production (or non-production) of said hormones is under the control of the sex chromosomes, but obviously that can be overridden by certain circumstances.

I also see it being possible that the mechanisms present in the temp-gender-controlled ancestors have not been entirely eliminated in the evolution of snakes... You see where I'm going with this? :)

IMO the best way to find out (without mapping genomes) is to experiment with incubation temps and see what kind of statistical evidence can be gathered.

tschofie
07-31-2002, 08:36 AM
The reason for mamalian gender weirdness (like XY females) is actually largely genetic. The SRY gene is found only on the Y chromosome, and if for some reason it is not present or not functioning, then a "male" that carries it turns out female. (Not sure if she can still be fertile, though.) You're right, of course, hormones ultimately determine gender -- but with mammals, unless the genes that make those hormones are weird themselves, there's not much that can go wrong, perhaps excepting nasty environmental chemicals which tend to cause terminations anyway. And I still have no idea if an XY male snake (assuming XX is normal) or an XX female would be fertile -- just having the right equipment doesn't always cut it. (Do snakes have secondary sexual characteristics?)

Ah, good site for humans:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/disease/SRY.html

No idea if female snakes carry a female reptile equivcalent of an SRY. Wish there were more snake research being done. Sigh.

Cheers,
TS

kenalotia
07-31-2002, 06:33 PM
While not common, it is not so extremely rare for a person carrying XY chromosomes to appear female. There can be a couple of reasons for this, but the one I know most about is androgen insensitivity. Androgen is the hormone that comes into play to make a chromosomally XY fetus develop male sex organs. It's also the hormone that causes the changes boys experience at puberty. Occasionally, a fetus is insensitive to androgen - the body just doesn't respond to it at all. The baby is born looking female, and generally nothing is suspected until late in puberty, when the girl has never menstruated. These women(?) are not fertile. They do not have the necessary internal organs (ovaries, uterus, etc.) to reproduce as a female. One other thing that sets them apart from "normal" women is that they seem ultra-feminine. Normal women do have a certain level of androgen in their bodies which causes things like unwanted body or facial hair, etc. Androgen-insensitive people do not get any body or facial hair, nothing like that.

Now the really weird thing is what happens when people are partially androgen-insensitive. They are born looking female, but when the huge rush of androgen comes at puberty, their bodies grow the penis and testicles, etc... Usually a terrible, scarring experience for them (except in one society where for some reason, this is a relatively common experience).

In any case, if there is a similar phenomenon in snakes, I would assume that they are infertile like their mammalian counterparts.