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Changing over to the Munson plan... advice??

grandlinegirl
02-09-2015, 10:27 PM
Auggie has been eating every Wednesday night so far, but I've heard good things about the Munson plan and I want to switch over. I weighed her tonight and she's 7g. I weighed the pinkie and it's 2g, so that falls in with the plan...

Normally I feed her in a box and have to wiggle the pinkie in front of her for a few minutes before she'll take it. That's not working anymore because my cats get all excited and I can't lock them out. (I am lucky to live somewhere with no doors! Seriously!). I did try wiggling it for her a bit tonight but she showed no interest...

So I put her in a critter carrier with the mouse and put her up out of the way in a dim place, but so far she hasn't touched the mouse. She might not be hungry since she just ate on the 4th, I don't know...

How long should I leave her (she's been in there about 15 mins with the mouse)? And if she doesn't eat this pinkie, what do I do? Wait until next Monday to feed her? I probably went about this all wrong... :uhoh:

grandlinegirl
02-09-2015, 10:54 PM
I gave up and put her back in her viv. She had no interest in it at all...

Eudiphon
02-09-2015, 10:59 PM
I've had success with my corn by just leaving a thawed (and dried off, to prevent substrate sticking) pinky in the cage overnight. Eventually he comes by and has eaten it.

I normally first put the pinky near the hide he is in so he can smell it, then maybe drag it in a trail a little ways from the hide so he will follow the scent to it.

Just give her a lot of privacy and and darkness, and see if that helps her have interest in eating?

grandlinegirl
02-09-2015, 11:00 PM
I've had success with my corn by just leaving a thawed (and dried off, to prevent substrate sticking) pinky in the cage overnight. Eventually he comes by and has eaten it.

I normally first put the pinky near the hide he is in so he can smell it, then maybe drag it in a trail a little ways from the hide so he will follow the scent to it.

Just give her a lot of privacy and and darkness, and see if that helps her have interest in eating?

I've never fed her in her viv... I'm not really wanting to but I suppose it won't hurt if I leave the pinkie in there overnight?? I don't want her to get nippy with me haha

Eudiphon
02-09-2015, 11:06 PM
Well I've only fed my snake twice, but he's never bit me before. I suppose as long as YOU don't smell like the mouse, she won't have interest in you.

I normally just wash my hands with some unscented or as mildly scented as possible soap to avoid smelling like food. Never had a problem.

Someone also suggested tapping on the glass once leaving the pinky in there, and giving them privacy.

The first time I fed my snake, I taped a garbage bag over the front (not the top where the air vents) of his viv, and tapped on the side a little to send some vibrations into the tank. After a while of tapping, I just left the room dark and went to another room to give him privacy -- eventually he came out and went for it.

Took him several hours before he left his hide though and went for it -- only once things were quiet around his cage for a while.

Eudiphon
02-09-2015, 11:07 PM
Sorry, I meant tapping on the glass in a motion similar to when you run your fingers on a hard surface when you're bored or waiting or something.

smigon
02-10-2015, 07:51 AM
Are you sure she isn't in blue? They usually won't eat if they are in blue, and it isn't good for them to be fed at this time. Wait a week or two and see if she sheds.

grandlinegirl
02-10-2015, 10:35 AM
I checked her over and she looked normal... I left the pinkie on a small plate in her Viv overnight and I woke up to it gone. I'll leave her for 48 hours and then take a look at her.

I've never seen it before... is it very obvious when they're getting ready to shed or will I have to really look for signs?

Chip
02-10-2015, 10:55 AM
Here are some thoughts I agree with 100% on feeding outside the cage: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138567
Here are my thoughts on the Munson plan: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136508

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 07:05 AM
She did a regurgitation :( It must have been sometime yesterday (3 days after feeding) because I didn't see it until I woke up this morning.

What is the next step? How long do I wait before feeding her again? I'm on my way to school for the day or I would look it up.

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 08:21 AM
I'm wondering now if it's a regurgitation or badly digested poop? It has no shape of a mouse, it's just a brown glob... I would take a picture if it wouldn't gross you guys out?? Lol. If it's not a regurge then I don't really want to put her through that regurge plan...

Rigby & Marcy
02-12-2015, 10:23 AM
Post a pic. After 3 days, I bet it's poop.

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 10:45 AM
This is what it looks like. Now that I see it again it looks like poop, especially with the pinched ends >.>

Am I good to keep on her feeding schedule?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/12/277d7eb300f9dda78bbd8ab5463bcfc0.jpg

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 10:46 AM
I will add that the temps where I am in Canada dropped and her temp went from 86 to 83 even with a thermostat. Could that have caused the bad digestion?

Chip
02-12-2015, 03:12 PM
Regurge. Please read the links I posted, the Munson plan is aggressive. The food item was too large, corns won't regurge a small meal at 83. Here's a cut & paste of Kathy Love's regurge protocol:
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:
If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info: http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 03:18 PM
A 2g pinkie was too small? That's all she's ever eaten, even before I got her...

I will follow that, though. I'm a little afraid about cutting them in half. Yuck lol

Chip
02-12-2015, 03:30 PM
What does your snake weigh? Can't answer without knowing that, though a 2g pink is very small, I've hatched corns scarcely bigger than that which needed to start on heads. Oh, and cutting pinks is easiest while still frozen.

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 03:45 PM
I weighed her Monday and she was 7g

Chip
02-12-2015, 04:05 PM
She's still a tiny baby, but one would think a 2 gram prey item would be manageable. Does your scale weigh tenths of grams? Do you know her hatch date?

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 04:09 PM
She's still a tiny baby, but one would think a 2 gram prey item would be manageable. Does your scale weigh tenths of grams? Do you know her hatch date?

I'm not sure. I'll have to look up the scale I guess. And no, I don't. :( All I know is the guy said he hatched and raised her. I didn't think to ask at the time and I no longer have his contact info...

Rigby & Marcy
02-12-2015, 07:51 PM
It would be nice to have a supply of reds. The pinkies that are sold are sometimes really big. And it's still possible based on the earlier posts that she wasn't interested at first because she could be shedding. Sorry for your troubles!

grandlinegirl
02-12-2015, 08:46 PM
Thank you. I just hope she's okay. I went to check on her a few minutes ago and couldn't find her. Her Viv is secure so I'm not worried about her having gotten out. She must have buried under her bedding. Poor thing.

Being a snake Momma is hard lol

Chip
02-13-2015, 02:54 PM
Just leave her be for a week and a half, and feed her a head next. You can still use the body to feed next time if she passes that okay. It would be interesting to go through all the old threads titles "Switching to the Munson Plan" that follow with "My corn has regurged." It really is pushing the limits of what they can handle.

grandlinegirl
02-13-2015, 02:57 PM
I'm going to go back to how I was feeding her before once I get her back on track with the regurge plan. Before I was just feeding her a pinkie every 5 days and she was okay with that. I understand this is my fault for trying to switch her.

grandlinegirl
02-19-2015, 07:48 AM
Well, I tried to feed Auggie last night and it didn't go well :(

It's been 9 days so far. I put her in a small container in her Viv with the head of a pinkie. I covered the tank with a thick sheet doubled up (leaving a bit of room on top for air) and then I turned the lights off and left her overnight.

I just checked and the mouse is still there. Not moved one bit. She didn't even have any interest in it.

I'm so worried and upset with myself for screwing things up. What do I do now? :(

grandlinegirl
02-19-2015, 07:52 AM
I forgot to add there has been no handling or bothering her at all. I'll check when I move her back but I've seen no signs of going into a shed...

Chip
02-21-2015, 02:40 PM
Seeing as she just regurged 6 days ago, be thankful she didn't take. She might well have regurged again, and you'd be in a real mess. Try her in about 3 more days. Perhaps just drop the tiniest pink (or a head) you have on a plate in her cage. That way she doesn't even have to be handled to be put in a deli. Might try it at night. But feeding inside 10 days isn't advised.