Gravid Snake with a RTI!!!

Hi all! How ya been?

Monty from Brooklyn here (aka axis1).

Unfortunately, Lilly, my gravid snow corn, whom I've bred successfully last summer, has developed what appears to be the onset of a respiratory tract infection (RTI). She has all the symptoms anyway (sneezing occasionally, clicking sounds, etc.) and before it gets any worse I am trying to be proactive. In searching for how others dealt with this, I found a thread included a home treatment involving Vicks Vaporub and Eucalyptus oil both mixed with boiling water while the snake is in a small ventilated tub inside of a larger airtight tub with the concoction steaming up and the snake compelled to inhale the steam, thereby clearing up the RTI. Unfortunately, I've since lost the link but am ready to try what they suggest, as my Lilly is almost ready to lay eggs and I'm concerned that a trip to the vet might entail antibiotics, which I'm not sure but may not be good for a gravid snake.

Does anyone know if this treatment has been successful with anyone on this forum? They claim 100% success with this but I'm from Brooklyn and didn't arrive here yesterday from Pleasantville, if you get my drift. I may have to take her to the vet anyway, but I've gotten so much valuable info from this forum that I almost feel like I HAVE to check with you guys FIRST!

Lilly is 8 years old, is a little over 3 feet long and weighs 478 grams in her gravid state. She mated with both of my adult males, both also 8 years old. She mated with Bozo, a 5' blizzard corn and Chili-Pepper, a 5' motley bloodred, both on 3/30/16 and the last time on 4/21/16 (they were purchased together as hatchlings and were actually raised and cohabbed together without incident until a concern I had about the two males expressed here on this forum resulted in me separating ALL of them into their own vivs on April 21st).

Needless to say, I love my little sneaky ones as if they were my own children and would never want them to suffer in any way and especially due to my own actions. But in retrospect, I believe a humid lay box I created may be the cause of Lilly's RTI. None of my adult snakes have ever been sick or injured in any way and I even have Ozzy, a 10 month-old offspring of Lilly's whose already approaching 120 grams. I'm hoping to have at least one more clutch from Lilly with the possibility of keeping one or two of her offspring, if it's in the cards!

Does anyone know if a RTI in a gravid snake has a high probability of being fatal? I cringe at the thought but also have to be realistic!

Is this it? http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121452

Sounds dangerous to me. Heat and environmental correction (getting rid of contaminants in the air that may be irritating) are the first step. If this doesn't give immediate improvement then it's vet time for treatment. This is according to the book "What's Wrong with my Snake?" I paraphrased, but you get the idea. This so called treatment in the link above sounds exactly contrary to accepted and medically sound treatment.

I don't use any kind of aromatics or essential oils around my snakes. I don't use perfumes, either. Their respiratory systems are rather delicate and I'm very careful about the air they breathe and I try to minimize things that may irritate their respiratory tract.

Best wishes. If in doubt, I'd consult a vet sooner rather than later.

A vet specialist in reptiles will definitely know what she needs and what will be harmful for her babies. They would not administer anything that would be harmful to the babies unless sacrificing the pregnancy is a better chance of survival for the mother.... pregnancy can be very hard on her as it is so I just suggest cleaning her tank with pure hot water and absolute minimal vinegar... then replace substrate with a mat and water the vermiculite in her nesting box only once... just enough to make it damp... it will stay damp for weeks

Live Green, Live Happy

Also make sure the tank is nice and warm

Live Green, Live Happy

I would strongly recommend contacting a vet before trying any DIY treatments. An RI can get serious if not treated and probably further complicated by her state. Do you have a reptile vet? I know mine will let me call and discuss issues on the phone if anything ever comes up, because you don't want to move her into the vet unless you have to obviously.

What substrate is she on right now? What is the current humidity? What is the warm side temperature?

Hey all!

Thanx so much for the responses! And sorry I didn't get back sooner, I had a non-snake related emergency also! When it rains. . .

But no, thanx for the research dollysmom, it wasn't THAT particular link, but something similar, although I doubt I'd subject my sneaky one to what looked like an old, medieval medical torture!

I DO have a vet who takes care of my kitties and also specializes in reptiles and for now, since Lilly IS almost at the bursting point with eggs, she directed me to put her in a small, dry tub I have, as the viv she is in is really huge since I used that when I cohabbed all 3 adults. That particular viv is made of nylon screen mesh and besides being large, may be too drafty for her right now. The vet recommended, as more than one of you did, a dry and warm environment for a couple of days and if it doesn't clear up, a more aggressive intervention. For now, she only has paper towels for a substrate and a small water bowl but not one large enough to cause more humidity. The tub is heated on one side to 90 degrees and down to 75 on the cool side, with hides on both sides.

I think I panicked, first of all because none of my adult corns have EVER been sick, outside of being treated for mites or ticks about 5 years ago which came with a substrate I'll never use again. I had a black racer with mouth rot YEARS ago (back when Central Park was in a flower pot!) so it's been awhile since I've had to deal with one of my sneaky ones being sick. The other reason I freaked is because Lilly is prego!!!

I've always been careful with my babies because they are MY BABIES! So for now, Lilly is resting comfortably (I HOPE!) under a hide on the warm side of her little hospital tub. Of course, I will keep you all posted and again, sorry for freakin out and thanx again for your supportive responses!

Sounds good! Glad you have a reptile vet. Best wishes. I hope this clears up without further intervention.

Me too! Fingers crossed!

Thanx again!

Glad to hear you have a solution! I use papertowels all the time, but if you don't they are great for when your snake is battling a mild RI as there is no dust or anything to further aggravate symptoms. So that is a great idea. Keep us updated, sending Lilly get well wishes!

Thanx jag! I hope so too but I gotta tell ya I've been more nervous lately than a hooker in a cathedral!! Every time I check on her, Lilly is roaming around (probably because the tub and its surroundings aren't normal for her) and it appears the clicking sound in her throat has increased in frequency! Though my vet has warned me that I'm probably over-anxious which causes me to check on my snake frequently, I am fighting the urge to go back in the room tonight where she is, as I may be exacerbating the whole situation!

It's times like this I regret being in recovery because a couple of Valium would just HIT the spot right now!

Thanx again for the well-wishin!

Has she had her pre-lay shed yet? I had this snake, Mingo, who had normal sheds her whole life. Then, she started getting the puffy throat thing when she was blue. Then, I had her up for sale, and she was in fact sold, and she started making these wheezing sounds (and I _know_ snakes can have some noisy breathing right before a shed, but this was so much worse!) and sneezing and clicking. I told the person that I wanted to hang onto her for a while to make sure she was okay, and then she shed, and then it all went away.

So- just something to consider any time you are expecting a shed. Of course, a vet can listen to the lung and check the sinuses, etc. so you can totally rule out RI, or plan treatment. Glad your mommy snake had a vet visit and have fun waiting for her to lay!

Hi Nanci! How ya been?

No, Lilly hasn't had her pre-lay shed yet and with her, I can almost NEVER tell when she's going blue because her eyes are so red. And to clarify, Lilly didn't go to the vet yet, I just spoke to my vet by phone and she directed me to do some things based upon my reports. But I'm definitely bringing her in soon because the clicking noise hasn't stopped and her throat does seem to inflate on every fifth or sixth breath but it depends upon if Lilly's moving or sedentary. And it's not blowing up like a balloon or anything like that but just a subtle and slight enlargement. She still flicks her tongue rapidly and doesn't open her mouth at all and there are no bubbles or discharge from her mouth or nose. But after looking into Rossi's book, "What's Wrong with My Snake?" which Dollysmom actually quoted but I was too anxious to even realize till later on, I did a total cleaning of Lilly's viv while she's in her hospital tub. Rossi says that what looks like a respiratory problem sometimes is environmental in nature and that prior to diagnosing an RTI, the snake's housing should be checked for potential irritants.

But I do appreciate your input as I didn't know that a shed could actually cause something like this also! One of the reasons I just LOVE this forum!!

Thanx again!

Lilly in Labor!

Wow! At about 4:30pm I was checking on Lilly in her little hospital tub and noticed that she pooped slightly (mostly clear) and might not have seen it if it weren't for the paper towels on the bottom of the tub. I placed her in her regular viv while I tidied up and when I finished I went to retrieve her to put her back in the clean tub. When I got back I noticed that she had retreated to a hide on the cool side of her viv. But when I lifted the hide I noticed my little sneaky one had begun to lay her eggs!

While I am excited about her new clutch I am also scared to death for her! She never had a pre-lay shed and with this recent incident of a suspected RTI, she may be prematurely evacuating her eggs. I noticed her mouth slightly open as the third egg was coming out, so I actually put a larger hide over her and shut the lights so as to decrease any stress she's already in.

My vet is not available by phone right now (I already left messages on her service AND her cell!) and I'm wondering if anyone has ever had a snake begin laying without a pre-lay shed and with their mouth open like that?

Any and all feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Whoa!!! A dozen eggs so far and it looks like Lilly's got at least 7 or 8 more!!! Her mouth is still open a little, which is a little nerve-wracking! �� �� ��

Keep us posted. Once she's done laying you will be able to concentrate on getting her well. She sounds like a little trooper.

19 so far with at least 1 more ready to come out! It's been a little over 3 hours into it. But my heart sinks when I see Lilly's face with her mouth slightly open. Doesn't appear she knows who I am and has what looks like a 1000 yard stare! Can't even notice her breathing at all and had to touch her just to make sure she was alive!

Talk about AMBIVALENCE!!! Don't know whether to be happy, sad, or to go BLIND!!! I really hope my Lilly makes it out of her ordeal OK. Needless to say, I feel pretty shitty right now as I purposely caused this to happen!! Oh well, it IS what it IS!

Lots of Unnecessary Drama?

Wow! Here I am again! Almost midnight on a Saturday night in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, and here I am, a supposedly hardened street-thug, former dope fiend, and ex-con who turned over a new leaf a quarter of a century ago, and who became somewhat softened and mellowed by a formal education and a career as a clinical social worker and licensed psychotherapist, one who's supposedly seen multiple lifetimes worth of human misery occasionally blessed with the rare miracle of the beautiful redemption of the human spirit, and I was TOTALLY and UTTERLY reduced to a babbling WUSS at the onset of a medical emergency involving one of my PETS!!!??? (BTW, my other "hobbies" over the years have included Skydiving and long distance running - completed 6 NYC Marathons! - so I'm also an accomplished adrenaline junkie!!!)

Holy Snake Skins!!!!

While I babble on and as my kittens look at me wondering WHAT the HELL I'm doing tapping into this small, black device, I would just like to take a moment to apologize for my previous and current rants and raves! No doubt the result of a cluttered brain cloaked in a chemically-untreated, bipolar mind!

Oh and by-the-way, Lilly seems to be doing fine and resting so far. She drank a ton of water when I gently guided her face-first into her water bowl as she firmly, though weakly wrapped around my wrist for support. After her 19th and last egg (sorry I initially mis-counted), I picked her up gently, her mouth abruptly closed and she began flicking her tongue (thankfully!) and just looked around as if she was wondering what was going on!

There does seem to still be a clicking sound coming from her occasionally but it may be due to her nostrils being blocked up by the powdery residue of the coconut fiber I use as a substrate (actually works like a kitty-litter for snakes and is easy to clean and makes it even easier to spot ANY discharges from my sneaky ones). This probably happened when she was burrowing and looking for a place to LAY as I removed her lay-box when she began that clicking sound, initially fearing the humidity could further harm her and also since she hadn't had her pre-lay shed as of yet! I tried everything to get it out of her little nostrils but it may only resolve itself with time and her next shed, which is now WAY overdue!

I think I'll shut up and go away now. If you're still reading, then you either have nothing to do or you are, for some reason, still interested in my mindless chatter! So I'll end with the note that I DID get a few snapshots of Lilly laying her clutch. Posted them in the public profile section and added a small album entitled, "Lilly Getting Down to Business!" or something like that!

Later on!!!

Congrats! So glad she layed them all. Hopefully, both Lilly and you can get some rest today

Thanx Jag!!

That's a very sweet thought!! The fact (I thought I'd lost everyone with my excessive rambling!)

I KNOW I'm obsessive! I once went to a 12-Step meeting for those afflicted with OCD, but it didn't work out. You see, before every meeting begins, the members have to recite the 12 steps, but since everyone has OCD, they ALL began to say the first step 12 times and before I knew it, we were on our way to reciting 144 steps! Needless to say, I left early but others swear this meeting, which began last October 3rd, is STILL going on!! LOL!!

Thanx again!

First of all- you need a hug!!! And who could forget one of the longest threads ever- Rich's thread about his first year breeding. You're not alone

Yup, snakes can and do lay without having a pre-lay shed. That's why you always remove the large water bowl as soon as the snake is done breeding! And give her a lay box right away!

And that stare- that's the look of a snake who is or is about to lay eggs. I have a post somewhere about that. If the mom is popping in and out of the lay box- not ready. In there, staring off into space- eggs are coming shortly!

Also- that's why it's a good idea to get your incubator up and stabilized, and have all your egg box supplies ready as soon as the snakes are done breeding, too.

Congratulations!!