Cloudy eye

[esreivko]

Hi my name is Erik
Yesterday while stopping for coffee I found a beautiful corn snake half dead in the parking lot (6am in michigan it was 27*f). Needless to say I skipped the coffee. Fast forward thru the boring part of story, I now have a new friend. I've had lizards but never a snake before so I dont know a ton about their health. One of Juju's eyes is cloudy and I was hoping for some insight. Blind? Bad shed? I'd appreciate any feedback. Should have a vet appointment soon btw. I attached a pic, hopefully it works properly

[DollysMom]

Yes, I'd consult a vet. Glad you are getting an appointment. I can only guess that maybe it's an infection. It doesn't look like stuck shed to me. A vet should be able to tell you. It may not be permanent blindness, but for now at least, Juju can't really see out of that eye.

I have a corn snake with age related cataracts. She can probably only tell light from dark in one eye. We have been to the vet. There's nothing I can do for her eyes, but she does fine.

Congrats on your new friend. All my best to you both!

[esreivko]

Hi DollysMom
Yea we'll be in to see the vet as soon as possible. I'm not very good at waiting for answers though hence my post. The flash really lit up the eye and made it look clear. In normal lighting its more foggy looking. I'll try to post a better pic tonight. Just hope it isn't anything serious. Thanks for weighing in

[Nanci]

Do you think it could have been frozen? OMG that poor snake. Yes, he needs to get to a vet, and I'd be worried about some sort of respiratory infection or neurological damage from extreme cold. He's so lucky you found him.

Snakes can get cataracts, but it doesn't look like that. They can get bacterial injuries in the eye, causing it to bulge and look cloudy. When the snake is in shed, the eye is actually blue, not white/cloudy.

I have a caresheet down in my personal forum.

Even if he loses the eye, or sight in the eye, he will be fine. Thank you so much for stopping to pick him up.

[esreivko]

Thanks Nanci
From your description it sounds like it's infected. I intend to get Juju to vet asap but I wasn't prepared for all this and spent what money I had on a terrarium, heat etc so I can't afford emergency vet. Hopefully regular vet wont be too bad I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.Tmrw 1st thing I'll be making an appointment at one of the two local vets that handle reptiles. I'm not so much worried abt him/her losing the eye as I am about it becoming more serious. Hopefully it's nothing too bad. He/she is doing well with one good eye currently. I'm just going to keep from doing anything to stress Juju out in the mean time. Thank you for your consideration/info

[esreivko]

Pic of the eye no flash

[esreivko]

Oops, take 2

[Nanci]

It looks like there is a layer of fluid between the spectacle and the eyeball. I have no idea why.

[esreivko]

Yea I've never seen anything like it with any pet I've had. I called 6 vets this morning that all said "I'm so sorry we no longer see reptiles but call this office they do" finally found one that will take us but the herpetologist won't be in until Wednesday. The eye doesn't look any worse and Juju doesn't rly seem to be acting funny. Just wants to burrow and likes warm hands. So hopefully we are all good until our appointment Wednesday. Thanks for the help, I'll do a post-checkup update.

[daddio207]

Your snake's eye looked familiar but I cant recall why but in research to jog my memory I came across this info that might help your Vet make a proper diagnosis.
Hoping for the best !

http://www.anapsid.org/eyebulge.html

Also...

A response to a question about Pop-eye on a ball python forum
"The nasolacrimal duct drains tears from the spectacle into the oral cavity. It can get blocked by substrate, hair from prey or other small items the snake ingests.

Some animals can be predisposed to infections of this duct. Either way, by infection or by blockage, the tears are unable to drain from the eye into the mouth and the eye begins to bulge.

I've had it occur from a blockage via ingestion in a black-headed python. The snake's eye ended up filling up with clear fluid and bulging. Prior to that, he showed a disinterest in food and was rubbing his face on objects in his enclosure. It was also fairly obvious that he was having issues seeing out of that eye.

The Vet diagnosed it immediately and removed the blockage - fur and a bit of aspen inside of his mouth. This was followed by a spurt of clear fluid and immediately his eye was back to normal.

As a precaution against potential secondary infections, he was put on Gentamyacin antibacterial eye drops for 14 days. He has had no recurrence."

[esreivko]

Hey thanks
That sounds alot like what's going on here. Hopefully it'll clear up ok with some treatment. I've made a point to not do any feeding until after seeing vet. I'm glad I can go in there with some ideas of what it could be. I'm just nervous about waiting till Wednesday. Hopefully no other ailments from its time as a street urchin! Appreciate the research

[Scrappyeddie77]

I hope everything works out for this snake
I do wonder what hets this little snake has it looks normal but if I remember the location of corns naturally does not go into Michigan. So that would make me think that this is an escape or a release and with the eye issue I would lean towards release just because it seems like nowadays people are always looking for the easy way out.

I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE AND HITTING THIS ONE OUT OF THE PARK.

I do think the world needs more people like you.
Thank you again


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[esreivko]

Hey eddie
You are very kind to say those things but I think you are giving me too much credit.
I've seen quite a few snakes in my time outdoors fishing and hiking and none of them have been corn snakes. Copper bellies, blue racers, garters, massasauga etc. From what I've read since I found Juju they are native to South and central US. I am leaning towards release as well, there isn't any housing near where I found him/her and I don't see a snake getting very far in Temps below freezing. Humans can be quite cruel. Forest Gump was right in guess. Stupid is as stupid does.

[esreivko]

We saw the vet today. Juju is a little underweight but other than that and the eye everything else seems to be ok. The vet put contrast in the eye to look for mechanical injury and there was none. She also took a swab of the eye. She thinks it's infected and gave me eye drops to give every 12 hrs. The eye seems to be bulging less the last couple days so hopefully with that and the drops it will get better.
Really glad that Juju is fairly healthy overall.
I was wondering approximate age @ 3ft long. Also wondering gender

[Nanci]

Great news!!!

To guess the sex, we'd need views of the tail and the adjoining couple inches of body, with the tail in a straight position, from below and from the side. As a rule of thumb, not a guarantee, males will have a longer tail, with a wider base, to store the hemipenes organ. The female tail is relatively shorter, and tapers quickly right after the vent.

To determine the sex, the snake would need to be probed by someone who knows how to do that.

[DollysMom]

I'm so glad that Juju is overall in good shape and that you have drops for the eye. There is no way to tell the age. If you have a follow up at the vet you can ask to have Juju probed.

As to age, there is no way to know. At three feet she could be 1 year to ? Did you get a weight at the vets? It should be in grams and is often printed on the report/invoice they give you from the appointment. She could be a smallish adult or a largish youngster.

I'm so glad you found Juju and saved her. You are the best!

[Dragonling]

Do eyedrops even do anything with the spectacle in the way? :shrugs:

[Nanci]

Do eyedrops even do anything with the spectacle in the way? :shrugs:

I was wondering about that, too. The spectacle must be permeable, though, don't you think? The eyeball needs oxygen??

When I had Fred who had the retained spectacle, he also had a super-inflamed vein in his roof of his mouth, and I had to give him drops in his mouth, up into the opening up in the top, to get up to I thought his eye...

But I also put ointment on the outside. But that was mostly to moisturize the spectacle.

[Nanci]

Fred's eye problem (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96803&highlight=Fred+spectacle)

So poor Fred got drops everywhere- eye, nares, roof of mouth.

[esreivko]

Juju is 3ft and 150g currently but should be bulking up soon :)

[DollysMom]

Probably 1 to 2 years old but no way to know for sure.

[Nanci]

I guessed older, because he is thin, and just doesn't have that "baby" look to him. I guessed 3-4. A rough 3-4, not a cushy one mouse a week without fail 3-4.

[Nanci]

I think I'd drop off a fecal at the vet and check him for parasites. Who knows what he's been eating. If he has parasites, that would make it harder to put weight on him. Even though I feed FT, virtually every snake I've checked for worms has had them...

[esreivko]

I was abt to ask how long till I can look for a BM. I work on a colo-rectal/urology floor so I'm a lil obsessive abt that by nature lol. As much as I need to not spend any more money than I have this week I intend to get a stool sample for that exact reason. I'd rather be broke with a healthy snake than broken hearted with a deceased snake. God forbid

[Nanci]

With his small meals, you might need to wait till he's on appropriate-sized mice to get a decent poop. But usually they poop about 3-5 days after the meal, maybe a little longer for adults.

(Interesting job- I'm the fluoro coordinator at a hospital- so some diagnostics for adults and peds, and a lot of rule out leak/check unknown surgical anatomy from outside hospitals, etc. Actually, a lot of r/o hirschsprung's, r/o malrotation, eval for VUR, and a billion rehab barium swallows/modified barium swallows. We just had a really cool bladder study, in which the bladder had ruptured in utero- nothing in the literature about that, ever. And just did a BE on an 800 gram patient! I love my job.)

[Twolunger]

I'm so glad that you saved JuJu from certain death. But what's going on with the veterinarians today? Won't see a snake because they don't specialize in reptiles? What are they being taught now, only how to accept dogs and cats as patients? Vets have books and online references available to them and could have easily diagnosed the problem, or at least ruled out some of the causes. I realize dogs and cats are the majority of their business, but to turn away a snake without even attempting to help is a sad commentary.

[esreivko]

Yea I couldn't believe how many vets I had to wade through to find one that would see Juju.

Eye update, still making me nervous :/

[DollysMom]

I know that these are just pictures and from different angles, but the eye looks just a bit better. The fact that the outer skin, which is the spectacle, looks wrinkled, indicates to me that the swelling has gone down a bit, as does the overall appearance. In any case you are doing everything you can so lets hope the eye can be saved. Underneath the spectacle and cornea the eye looks pretty good to me and that is hopeful too.

If the worse does come to pass, I assure you Juju will be fine with one eye. In fact snakes do fine with no eyes. But I do see signs that lead me to be hopeful. Please keep us updated!

[esreivko]

I'm freaking the f out. I got home from work and it looks like it's gonna pop. I wanna throw up

[esreivko]

1am. Just got home. Juju having emergency enucleation. Should be ready to come home in the morning. Thanks to everyone for checking in and providing input. Will post in a few hrs when I get up.

[DollysMom]

Sending prayers and good thoughts!

[esreivko]

Juju is home safe. Looks a little rough and is still dopey but I think things are gonna be ok. Lip is a bit snarled from suture but vet said it would relax back down. Sent home with oral antibiotics and an nsaid. Got a list of specialists, I'll be calling the ones the vet recommend most to make follow up appointment for 2 weeks from now. Also vet said 95% certain it's Ms. Juju

[DollysMom]

I'm glad she's home. Prayers continue for a full recovery. I know she's not out of the woods yet.

I'm so glad she has you. You may not see yourself this way but you truly are one special human being. Juju had a lucky day when it was you who found her.

[esreivko]

Thanks DollysMom

[Twolunger]

Erik. I assume since the Vet had to remove the eye, that there may have been a tumor causing the problem, and she hasn't ruled out cancer. I'm guessing that your act of kindness is going to cost you a lot of money. I wonder if the veterinary staff at MSU could help, since JUJU's condition would be a good learning tool for the veterinary students? Is it possible that your Vet could recommend some local rescues or organizations that can help with funding?

[esreivko]

The vet said the lip would come down but I'm worried about it. I know it's still fresh. I just dont think it would be good if her teeth and gums were exposed on that side long term. :/

[esreivko]

Twolunger
So it didn't sound like cancer but Idk. She didnt say anything about possibility of a tumor. The eye was rly bad and juju was visibly in pain. The options were to Lance it and hope it got better or remove it. I had to consider the fact that if lancing didn't work I couldn't afford both surgeries. Also didn't want to put juju through more pain or operations than necessary. Obviously sedation and infection are always a risk. By the time the vet examined her the eye was even worse than the pic I took. Given the safety concerns, pain, chance of success and the bill we went with removing the eye. Was a very hard decision to make. I do not feel good about the situation but I did my best to make the right choice. I wish it hadn't ever got to that point. As far as MSU I dont rly know anything about their programs and lansing isnt close. For rescues I don't have any idea. I can tell you I had to call 6 vets just to find someone who would give her a check up so I doubt anyone is gonna help. And yes without getting into figures this has been the most expensive 2 weeks of my life.

[DollysMom]

I understand. My Cleo is now a very expensive corn snake and she was a $40 show special to start out with, lol.

You are my hero, Erik.

[Nanci]

Oh God!!! I missed all this!! Poor sweetheart!! How is she feeling now?? Well, on the bright side, she'll be able to start a normal diet without worrying about working around daily eye drops.

[Nanci]

She isn't going to miss it at all. Not at all. You made the right decision. Cornsnakes have not very great sight anyway. She could have gone through weeks of treatment for this eventual end, anyway. Now it will just heal up and she'll be perfectly fine.

I have a foster dog. He had "cherry eye," where the third eyelid gets stuck across. Vets do a surgery to tack it back. He was a stray, so I don't know how long it was like that. So he went in for a neuter, and to get his eye fixed. It had looked so terrible. All I could imagine all day was picking him up and seeing his big golden eye, finally free from the misplaced eyelid. Instead, the eye was removed, because when they went to fix it, the eyeball was dead. I was NOT prepared for that, and I felt such a sense of loss. But the dog- after the stupid thing was healed (there was lots of swelling, itching) he never cared. He hadn't seen from that eye for who knows how long anyway, and it was a relief to have it gone. I mostly forget he doesn't have it, actually.

[esreivko]

Yea we had a hell of a night Nanci. Surgery at 1:30a and I got the call that she was waking up at 5:30a. It seemed a tad worse yesterday morning but not terrible then I got home after my shift and shit had hit the fan for lack of a better term. It was pretty scary. I'm not so much worried about the loss of the eye at this point as much as making sure it heals ok and whether the snarl relaxes so her mouth can be mostly normal. I Don't like her teeth and gums being exposed like that. I can only imagine how hard it would be to suture an eye socket shut on such a tiny scaly head so I understand it being pulled up but it worries me. The vet said it should adjust back down, hope shes right. I've been in classes since this morning so I'm not sure how she's currently feeling. Should be home in a half hour to check. As of this morning she was mostly groggy and seemed more annoyed with it than in pain. I'm guessing that suture has her feeling some pressure. Suture is to stay in for a couple months and we were sent home with oral meds. Going to make follow up appointment with specialist for 2 weeks. Gonna have to get her a pirate ship hide and start calling her Captain Juju :P . I appreciate the reassurance as I'm stressin and gone into full papa bear mode

[esreivko]

Day and half after eye removal surgery. She ate several pinkies 5 days ago. I found what looks like partially digested pinkie. I called vet that did surgery she wasn't in and her partner wouldn't speak with me unless I came in. I told her I gave them $700 2 days ago and can't afford $100 just to talk to her but she didn't care. All this was communicated through a tech. I'm having trouble editing pic to be small enough to post without cutting in half. I'm guessing she threw up? Should I be worried?

[esreivko]

Head-looking half

[esreivko]

Tailish end and lumpy guts looking stuff

[DollysMom]

In this case, it is hard to tell. First off, that should have been long enough to digest the pinkies. But with the medical problems who knows? How does it smell? Some of what i see looks more like poop. If Juju did regurge it couldn't be helped at this point. She had to have the surgery. But from your pictures I'm not so sure. An in focus picture with something for scale would help. Maybe a coin?

My prayers are still with you. If it is a regurge we will help you through it.

[esreivko]

Abt an inch long. What do you do if she did throw it up?

[Nanci]

There are reptile probiotics called Nutribac. You can order it on line. You'd sprinkle it on her meals for the next couple months.

The regurge protocol is to not feed for 10ish days. This basically works out to skipping the next scheduled meal. Then you feed a meal half the size of what the snake regurged.

However, your snake isn't eating normal size prey yet, and has had a ton of stress, and so has had the perfect conditions for stress-induced regurge (as opposed to too large a prey item, or too low temps), so I think I'd give her a week from yesterday before attempting to feed, and then I'd feed either a fuzzy, or 2-3 pinks, then if that goes well, after her two week check up, a hopper? Then a week later, a weanling?

Also, we don't know when her last meal was before she was rescued, so her digestive system could have been pretty empty, probably was by the looks of the poo, and it certainly doesn't hurt to work her up to her normal prey size gradually.

[DollysMom]

Absolutely. If in doubt it will never hurt a snake to follow the regurge protocol. Nanci outlined it with some modifications, but here's the direct link (partway down the page under FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment)

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342

Just be aware that Nutribac is a probiotic ("good" bacteria). I'm not sure that using it at the same time as an oral antibiotic is a good idea. After Juju is done with her antibiotics I imagine it would be no problem. If anyone has any further info about mixing Nutribac with an antibiotic, please speak up. I don't know for certain, I'm merely concerned.

[esreivko]

Ok I'll look into it. I know they've helped me alot since I really sick 5 years ago my insides have never been the same I imagine they would help her too. I feel bad that I have this posted in 2 places now but I was trying to get help rly quick last night and vet sucked. We have appointment with specialist Monday morning

[DollysMom]

Take the poop pictures with and ask the specialist about the antibiotic, probiotic possible conflict. Best wishes and prayers continue for Juju.

[Twolunger]

Rather than think of antibiotic, think of antimicrobial. Antimicrobials don't distinguish between good and bad bacteria. While administering an antibiotic (antimicrobial) medication it is a waste of time to also administer a probiotic. The good gut bacteria will be killed along with the bad. However, I would immediately do as Nanci suggested, and have the Nutribac on hand to begin providing good gut bacteria as soon as the medication is stopped.

[esreivko]

Yea I'll talk to vet abt it. Anyway I'm only handling her to give meds. Trying to pretend it doesn't look like shit so I can get thru midterms and work and finally see vet mon morning. It's fine everything's fine...

[esreivko]

Sry abt the cuss I wasn't thinking. Alot of emotions lately. I'm sure I'm breaking some rule

[Twolunger]

It's understandable, and we are all on your side. It's something we would all do if in your shoes. Keep up your spirits and let JuJu know everything will be okay. Good luck with the
Midterms.

[Nanci]

No problem about the cuss! I wouldn't have even noticed if you hadn't said anything :-)

[DollysMom]

Sending good thoughts and prayers for you and Juju. It is so difficult to concentrate on the things you have to do when you are so concerned for a little scaley one.

Thanks for your input on the probiotic, Twolounger. You said it so much better than I could.

[Zombiegirl]

I told her I gave them $700 2 days ago and can't afford $100 just to talk to her but she didn't care.

As a technician, this kind of stuff really chaps my hide...it's stuff like that that gives us a bad name and people saying we're only in this for the money *snort*

I'm sorry your scaly one is sick, I hope the specialist can get her back on the right track.

[Nanci]

Yeah, isn't a follow up visit usually included in the cost of a major surgery?

Anyway, you should post pics of her wound- it's looking really good! Isn't today the day she goes to see an actual snake vet?

And you can use picresize.com to get your pics to a more manageable size :-)

[esreivko]

I will get them up I've just been rly busy. We go to vet this morning, I'm excited to see someone who knows their stuff. Hope it's all good news. I'll post update after

[DollysMom]

Thinking good thoughts and hoping you and Juju have a great visit.

[esreivko]

Gotta run to class but appointment went pretty well. He said the only thing he'd have done differently would have been to have me injecting meds instead of oral. We are done with meds and can try feeding soon. As long as she eats ok everything should be right on course. I feel much better abt everything. You guys rock

[Nanci]

Such excellent news!! Don't forget probiotics (Nutribac)!

A video for your enjoyment: the amazing Kathy Love. I learned how to probe from her!!

MJQ69oeqdPI

[Nanci]

(Not saying you should do that- just saying that's how we sex cornsnakes)

[esreivko]

Cool thanks I'll take a look

[DollysMom]

I'm so glad that Juju is on the mend! Good news indeed.

[esreivko]

So juju popped the suture, I found it hanging off yesterday so I clipped off the hanging bits and today when I tried to clip the remaining knot it came right out. I'm glad cuz that knot left in the lip hurt every time juju bumped it on something (which being blind on that side happened roughly every 3 seconds). I dabbed a tiny bit of alcohol like I'd do for myself. Idk what else I'd do. It needs to heal where the suture came out but it looks better than I expected. Here's a current pic

[esreivko]

Also I was gonna pick up some triple antibiotic unless someone has a better plan. Appreciate any input. Thanks guys

[DollysMom]

Juju is definitely looking better. I'm so glad.

I would stay away from alcohol. Just be sure that the antibiotic you get is plain and doesn't have pain reliever in it.

[Nanci]

I'd run it by the vet, maybe, but I'd do a couple betadine soaks, where you dilute it to weak tea color, and let him soak in it. The thing with snakes is you should soak them in plain water first, because otherwise they drink the betadine soak. So you have to make sure they aren't thirsty.

Triple antibiotic is good too, but it gets everything stuck to it.

I think she looks great. This will be a good example for the future, if anyone needs to be reassured that the lip will go back to normal!

I don't know if snakes enjoy being handled, but it might be nice for her to just have some time when she isn't being "treated." Sit and watch TV with her and let her just cuddle with you.

[smale492]

Hate to drag this back up.. but I spent all morning reading this now i'm invested. Updates?

[esreivko]

Sorry I've been busy with school and forgot to update. Looks rly good imo. This is after first shed. Heads up It's gonna be rly big because I'm posting from my phone per usual

[DollysMom]

Juju is healing up nicely. Thanks for the update! Glad to see this.

[smale492]

Looking good!

[Dragonling]

She's healing up well, good to see. :)

[rdoyle225]

Looks great!

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