Opinions on WC

[Itsnowingcorns]

OK I finally plucked up the courage to start this thread :D
I want to know everyone's views on catching wild corns, it's wrong I tell you, wrong!!

[Quigs]

I feel it really depends what you are talking about here. There are more than one scenario.

I do not agree with collecting hundreds or thousands (just a random number) of anything, not only cornsnakes, and wholesaleing them on the open market.

This is where my opinion differs though. If you live in an area or know someone that does, where cornsnakes thrive in the wild. I see catching, housing and propegating "SOME" wild snakes as "new blood". In all actuality, I think it makes our lines stronger in the long run!

Locale Okeetee's are a great example! And even though I haven't seen Chip on this forum in a long time, I will use him as an example as well.

Chip Bridge's has one of the top lines of locale Okeetee's out there, in my opinion. He collects corns from the Okeetee Hunt Club property and breeds the best looking ones together to produce some phenominal offspring! They are all true locale specimens and they are just stunning!

I think this goes both ways. Of course it's only my opinion.

[Traci1]

Personally, I think it's fine as long as laws / regulations are being followed for whatever area they are being collected in.

For example, in Pennsylvania, I know I am allowed to catch and keep up to two Eastern Milk Snakes. I am NOT allowed to sell them or even to breed them and sell the offspring. If I would purchase a CB Eastern Milk from a breeder, I need documentation to prove that I did indeed purchase a CB animal and didn't just go out and collect one from the wild in PA.

People need to be aware of the laws in their area and follow them.

[Traci1]

And I totally agree with what Quigs said too.

[Itsnowingcorns]

This is the problem, no matter how much people talk to me about the good of WC I just can't accept it. No I wouldn't have my lovely corns now if they had never been wild caught in the first place. No we wouldn't see all the beautiful colour morphs. No our knowledge of these wonderful creatures would never have become what it is today. But I can't help it, corns in the wild can be left alone now can't they? We've got our captive ones, can't we just leave the wild ones to be wild?

[CrazyCorn]

I am sorry, but if you don't except it take up a new hobby. You can sing a sad song all you want but it wont stop anything. :sobstory: You are a hypocrite IMHO if you keep corns but are against the collection of WC snakes. Again this is MY OPINION. :-puke01:

[V.F.T.]

im with Quigs on this one

[Itsnowingcorns]

Call me a hypocrite if you will, I am against the collection of wild corns, are my corns wild caught? Take a look at my avatar and guess.

Edit: Sorry looking back on that post just want to say I am not meaning to sound rude. I don't want to get into any petty little arguments here.

[mbdorfer]

I think Quigs "hit the nail on the head" with this one.
There is an increasing need for new bloodlines in this hobby.
Remember where all the captives came from.
We wouldn't even be talking about this if Dr Bechtel never collected those snakes years ago.
And now I'm plucking up the courage to ask, why you feel so strongly about this, being in the UK

[CrazyCorn]

Call me a hypocrite if you will, I am against the collection of wild corns, are my corns wild caught? Take a look at my avatar and guess.
Where do you think all the CB corns came from? Do you think they just appeared one day?
no matter how much people talk to me about the good of WC I just can't accept it So why did you start up this thread anyway? You even said you just can't accept it so why did you start this thread? You want to have "petty" arguments about it?
it's wrong I tell you, wrong!! You expect me to take you seriously when you won't even accept others views or opinions? :shrugs:
I don't know what it is but most of the people who post on forums like this wonderful one really have differing opinions about what I do and quite a few people do here in the U.S., Example: I have kingsnakes, I had a few corns to cull so I fed them to my kings, only one person from the UK had anything good to say about it and most of the people from here in the US and Canada were fine with it, just one of many differences you have to accept and I do but I can't help to comment about it when people come here and state irrational things like you.

[CrazyCorn]

Oh yes and I do agree with Quigs on those points.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Oh well excuse me CrazyCorn, if you'll notice I do know how we got corns and I said I understand about that! I said I feel it's not fair to catch them anymore since we've got captive ones now. Of course I value your opinions, I'm sorry for getting so defensive, you're right about me being so stupid and I sincerely apoligize. I wanted to see if there was any good reason for catching wild corns now, and wanted to see if anyone agreed with me too. CrazyCorn I feel you are attacking me a little too much, at least give me chance to explain myself. I would write more but I'm tired and going to bed, (6 hours ahead here in the terrible UK), oh on that note of the UK, there's no need to be so prejudiced like that. Can we STOP this argument now before it gets stupid. Goodnight.

[CrazyCorn]

"prejudiced" I am not, just an observation, I never said you were stupid I just meant that if you can't accept others views such as on the topic of catching corns then why post a thread on it, just to try and make others feel they are wrong and should stop all collecting of all corns? I would have never gotten started in this hobby 5 years ago if it weren't for me moving to an area abundant with corns, my first 3 corns were WC, I still keep them to this day, there are alot of variance in wild corns and I find the more beautiful than CB corns myself, their is not a real epidemic right now of mass poaching of wild corns since there are so many CB out there now. Alot of people I speak to started out with WC corns and thats what got this hobby going like it is, I still hear story's from younger and older people who find a corn and fall in love with to the point they come to the petshop I work at to buy it tons of goodies and buy 1 or 2 more CB corn since they like them so much, I do not see how you could be against this but I accept your views.

[Jimmy Johnson]

As it has been stated, it is wrong for the commercial collection of corn snakes but also as stated, if the laws allow and the snakes are there I have absolutely no problem with a person catching a nice corn snake, rat snake, king snake or any number of other species, and taking that specimen home as a pet.
In my area there are only a few people who even keep snakes. That number is growing thanks to the strides taken in captive care and breeding but of the few in this area that keep snakes an even lower number would actually take the time or make the effort to find and catch a wild snake. I honestly do not see the numbers being depleated by this random acquisition of wild specimens.
If loss of habitat and other factors cause the numbers to decrease and protections are placed, then obviously they should not be taken but as long as this isn't the case, why not?

By the way... I would like to hear the answer to the question posted a couple of threads up.
Why are you so hell bent against it when you are in the UK. Not even any corn snakes there.

[starwarsdad]

I follow the same philosophy on wild caught snakes that I do with fish - catch and release. I love to hunt / catch wild non-venomous snakes and take pictures. Then I let them go. Of course, around here I do not know of any wild populations of corns.

[eddie1976]

I personally do not see the harm in a wild caught corn or two. As long as it is in a sustainable population. If you wanted to catch a new jersey locale corn than no way but down where they thrive and do well, all the power. Well said quigs!

[JTGoff69]

I have to agree with Quigs as well. I don't advocate catching wild corns in mass numbers, but where they are native and thriving, I would not have a problem with catching one myself (actually I'd be thrilled to see one here, all I've seen are black rats) and eventually breeding it with my cbs. The odds of hatchlings' survival in the wild aren't exactly high to begin with. Many more deer are shot here every year than could ever come close to a herper collecting a wild corn or two. :wavey:

[Itsnowingcorns]

OK, to those who say why am I bothered because I'm in the UK, it doesn't matter where I live, WC is still happening, so I care. IMO catching and putting them back is fine, I just don't like the idea of keeping them in a cage if they were born in the wild. I accept EVERYBODY'S opinion, and I never said I didn't.
Example: I have kingsnakes, I had a few corns to cull so I fed them to my kings, only one person from the UK had anything good to say about it and most of the people from here in the US and Canada were fine with it
What are you trying to say here? Are they not entitled to their opinion even if they did disagree with what you did?
Now, the final question, does ANYBODY agree with me? (Most likely not)

[eddie1976]

I do not think that is that nobody agrees with you. The poll proves it. I think that the pro componet of this question is just more vocal. But healthy debate is what keeps the world going on anyway.

[Itsnowingcorns]

As long as it's healthy debate, and no arguments :P

[eddie1976]

Well we do not want to start a WC vs CB war. THat wouold be dumb, but express opinions away. No one will prbably be swayed one way or the other. But this is an interesting topic. But new blood is needed just to keep negative recessively heritable traits from becoming the norm. One way to put it on a smaller scale, is the major occurances of hemophilia among the royals back when they married within strict family trees, right?

[Itsnowingcorns]

Yes I understand what you and Quigs are getting at, and corn snakes are already heavily inbred to my knowledge. Just, they should only be caught for that really, not personal pleasure. IMO!!

[gardenmum]

I personally do not feel there is anything wrong with someone collecting WC corns if they can and feel so inclined. And this is my reasoning.

You do not find a ton of people out combing the country side looking for WC corns. So it is not like people are out there wipping out the wild populations. Most people that catch and collect them are doing so to improve their lines in some way, whether it be new blood or a paritcularly interesting speciman that they hope may hold the key to a new type. There are a few people who do collect to sell, but obviously that is not the norm otherwise you would see a myriad of adds with wild caughts for sale, which we do not see. Wild caught specimens are definitely not in high demand as the CB morphs far outshine most WC and people are more attracted to the CB's, and without a lucrative market the incentive to catch them for profit is very dimineshed. So, I do not feel that the demand for WC specimens posses any threats to the wild populations.

I am sure that the amount of these animals that are run over on the roads yearly FAR outweighs any impact that collectors make on the species. This is a shame, but an unavoidable problem.

So, if some people really want to add a wild caught speciman to their collection for their reasons, I see no problem with it. Lucky for all of us corn fans, the people who first started collecting and keeping them as "pets" have allowed us to reap the benefits by the present hobby we have. Do we "NEED" more wild caughts to aid the corn hobby? I would say the argument to say NO would be right. But does what collecting that occurs harm the wild population? I also don't think so. Heck, when the first herping of corns happened years back, that was when the pull on the WC populations would have been high and yet it did not dessimate the species.

Given all this and the fact that more are probably killed by people who "hate" snakes and kill any they see in their yards than by the collector and the fact that at least with the collector the snake is not being killed, I have to say definitely no, I do not feel it is wrong or bad to collect them.

NOW if you said people were collecting them by the thousands for the sake of killing them, than yes, I would be up in arms over it. But as it stands, I do not feel I have a right to judge if someone wants to add a WC to their collection. And I also don't feel I should judge if that person is collecting one for the joy of owing a WC specimen. It is no different than us owning the CB ones, just because ours are CB does NOT mean that they are "happy" being in confinement. So, if someone owns a CB corn, they really are not any different than someone owning a WC one in my opinion. It is the care they give the snakes they own that is HIGHLY important. :)

[CrazyCorn]

No, I am not saying that they are wrong for disagreeing with me, I just merely used it as an example of how different the two sides of the ocean are and think. This is not an argument, trust me, I just feel strongly that it is ok to collect corns and I always will, There is an ample amount of corns still in the wild, I start seeing them around February and I was still catching them until december 16th, they all were with in one mile of my house, the total number this year was around 20+ of all ages and looks. I still don't see why you are so bothered by this, in all reality if anyone should be worried it should be us over here on this side of the ocean, why not focus more of the poaching of more endangered species like Shingle back skinks and such.

[CrazyCorn]

Just, they should only be caught for that really, not personal pleasure. Why do you feel this way? I feel keeping one or more corns for pleasure to be fine, I do so myself. Does that make me evil? Just because I like the beauty and alot of the different attitudes of WC's? Do you think they are being poached by the thousands or something? Trust me they are not. What is wrong with keeping a WC for pleasure? I do so since I like to see the beautiful babies they throw. You seem to be changing your story now, 1st ITS BAD, 2nd I feel its wrong, 3rd Its ok for new blood, 4th now what? Oh its ok as long as you don't do it on a monday?

[eddie1976]

:-offtopic This is a little off topic but I like that little beauty you found on the road. THe pic on the website is great!

[Itsnowingcorns]

CornCrazy, I changed my mind about WC corns for stronger bloodlines, I had never thought of this, that's why. Why are you being repeatedly rude to me? Am I not allowed to disagree with WC just because I live in a different country? I have no problem with your judgement, you can enjoy catching wild corns all you want, it's just a thing I disagree with that's all. Can you please stop the offensive posts?

[CrazyCorn]

Thanks Eddie, I do not feel as though my posts are rude, I am sorry you feel that way. I would actually like my questions answered I have asked them a couple times. But whatever. YOU said it took you time to build up courage to make this post so did you not expect some hard ball questions?

[Itsnowingcorns]

I have answered all of you questions CrazyCorn, if you want to be rude to me do it over PM. Tell me anymore questions I have missed if you want.

[CrazyCorn]

PM'ing is not for being rude. Here are the questions.
What is wrong with keeping a WC for pleasure?
why not focus more of the poaching of more endangered species like Shingle back skinks and such.
Quote:"no matter how much people talk to me about the good of WC I just can't accept it" So why did you start up this thread anyway? You even said you just can't accept it so why did you start this thread? You want to have "petty" arguments about it?
Thanks.

[Itsnowingcorns]

OK, here's my answers to your questions:

I disagree with WC because if a corn was born in the wild, I feel it should stay in the wild, it's not fair on it to keep it in a cage when it was so used to life out in the open. You will probably talk about me not realising where we got corns in the first place but I do, but now we have CB so we don't need WC anymore, unless to make bloodlines stronger which was explained to me by Quigs. Yeah I don't feel too happy about that either but I feel better about it than WC that are caught for the pleasure of the capturer.

What do you see me as? One of those, what I've seen Americans say on this site, PETA members? I wanted to know what others thought about this matter, yes I am sorry I responded too much making it seem as though I'm trying to change other people's way of thinking and I again apoligize. I care about all animals, if I was to support an endangered species fund then it would seem unfair to chose one. Plus I have no money! I'm still in school, I cannot get a job.

Again I say I started this post to see other's views on the matter, but not to change my own. Yes my view has been changed slightly thankful to Quigs, but I still stay mostly by my own judgement, as will everybody else.

[Jimmy Johnson]

I disagree with WC because if a corn was born in the wild, I feel it should stay in the wild, it's not fair on it to keep it in a cage when it was so used to life out in the open. You will probably talk about me not realising where we got corns in the first place but I do, but now we have CB so we don't need WC anymore, unless to make bloodlines stronger which was explained to me by Quigs. Yeah I don't feel too happy about that either but I feel better about it than WC that are caught for the pleasure of the capturer.

Unfortunately your reasoning here just doesn't really hold up.
Snakes can't comprehend fair or unfair.
When corns are kept in captivity, conditions are better then in the wild. They do not have to compete for food, they do not have to go long periods between meals, they have optimal temperatures at all times so they don't have to search out these temperature ranges, they do not have to avoid predators and they definitely won't get run over by a car. Due to these factors and others, corn snakes live much longer in captivity.
So, if there was a fair or an unfair it would seem unfair to leave them in the terrible conditions of the wild...lol
As far as being kept for the pleasure of the captor????? That is why we have corn snakes. They bring us pleasure. We like them! Is there really any difference between keeping a captive bred corn snake or a wild caught corn snake for pleasure. Wild caught corn snakes adapt to captivity quickly and make excellent pets so it can't be THAT bad on them.
Oh well, some of us are fine with moderate removal from the wild and some of us are against it. This has been the same forever and will continue to be so.
Very rarely does either side change it's mind so if you take from the wild be responsible and if you are against taking from the wild, don't do it.
Just for the record, I do not have any wild caught snakes at this time but if I find the right corn snake specimen in my area I will not hesitate to add it to my collection.
In the '80's I had a wild caught corn, five wild caught black rat snakes and a wild caught eastern/black king snake and can tell you they were definitely doing better in my care then they would have in the wild.
ok, I'm done now....LOL

[Itsnowingcorns]

OK, I have heard many people say this about WC, not having to compete for food, no danger of being ran over etc. But the way I think of it is this:
Imagine if you were taken from your everyday life and put in a room. The room has a heater that keeps it at a constant temperature that is comfortable for you. There is a bed for you to sleep in. There is a chair for you to sit on. Every day you will be fed cereal in the morning, sandwiches at midday and a chicken dinner in the evening. There will also be a toilet facilities and a shower. Everything will be kept clean for you, you don't have to do anything to earn it, just live in this room. Yeah, you might get a TV if you're lucky. So you have been taken from your normal life and you now live like this. You've never got to worry about work again. You'll never be in danger from car accidents, murderers or anything else that can harm your life. This is now your home, you stay until you die.
Is this not the human equivalent more or less of WC? Yes CB live like this but they have never lived anywhere else, and they would be kept in a viv no matter what, that's what they have been born to. You'll probably say that the wild corn won't remember its previous home but how could anybody be sure? We don't know what's going on in their minds and probably never will.

[Traci1]

But the mental, emotional, physical needs of a snake cannot be compared to the needs of a human being. Snakes and humans are no where near at the same "level" when it comes to those things..(for a lack of a better word).

[Itsnowingcorns]

I know Traci1 but I can't help the way I feel, there are many things we don't know about corn snakes. We don't know whether they really miss living free or feel sadness or other similar emotions.

[WAS1]

Being from the UK, I feel I need to get involved with this debate.
I don`t think anyone is right or wrong here I think its just the way we`re educated on different sides of the "pond".
Here in Britain we have decimated our wildlife over the centuries, and heavy population dosn`t help. Only now are people being educated to care for and look after their environment. Collecting and selling any native wildlife is illegal, and can carry penalties.
Because of this approach our wildlife is making a remarkable recovery and species are being reintroduced and are thriving.
Over in the US you obviously dont have the same problems we have, so view things differently.
So no one is right or wrong, just educated differently over our respective wildlife.

[Itsnowingcorns]

That's nicely said WAS1.

[rippit]

:-offtopic

Who would've thought - a (minor) flame war without Jicin at the epicenter!

Speaking of which, what ever happened to our little antichrist of the forums? Haven't seen her post anything lately. (Man, I hope mentioning her name doesn't make her reappear.)

[rippit]

And no, I'm NOT going to do this, but what I would like to do would be to release a few CB corns INTO the wild. They're not native to PA, and IMHO, any creature that preys exclusively on mice and rats would be a welcome addition to the local ecology.

And once again, for those of you out there inclined to nail me on this, I will not be releasing any CBs into the wild ;)

[Itsnowingcorns]

Hehe, rippit I have read some of Jicin's posts. She has left because she has had enough of this forum, I speak to her regularly on AIM and enjoy talking with her, I guess you all just caught her bad side.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Oh and releasing CB into the wild IS an intersting idea, though nobody will try it I'm sure.

[rippit]

Hehe, rippit I have read some of Jicin's posts. She has left because she has had enough of this forum, I speak to her regularly on AIM and enjoy talking with her, I guess you all just caught her bad side.


You mean she has a GOOD side??? :grin01:

[Itsnowingcorns]

LOL, she didn't start all those arguments. Alot of the time I read posts where people sparked off at her for just giving plain old normal advice.

[Jicin]

Quite a bit of innapropriate, but par for the person saying it, garbage deleted - Rich Z


Don't bother to reply. I'm off.


Yes Jicin, you are, in more ways then one. :-poke: - Rich Z

[howiet4702]

I am so glad my son didn't read that last post! Are you kidding me? What the hell is wrong with you ? Please have someone delete that last post. :realhot:

[Hurley]

Very nice. There are children on this forum. You have no way to express yourself other than that?

Step off. You're better off there anyway.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Well talk about bad timing to stick up for someone.....

[gardenmum]

This is just unbelievable. And whoever this person is, is supposed to be an "adult?"

Itsnowingcorns, you think this person has a good side and is a nice person???? WOW.

[howiet4702]

With a outbreak like that, she needs to be banned! I'm sorry........

[Spirit]

Wooooooaaaaahhhh... I'm all for people being free to speak their minds (in any which way) but that was way innapropriate.

[gardenmum]

You know, whoever she is, she could learn an awful lot about tempers and polite disagreements by the people she "puts down" on these forums. A great example is the debate now taking place on the morphs section. People definitely on two sides of the fence, some in between, but all expressing themselves without throwing temper tantrums and using vulgar language. Obviously this person here has not had a chance to mature yet. A shame. Life is going to be a very bumpy road if everything said in opposition to her feelings is snapped at. :nope:

I'm sorry Jicin, but I have read many threads in which you posted replies and sadly you just don't get it. You don't need to agree with everyone or everything but you do need to learn not to make rude remarks to get your point across. I sincerely hope that in time, you will realize this.

Good luck in the future for I don't expect we'll be seeing you on here anymore.

[Itsnowingcorns]

gardenmum I am as shocked as you, she has NEVER behaved like this to me, but then again that's what it's like over the internet isn't it? You think you know people....

[rippit]

...by mentioning her name. Now I think everyone can see why I called her the antichrist of the forums. Isn't she special?

[Rich Z]

Not only special, but gone. I've had enough of her "holier then thou attitude".

[gardenmum]

Thank you Rich. It is one thing to have her flaring her temper at times, but quite another for such language. Geesh.

[howiet4702]

Thank you Rich!

[CrazyCorn]

Things ARE different and thats what I pointed out earlier in this thread, MY intent was not to start a flame war, minor or not. You are using Anthropomorphism - Attaching human like qualitys to animals, My snakes I know for a fact don't give two cents worth of hoots about not being in there home range, They are still feisty, eat well, act no different than the time I have encountered them and many other things that I am too lazy to list. There may never be scientifically a way of 'proving' this, but sure as heck seems to be this way to me.

[Itsnowingcorns]

*Shrugs* I'm just saying that nobody knows what they are thinking. We can presume but we can't know.

[Acradon]

back to the topic

Aren't there enough captive bred corns around. Especially the states should have an overflow. Why still catch some in the wild? There is NO excuse for it. But hey go ahead and catch them all. In the end I can save 10bucks. That's enough for a couple of beers.
Cheerio Gaia

Acradon

[Itsnowingcorns]

Hey thanks Acradon, finally someone who agrees with me, oh and look they're from the UK, expect some more stuff about why should we care :D

[eddie1976]

Noe trying to beat the dead horse or anyhting but I just thought of another advantage of SOME wild caught. I cannot remember the exact thread wording, maybe someone can help me out, but I saw a beauftiful Yellow okeetee lookig corn on a thread a bit back. If I find the thread I will reference it. But this is just showing that sometimes in the wild there are still interesting anomalies to be found. But I want to still say I do not support the commercial collection of corns for sale, just for strengthening the bloodlines and getting some more interesting stuff out there. Okay I found the link

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15838&highlight=yellow+okeetee

Hope this is easy to copy and paste. NOw if you did not believe in keeping wild caught this specimen would not be found or bred for maybe a new morph.

[CrazyCorn]

Aren't there enough captive bred corns around. Especially the states should have an overflow Really we don't have an overflow, ball pythons, Red tails, Leopard Geckos, etc... are more common. I still enjoy having a WC or four around and always will. Oh well I guess some people will never understand... Especially those on the other side of the pond.

[Itsnowingcorns]

We might not ever understand why WC is so good but will you ever understand why we don't like it? Especially those over the pond ;)

[CrazyCorn]

I do understand, and at this point we can agree to disagree for all I care.

[Itsnowingcorns]

And I agree to that.

[cornman1979]

I love a good debate.

I have vote no to wild cought, but it is only because i can't get hold of any (expensive in the UK). I would love a couple especially W/C okeetee, to introduce a "natural W/C" line to my snakes, so i can see both side and their are good valid reasions both for and against.

Quigs were spot on about any new wild traits available being breed into exsiting collections which i do agree with. But i don't agree with mass collection or 7-8 new wild cought every year being introduced into exsisting collections.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Sounds like you're sort of in the middle here Cornman1979, maybe I should have added an extra option to the poll.

[cornman1979]

I am a bit.
I don't totaly agree with it, but i don't totaly dis-agree with it eather. Each to their own, and which ever way people go on this poll, i understand both side's and can see the reasoning of both sides as well.

I give up I still can't make a decision eather way on this 1.

[oldhand]

I believe it helps with keep some of the genitic's true and also help's with producing new strains of corn's. I haven't however had experience with any w/c, but that's what i would imagine.

[CAV]

The real issue is responsible collecting versus the indiscriminate taking of animals. Controlled collecting actually benefits native stock as well as the pet trade. Just my .02

Sorry I missed this thread when it was hot! :rolleyes:

[Chip]

Wild caught and proud! How could you leave this on the road? For the record, I've released more snakes that I've produced than I've removed from the wild. Not a thing wrong with that, IMHO.

[oldhand]

Thats a good looking w/c chip, i love the checkering.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Sure if you release them elrojo IMO.

[Chip]

I never re-release wild caught adults back into the wild. They have been handled and "tamed" and switched to a diet of only frozen thawed mice. They are capive breeders for the rest of their lives. I will, however bring hatchlings to the Hunt Club area and turn them loose. I'm still not sure I understand your opposition to collecting. While there are an awful lot of cornsnakes in the Eastern part of the country; no one in their right mind would hunt for snakes all day in the Okeetee area to sell them or save money! Ha! Besides likely tresspassing; you will encounter rattlesnakes, fire ants, mosquitos, chiggers, thorns, barbed wire, and hard work all hoping you will catch a cornsnake or two worthy of adding to your collection. And what dollar value would one place on this snake? The person who posted about saving ten bucks for beer earlier has obviously never spent a day field herping. :cheers:

[Chip]

OK, I have heard many people say this about WC, not having to compete for food, no danger of being ran over etc. But the way I think of it is this:
Imagine if you were taken from your everyday life and put in a room. The room has a heater that keeps it at a constant temperature that is comfortable for you. There is a bed for you to sleep in. There is a chair for you to sit on. Every day you will be fed cereal in the morning, sandwiches at midday and a chicken dinner in the evening. .

Hmm, good food, clean room, nice bed and chair. Oh! Let's not forget that they get to breed whenever they want, too! I think that sweetens the deal some!

[Itsnowingcorns]

It's not whether there are plenty of corns around or not that bothers me.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Hmm, good food, clean room, nice bed and chair. Oh! Let's not forget that they get to breed whenever they want, too! I think that sweetens the deal some!

LOL, but no more long walks on the beach, basketball games or bungee jumping, or in their case, slithering about (as much as they want).

[Chip]

"It's not whether there are plenty of corns around or not that bothers me."
What is it then? I get that you don't support collecting. I understand that it has little to do with wild populations. Is your rationale that the snakes are less "happy" when removed from the wild? That's certainly something I can't prove. When asked if my animals are happy, I've always just said "they eat and reproduce." A reptile that doesn't adapt to captivity will likely do neither and definitely will not reproduce.

[Itsnowingcorns]

It was born in the wild, it should stay in the wild IMO, you don't KNOW that they are as happy in captivity than in the wild, much as I don't know that they're not. Plus there's the stress of being tamed.

[Chip]

It was born in the wild, it should stay in the wild IMO, you don't KNOW that they are as happy in captivity than in the wild, much as I don't know that they're not. Plus there's the stress of being tamed.
Man, you had me until that last sentence! It's not like breaking a horse or something! You just GENTLY remove and handle the animal when cage cleaning and so forth until it backs off it's rattlesnake impersonation. Then you handle it a little more frequently. :)

[Itsnowingcorns]

And........ You think they're fine with this?

[So Pirate55]

wouldnt it stand to reason that if they were not fine with it, or if it was causing a lot of stress that they would go off feed, not to mention bite quite often?



I think you're applying human traits to a reptile. they advancements b/t the 2 are vast, especially when the brain comes into play. To you, it seems that they are "cooped up", when in reality they are prospering just fine.


Side question: Why would you own something, when you oppose catching them in the wild? That snake was born with the same instincts that the W/C are. It's just that you bring him a meal every week, instead of having to search for one.

[Itsnowingcorns]

*sigh* looks like I have to go through this whole song and dance again. The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild. WC ones were born to a life of doing whatever they want, are you telling me that the snake feels no stress whatsoever when being handled for perhaps the first time ever, and having to get used to it? Yes that's what CB ones go through too, but again, they were born to it, it would happen to them no matter who purchased them. I love animals, and I don't feel alot of guilt owning them because they have never experienced the wild, but I'd never keep one that had. Maybe I'm applying human traits too much to humans yes, and I do know how their brains work (well, what is generally believed) and I apoligise for that.

[Chip]

Elaphe gutatta: we are talking about an ambush feeder. Corns don't chase down food. They will forage when very hungry, and males certainly do some traveling to breed. They risk their lives every time they move. Typically, they lie in wait for a mouse or lizard to wander by. I've caught Elaphe my whole life and only very few were crossing the road or out in the open. Almost every one was found turning things over. An exposed snake is usually a dead snake.

Oh, and all the snakes I've released into the wild were captive-bred.


I believe snakes have NO ability to "miss" being in the wild. Just like I believe that being in the wild is ultimately where they "belong". Snakes will never become a domesticated animal. Even dogs, cats, and cattle were once wild species. Is it right for people to "own" them? I don't struggle with this moral question, personally. I respect that others do, but find it odd that one would be a snake owner. Just out of curiosity, do you have issues with feeding snakes mice?

[Itsnowingcorns]

No, I don't, but if they refuse to eat, (usually before a shed) and I have to throw the mouse away, then I feel very guilty.

[So Pirate55]

The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild.

this is where your thoughts and mine tend to differ. I personally believe that there is no way to "tame" the traits out of a wild animal through breeding over a period of 50 years or so. Sure, you can breed for traits that are more suited to captivity (such as what we perceive as "tame"). However, if you were to release a group of hatchlings back into the wild, then i think they would have the same chance any snake born in the wild would have. In fact, i think they'd have a better chance, b/c hatching conditions would be prime and they'd be born healthy.* They're actions are based off instinct more so than learned ability. That's why the little ones are usually much more nippy than the adults. We're a perceived threat.

We hear stories of snakes escaping and people finding them 4..5 months sometimes a year later. These snakes didnt live b/c a human was feeding them. They're still wild animals. I think we're confusing some for being domesticated. They're not like dogs or cats. Reptiles work on a completely different level.

As for stress, sure they feel a certain amount of stress, but it's no where near the amount that you are describing. As chip said earlier, reptiles usually dont eat and darn sure they dont breed under conditions that are too stressful.







*Condition: all hatchlings would have to be of wildtype phenotype. of course you could not throw a hypo lav or snow into the wild and expect it to make it to adulthood.

Sidenote: I'm not trying to insult you in any way. I just have a different opinion of what's going on. I have to give you props though, to be 14, you certainly are sticking to ur guns rather well.

[Itsnowingcorns]

this is where your thoughts and mine tend to differ. I personally believe that there is no way to "tame" the traits out of a wild animal through breeding over a period of 50 years or so. Sure, you can breed for traits that are more suited to captivity (such as what we perceive as "tame"). However, if you were to release a group of hatchlings back into the wild, then i think they would have the same chance any snake born in the wild would have. In fact, i think they'd have a better chance, b/c hatching conditions would be prime and they'd be born healthy.*

This isn't what I'm saying, I know that they are never going to be tame that way.

[So Pirate55]

The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild.

that was the point i was arguing. I honestly think this debate will prolly have to end on a stalemate. It really doesnt look like we're gettin anywhere with it. i know there's no convincing me otherwise, and looks that goes for the majority here, no matter what side they are on.

[Itsnowingcorns]

Yes, sorry I had to leave for a little while so couldn't explain why that wasn't what I meant. By "The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild." I meant that there's no chance that they'll ever experience the wild, because they are sold as a pet, I'm not saying that they *wouldn't* be able to ajust to the wild.
And I agree, nobody here is changing their minds, I've already debated through all of this earlier on in the thread, let others get a word in, I don't like having to explain over and over.

[bah14]

i suppose you have to start somewhere. However, now-a-days, one could just start with a couple CB's. Guess i dont see the need to catch WC's anymore.

[Jynx]

There are way too many points to argue. People will do things no matter what. And other people will always have an opinion about it. I do understand the point that since there are enough CB leave the WC alone, but again, I own a few WC bullsnakes and az mountain kingsnakes. I didn't HAVE to catch them, I could have bought them. But these are native reptiles to Az, and not many people have them for sale at all. I see both sides of the argument. But without the WC, yes we would have still had CB, but we would have never stumbled on the morphs that make corns so popular (such as your snow).

I do agree with you Snow, and I do find logic in your arguments, but I don't disagree with anyone else either. Out here you don't really find corns in the wild. I would love to go corn-hunting someday on the east coast. Probably not to keep them since I already have enough, but to see my favorite reptiles in their own habitat, so that maybe I will learn how to BETTER care for my CB.

My grandfather always told me, "If it doesn't directly affect you or those around you, leave it alone." I'm in Az, and see no wild corns, so the subject of catching them does not really come up in everyday conversation. As far as I know, there are none in the UK either. Everyone that does hunt for WC does it for their own reasons, and it is legal. Those of us on the outside (like you and I) can have our opinions, but it is merely that.

This thread was an interesting read. I love to hear different opinions. Like was said earlier, "there is nothing like ahealthy debate"

[CrazyCorn]

I TOTALLY agree with Chip, and I still stand on my stance that you know very little of wild snakes from the way you talk. "Anthropromorphism" Look it up. "Giving human like qualitys to animals". They do not 'feel' like we do, they act on instinct than learned behaivour. I again don't see your reasoning on keeping CB but not WC. The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild. No way? They are released all the time and do just fine. I have caught a snake, released it caught it, kept it a while, released it and caught it again yet it was still thriving with no problem. (It had the same weird marking and one scar).
Those of us on the outside (like you and I) can have our opinions, but it is merely that. That is true, I will have to agree to that. I guess I can be a bit biased about the collecting of corns as it is one of the thing I enjoy and do often, only keeping one or two. I know of only a few people who catch corns for sale and they only catch around 20 usually and they don't sell quick (Not a big demand). Oh well I guess I am done beating this long dead horse. 'Stalemate'

[Santa]

Guess i dont see the need to catch WC's anymore.
There is a reason to catch wild snakes and it has already been mentioned - the introduction of new blood lines.

I catch about 3 or 4 corns on my farm every year. I have kept a couple of females and one male for breeding and I have sold a few males (to other breeders - not as pets). All others were released. Oops, I forgot, this fall I found a three foot male nearly frozen in my hay barn one morning after a cold front blew in. I am housing him for the winter and will release him in the spring.

I have purchased CB normals to breed with my WC's. I release half of the hatchlings each year, some on the farm and others in the State Forest that borders my farm. In this way I am introducing new blood lines into my local corn population.

As a farmer, I need wild corns on my property to keep the mouse population under check. The mice are attracted to the feed and grain stored on the farm and the corns are attracted to the mice.

I also use my WC corns to educate my neighbors and their farm workers so that they will not kill any corn snakes.

So, if you can explain to me what is wrong with what I am doing then I will listen. Otherwise, I think that you should reconsider your position.
:santa:

[CAV]

Kudos to you for educating those nonbelievers. ;)

[howiet4702]

Kudos to you for educating those nonbelievers. ;)


I agree! Very cool...

:-offtopic Santa...sent you an email.....

[Itsnowingcorns]

Hmm, that IS a unique perspective, if you released ALL of the WC corns in the end I for one would have no problem. And I even give you a thumbs up for taking care of the frozen corn. But how many people do what you do? Not all are as 'generous' IMO.
Crazycorn: I would like to argue again, but won't, I'm tired of the debate between us, stalemate.

[Chip]

[QUOTE=Itsnowingcorns]Hmm, that IS a unique perspective, if you released ALL of the WC corns in the end I for one would have no problem.

So taking adults out of the wild for breeding seasons (ecologically same as killing them) is okay, but releasing a larger number (while keeping the captives) is a problem? I'll end my input on this thread by reiterating
1) If no one ever caught wild snakes, there would be none in captivity.
2) Who do you think should get the honor of arbitrarily deciding that after a certain number in captivity there are "enough?"

[Santa]

Yes, I am removing "adults out of the wild for breeding seasons". But that is NOT the same as killing them. Killing them removes them from breeding forever, not just one or two seasons.

However, I still believe that I am doing more good than harm by introducing new blood lines into the local population AND releasing more snakes than I catch.

I don't expect everyone (or anyone for that matter) to "honor" me for what I do. I only wanted to make others think before they decide that catching wild corns is always wrong.

[Uncloudy]

I agree with everything Santa has stated, including releasing some back into the wild as rodent control. He's right in that the WC corns are the ones used for breeding proposes and strengthening CB blood lines or locality specific species.
Personally I would never buy a WC specimen except for breeding purposes, but I don't have any problem with people collecting them or obtaining in accordance with their local fish and game state rules.
Uncloudy

[Chip]

I was responding to "snowing," not your post. Ecologically speaking, you and I are essentially doing the same thing.
And extra "props" for educating people. That is the most important thing any of us can do for the betterment of the species. Anyone with calm snakes, consider doing a program at a school, church, boys/girls club, any of these places are happy to have someone come in and do a presentation. Especially if you have native local species to teach identification (and bring some photos of local venomous species.) If only one kid leaves wanting to own a snake or at least not kill every one on sight, it is worth our time.

[medic2]

I agree with Chip. I took the WC that I found last year along with some other snakes (boas, pythons) to my childs school for "reptile day". Most of the kids had never touched a snake, they thought snakes were slimy. After doing a short presentation, I let the kids come up one at a time and touch a snake. Even the kids who were initially terrified of the idea of a snake in the same room with them were curious enough to touch a snake. they initially told me if they saw a snake in their yard they would kill it or have somebody else kill it. They were impressed with how beautiful and gentle the snakes were and promised not to kill one if they found it. If the WC snake saves just one snake in the wild from being killed isnt that what we want, to educate the public?

[CooterJohannson]

I was responding to "snowing," not your post. Ecologically speaking, you and I are essentially doing the same thing.
And extra "props" for educating people. That is the most important thing any of us can do for the betterment of the species. Anyone with calm snakes, consider doing a program at a school, church, boys/girls club, any of these places are happy to have someone come in and do a presentation. Especially if you have native local species to teach identification (and bring some photos of local venomous species.) If only one kid leaves wanting to own a snake or at least not kill every one on sight, it is worth our time.

Chip, you right on the muney brutha. Gotta spend time teachin and educatin about snakes. Folk are jus scared of what they don't know.

Regardless of how ya feel about herpin, herpin is learnin. Every time ya go to the field ya learn somin about reptiles. Like where they livin, what they eatin, when they movin. All of these thangs are important to know for keepin em happy inside ya house. Some of the best keepers are field herpers. ;)

[TrpnBils]

I think I'm gonna have to agree with Quigs' post right from the beginning of this thread. I don't agree with mass collection, but I do understand that "new blood" is something that is necessary sometimes. Personally, I don't think I could do it, but if it's done smartly, then I have no problem with it.

Just out of curiousity, is it legal to release a corn in an area where it's native? If so, would the people who are 100% against WC still feel that way if the WC one was replaced by one individual from the F1 generation? After all, it's filling in the hole left by taking the wild one originally... just a thought...

[Santa]

Just out of curiousity, is it legal to release a corn in an area where it's native? If so, would the people who are 100% against WC still feel that way if the WC one was replaced by one individual from the F1 generation? After all, it's filling in the hole left by taking the wild one originally... just a thought...

I am licensed by the State of NC Dept of Wildlife Resources to collect corn snakes. To qualify for said license, I must submit an annual report of my activities. They don't seem to have a problem with it. I can not speak for other state laws.

[Joejr14]

I agree with the whole thought process that there's nothing wrong with taking a few corns for introduction of new blood lines--nothing wrong with that at all, and it's beneficial to the population.

Not a slight on anyone here, but you guys do realize that "Itsnowingcorns" is 14, right?

You're not going to change his mind--and I think it's pretty pointless to even try.

I'll be going camping this weekend, and you better believe that while I'm in the middle of the pine-forest I'll be taking a few walks and checking things out. If I happen to see something I like, it'll be coming home with me for breeding purposes--and I see nothing wrong with that.


Itsnowingcorns, you've tripped my economics thought process--I know I know, but I'm an econ major and I've just got to respond to this.

You say there's an overflow of corns in the US? That would indicate that suppy is greater than demand, and therefore no breeder would get away with charging upwards of $1000 for specific morphs.

If there was THAT big of an overflow, people would have to give them away--and I dont see that happening.

[kathylove]

I didn't stumble upon it until just now. Guess I have to put in my 2 cents worth - well maybe more like $20 worth, lol!

Personally, I only want wc in my collection for new bloodlines or new mutations. I only have 1 wc now - he has a little white patch on his neck. I do plan to catch some wc from the locale of the original bloodreds to see if they have the ability to deepen the red on our cb line.

That said, lots of posters made some good points, pro and con. I like to try to think about it from a logical / biological standpoint rather than on an emotional level. Some thoughts I have to agree with from previous posts, such as: in my experience and observations, corns are not social enough or mentally equipped to really appreciate our concept of freedom, and probably prefer secure and well fed to free. Of course nobody can read their minds, but we can only guess based on observation, and as mentioned before, what is already known about brains and mental /emotional ability in humans or other higher animals.

In most areas where corns are commonly collected, they are found in artificially large numbers because of agricultural use of the environment. Corns, like rats and mice, seem to do unusually well in those semi developed areas. They are actually quite plentiful in some of the more densely inhabited areas of the Florida Keys - we saw them under paper plates and trash right in the weedy area next to the road! So collecting pressure is unlikely to be a threat to most populations, although there are still areas where they are protected for various reasons and can't be collected in.

Although wc can often adapt easily to captivity, I do think cb is a better choice for the average person. That is because a breeder familiar with their own bloodlines can often predict behavior, possible health problems, or hardiness, and try to match the right snake with the right owner, much like good purebred cat and dog breeders might do.

BUT - there is one reason nobody has mentioned why a wc can at times be preferable. I have heard this discussion among some of the "old timers" numerous times the last few years. In recent years, the cb market, with its morphs and "investments" (more in boas and pythons, but corns to some extent too) has changed the way many young people enter into the hobby. When I was a child, most newbies caught their first few reptiles in the wild, often learning much about the habits and environment it came from during the experience. We were amazed by its natural beauty, behavior, and the way it lived in its environment. Many times, kids would be allowed to keep it only for the summer, and have to release it where they found by fall. Then they might catch a new one next spring. It did foster a differnt kind of attitude. Now, many kids (or other new owners) only want to know how big the plastic box should be, and what is the hot new morph that will sell the best. I am certainly not against this - it is how I make my living, lol! But the disappearance of the "old ways" is sad, somehow. I am personally very happy to have a full palette of colors to "paint" my corns with, and I was never much of a hunter anyway. But I surely can't decry the person who goes out into their habitat, learns more about them there than most of us breeders will ever learn from plastic boxes, and keeps their small collection (not thousands for sale, I don't care much for that myself) for their own enjoyment. Of course, I am assuming that they did not have to break laws or destroy populations or habitat to collect them. And unless they happened to find them in their own backyard, I can almost guarantee that those who hunt only for their personal collection will spend more to catch them than they would have to just buy one at a show!

Sorry - I know it is almost a whole book, but it was a really long thread and very thought provoking.

[Joejr14]

I didn't stumble upon it until just now. Guess I have to put in my 2 cents worth - well maybe more like $20 worth, lol!

Personally, I only want wc in my collection for new bloodlines or new mutations. I only have 1 wc now - he has a little white patch on his neck. I do plan to catch some wc from the locale of the original bloodreds to see if they have the ability to deepen the red on our cb line.

That said, lots of posters made some good points, pro and con. I like to try to think about it from a logical / biological standpoint rather than on an emotional level. Some thoughts I have to agree with from previous posts, such as: in my experience and observations, corns are not social enough or mentally equipped to really appreciate our concept of freedom, and probably prefer secure and well fed to free. Of course nobody can read their minds, but we can only guess based on observation, and as mentioned before, what is already known about brains and mental /emotional ability in humans or other higher animals.

In most areas where corns are commonly collected, they are found in artificially large numbers because of agricultural use of the environment. Corns, like rats and mice, seem to do unusually well in those semi developed areas. They are actually quite plentiful in some of the more densely inhabited areas of the Florida Keys - we saw them under paper plates and trash right in the weedy area next to the road! So collecting pressure is unlikely to be a threat to most populations, although there are still areas where they are protected for various reasons and can't be collected in.

Although wc can often adapt easily to captivity, I do think cb is a better choice for the average person. That is because a breeder familiar with their own bloodlines can often predict behavior, possible health problems, or hardiness, and try to match the right snake with the right owner, much like good purebred cat and dog breeders might do.

BUT - there is one reason nobody has mentioned why a wc can at times be preferable. I have heard this discussion among some of the "old timers" numerous times the last few years. In recent years, the cb market, with its morphs and "investments" (more in boas and pythons, but corns to some extent too) has changed the way many young people enter into the hobby. When I was a child, most newbies caught their first few reptiles in the wild, often learning much about the habits and environment it came from during the experience. We were amazed by its natural beauty, behavior, and the way it lived in its environment. Many times, kids would be allowed to keep it only for the summer, and have to release it where they found by fall. Then they might catch a new one next spring. It did foster a differnt kind of attitude. Now, many kids (or other new owners) only want to know how big the plastic box should be, and what is the hot new morph that will sell the best. I am certainly not against this - it is how I make my living, lol! But the disappearance of the "old ways" is sad, somehow. I am personally very happy to have a full palette of colors to "paint" my corns with, and I was never much of a hunter anyway. But I surely can't decry the person who goes out into their habitat, learns more about them there than most of us breeders will ever learn from plastic boxes, and keeps their small collection (not thousands for sale, I don't care much for that myself) for their own enjoyment. Of course, I am assuming that they did not have to break laws or destroy populations or habitat to collect them. And unless they happened to find them in their own backyard, I can almost guarantee that those who hunt only for their personal collection will spend more to catch them than they would have to just buy one at a show!

Sorry - I know it is almost a whole book, but it was a really long thread and very thought provoking.


Always good to see your input on these threads, Kathy, whether it be one sentence or a big book :)

[Itsnowingcorns]

Not a slight on anyone here, but you guys do realize that "Itsnowingcorns" is 14, right?

You're not going to change his mind--and I think it's pretty pointless to even try.

Sorry but what does this have to do with anything.....?
Also 'he' is a she ;)

Edit: Also it was not me who said the US had an overflow.

[TrpnBils]

Sorry but what does this have to do with anything.....?
Also 'he' is a she ;)

Edit: Also it was not me who said the US had an overflow.

I agree... I don't think age has much to do with anything here. If you take a look at her other posts, she goes at things with more maturity than most others her age on this forum, so give her credit for that at least...

[Hurley]

Or even others twice her age or more for that matter.

Whether or not I agree with their position, I respect the effort to produce well thought-out, well-written postings. I had begun to wonder if the school systems stopped teaching punctuation, grammar, and spelling. :D

As to my opinion on the WC frontier, I think my ideals probably align the most with Kathy's thoughts. I've never taken a corn out of the wild (don't live in the area, so it's not even a choice), but I do feel that occasional new blood for the gene pool doesn't hurt anything, especially with a goal (such as producing deeper darker bloodreds). I don't condone raping the land of all corndom, but as was said before, the education gained from going out herping far exceeds the loss of a corn or two from the wild population, especially if some are released back in its place.

[TrpnBils]

Whether or not I agree with their position, I respect the effort to produce well thought-out, well-written postings. I had begun to wonder if the school systems stopped teaching punctuation, grammar, and spelling. :D
Haha, yeah but remember she's in the UK too. I'm pretty sure that they have stopped teaching it over here. :laugh:

[Itsnowingcorns]

Haha, yeah but remember she's in the UK too. I'm pretty sure that they have stopped teaching it over here. :laugh:

LOL, when you've all finished discussing me, I'd like to know what being in the UK has to do with it too...

[princess]

Snowing, just take it as a compliment that you can construct an arguement and spell competently to boot at your age! And BTW, I'm not being patronising here. When you look at the atrocious spelling and grammar from many members of the forum in their teens who use the excuse that they're just 'a kid' and that's why they can't spell...they really don't have any excuse other than laziness.

I might risk adding my opinion on this subject and risk offending 50% of the people onthis forum now.

I've read and thoroughly enjoyed this lively debate and would like to ad that I'm FOR collecting a small, controlled number of individual animals to improve current captive bloodlines but I'm AGAINST the mass collection of any animal from the wild for financial gain to the collector.

If a number of interesting individuals (such as the Yellow Okeetee) are collected and bred in captivity in order to introduce a new morph and some new blood into the CB market with some of the resulting offspring being released to allow for the wild propagation of the type, then that's fine by me...but...the mass collection of snakes that are then sold to petshops is a no-no in my book.

My 2 cents!!!!

[princess]

An 18 year old just posted this atrocity :

'do al corn snakes tern there eyes blue when in shead mode'

Unbelievable

Do all corn snakes turn their eyes blue when in shed mode

On top of that there was no capital at the beginning and no '?' at the end.

...and they're 18 :headbang:

[Itsnowingcorns]

Thanks for all the compliments....... But stringing together a sentence isn't exactly difficult, LOL. ;)

[CAV]

You'd be surprised.......... ;)

[Joejr14]

Like I said, it wasn't a slight on her in the least.

I just wanted to point out two things with that post. A) She's 14, and B) She's probably never had the chance to go outside and collect snakes, especially corns.

When you add those two together, especially the last one, you can understand why her point is what it is regarding taking snakes from the wild and putting them into captivity.

The age issue has nothing to do with being able to spell correctly, but god knows some people need some serious help with being able to type words out and spell them correctly, I was just using that for a combo of the argument about never catching a corn in the wild, perhaps even a snake for that matter.

Whole point is, there's nothing wrong with taking a few corns from the wild to strengten your bloodlines. When you've got mass collections--that's a different story, but I just dont picture that happening with corns especially since there's so many corns available as it is---WC corns just arent going to fetch any decent amount of money unless there's something bizarre about them.

[princess]

But we'll just catch them, put them in a bucket, take a few photos and then let them go where we found them. In the west of Denmark in April-May, you can't go for a 30 min walk in a scrubby area without falling over a handful of them.
The friend who's taking me has studdied in Florida and had some brilliant field herping days there...we have nothing like that kind of variety in Scandinavia. I'm from Australia and miss being able to go off into the bush and see the animals...on the downside, my horse was terrified of kangaroos and I have a cracked skull, chipped teeth and a broken finger as a legacy!

[Itsnowingcorns]

Well I can't have ever gone snake hunting because I live in the UK. Also I would be a complete hyocrite if I did..... Rather than just a minor scale hypocrite ;)

[CrazyCorn]

I would be a complete hypocrite if I did
No you wouldn't, as long as you left them there you would still be able to stand behind your morals of not collecting animals, viewing is one thing, taking is another. I completely agree with Kathy on this, I could have put into words any better myself. I spend 5+ hours in the field every week, mostly observation but I may collect a snake or two if I do not have one already, I would never collect for my own gain and there isn't much market anyways. I don't know who it was that said a herper spends alot more time in the field than it would really be worth to make money and I have to agree, going through the terrain in some ares and actually looking not just collecting for hours isn't really worth the small amount of money and problems you go through. Friday two weeks ago I was walking through the fields looking for good flipping areas to find some snake and I walked through a few spider webs, thinking nothing of it like I normally do just walking along and all the sudden I felt a sharp pain, I looked down and I had been bitten by an small spider species that I couldn't fully identify, I spent 2 days in the hospital and many more hours of pain do to this bite not to mention missing valuable school work for a few days, it definitely wasn't worth my time and money with that bite just to make a few bucks and I collect and go in the field only for pleasure.

[MegF.]

Just one other comment as far as benefits to the animal if wild caught. Many people have the same feelings about capturing hawks from the wild. Here in the U.S. many laws require that the hawks are captured from the wild and not purchased, at least while you're an apprentice. The fact is, that almost 90% of hawks in the wild, die before they reach breeding age. Many falconers return their hawks to the wild after they've reached breeding age, ensuring the further growth of the species. Hawks captured in the wild, "tamed" and then released, do just fine. It's actually beneficial to the species to be captured. Snakes are similar. They instinctively know how to hunt and hide. I am certainly against mass capture of wild species for the sake of profit, and I'm appalled by the continued "Rattlesnake Round-up" that goes on in Texas every year for that matter. But for someone to go out and gather a few wild specimens for strengthening their breed, or purely for pleasure, does not bother me at all. I would have given my right arm to have been able to keep some of the gopher snakes and such that I caught as a kid, but mom said dogs, cats, rats, mice, turtles, and lizards were enough! I'm proud to say that I have 3 direct descendents of w/c locality Okeetees. They will be bred to continue the pure line, and it would have been sad not to have their beauty around.

[StubbyUK]

I've been reading this one with interest and have a couple of comments I'd like to add...

Something that may affect the way we look at things over here in the UK (I apologise for the generalisation, other Brits please feel free to jump all over me for it) is the fact that we only have 3 snake species. None of them are common over the whole of the UK and all of them are protected by law. You are not allowed to collect them, you are not even technically supposed to move them. It probably seems like overkill, but that's because there are not many of them around. Seeing a snake in the wild to me would be a really big deal and the idea of there being so many around that they are easy to find and just take home with you, as some of you are able to do in the US, is pretty mind bending , lol.

Personally I'm not against managed collection of common species but its the 'controlled' aspect that makes me wary, how is it controlled?...laws are put in place, but they are not always followed and not always enforced, and how long until a 'common' species becomes less common?...Okay, for corn snakes this is less likely to happen any time soon if ever, but taking reptiles in general (and across the globe, not just the US) there must be species out there that are being threatened by over collection for the pet trade...

Its all a matter of control and reason. Taking in the circumstances of the species, changes in population and habitat range, and following laws that are put into place. They are there for the protection of the animals we love and admire and its up to us to respect that.

Okay, that was long and rambling from possibly the world's most infrequent poster. I hope it made some sense....

StubbyUK

[Chip]

"Oh and releasing CB into the wild IS an intersting idea, though nobody will try it I'm sure." -Itssnowingcorns

Didn't I say from my first post that I do this? :crazy02:

And Stubby, word has it that the 13 owners of the Okeetee Hunt Club are going to be the last to see it a wooded area full of quail. When their children inherit the property, it will almost certainly be developed. No more Okeetee, possibly in our lifetimes. There will still be lots of corns down there, but that is a LOT of habitiat lost. While there still is a ton of them, and habitat to spare, I say catch them and keep pure lines!

[arimus]

WC corn's do not need to be taken in large numbers these days however if we wish to avoid some of the problems which have cropped up in 'normal' pets (cats/dogs) due to close inbreeding etc then the addition of WC blood to the CB gene pool can only, IMHO, be a good thing providing we do not take more corns than nature can afford to lose (remember in the wild the hatchling survival rate isn't exactly good :) )

[El Jefe]

The only good snake is a dead snake.

Well, at least that is the opinion of MANY South Carolinians in my neck of the woods. I have seen people run over snakes on purpose! So, is taking a snake that is crossing the road really all that bad?

I am for collecting WC snakes. However, I think it should ONLY be done for breeding reasons NOT commercial Catch and Sell. Ironically, I do not currently own a WC corn. I do have F1 (and this year will give me f2) from WC but I do not own a WC corn. The adults I've had in the past have been given to friends to help them spice up their blood. Not everyone can go out and catch a corn. Ha ha you guys in CA!
Then again...I can't catch a cal king. :(

Mostly, though, I end up helping them cross the road or go back under the tin they came from and take the pictures with me.

[Chip]

If corns even CAN be "taken in large numbers," a lot of us would pay to learn how! Then I could cherry pick and be done with it! Seriously, it takes a lot of work; I'm talking hundreds of herping hours, to create a colony of unrelated corns. If you could drift net for them, I could see the backlash I get from folks on these forums. But I've spent a whole weekend in prime weather, turning every log, peeling bark, ripping thru stumps, only to find twenty small scarlet kings, three eastern kings, seven copperheads, a cottonmouth, and the only corn was dead in the road.
Granted, sometimes you might see three driving down a road on a cool night leaving your girlfriend's grandmother's house. But mass collection? That's funny stuff.

[El Jefe]

Seriously, it takes a lot of work; I'm talking hundreds of herping hours, to create a colony of unrelated corns.

I agree.

It is a hard job to collect them.

I still do not think that one should immediately sell every animal they catch just because they can. I LOVE the hobbiest's collecting and breeding. I just am not too fond of the money guys. In my opinion, the same people that catch a snake on the road and sell it are the same people that put them on cedar bedding or buy the 'cheap' adult ball python and think it is really going to eat.

And I'm not really getting onto corn collectors either. I don't like the commercial collectors. You know, the guys that pick up EVERY snake and try to sell it at some flea market somewhere. You know, the water snakes and ringnecks for 5 bucks. :cry:

[Santa]

I am glad to see that my fellow Carolina herpers have a some common sense.
:santa:

P.S. Hey Elrojo, next you go collecting Okeetees, can I tag along? I will hold the sack!

[Itsnowingcorns]

"Oh and releasing CB into the wild IS an intersting idea, though nobody will try it I'm sure." -Itssnowingcorns

Didn't I say from my first post that I do this?

Yes, but your first post was way after I posted that.

[KJUN]

Yes or no is too simple of answers. Every corn we own is descended from wild collected snakes. Period. You say it is wrong, but if you say a wild one that was a NEW morph crossing the road, would it be wrong to collect it?

How about all the researchers who only got interested in herps because of the snakes they collected as a CHILD and kept in captivity for years? I don't think snakes are just living stamps - their ecology is important, too.......and you learn more about that from wild ones!

...but habitat-destroying methods of wholesale collecting to produce more normals that are already surplus in captivity is hard to defend, too.

Yes or no is too black-or-white to be an viable answer!

[SkyChimp]

I have caught, kept short term, and returned to the wild dozens of snakes over the years. I only have 3 permanent snakes as pets, though. Right now, I have 2 captive bred and 1 wild caught.

I have a captive bred Eastern King that has a Virginia blood-line bred by a breeder licensed to do so in Virginia. I have a captive bred Corn Snake whose parents were wild caught Corns from western Virginia (also bred and sold in compliance with state law). And I have a wild caught Eastern King I collected in Virginia.

I'm not against the taking of wild snakes - in extreme moderation. But I see no need for taking dozens of them. My state allows the taking and possession (for personal use only) of 5 of any non-protect species of snake. I can take and keep 5 king, 5 corns, 5 milks, and so on. What I can't do is capture them and sell them, breed them and sell the offspring without a permit, or give them away.

What I am against is someone coming into my state, taking wild snakes to use in their commercial breeding operations in another state. It happens a lot. Virginia's snakes belong to the citizens of Virginia, not out-of-state breeders. They belong to those state citizens that capture them within the law. The don't exist for the benefit of people that want to make a buck off them, or who don't contribute $$$ to the agencies in charge of conservation.

By the way, anyone that does collect snakes from the wild and goes posting their exploits willy-nilly all over the internet ought to consider that many snake web-sites are monitored by state wildlife law enforcement agencies who may come a-knockin' on your door if they suspect you are breaking the law.

[Emanon]

WOW... someone went on an archaeological expedition to find this thread!!!

Oh look... King TUT!!!







































:crazy02:

[Joolz68]

:grin01: ----------------------------------

[TandJ]

Die thread.... DIEEEE!

Regards.. Tim of T and J

[EllasLlama]

Ack! Where's the "Depends on the Situation/Maybe" button?

I'm going to have to agree with previous posts. It entirely depends on the situation.

For me, who only has one corn snake and am not planning at all in the future to really get into breeding, I would probably say no just because I would feel a lot more comfortable with a captive bred snake.

For someone who does a lot of breeding, I would say yes just to keep new bloodlines and variety within the captive bred population.

It also greatly depends on the laws of the area, also mentioned above. Most of those laws were put in place to protect local populations and to ensure that a breeding population is able to be maintained in the wild. So, if someone were capturing wild snakes and selling them, that would greatly reduce the wild populations and would then be bad.

Tough question.