scales?

[snakemom47]

My 5 year old snake appears to be losing scales? He is in a 55 gal aquarium by himself which has a warm end and a cool end and averages about 78 degrees on a normal day and the humidity ranges between 40 and 50%. The other week my apartment heat went all out of whack though and shot my apartment up to 88-90 degrees for about a week. I opened the windows in his room but I think it may have still been to warm. He doesnt have any signs of mites or discolorations. Since that week his skin has gotten rough and hes appeared to be having clear bits of almost shed like material curl up here and there on his back. Now he seems to be dropping scales. Ive been soaking him in temperate water for ~7 minutes a night for the last few nights which has softened him back up again but Im concerned about the loss of what appear to be scales. If noone has any ideas, I will take him to a vet but I had hoped to avoid having to take him out in the cold and deal with a vet that may do more harm than good if it was something that I can take care of myself. Any ideas?

[oreo1700]

if you see that his skin is getting better, keep doing what ur doing. and if he's eatting then hes probably fine. otherwise it sounds like hes got nothing to complain about.

[Alias47]

My suggestion is to continue soaking regularly...if you do not see an improvement within another week...I would take it to the vet...

Sounds like a dehydration problem...I have a milksnake that has been completely dried out since oct. and I soak her for an hour every night. I believe her eyes may have dried out now as well...so she will be blind...and she has made no recovery...but is VERY active and still eats...and she is definitely alert...mouth looks good....I took her to the vet and she had a clean bill of health OTHER than this extremely severe dehydration. If she wasn't so active and alert I would have euthanized her by now...every night the thought crosses my mind...but she moves and flicks her tongue and the whole nine yards...hopefully she will come around...but I haven't seen any improvement yet.

[snakemom47]

ouch. at least she still seems happy. i met a rainbow boa once that had dried out to the point of having its eyes look wrinkled and dry. but that one was lucky and after rebuilding the tank to have half of it be a pool his eyes finally returned to normal. no idea if he could see but he acted like it. i hope yours gets better!

[Spirit]

Can you not place a cool hide in the viv? Like a hot water bottle, only with cold water... An area where he can go to cool down? I don't know, maybe that's a bad idea... I definitely agree to keep soaking him though.

Actually... what about olive oil or some sort of shed aid? Would that help, do you think?

I'm so sorry... I really have no useful imformation here. :(

[snakemom47]

I keep his waterbowl on the cool side of the tank and its large enough for him to sit in if he wanted to.

[Spirit]

BTW, since no one replied to my question in this thread, I asked around about olive oil. After about 15 minutes of being made fun of (jr. high school style), I learned that it is good for mites (or was it ticks?), NOT shedding or rehydrating the skin (thanks JM).

So don't use olive oil. It would think it might even be counter productive.

[Alias47]

Sorry for no reply...I wouldn't use any type of oil or even petroleum jelly (Vaseline) to rehydrate...

I have tried UNFLAVORED PEDIALYTE...this was on the unresponsive snake I mentioned above...so I don't know how well it truly works (since NOTHING works for this individual snake!!)...have heard very good things about it, though.

Personally I just use purified water...I have a whole house purifier...so I use my tap water...would probably recommend distilled over tap for most people. And be sure the temps are good...I have gotten VERY good at guessing (I have been doing this every night for almost 3 months)...it should feel cool to the touch...I would temp it to be in the ballpark...even 80 F water feels very cool to the human touch.

[Spirit]

Personally I just use purified water...I have a whole house purifier...so I use my tap water...would probably recommend distilled over tap for most people. And be sure the temps are good...I have gotten VERY good at guessing (I have been doing this every night for almost 3 months)...it should feel cool to the touch...I would temp it to be in the ballpark...even 80 F water feels very cool to the human touch.

You've been bathing your snake every night for 3 months? Wouldn't this (if anything) cause dry scales?

[Alias47]

If you read my post above...it states the condition...

This snake would be dead without daily bathing...she has been to the vet repeatedly...has a clean bill of health...OTHER than being completely dehydrated...

COMPLETELY...to the point of not being able to move properly, until I bathe her.
She still is VERY active...tongue flicking...mouth looks good inside...she still is strong...and she still eats without regurging...and if it wasn't for her activity and awareness I would have euthanized her by now...she can't be very comfortable.
I put drops on her eyes every night and morning...she developed scute rot from the soaking early on...but this has been treated and is almost completely healed...I even inject 1cc of sterile saline into her prey items to attempt to introduce more fluids into her system. She drinks for me daily...and a lot...just never rehydrates...

I am at a loss for what else to do...other than follow my herp vets recommendation.

I have tried taking her off of baths for a couple of days here and there...and she almost gets BRITTLE...don't want her to die by dehyration.
I can think of much more humane ways to euthanize her.

[Spirit]

Oh wow... The reason I asked is because I (myself) take a lot of baths, but in the winter especially, if I take too many my skin gets VERY dry. I do know that olive oil (as well as jojoba, grapeseed, flax, almond, apricot, safflower, etc) is very healthy for OUR skin/hair but I didn't know how it would be for a snakes scales (and since I have heard of olive oil being used on snakes, I didn't know if it would help with this particular condition).

I'm so sorry to hear about your snake Derek. :(

[Hurley]

For her to uncontrollably loose fluids that way, despite drinking, she is losing it abnormally somewhere. Any sign where? Does she excrete an abnormal amount of urates/watery fluid? Are her scales and skin normal? Two big things I'd think of would be an inability of her kidneys to concentrate/resorb water so she loses fluid...but you should see increased fluid excretion tinted with urates. Otherwise I worry about her skin and if she has a disorder that makes her lose water through her skin abnormally/excessively.


How old is she, by the way? Did she just start the problem suddenly?

[E. g. guttata]

At this point Derek, I'm wondering if her body can even retain water. It does sound like if it could, she would be a completely healthy snake, but I'm wondering if euthinizing her would really be best. Is there possibly something genetic that could be keeping her from being able to stay hydrated? I don't know if I could handle taking care of a snake that doesn't look to be recovering after three months. It almost sounds like a lost cause to me. But as long as you're willing to keep the process up, keep us posted on how she's doing.

[Alias47]

For her to uncontrollably loose fluids that way, despite drinking, she is losing it abnormally somewhere. Any sign where? Does she excrete an abnormal amount of urates/watery fluid? Are her scales and skin normal? Two big things I'd think of would be an inability of her kidneys to concentrate/resorb water so she loses fluid...but you should see increased fluid excretion tinted with urates. Otherwise I worry about her skin and if she has a disorder that makes her lose water through her skin abnormally/excessively.


How old is she, by the way? Did she just start the problem suddenly?

She is an '04...hatched around June, I believe. The problem started VERY suddenly...she was always in perfect health...one day she had a VERY abnormal shed...it was coming off in VERY small pieces...almost like flaking rather than shedding...this was the beginning...after the flaking was "done" her scales were very dry...and her whole body dries up overnight...she still moves but is very stiff...both eyes are completely opaque now...one has been the whole time through...the other went opaque about a month ago...I still use the drops...almost like she has retained eyecaps...or is unable to shed properly...I am guessing at this point, due to the dehydration, she is probably blind. Her skins is definitely no where near normal. The best description I can give you is she looks like skin with the tips of scales...the scales are very unhealthy...I will email you a picture on Monday...I will be out of the office until then...and don't want to post a milksnake picture here.

Hard to tell where she would be loosing fluid...her mouth is in good shape...from what I can tell...and she usually discharges (urates/bm) while bathing...I have NOT seen any normal urates...but I assume they would dissolve in the water. I would have to assume it is her skin that is causing these problems...like it just can't retain the moisture...it definitely takes a lot in when she is soaking.

She is actually my sons snake...another reason she hasn't been euthanized...but I have prepared him for the fact that it may happen...every time I think it...she surprises me, though...I almost decided to just do it and get it over with this morning...and I went into the room where her tank is and she was out cruising around the tank...well as best she can anyhow.
So active...the only thing that keeps me going with her.

I have had a fecal done...and it came back negative for anything.
And whatever it is...it definitely isn't contagious...she is housed in a divided tank with a Thayer's Kingsnake in the other side...and the king is still completely healthy...they were both purchased at the same time from the same place.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated...

[Bluebeard]

Sorry for no reply...I wouldn't use any type of oil or even petroleum jelly (Vaseline) to rehydrate...


I actuly had a vet recomend Vaseline for when Annabella riped her skin on some odd looking scales around her neck, presumably scar tissue, to rehydrate them.
??

[Spirit]

I actuly had a vet recomend Vaseline for when Annabella riped her skin on some odd looking scales around her neck, presumably scar tissue, to rehydrate them.
??

I can sort of understand using oils or vasoline for use as a moisturizer (for lack of a better word) but the problem here is dehydration, not dry skin. I don't know ANYTHING about this, but Hurley makes complete sense when she says it's likely kidney related... in which case no "topical aid" would help (I obviously misunderstood the original post when I asked about olive oil and it's uses on snakes).

If it's as bad as it sounds though, and if the snake is suffering, unfortunatly there's only really 1 solution. :(

[Tracee]

[beauty queen mode] Vaseline doesn't add moisture or rehydrate but it does act as a 'seal' locking it in [/beauty queen mode]

This thread is so sad, wishing you both the best of luck :(
Derek I cannot believe your snake is still active and eating, she must be a real fighter. Hang in there..

[snakemom47]

im a bad judge of temperature so i have an aquarium thermometer that i toss into the bath water to make sure i get it right :)

[Alias47]

I actuly had a vet recomend Vaseline for when Annabella riped her skin on some odd looking scales around her neck, presumably scar tissue, to rehydrate them.
??

I use triple antibiotic (petrolatum based) on the scabs on my milks scutes from the soaking...or on an injury...but not to rehydrate.

[Alias47]

Derek I cannot believe your snake is still active and eating, she must be a real fighter. Hang in there..

She amazes me...I was gone for the weekend..so no soak on Saturday...
I came home yesterday...and there she is...all dried out...and trying to move around the enclosure...flicking her tongue...and acting like a normal snake...
She has gotten a TON of personality from all the holding (and annoyingly so...not like it is casual handling...I have to check her mouth...and check her belly and vent...and all the stuff that would make ANY of my other snakes CRAZY) and she just deals with it...she even comes out when I come into the room now...like she just wants to get it over with....LOL

Snakemom47: It took many weeks of checking water temps with an Infrared Thermometer before I was comfortable doing it by hand.

[princess]

I'm no vet and I've never had this problem before with my snakes but in humans when something to do with bodily funtions goes suddenly out of whack it can often be pituitary related (I know this from first hand experience with my own retarded pituitary gland and the dramas I have along with it) It sounds to me like the gland responsible for the production of the oily fluid that helps the old skin come away during a shed could be not functioning properly. If suplimenting her prey with an essential fatty acid like flaxseed oil (by injecting it into the thawed mouse) hasn't been tried, you could give that a go. I'm a strong believer in 'you are what you eat' and if there's something amiss in her food, you could supliment....just an idea...could be way off.

Could it be that her water tastes funny?? The container you use for her water could be leeching a funny smell into the water. Could you try bottled or distilled water in a plain glazed ceramic container??

[Alias47]

Could it be that her water tastes funny?? The container you use for her water could be leeching a funny smell into the water. Could you try bottled or distilled water in a plain glazed ceramic container??

She has two water dishes (since she is dehydrated and can't see...I wanted to be sure she could easily find them)...one IS a glazed ceramic...the other is a clear plastic deli container...both are wiped and refilled daily...and cleaned with Chlorhexadine once a week...

She readily drinks out of the soaking container (clear deli as well)...
I have a feeling it is internal...or that she cannot shed properly...I may try the flaxseed oil...not a bad recommendation...and can't hurt in a small dose.
Thanks,
Derek

[E. g. guttata]

I really hope everything works out alright. This post makes me sad. I can't even immagine the frustrations you must be going through. Let us know how it turns out.

[Bluebeard]

just to be clear i never used the vaseline, i thought it odd myself aswell.

I honestly don't know how you can keep doing that? its so sad, i would have given up by now.

[Alias47]

Well...I thought last night she was through...

I lifted up her hide...and she didn't flinch...was sitting with her mouth part way open...(can't see the eyes...so can't tell from them)...she was completely stiff...I thought she was done...
I noticed a slight bit of movement...so I ran and got her water dish filled...put her in it...and BUSINESS as USUAL...cruising...drinking...full movement...tongue flicking...
She didn't eat last night...and hasn't for a couple of weeks...
I checked her this afternoon...and she is rough...VERY dry...more so than usual in a 14 hour period
I think Hurley may be right...kidney failure of some sort...
She is getting worse on a day to day basis...
I will keep trying...but I don't think she will last the rest of the week.
I should euthanize her...I know...but I have been holding out hope this long...what is a few more days?

[E. g. guttata]

I know how it feels to hold out until they die. I wanted to do that with a hatchling of mine last year. He came out prematurely and I got him to eat once in 4 months. I kept putting it off a week at a time until he ate, but one night I left him in a deli cup with a pink over night to see if he would eat, and the next morning I lift the lid to a stiff snake. I thought he died overnight, but then he actually peeled himself off the plastic. It sounded like velcro. I couldn't stand it any longer, I finally euthinized him. It hurt really badly to do it too, because he was my sweetest snake. :cry: Poor little Miracle.

[Alias47]

Last night she was looking ROUGH...BUT...she was out..flicking her tongue and checking out her tank when I came into the room...so I haven't given up hope yet...and after soaking her last night...one of her eyes became slightly transparent again...so she may not be blind after all...which gives me hope.
Looks like she might possibly be getting ready to attempt a shed again...hopefully she will...it would help.

[Alias47]

Just to update...
Her condition since I brought her up in this thread has quite suddenly taken a turn for the worse.
She is losing strength quickly...
I soaked her last night...first thing this morning I thought she was dead...I decided to put her in water...and she drank...and livened up...put her in the tank (in front of the hide opening) and she managed to get into her hide...but she has almost zero strength...when I found her this morning...her mouth was open and she was completely unresponsive until she had been in the water for a few seconds.

I decided not to euthanize her this morning...if she is still alive when I get home...I will put her out of her misery.
I will be gone overnight this weekend...and I know she is not going to survive.
I hate to do it...I am literally in tears right now thinking about it...but it must be done.
She has GOT to be suffering now...although I don't have much hope that she will be alive when I get back home.

I believe Hurley may have been right...I would guess it is some sort of systemic failure...probably kidney related...judging by the regression of her health and the time frame in which it took place.

[KatieL]

Ohhhh, I'm sorry Derek...I've been following this thread and I've really been pulling for you two. Please, let us know how she is when you get home. :-/

[Spirit]

I know there's nothing I can say here, but I just wanted to say that I'm glad to hear that you're going to leave her to rest. It's hard to watch a pet suffer, but sometimes harder to put them down even though you know it has to be done. You did everything you could, so if nothing else, have solice in that. Still though, I'm sorry to hear that it's come to this. It definitely sounds (imo) kidney related and seemingly there's nothing more you can do. :(

[snakemom47]

:( I had really hoped your snake would pull through. Its good though that youre not letting her suffer

[howiet4702]

I also have been following this thread. I'm so sorry Derek....

[Alias47]

It's done...

Was hard to do...especially after working with her daily for over 3 months.

I almost didn't do it...but she was so worn out after soaking last night...and trying to eat...that she was almost completely limp. She even had a hard time turning over when placed on her back.

Now I have to tell my stepson...it was his snake...he even paid half for it.
He lives with his dad...and I haven't had a chance to tell him yet.

[babbaloo99]

I am sorry this ended this way. But kudos to you for all of your hard work and daily effort to try and help the little guy. :(

[E. g. guttata]

Derek, I've just gotten to read the thread again. I'm sorry for your loss. I was actually hoping that her condition would get better. You were so dedicated to trying to help make her better, that I thought she would really improve. Again, I'm sorry for your loss. You did your best.

[Alias47]

Sometimes even our best isn't enough...

[rayray]

I am soo sorry for you alias. But you did all you could.

[KatieL]

Oh, I'm really sorry Derek! You know you did everything you could though, at least she isn't suffering anymore... I'm so sorry for your loss.

[stefmc24]

the only thing i can say is....at least she was in wonderful hands for her last days. i know it's hard, but take comfort in knowing you did all you could do. she obviously had the best chance at life because she was with someone who truly cared and did all they could.

i'm sorry for your loss.

[Hurley]

Know that you made the right decision, Derek. I have no doubt about that. She was suffering, something was very wrong with her (be it her kidneys, skin, or other) and no one could have done more or tried harder for her.

Sorry to hear, Derek. My sympathies to you and your stepson.

[Alias47]

Thank you all very much...

Your sympathy is very appreciated...

It was a very hard thing to do...hope I don't have to make that decision too often...culling freshly hatched animals would be MUCH easier than having had to do this with an animal that I worked so HARD to recondition for so long.

[coyote]

Has there been any suspicion mentioned about some type of genetic disorder where her skin is unable to use, manufacture or retain a vital component like fat, cholesterol, or something required by the skin for suppelness and waterproofing. Her condition may not be directly caused by hydration problems. There just might be a herp vet or herp Phd out there that is researching such a condition or would be fascinated and helpful. This is my logic, if water loosens her up, but is not changing or correcting the problem, than it is only treating the symptoms. The problem might be due to a disorder within the skin itself. Especially with the systems that protect the skin and keep it supple. She may actually be missing a layer of tissue that makes up the skin. This could be a completely new disorder or disease.

My memory, as I read your description, jumps to psittacine beak and feather disease. Why can't inbred snakes, over time, develop skin disorders of their own. Why don't you try some type of safe, nontoxic fat or heavy duty moisturizer. Crisco, Aloe vera gel, sunburn moisturizer, Aveeno, something like this. Then wrap her in a soft piece of sheet for a while to let the moisturizer work before its rubbed off. Pick something organic?, Natural, free of undesierables like alcohol, perfumes, colorings, preservatives, medicine, other suspect chemicals.

I am taking some heady liberties encouraging you to do things to your snake. I just have a gut instinct about this-even though I haven't witnesses it for myself- that it is not a hydration disorder per se. All the fluids she ingests can very possibly be being lost simply through the skin itself. Damaged skin can not hold water in. And your description of the skin itself and the abnormal scales just sparks something in my collective memory.

Did your vet ever suggest doing a skin biopsy? A culture? This sounds invasive, maybe even radical. But IMO, they are reasonable steps to take that might provide some valuable information and treatment ideas. Maybe she can be supplemented with a hormone, cortisone?, levothyroxine? that could prove effective treatment and reverse the symptoms and damage somewhat. I don't know. I feel compelled to offer any idea I have to contirbute.

I hope you don't just give up on her yet, but decide to try some of the ideas I have suggested. Also, I would be very pleased and grateful to be kept up to date via this forum.

If you give up and decide not to go on, consider letting someone else try, especially with regard to the diagnostic work. I would be willing to do that. Just call me a bleeding heart sucker.


Thanks for allowing me to offer my Two Cents.
May God Bless.

[coyote]

You are to be commended for having been so commited to her care and for the efforts and persistence you invested in the hope.

[Alias47]

Thanks...

I almost kept her to allow someone to research her...but...I did not.
She was in perfect health for several months previous to the onslaught of this condition...which in itself lasted several months.
My guess (and it is only a guess) is that she had a kidney failure of some sort.
Whatever it was is definitely NOT contagious. She actually shared a divided 20g L tank with a Thayeri kingsnake female...they were purchased at the same time, from the same dealer...so were kept in the divided tank from day one. They were both kept apart from the rest of my collection (and the Thayeri still is today...just to be sure, but she will move into a divided 40 with her future mate soon)..but the thayeri shows absolutely no signs of problems...and never has. I last spoke with the breeder the 1st of January...they related that they have never had this problem with any of their milks...or any of their snakes for that matter...they also gave me some advice for rehydrating...but like Coyote said, seems like we were addressing the symptoms and not the problem...
Personally, I believe I did everything I could for her.
The problem was definitely systemic, be it the kidneys or the skin...and for all purposes was most likely incurable regardless.