Size and regurging

[Creeper]

Well - we bumped Creeper up from pinkies to fuzzies and she has regurged two out of three. I guess we'll go back to pinkies. But I was wondering if snakes should be a certain length or width before they can successfully digest a fuzzy. She downs them quickly, probably less than 10 minutes all together, but something is not right if she can't keep them down. Creeper is about 14 inches long now and about a 1/2 inch wide. Any suggestions or ideas?

[jazzgeek]

Well - we bumped Creeper up from pinkies to fuzzies and she has regurged two out of three. I guess we'll go back to pinkies.

By "two out of three", do you mean two of the PAST THREE three feedings, or two of three fuzzies in ONE feeding??

If it's the former, back off on feedings for at least ten days. If it's the latter, back off on the quantity.

Also, refer to this thread. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=131958#post131958)

regards,
jazz

[MegF.]

First off, how often are you trying to feed? If your snake has regurged, you should be waiting a minimum of 10 days before trying again. 3 regurges in a row is serious. Second: You should be going to a size smaller than the one that was regurged when you do go to feed again. A 14" snake should probably still be on pinkies. Third: How are your tank temps? Do you have a warm side of 82-86 degrees? Do you have an Under tank heater? You might try putting some grapefruit seed extract in the water as well. 2-3 drops per 8 oz. of water. Change the water daily so that you avoid any bacterial buildup. Are you feeding on substrate, or in a seperate container. If you're feeding in a seperate container, you may want to remove the substrate in the viv, put in paper towel (makes it easier to see if the poop looks normal too) and feed in the viv to cut down on stress. Make sure you don't handle your snake right now at all to help avoid stress. You shouldn't handle them for 48 hours or so after feeding anyway, but until the regurge problem is resolved, I'd leave the snake alone. Good luck with this and keep us updated.

[Standard]

An idea for when you do try fuzzies again: vary the meal sizes at first. If a fuzzy is a large meal for him, that's taxing on the digestive system. The next meal, go back to pinks so that his body can take it easy, and acclimate to the larger feedings.

[Creeper]

Thanks guys.

Here are the answers to your questions.

We feed Creeper one fuzzy each Saturday in her viv on a paper towel. The viv temp stays around 82-85 degrees via UTH and humidity at around 45%. Her water is changed 3-4 times per week and each time the water bowl is scalded clean with soapy water and refilled with cold filtered water. After feeding, we leave her completely alone until she poops, except now she is regurging instead of pooping. She has regurged 2 times in the last 3-1/2 weeks.

With that being said, do you think the problem is feeding her fuzzies instead of pinkies, or could there be a bigger issue?

[MegF.]

Definitely wait 10 days before trying again. Feed a small pinky only, and put a few cuts in the back to make it easier to digest. In between, do not handle your snake at all. I would stay with a small pinky for the next 2 to 3 feedings until you're sure that there is no more regurge, and then go to a larger pinky. Try that for a few feedings and then go back up to the smallest fuzzy you can find. I would put cuts in the back of all of the mice I feed (I'm assuming you feed frozen/thawed). If you don't feed f/t, your snake could have picked up something from the mice you fed.

[Creeper]

Well - Creeper is still regurging. We put her back on pinkies and she has regurged a medium and a small one. She must be getting some nutrition because she's growing like a weed, her color is great, and she is very active. Her regurges look weird, kinda mummified. Is that what most regurges look like? Anybody know why she can't digest completely? Should I be overly concerned given the fact that she shows absolutely no signs of stress or illness?

[MegF.]

Usually regurges are somewhat slimy, black and stinky. Is she getting enough water? Have you been waiting 10 days before trying to feed again, and you should be going to the smallest pinky to start. If the regurges continue, you should probably get a vet to check her out as this many times can be fatal. The fact that she's still active and seems in good health is a plus.

[Anazazia]

When Blaine (my little guy) regurged it looked mummified too. A little paler, and kind of smoothed over, right? He'd been hiding the week, then regurged. Then, he did the same thing, his colors are brighter, he came out every night, drank all the time, is was weird, I would have expected the opposite. Anyway, maybe you should change where you get your mice from. I changed to a different source, and he's kept one meal down, and is more active than he ever was with the old mice. So maybe, that's an idea. Also, if you put vitamin suplements on the mice, even if it gets regurged (which I hope it doesn't) the supplements are on the surface of the mouse, so they should get absorbed almost immediatly, allowing for some nutrition, even if it's not much.

[Creeper]

Creeper drinks alot, so she gets plenty of fresh water. And yes, the regurges are kinda smoothed over mummy looking stinky things. Really weird. Hadn't thought of trying a different pinkie source. She will only eat live ones...guess I'll try dunking one in liquid vitamins when the next 10th day rolls around. That should be Sunday. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for a snake to ralph. It has to come up a long, long way. I sure hope getting pinkies from a different source will help. Thanks for the tips.

[E. g. guttata]

Creeper drinks alot, so she gets plenty of fresh water. And yes, the regurges are kinda smoothed over mummy looking stinky things. Really weird. Hadn't thought of trying a different pinkie source. She will only eat live ones...guess I'll try dunking one in liquid vitamins when the next 10th day rolls around. That should be Sunday. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for a snake to ralph. It has to come up a long, long way. I sure hope getting pinkies from a different source will help. Thanks for the tips.

At this oint, I am counting at least 5 regurges. I wish I came accross this thread earlier. I <b><i>HIGHLY</b></i> suggest that you get 4-6 frozen pinks. I would then for the next 4-6 feeding, break the heads off the pinks before thawing them. Feed only the heads (on a weekly basis) until you have no more heads to offer. All going well, (s)he'll hold down all the heads. IF and ONLY IF this is the case, then thaw out each of the bodies to feed, again on a weekly basis. Hopefully by the time you are out of frozen mice, your snake will have not regurged again. The fact that she's drinking so much water is a result of the chronic regurgitations. Make sure there is a hide on both the warm and cool side of the tank. Try to offer a small basin (bottle cap or similar) of water in each of the hides. I hope that your kid pulls through. I would NOT suggest trying to feed whole pinkies anymore at this point. Good luck and keep me posted.




DON'T READ THIS PART UNLESS YOU WANT THE BRUTALLY HONEST TRUTH!!!!
The chances of your little one making it right now are slim to none. 5 regurges is FAR too many to be healthy. Each time your snake regurges, it loses stomach acid and needs to replenish them, but can only do so by digesting a meal, or at least by not regurging. After just 2 regurges, the chances of recovery are only about 50%. They only get much worse (very quickly) afterwards.

[Anazazia]

While I'm not disagreing by anymeans, I was just wondering if you had any idea why the snake was so active and growing even though it was regurging? Is this common? Also- Creeper, do you have any plants in the viv that could be making the snake sick?

[E. g. guttata]

While I'm not disagreing by anymeans, I was just wondering if you had any idea why the snake was so active and growing even though it was regurging? Is this common? Also- Creeper, do you have any plants in the viv that could be making the snake sick?

The snake is growing because she is getting a little bit of nutrition from all her meals. She'll have started to digest mice and absorb some nutrition. I would suspect that she's active because the water bowl is not right outside her hide. At least she IS moving around to get water, and IS growing some, but she needs to be put on a feeding regimine where she only needs to handle meals smaller than pinks (thus, getting the frozen pinks and breaking off the heads).

[Anazazia]

That would make some sense as for the activity. I just know that I was confused too, because my guy was climbing on things and trying to get out in all sorts of ways after he regurged, so I was wondering if there was a biological reason, like they were lighter or something.

[Creeper]

Thank you. We will try the heads and report back. Yes, she does have live plants in the viv. Should I take them out, and if so, why?

[Anazazia]

You don't have to remove them, just make sure their not toxic. Here are two websites that list plants harmful to animals:

This one is specifically for reptiles:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=17&cat=1913&articleid=1612

This one is general for animals:
http://www.aspca.org/toxicplants/M01947.htm

There are a few others out there, none are complete, but the point is there could be one making you snake sick, and you didn't even realize it.

Otherwise I recomend keeping the live plants in the viv if only because they retain moisture to help with the humidity.

[Adamscorn]

I was just wondering if you had any idea why the snake was so active and growing even though it was regurging?

I am by no means and expert and may get struck down in flames with this reply :flames: but could she be active because she is hungry? Our snake went through a spell of being very active, out all the time, we thought it was great. Until we realised that she was in fact hunting for food. Since we started feeding her more we hardly ever see her except when we get her out and handle her! Not good for us but great for her!!!

Your snake obviously wants the food as she eats it, the problem is with digestion. Can't help you with that as I have no experience. Good luck, I hope she makes it. :)

[E. g. guttata]

I am by no means and expert and may get struck down in flames with this reply :flames: but could she be active because she is hungry? Our snake went through a spell of being very active, out all the time, we thought it was great. Until we realised that she was in fact hunting for food. Since we started feeding her more we hardly ever see her except when we get her out and handle her! Not good for us but great for her!!!

Your snake obviously wants the food as she eats it, the problem is with digestion. Can't help you with that as I have no experience. Good luck, I hope she makes it. :)

This could be a very real possibility, though, with the huge drop in her stomac acids, I'm not sure this is the case. If she suddenly just stops being active for no apparent reason though, I would worry. The fact that she's active could also be because she feels safe in her viv with all the plants. She could also be roaming around a lot because one of her hides is too warm, and she's looking for other places to hide. All of these are possible, and it could be any combination of any or all of these. so yeah, ther are several possible reasons for all the activity, but I think it's most likely the search for water at this point, unless she normally is this active, at which point I'd probably say that she's comfortable in the viv with all the plants.

[Creeper]

Creeper does drink quite a bit of water and we change it several times a week. She is still active and adventurous, color is good, and eyes are clear. We gave her a super tiny pinkie (just couldn't bring myself to cut off the head) and she has kept it down. :) She had her monthly viv cleaning and lots of fresh aspen put down on her floor. She seems quite content. Guess we'll stick to the smallest pinkies available and see how it goes.

[JTGoff69]

Good luck! :) How long has she kept this one down?

[Creeper]

It's been four days ago now and no signs of any problems. I guess we were feeding her pinkies that were too big. We'll stick to the tiny ones for now and see how it goes.

[Vegas]

I'm glad to hear that she kept the last one down! My Ash is about the size of Creeper, he's been on one pinky every 4th or 5th day but lately I've noticed he crams them down quicker then I can say cheese, so last night I fed him 2 pinkys for the first time, he ate them really fast. Hopefully he didn't just eat with his eyes. I was planning on bumping my little one up to fuzzys but after this thread I'm not sure, maybe I should wait a bit with that and just feed him the largest pinkys I can find. Got 4 mediumsized left now and if he's ok with the doublefeed I'll give him the remaining ones double too.

[JTGoff69]

Glad to hear that Creeper!

Vegas, you'd be surprised at what they can handle. LOL But, I've always done it the way you are doing now. I bump them up to 2 of whatever size I'm feeding at the time if they are looking for more. I do that for a few feedings (or more depending on how many I have left). And then I go to the next size up. However, you will notice that the size of fuzzies varies greatly from source to source. I ordered fuzzies for my '04s after they had been on 2 lg pinks for awhile, and when they arrived they were HUGE! More like the size of a hopper. There was no way they could eat them. So.....I ordered "peach fuzzies". Bigger than lg pinkies, but not so much so that they couldn't eat them without risking a regurge. www.rodentpro.com has a comparison pic next to each size they sell. That's where I ordered my peach fuzzies from. If you do order from them, make a note on your payment that you want them vacuum packed in smaller packs. It will save you money from losing them to freezer burn. :wavey:

[Vegas]

Thx for the reply JTGoff69! problem with ordering mice is that I live in sweden, I usually order from the closest petstore that house reptiles. VERY expensive but that's my only option except from buying from private breeders. Which is an option too but I need to find some good breeder relatively close. I think Ash should be on either large pinkys or those peach fuzzys. I think the ones I feed him now are small-medium pinkys. I called the petshop 2 days ago and he told me atm he only has small pinks and large fuzzys but he'll get a rodentdelivery at monday so I'll call back then.
Oh and sorry for hi-jacking your thread Creeper. :(

[JTGoff69]

Thx for the reply JTGoff69! problem with ordering mice is that I live in sweden,
Oh and sorry for hi-jacking your thread Creeper. :(

Note to self: Look at member's location before replying. :dunce:

You might look into breeding your own if you could swing it.

I apologize too Creeper, keep us updated, I want to hear that she keeps her next meal down as well. :)

[Vegas]

Hehe yeah, well so far I only have one snake so until/if I get more I will keep buying them.
Yeah, keep us posted Creeper!

[princess]

You might look into breeding your own if you could swing it.


I've given up trying to convince my bf that I want to breed my own mice again...he values the balcony too much...Maybe I'll try it out again on him next year.. sorry I'm hyjacking too!