'Designer Corns'

[Neil]

I've just been on a site (whose name will be kept a secret) that says it's working to produce 'designer' corns. Is it just me or are these people really horrid and a bit carried away. I mean, I'm all for experimenting with different colour morphs in order to find new, weird and wonderful phases but I think It's going too far and becoming very inhumane calling them 'designer'; they're animals, not clothes!!
Just needed to get that off my chest. Thanks.
Neil

[GinnyO]

I agree, Neil. Designer sounds too merchandising and materialistic. I've seen that site and winced when I read the word "designer". Snakes are a living, natural part of our world!
- Ginny

[Neil]

Glad to hear you feel the same way.
Neil

[Tenacious_Ash]

i agree, it is absolutely awful people can call them designer, when they are living creatures. it shows how caring the people are toward the snakes, i bet they keep them in terrible conditions too! :mad: :mad:

[CornsnakeKeeper]

I think it's just used to show that they aren't your average run of the mill corns, though I do understand the points you all make. But from what I've seen/heard, those people do have some awesome animals.

[HomeBreeder]

The first time I heard the term designer applied to herps was in relation to Leopard Geckos. I guess I had pretty much the same reaction. (eww - what an aweful word to describe an animal!)

Why though? It's just a word. We can get so caught up in semantics that sometimes we forget it's nothing more than an attempt to communicate (the use of language.)

I don't know what site you are referring to, but I'll postulate that persons who base their entire reality around linguistics might have had a bad childhood. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to intone anything deragatory about the persons in this thread, but the "thrust" of it (the thread) gives me the very same impression as the people who love to proclaim that they make their business descisions based upon the grammatical finesse of the other party.

To me that just seems shamefully shortsighted. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you really think you can have succesfull breeding programs if you treat your livestock like animals? (Yes, pun intended...) But seriously - unhappy herps make aweful breeders, from everything I've heard. Oh wait, did the term "livestock" throw you off? Then you're probably among those persons who would never buy from me because I'm a high school dropout; trust me - I can do without that type of business. If you can't see beyond a few mispelled words to see that I care more about my animals than selling them then it's just as likely that your pompous arse would neglect them because you apparently know more than everyone else?

Honestly, I'm not flinging stones at anyone whose posted in this thread, but I think you owe it to yourself to consider that a word is a word is a word. Words only have power when we give it to them. I think basing an opinion on someone because the word "designer" is in their website is pretty short-sighted, frankly.

^Curtis

[GinnyO]

Ouch, I think I've been hit with a stone! You're assuming a lot Curtis since you don't know me. I winced at the word designer because it seems to be directed at people who may not be normally interested in snakes. People who might have enough money and time on their hands to get involved in a "fad" or what's cool at the moment. To show off to their friends, and then go on to the next fad. Snakes live a long time, so you have to be committed to doing what's right for your pet in the long run. Your right that it's just a word, but words do have power and they influence people, unfortunately. I agree we can't judge how these people care for their snakes because of their website. But I never have liked the word designer (it's usually used to make something seem better than just ordinary) even on clothes.
By the way I couldn't care less about spelling or if you did or did not graduate from school (I have my own horror stories about formal education) but spelling just happens to be easy for me, and I feel you are assuming other things about me just because of the way I type or talk. Who is judging who?
Just felt like I needed to defend myself a bit since you know me as well as I know you. Okay, can we be friends now? :confused: - Ginny

[HomeBreeder]

I'm sorry you felt attacked, GinnyO.

I basically agree with you and Neil - I think the connotations of the word designer could be done without; where I take exception is simply with the the notion that one word really means so much as to garner such harsh posts:


Neil said:
Is it just me or are these people really horrid and a bit carried away?

You said:
...sounds too merchandising and materialistic. I've seen that site and winced...

Maybe I'm reading too much into your posts but it sounds like you'd tar and feather these people if you had the chance! Are you aware that LOTS of people use the term designer simply to assert that they have "special" or "un-ordinary" genes in their herps? I seriously doubt the website in question was the first place to apply the term designer to herps; they probably don't deserve to be the focus of your wrath :)

Again, I basically agree with you - the industry could do without the term designer applied in in any way to herps. I'm sorry you feel I'm on the attack - I'm just trying to provide a little defense for the nameless website.

I don't know you, and never meant to imply I did. I was generalizing that I'd seen similar posts insofar as wild conclusions being drawn from insignificant "evidence" (such as improper grammer or other linguistic shortfalls).... Maybe my point is that from where I'm standing it all looks like the same flavor of gestapo-linguistics short-circuiting logic and common sense.

I'm not assuming anything about you. I'm generalizing. I read a post that while I felt it had an interesting point perhaps it went a little overboard. I responded with what was on my mind which was a responce not only to the thread, to you, and to Neil (et. al.) but perhaps as well was meant a reminder to all of us to lighten up and not be so ready to take everything at face value.

These people (whoever they are) didn't start the trend that has your panties in a knot... here are hundreds of herp pages with the word designer in them:

google results (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%2Bdesigner+gecko+snake)

^Curtis

[Neil]

First of all, don't you ever assume that someone's had a bad childhood just because they have an opinion of their own. Actually, I have had a bad childhood so I take that remark personally.
All I meant to say is that it just sounds a bit like a factory, churning out thousands of animals, I never said that they are souless, uncaring bastards or anything.
Neil

And i NEVER said it was just one site.

[GinnyO]

I think if there was a "wrath" contest you'd win, Curtis. I stand by my opinion. - Ginny

[Neil]

OK, I've settled down a bit now and would like to apologise to HomeBreeder. You make sense when you say that it's only a word and that we shouldn't get carried away with it. I just think there a better words to use.
Let's not bear a grudge, eh?
Neil

[HomeBreeder]

I'm speechless.

I'm going to go crawl back under my rock now. Have a nice life, Ginny.

^Curtis

[HomeBreeder]

wait I do have something to say....

First of all, don't you ever assume that someone's had a bad childhood just because they have an opinion of their own.

Oh for christs' sake.... does this REALLY have to get personal? How many times, and how many ways do I have to say that I'm voicing MY OPINION and GENRALIZING? I had simply stated:

I don't know what site you are referring to, but I'll postulate that persons who base their entire reality around linguistics might have had a bad childhood.

I admit communication isn't my forte, but in the above remark I was aiming for a touch of levity. If you seriously took that comment as a personal attack then you probably ought to stop readling my posts because I GUARANTEE we will have more such misunderstandings in the future.

For another thing,

And i NEVER said it was just one site.

Well then it's my turn to be the language nazi! OK Professor Tolkein... re-read this statement from your first post:

I've just been on a site (whose name will be kept a secret)

I don't know where you learned to write English, but they seem to have a different book than they had in my schools; where I come from "a" infers singularity. If you are talking in plurals the statement should be something more like, "I've just been on an other site (who's name will be kept secret)".

Since I'm actually trying to be condececnding this time I'll go on to add that you posted your opinion on a public forum. I responded with my own opinion. The two of you need to either keep your opinions to yourselves or be ready to have people disagree with you now and then. That is after all THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF A MESSAGE BOARD.

I'm not one to bear a grudge. Neil, you apologized, so if you can forgive me for my above comments I can certainly forgive you for misunderstanding me too.

Ginny, similar words came off your fingers, but then you turned right around and ignored not only the fact that I had apologized, but in fact you re-posted for the single express purpose of busting my balls. You talk about my wrath, but I think there is an undeniable pot-kettle-black relationship here.

By all means "stand by your opinion" - it was never my desire to change it, so what should I care. If however, you can't cope with people having a somewhat different opinion from your own then perhaps a message board isn't the best place to share them. "Can we be friends now?" indeed.

Please refer to the above advice.... If you can't handle my opinions you are best served to ignore them because I'm not going anywhere. If you insist on taking my comments as a personal assault I have no way to stop you. If you start firing at me though don't expect me to roll over; I might not be too smart, but I have more pride than I know what to do with sometimes and therefore I can't guarantee that I'll keep my mouth shut.

Sigh....
^Curtis

[Jimmy C.]

Oh man,Oh man, I just love this forum!!!!!
Jimmy C.

[SilverTongue]

Ok hehe i love debates hehe

Ok my opinion about the term designer. Ok When I see the word designer I admit the first thing that came to mind was a new secquence type of handbag LoL. But that is where it was left. (and I been to site you are refering to). I agree I dont thing that term should be used as a lable for any animal, but it is no different thant saying that Rich has the best looking snakes and color morphs then anyone else. After all we are still talking about snakes. Wouldnt they all be wonderful to have? Or is their appearence that important to you? If so then it is no different then saying Rich has the best designer Morphs around! See they basically meant the same thing. If you question the quality of care that these breeders are giving to the herps then ask people who may have perchest said animals. Ask them what was the condition of they herps when they recived them. Ask them how their buisiness experience was. And many questions like this. If you do not know anyone who may have bought anything from these breeders then that could be explanation enough that these breeders might not have good care for their animals. But then you are just asking people in the limited group you know. Perhaps purches an animal from them. See how things go. If you have a bad experence with them or if the animal is in bad condition not reselting from the travel alone then you have every rite to shout it to the world how horrible they are. Because you have experienced it first hand. I hope I am being clear.

As for where they education aspect came into this discussion came in I am not really sure. I might have just missread things. But I didnt see eanything about anyone being smarter ot not. You are one of the most clearly and detailed writers I have seen Curtis, so lighten up about yourself. I love reading your posts they are very clear and to the point but not dry.

Cant we all just get along!? :)

BTW I never proof read because I cant spell, but then again I have see people who are perfict spellers who can only type with one finger LoL

[Jimmy C.]

I really enjoyed reading the post on this thread.
I am always amaised at how hard it is for people to agree to disagree.
Thank God we all have different opinions because the world be very dull if we didnt.
I guess as we read replies to our post, we tend to add tone, and thats when we become a little p-ssed.
I know that I do it all the time.
Maybe we need to step back and realise that the other person is only giving their opinion and that if we take a minute we may see things another way. Or we may totally disagree and thats ok.

We are all here for the same purpose to have healthy snakes.

Jimmy C.

[GinnyO]

Yes, well put. I just thought my wrath contest comment was mildly humorous, but you can't know how your comments will be taken. I honestly had no "wrath" from beginning to end. I just don't care for the word "designer" for the reasons I mentioned earlier. My daughter has informed me that my comment sounded mean, but after adjusting my "knotted panties", I felt it was pretty innocent! LOL Here's to healthy snakes, good arguments, and agreeing to disagree. I'll shut up now. - Ginny

[Jimmy C.]

Way to go Ginny!!;)
Jimmy C.

[Rainey]

This was a pleasure to read!

Thanks Y'all!

[Kat]

Ya know, I'm not 100% sure what people mean when they say 'designer' geckos or 'designer' corns. The best I can tell is that they mean 'you can pick out the one you want by looking'...

Someone tell me if that's inaccurate, but inherant connotations or no, that's my best guess as to what the word means in the context of the reptile industry.

That having been said, I'm also not entirely sure what constitutes a 'Volcano' corn, though photos I've seen suggest they're F1's from bloodred X normals...

And I have yet to find someone willing and able to provide a definition for the so-called Tallahasee phase of normal cornsnake...

[Neil]

Some people may say that it's only words but words have meanings and the meaning of 'designer' is, well, I can't actually explain it but it's not good.

Actually, I wish I'd never started this thread- it's just got me into trouble. Lets pretend I didn't say anything.

[SilverTongue]

How are you introuble???
#1 I love to debate/argue (ask my husband hehehe)
#2 I am not angered one ounce.
#3 It is a debate and we all love to share our opinions. That is what makes us good help for eacher. We are not all atoma-tons marching to a single drum to the edge of a clift like lemmings!

Do dont be upset that you brought up a VERY good point. Just understand w/o conflict life would be pretty boring :)

[Axe]

Regardless of what it may or may not infer (as to the value of the animal, or the love and affection such an animal may or may not receive from its breeder).. the term "designer" isn't exactly very useful, and will probably piss people off if it reaches a widespread use.

"So hey, what kind of corns you got?"
"Oh, they're designers"
"Huh? Hypomelanistic? Anerythristic? Amelanistic?"
"Umm.. I dunno.. pet shop just had 'em labelled as 'designer corns'".

Personally though, I feel it's just a marketing ploy to make normally non-snake people (uneducated n00bs) think they're getting something special. Well, they are, but one phase is no more special than another.

Regardless of species, any animal we take under our care requires the exact same respect, love and attention it deserves - absolute.

[Colleen]

I bet whem they put "designer " on their site they were thinking "now that will set us apart"!!LOL If they could see this thread! :p

I have at times gotten replies to posts that when I first read them really got me mad, but before I answer I always wait and have my husband read it. I can't tell you how many times his view of what the person meant was totally different then mine.:) On the other hand there is a difference between expressing your opinion and attacking someone elses. The trick is properly expressing yourself thru this media. It shows just how much we rely on the tone of voice, ect.

Heck as if you all hadn't noticed I can't live without my spell check!!!

Colleen:D

[HomeBreeder]

Yes, judicious use of :)'s usually helps remind the reader not to take me too seriously - at least that's my hope.

^Curtis

[kenster]

wow what and interesting thread we have here. So of course I had to add my two cents worth. And here is my opinion:
If you add "designer" to anything I think all it does is add price. For instance shoes at K-mart $30 designer shoes from Nike $150. Maybe some people add that to make their animals sound better and worth more money than the "average run of the mill" snake. of course if you ask me none of my snakes are average run of the mill, but everyone has their own opinion. When I see a site that says "designer" I think nice looking snakes that will cost more than I have. But like I said that is my own opinion...

[Missymonkey]

and the sad this is, people will buy those nike shoes for the brand name, or calvin kliens, or michael jordan perfume, ect... and people will buy those corns because they are designer many will buy them without researching the market to see if they are getting a fair price,... but whats wrong with that, it's just a name, and an easy way to make some money off relatively superfishal people

[Rich Z]

So maybe I missed a comment that I will be duplicating here.

But my take on the 'designer' label is a bit different from what most people appear to be taking as an interpretation. When I hear that term applied to live animals, I think in relation to a person (a designer) having a hand in how he/she breeds the animals in order to promote or create a specific 'design', be it color or pattern. Certainly many of the cultivars I am now working on were conscious efforts at getting them to look the way they now do, hence I would be their 'designer', and they would be 'Designer Corns'. They are the way they are by design, not accident or hapstance.

So is this any different from someone whom would design a handbag or a line of clothing? I think not. It's just that our medium is living animals. But the act of designing is no less a challenge, and perhaps more so because of the unknown variables and influences genetics throws our way.

Simply put, any cultivar that is the result of a combination of genes that has not occurred, and likely will not occur, in a wild population, or a cultivar that is the result of selective breeding to enhance a particular look, could be safely said to be a 'designer corn'. And I don't see where anyone should feel embarrassed at the term or bothered about it in the context it is being applied.

IMHO, of course.

[Axe]

To most of the people on this forum, whilst maybe relatively new to corns, yet not necessarily new to keeping herps... that probably makes a lot of sense Rich.

It certainly does to me.

But, aimed toward the uneducated, I tend to agree that it gives the impression that the animal as "something special" over another given animal (of the same species). You walk into one pet store that's got a striped-anerythristic labelled up as "corn snake", and another one down the road who's got a fairly identical snake labelled up as "designer corn snake" at twice the price...

Ok, so yeah, it is a marketing ploy. Just like "designer" clothing. but like Missmonkey said... all those idiots who are just bothered about a brand name, or things being "designer" are the type of people who'll fall for it, make the pet store an extra few $$. The pet store knows anybody who falls for the "designer" trick can be told, and talked into buying, anything.

Those are the kinds of people who buy iguanas because they "look cool" then leave 'em living their life out in a 20g tank, and wonder why it dies after a couple of years of being fed on crickets and monkey chow.

From a reputable breeder, "designer" can imply, as you said, that it has been selectively bred over several generations to achieve a desired appearance. Unfortunately, if a pet store thinks they can use a word like that somewhere, they'll do it, and abuse it.

As well as above, it devalues the "designer" label previously applied by you as a breeder Rich.

Just look at Leopard Geckos... very few serious breeders have them labelled up as "designers". They list the exact morph(s). Only people I've seen mark them up as "designers" any more is the tables at shows where the leos are simply being sold for somebody else and they know absolutely nothing about 'em, having 50 hatchlings together in a 10g with a sand substrate, and no dry or moist hide - ok, not essential for a 2 day show, but still stresses 'em out. I saw a LOT of half-tails and nipped toes in those kinds of tanks at Daytona over the weekend.

I just think to those who've seen it applied to animals before, as well as just personal opinion of the word, it really has the opposite of the intended effect and degrades an animal if not used very carefully (and by the right people).

[Neil]

But if you were talking about clothes or something then 'designer' clothes would SEEM better to have. Designer clothes are something special, better than clothes from somewhere like BHS or a second-hand shop. When you apply this to animals it just doesn't seem right that some should be considered as better than the others when all are equal. It's fine when you're talking about clothes but shouldn't, in my opinion, be applied to animals.
I'll shut up now.

[pipatic]

dont stop ....dont stop:D :D

[kris (UK)]

i dont think the term "designer corns", meant to be read as something bad. I took the phrase as corns which are of a newish morph (eg: not normal, amel, anery, snow)

KRIS

[Matt L]

Well , I must say this thread has alot to talk about. My mother has a colledge degree and was an english teacher and speech therapy teacher for years. To this day, she will correct my bad english. I am a high school graduate with a some colledge, but I don't think a piece of paper stating so makes me a better person. I think thats enough about education. Now on to Rich! I must say I agree with Rich's post on the "word" designer, however I have never seen him use it to describe any of his animals. I own quite a few SERPENCO snakes and I don't think I would hold the respect for Rich if I saw him using the name designer to descibe one of his snakes. Yes HE may be the designer, however I think I would rather see a new color morph he designed named after him than to call it designer. I personally think the word "designer " should be left for blue jeans!
Matt L.