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Why it is important to feed your snakes pre-killed prey

Blaqwraith
04-14-2005, 05:10 PM
There's a couple reasons why I feel people need to be educated on why it's not a good idea to feed live prey to your snakes...see the links below (especially beginner snake owners). They will save your snake from future pain, and perhaps even prevent it's death.

Here's is a picture of a Ball python that was attacked by a mouse that was left over night in it's tank. (WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC PICTURE)
http://proexotics.com/graphics/ball_python_live_prey_1.jpg
and here's the article following many other useful tips. http://proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#38

other links..
http://www.kingsnake.com/articles/PreKilledPrey.html
http://www.anapsid.org/ratbites.html

FlaStangBabe
04-14-2005, 05:38 PM
There's a couple reasons why I feel people need to be educated on why it's not a good idea to feed live prey to your snakes...see the links below (especially beginner snake owners). They will save your snake from future pain, and perhaps even prevent it's death.


my buddy feeds his snakes (ball python i think) live rats ( i think, or mice) and just last week it was attacked. the poor thing has cuts all over its back. ( didnt look at your link to the pic tho, cant stand animals in pain)

DAND
04-14-2005, 06:57 PM
That ball wasn't attacked, it was eaten. Some people just don't have a clue.

pcar
04-14-2005, 07:13 PM
that picture was horrible. I hope that the owners were fined because of animal cruelty.

Glad this thread has been started. have had a lot of questions about feeding live vs. F/T on here and else where.

Thanks

cka
04-14-2005, 07:37 PM
Thre is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding live prey; many of the bigger breeders do, it's simply a matter of convenience when you are dealing with hundreds, or thousands, of snakes. Also some animals will flat out refuse pre-killed food items. It's when an animal is left unattended that mishaps occur. A good rule of thumb would be if your snake does not eat a live prey item within five minutes, it probably wont and should not be left in the animals cage. When you are dealing with one or two, or a few, frozen/pre-killed is certainly the safer bet.

howiet4702
04-14-2005, 07:52 PM
That picture was horrible! I for one feed all my animals F/T. But years ago, I had Ball Pythons and some other rather large reptiles that only ate live. I however, NEVER, left them unattended or I at least slightly stunned the mice/rats. This is reality and I hope the owner learned something from this!!

mrweaw
04-14-2005, 07:54 PM
I have never had anything but a hatchling refuse F/T but I do feed live on occation. When I do though, I do it one at a time and do not take my eye off of them until the mouse or rat is dead. It is the only way to do it if you are going to feed live at all. I, of course, don't worry about feeding hatchkings live prey because a pinky has a rating of 0 on the danger scale.

It is horrible that some people are so rushed and busy that they allow their animals to be eaten alive like that...IMHO, people like that would be better off without animals.

MegF.
04-14-2005, 08:18 PM
You might want to read the faq sheet that went with that. It talks about the supposed finicky eater and how to get a switch to f/t. It evens talks about injuries occuring even if the snake eats immediately. It's a risk I wouldn't take. I don't think Rich or Kathy or any of the larger breeders here feed live. It takes too much time to watch over thousands of snakes when feeding. Throw a f/t in there and go. Check later and see if it was eaten. Much easier.

wildernessey
04-14-2005, 08:30 PM
"a matter of convenience" ???? I find it WAY more convenient to keep my prey dead and stored in my freezer .

cka
04-14-2005, 08:39 PM
"a matter of convenience" ???? I find it WAY more convenient to keep my prey dead and stored in my freezer .

I'm glad you find that way convenient, not everyone does...For many with multiple animals keeping a mouse or rat colony is more convenient than buying frozen feeders...

Serpwidgets
04-14-2005, 09:13 PM
For the record: some of the bigger breeders do feed live.

"a matter of convenience" ???? I find it WAY more convenient to keep my prey dead and stored in my freezer .I bet you never open the freezer to find that your dead and frozen prey has multiplied itself... It's also not convenient to "feed" f/t mice to a snake that absolutely refuses to eat them.

I think there's a world of difference between:

1-tossing a live hopper, weanling, or adult rodent in a snake's tank and walking away, and

B-feeding live pinkies or fuzzies, or stunned mice.

Taceas
04-14-2005, 10:08 PM
I agree with CKA & Serp.

I feed live/prekilled for the convenience factor. For me, its easier to walk into my garage and get the appropriately sized mice and feed than it is to pick through a bag of frozen mice for the sizes I need, wait for them to thaw, dry them off, and then offer them (which they may be refused and then tossed).

With live, if someone doesn't eat the live mouse, I put it back to grow some more for the next time. No waste. My snakes that eat prekilled adult mice very very rarely refuse, so still no waste. If someone refuses, its offered to my glutton of a snow corn to clean up.

However, I only offer live pinks and fuzzies, everything else that has teeth and the arsenal to injure a snake is stunned or pre-killed before offering. And as someone else said, pinks and fuzzies are a 0 on the danger scale.

So to me, its just how mature and careful someone is when feeding, rather than some idiots out there who toss 'n leave. There is a safer way to every method.

Chip
04-14-2005, 10:53 PM
You might want to read the faq sheet that went with that. It talks about the supposed finicky eater and how to get a switch to f/t. It evens talks about injuries occuring even if the snake eats immediately. It's a risk I wouldn't take. I don't think Rich or Kathy or any of the larger breeders here feed live. It takes too much time to watch over thousands of snakes when feeding. Throw a f/t in there and go. Check later and see if it was eaten. Much easier.

I'm almost certain that Kathy does feed live, almost exclusively. She even made a reference to "exercise" as I recall. At any rate, I prekill anything that would be hard to catch with my hand if running. Mice aren't exactly snake maiming macines. Rats are a whole 'nother matter. A hungry corn is designed to dispatch either quickly! I'd just keep my eye on the rats if you use them for feeders! Should the snake not be hungry for any reason, my money is on the rat. Especially over a period of time with no food. Except that unmoving reptile. :cry:

PtDnsr
04-14-2005, 11:32 PM
Personally we feed f/t because it's easier (not to mention our landlord would shoot us if we started a mouse colony). For others feeding live or stunned/prekilled is easier. I don't necessarily think one is better than the other but I believe more accidents happen with live. To the people on this forum that have had snakes and know the dangers of feeding live and watch their snakes with live (aka not leaving unattended) live is fine. To the beginner that doesn't know better it could be deadly to their snake. I think it's more about educating people as to "proper" feeding procedure. While not everyone agrees on every little detail I think most people would agree not to leave a live prey item in with your snake (pinks and fuzzies excluded). I think it's a matter of personal preference and not something that the herp community will ever come to a consensus about. Just my thoughts :shrugs:

~Katie

cka
04-15-2005, 01:45 AM
Very nicely put, Katie :*)

Joejr14
04-15-2005, 04:05 AM
I'm almost certain that Kathy does feed live, almost exclusively. She even made a reference to "exercise" as I recall. At any rate, I prekill anything that would be hard to catch with my hand if running. Mice aren't exactly snake maiming macines. Rats are a whole 'nother matter. A hungry corn is designed to dispatch either quickly! I'd just keep my eye on the rats if you use them for feeders! Should the snake not be hungry for any reason, my money is on the rat. Especially over a period of time with no food. Except that unmoving reptile. :cry:

I do believe you're right about Kathy.

The two I recently got from her didnt quite seem like they knew what to do with a dead mouse---but throw a live fuzzy in there and all hell breaks loose.

I can tell you that Rich feeds primarily live----live pinks and fuzzies and f/k anything that can bite.

Gino at LWR where I've gotten most of my stuff also feeds live.

When you have thousands of animals waiting for thousands of mice to thaw, and then feeding them is just not feasible, especially when you're essentially feeding every day.

And, there is nothing wrong with feeding live when you're doing it smartly. This idiot up here with the picture that's been posted all over the place is a complete moron. First off, I dont think a mouse did that unless it was left in there with the BP for a day----I have a feeling someone left a rat in there with a BP.

If you're dumb enough to leave a live rat in with any snake, you deserve to get that, period.

I'm not going to get all in a huffy over this since I already did it elsewhere, but this stigma about feeding live is BS and it sucks.

cocoasumatran
04-15-2005, 05:05 AM
i feed frozen cos i only have one snake and i can't see the point in keeping a colony of mice to feed him... but in theory I can't see the problem with feeding live so long as they are supervised. After all there are no frozen mice out in the wild! People who think that an animal should not kill and eat another animal have been watching too much kids tv!!

E. g. guttata
04-15-2005, 11:24 AM
Here's is a picture of a Ball python that was attacked by a mouse that was left over night in it's tank. (WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC PICTURE)
http://proexotics.com/graphics/ball_python_live_prey_1.jpg
and here's the article following many other useful tips. http://proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#38

EVERY time I see that picture I get IRATE! People look at that and use it as the ONE AND ONLY reason not to feed live rodents. Then it's like trying to debate with a religious zelot on the reasons I don't think God exists. This kinda crap is more harmful than feeding live/pre-killed rodents. What are you going to say to the guy that has been keedping cornsnakes for a year and wants to feed live? A: "Don't feed live, this WILL happen to your snake." Now what do you say to the guy that has been keeping snakes for many years and has successfully been feeding live/pre-killed rodents to his snakes? A: "Don't do that, this WILL happen to your snakes."

Here's the real question: Instead of trying to scare people out of feeding live/pre-killed to their snakes, why not EDUCATE them on how to do it properly? A lot of you get mad at the people who have prejuduces against keeping snakes, because they say some pretty stupid things to scare people away, but then you turn around and tell the people in your own reptile community that feeding live/pre-killed rodents is evil because the snakes CAN get hurt. The simple fact is that this person was a MORON! Teach people the proper ways to feed live/pre-killed, DON'T try to scare them away.

BTW, I only feed f/t, but that is due to lack of space and income for a mouse colony. If I reasonably had the option of feeding live, I would. I don't see anything wrong with it. I am, however, a bit uncertain about doing so since I have fed f/t since I started keeping my snakes.[/rant]

Joejr14
04-15-2005, 11:46 AM
You're preachin' to the choir, Egg.

But, we're all evil for feeding live. :rolleyes:

kathylove
04-15-2005, 11:52 AM
I feed a lot of rat pups, but also mice. Many times I will thaw out a bunch of f/t, feed, then go back and give live to anything that refused f/t. If I have more f/t, that is what they get. But if I have an overload of live, that is what they get. A couple of years ago, the manager at a giant breeding facility (produces about 20,000 or more corns a year!) told me that when they switched to mostly live, they saw the incidence of egg binding go down (presumably due to increased exercise and muscle tone), although that was only an observation, not a scientific experiment.

The last time I remember a serious injury in my collection was in the mid '70s when I fed a mouse to a baby Burmese python and the mouse bit it badly on the lip. Anything since that time has been a minor scratch or bite that did not require treatment. But since there is a small, but real, possibility of injury, I usually reccomend beginners to start with f/t, unless they are feeding pinkies and fuzzies, or just having trouble gettng their snakes to eat it. There is always time for experimentation later, when experience will allow them to make an informed decision about what to feed, and how to do it.

The only problem I have with people getting so used to feeding f/t is that they sometimes think that every baby will automatically accept it without exception. Some customers have made no provision for the fact that some babies (even those that previously ate f/t) just insist on some live pinks in their new home before they will start eating the f/t. Especially when dealing with hatchlings, there should be a back up plan for those that are a little more picky than other babies.

Emanon
04-15-2005, 12:41 PM
I personally feed F/T due to the ease of keeping mousicles in the freezer being easier than housing, feeding, dealling with a colony.

On a sidenote I was watching my buddy feed his BP a rat the other day. We both watched, he armed with a pair of stout tweezers. As soon as the BP wrapped up the rat he rolled it over and grabbed the teeth of the rat with the tweezers, the rat was already making a bite for the snakes belly. It was almost instant. He was quick on the draw with the tweezers and it is a good thing.

I have fed live and I may rotate live and F/T (mostly f/t due to $$) after reading what Kathy has said.

Missie
04-15-2005, 12:48 PM
i was unable to open the link with the picture, i could only open the articles. could someone post another link for viewing, or possibly send it to my email: cradle_8@hotmail.com . this is something i'd really like to check out

MegF.
04-15-2005, 01:13 PM
My one snake constricts every f/t mouse that comes his way, so feeding live for excercise isn't really a problem. Most of them will constrict if I just hang on to the mouse and shake it a bit. As far as they're concerned, it's alive. On a side note, my one female likes to check out the f/t mouse thoroughly before eating. I think she would be put off the food if I teased her with it.
EGG: I don't think there's a problem with pre-killed obviously.....I personally don't care if anyone feeds live or f/t. I find it easier to get and keep frozen mice, the sizes are more consistent, and the quality is better. I also don't have to worry about injuries. I fed my amel live until he got to hopper size, so I don't really have a problem with that. All my new hatchlings are used to f/t, so that's what I feed them. I personally don't want to risk injury to my snake. Even with the some of the fuzzies, that are almost to hopper, I've seen my snake grab it from the rear as it tried to run. On an adult mouse, this would have certainly resulted in a bite, probably faster than I could help. I don't think it would be as risky if we were feeding live in large areas where the snake could manuever and such, but I feed them in a box, that limits their ability to move as much as they would say in the wild. I think it handicaps them a bit.