Potential problem feeder

[Arson]

I acquired 3 new cornsnakes from the Columbia show on 4/23. I tried feeding each of the new corns for the first time 5 days after I first acquired them. My miami, who seems to have a bit of an attitude, eagerly ate his first meal and passed it with no problem. My free corn (that had the mite issues) also fed with no problems. My ghost corn, however, seems to have no interest in mice among other odd issues.


When I first held her when looking at her she was a beauty. She moved around and seemed alert and free of pests. So, I bought her. After I brought her home I noticed her behavior seems a bit...subdued. As compared to my 3 other corns she's either very docile, or something may be wrong with her. The first time I held her she didn't resist at all. Her tail hung down and when I put her in my hand she just laid there. My first fears were that something was wrong with her because she didnt' seem to move much. After more observation and seeing her move she doesn't seem to have any lack of muscle strength or ability to be active. I've witnessed her on numerous occassions exploring her viv just as actively as my others. The more odd things about her though: She doesn't really coil up like the others. She will sometimes stretch out in her hides and lay her head in strange positions. She's very easy to handle and doesnt' seem to be uncomfortable or try to run off. She seems like just a very very calm snake. The problem is, I haven't been able to get her to eat. Now, very bad me, I didnt' ask the guy I bought her from what she had been eating. After thinking more about it she might have been fed live mice, which could be part of the issue: I feed f/t. I've tried to feed her 3 times prior, and today is her 4th.

The first day I tried I moved her to my normal feeding cage. She seemed more obsessed with exploring the container than eating her food. I left her for about 20 minutes and found her just laying in the corner. I moved the mouse closer, even wiggled it in front of her and she seemed to shy away. She did, just once, put her mouth around the head of the mouse, suddenly stopped, and then removed her mouth. I left her in there about an hour and she didn't eat. I waited 3 days and tried again. This time, I cut the head off the mouse. Left her an hour and a half. Nothing. The third time I moved her to her small deli cup so she'd have nothing else to pay attention to. I made sure her mouse was smaller in case the last was too big. Nothing.

Today I'm trying again. I'm using a rather small pinky, definitely her size, and placing her in the deli cup with the mouse and some small cuts. THe mouse was warmed a bit in hot water before I put it in there.

So, my question(s): Has anyone see behavior like this one in their own corns? The slow, or no movement most of the time and normal behavior some of the time? Could there perhaps be some problem? What other methods to feed should I try?

Thanks in advance.

[Joejr14]

The obvious suggestion is to try feeding a live pinky in a deli cup in the viv under the hide.

If that doesn't work, you'll have to try scenting.

There might be a problem, but picking that out is going to be impossible.

The problem might be feeding outside of the viv. Some of my hatchlings are weirdos about that, so I feed them inside their viv by putting a pinkie in a deli cup. If you want, you might try using newspaper for a substrate and placing a live pinkie inside the viv, and place a towel over it.

If the snake was fed strictly on live pinkies, any change in the frozen ones might make her refuse to eat. If the temps are off a bit, she might refuse. It might not smell right, so she might refuse.

I'd honestly try feeding a live pinkie inside the viv. If that doesn't work, consult an expert. :)

[Sisuitl]

Her behaviour sounds a lot like my 04 snow, Rosella. She's always been extra limp and lazy, laid back and sort of listless, doing everything you've described including laying stretched out with her head in weird positions. Never once shown fear to a human, Rosella is the one I always introduce people with a fear of snakes to since she's so mellow and pink. Sometimes I wonder if she doesn't have a neurological problem, but she's always been healthy with good muscle tone and active. Never had a problem with getting a feeding response, although when she eats it's a bit odd. Most of my corns strike at the prey, and snatch it back into their coils. I just hold a f/t pink out to her, she sniffs it, then she gingerly swallows it right from my fingertips. She never tags it or anything, but has never refused a meal.

Joe is right, possibly offering live to your girl might work if that's what she is used to. :shrugs: Hope this is helpful.

[peep_827]

All 4 of my snakes have VERY distinct personalities, which I find fascinating. I have 1 guy, my male ghost Orion, who is out of his hide a LOT. He'll just lay stretched out across his tub! He's very docile and actually seems to like attention. My ghost girl is jumpy as anything, a VERY nervous girl! My crimson alternates between being totally psycho when I handle her to being totally nice. My normal male is in his hide almost all the time, yet when I handle him he is the nicest snake ever. They are all just very different, so I don't think you should worry too much about your girl acting "weird".

The eating thing I can't help you with a lot, tho you've got some great advice on that. I've actually never had an out-right refusal, tho I have had to re-warm a couple of pinks for Orion. It seems he will only eat them if they are pretty warm, while the others don't seem to care. On the other hand, Petunia (the crimson) will go crazy looking for her mouse and slither right over it time after time before she finally locates it and gobbles it down! I have no idea why she can't seem to find it . . . but it's a good thing she doesn't mind if it's cold. LOL They are all different!

Good luck, keep us posted!!!

[Arson]

Thanks for the info, folks. I tried leaving her in her deli cup with a pink overnight and placed the actual deli cup in her viv. I woke up this morning and she's in the same position I left her in last night. Doesn't seem to have even touched the mouse. I really REALLY hate to go to feeding her live mice because that's not something I'm willing to sustain for the duration of her life. Hopefully if that works she'll one day switch to f/t or we could have a problem. Making a guess on my own part though based on her behavior my instinct tells me a live pink isn't going to do the trick...in which case I'm pretty stumped.

[A_Mc]

Have you considered trying to 'tease-feed' her? I have used Kathy Love's method (in her book) with much success to 'jump-start' problem feeders....It has worked for me about 80% of the time....If you need instructions on how to do it, let me know.
Good Luck!!

[Arson]

If you mean holding her in one hand while wiggling the prey in the other..yes, tried that.

[larryg]

I had a similar situation earlier this year, and the snake ended up not eating and dying. I think my mistakes were handling the snake too much (don't handle it at all) and trying to feed too often. My temps also might have been a bit low.

I would try a live 'peach fuzzy' next time, and if that doesn't work, try to get ahold of a baby lizard and try feeding that. Also, put the food in the viv in the late afternoon and leave it there until the next morning. As a last resort, I've been told about something called the Pinky Pump, which is used for force feeding. I'm not sure where you'd get it, but maybe someone else here knows. Good luck.

[kathylove]

Many baby snakes want live the first few times, but will usually switch to f/t after a little while. Sometimes the live pink is just more stimulating, and they haven't learned to go completely by smell yet. I have also had babies that were already feeding on f/t, but refused and held out for live after the stress of moving to a new home. But it didn't take too many meals for them to change back. You should always have a back up plan to get live pinks, even if the seller tells you they feed on f/t. You just never know what the stress of a new home will tell their little brains to do. But don't think that a few live will mean a lifelong commitment! Just get her eating anything, and you can switch later.

Sometimes actually cutting the f/t pink in half and putting both halves in the deli cup works. Sometimes you have to scent it with something, who knows what? Lizards, gerbils, rats, hamsters, deer mice, even bird scenting has worked for some. Maybe its little brain is hardwired for kangaroos, lol! Of course, if she does have some kind of medical problem, then all of this scenting and teasing will be for nothing. She most likely won't eat if she is not healthy.

You do have her in a separate cage with a hot spot, etc? Don't remember if you mentioned that already.

Good luck!

[larryg]

I don't know what type of viv you have her in, but a small Kritter Keeper is what has worked for me, as far as getting newly arrived hatchlings to eat. You also want to leave her alone, for the whole evening. No peeking in. The blue thing underneath about 1/4 of the small plastic tank is a heating pad that also heats another tank (on a very low setting, of course.) The coffee cup is kept about 1/3 to 1/2 full of water, and they usually will climb on it. Obviously this is not a long term solution, just a way to provide a small area for a small snake to find its food, especially if it is a questionable eater, as that snake in the picture might have been (but she ate just fine). I would use the 'keep it simple' philosophy and only have paper towels for a substrate and no separate container for the prey item.

[Arson]

Small shoebox that has a UTH underneath. She's getting about 85 on the warm side with a hide and 73 on the cool side. She seems to be drinking well. I see her drinking pretty often. She doesn't always hide during the day either, unlike my other corns. Sometimes she's just leasurely lounging in a corner. I've tried fiddling with the temps just a tad to see if some of her behavior has to do with that, but like I said: she's been this way since day 1.

Kathy, I'm beginning to have my suspicions that she may be a very early '05 or very late '04. She's definitely my smallest corn. She seems very young. Fortunately, she doesn't seem emaciated. She's lasted this long. If she's indeed as young as I may suspect then you may be right. She may only feed on a live pink. I'm trying to give her some time between feeding sessions (usually ~5 days) so I don't overdo it. I haven't had a significant response aside from the first day where she only put her mouth on the mouse and then let go. Maybe she didn't like it dead. I'll keep trying. Thanks everyone.

[Arson]

I picked up a live pink today and tried teasing her with it. She seemed more interested than other times in the past, but after touching her nose to it and licking a few times she went back to trying to get out of my hand. I put her in a deli cup and put the deli cup in her viv. She's been sitting in the same spot for about 30 minutes while the pink is falling over itself. The room she's in can be a bit busy sometimes so I've put up a "shield" to keep her from seeing any of the motion. I really hope she eats soon. I was so excited to get this ghost because I have a snake with the hypo gene now. Unfortunately, if she doesn't start eating soon it looks like she won't make it.

[mbdorfer]

David, I feel for ya. I bought a little ghost last Oct. that was almost too docile, and against my better judgement I bought it. I put it in a deli cup and left the shop, went to my folks house, brought her in, opened the deli and took her out, she offered no resistance. I knew I made a mistake. Took her home and fed her 3 days later, and she died during the night with the pnky in her undigested. I was crushed. Hopefully this won't be the case for you. If you can, try raising the ambient room temp 5 degrees, and if you can handle it, bloody the pnky's nose. This has worked for me in the past. Good luck :cheers:

[sumguy]

The only way I could get my pine snakes to eat was to put them in their feeding container and put that inside a cupboard for a couple hours - very dark, very quiet. Think I've read people using brown paper lunch bags as well. If a very small, dark, and quiet container with a live/brained/scented pinkie doesn't work you may want to try a small lizard. Good luck.

[Arson]

Well she's been in a deli cup with this pinkie now for about 7 hours. She still hasn't eaten and (I've been at work) from what my roomie tells me she's still just sitting there. I'm becoming pretty worried and frustrated. All sorts of things are running through my head. Maybe I should have asked more questions, maybe she was really a hatchling, maybe she was being sold BECAUSE she is a problem feeder, maybe I've even been lied to. Most of the best lessons are learned the hard way: I've determined that learning the hard way sucks. I'm going to feed this pink to one of my other snakes and give this girl another try in a few days.

For suggestions so far I have this to try: blood on the pink's nose, braining the live pink, and scenting.

I'm not really sure how to go about scenting. My first thought was walking into a pet store and asking little Suzie who is probably some high school student, "Excuse me...could you please rub this on that gerbil?" I've already checked and none of the chain pet stores here carry live feeders. That's going to be a problem because the place I bought this pink only carries these feeders and a wide range of reptiles and amphibians. No rodents to use for scenting.

I'm not sure I could stomach braining a live pinkie. I could cut up dead ones all day, but something about holding that struggling little pink today would probably prevent me from removing it's skull cap. :-puke01:

If things become really desperate what's my worst case scenario? Force feeding? This is all very new to me. I'm beginning to feel very lucky that I haven't had feeding issues before now. The feeling of helplessness is agonizing.

[Arson]

[QUOTE=mbdorfer]If you can, try raising the ambient room temp 5 degrees,[\QUOTE]

The room I use is my computer room which, from a combination of two very active PCs and direct ambient sunlight for several hours of the day this room can often get up to 80-82 degrees during the day. With it being close to summer I'd be afraid to take any measures to actually raise the temperature in this room. It already gets pretty smokin and this girl has a warm side already.

[sumguy]

use f/t for braining or 'humanely' kill it then brain it. I think most people use lizards like an anole for scenting. They either rub it against the skin or encourage the anole to bite the pink and get saliva on it. If scenting doesn't work then you have the option of using the anole. Don't have experience outside of braining and live prey. perhaps some of the more experienced here can correct me? The only place I found live pinks was a tropical fish store. If it wasn't for that I would've had to try lizards. Think the milksnake went 3 weeks without eating.

[mbdorfer]

[QUOTE=mbdorfer]If you can, try raising the ambient room temp 5 degrees,[\QUOTE]

The room I use is my computer room which, from a combination of two very active PCs and direct ambient sunlight for several hours of the day this room can often get up to 80-82 degrees during the day. With it being close to summer I'd be afraid to take any measures to actually raise the temperature in this room. It already gets pretty smokin and this girl has a warm side already.
I had an amel with a regurge problem last year, I put her in a room I was able to keep at 85-86 degrees for a month and the problem stopped, just thought I'd mention it, as it's in my "bag of tricks" .Of course, regurge isn't your problem, but sometimes increased temp and humidity can trigger a good feeding response as well :cheers:

[Arson]

Just thought I should ask. It's very easy for me to get a hold of wild anoles around my house. Probably 20 minutes outside would yield at least one. If I try using an anole for scenting do you think I should try scenting a live pink or just a frozen one?

[larryg]

I think you'd probably want to try a live pinkie or very small fuzzy, depending on the size of the snake, before worrying about scenting. Will you have trouble buying a live one where you live? My WC Miami will only eat live mouse fuzzies, nothing pre-killed or even stunned. She's not even interested in live rat pinkies, although I may try again, since she was getting ready to shed the last time I tried that. Yes, I've tried moving the prey around and making it look 'alive.' It just doesn't work. Every snake is different. It's nice when they readily eat f/t, but there are some that never will. For now, I'd try to find a place to buy live mouse pinkies and see what they have to offer. Make sure you get one that appears healthy, not emaciated and half-dead. Leave it in there all night, undisturbed.

If you fear it's getting near 'the end' and she still hasn't eaten, you can always feed a small lizard, just for the snake to get some strength back. When I was a kid I fed my Corn snake lizards out of the yard all the time. I personally think lizards are sort of cool and don't like killing them, but they are so abundant I wouldn't feel that guilty feeding 1 or 2. Lizards are obviously a common food for snakes in their natural habitats.

[Arson]

I'm guessing you missed this before, Larry.

I picked up a live pink today and tried teasing her with it.

I've already tried a live pink with no results. Scenting seems like the next step.

[larryg]

Sorry, missed that. I don't know whether you are aware of this, but stress causes snakes not to eat sometimes, and you may be stressing her more with the teasing and handling. You don't need a separate feeding container. You don't need to do anything except put the live pinky in the viv and leave it alone until the following morning. If you can avoid handling the snake at all for 2 or 3 days prior, that's what you really should do. To put it into easy directions, Leave the snake alone for a few days - Open the cage - Toss the live, healthy pinky in around late afternoon/early evening, where the snake will see it - Go out and watch a movie or something (don't come back for a while, then don't disturb the snake when you do come back.) Leave the pinky there until the following day. Think about how a snake would eat in the wild, and try to duplicate that. As long as the temps are in the 70s, the temps really shouldn't be an issue.

[Arson]

Again Larry, I think you're missing some of my details. Each feeding attempt has 5 days between it. I don't handle the snake unless I'm feeding her. She's always left alone when attempting to feed until it was the 2 times I tried to tease her. These never lasted more than 3 or 4 minutes when it became obvious that she wasn't interested. This isn't my first snake, only my first problem feeder.

Also, the last 3 times I've fed her I've placed her into a container and then that container inside her viv. All my snakes eat in seperate containers. I cannot just toss the pink inside the viv for feeding because she's got aspen bedding in there. I'd have to change the bedding which might be more stressful than the measures I'm taking now.

[peep_827]

Well, I was hoping for good news on this . . . but at least it's not BAD news. :)

I am NO expert, so this is just my opinion . . . but if you have anoles running around could you catch one and scent a live pink with it? I wouldn't feel good trying to feed a wild lizard to a snake cause of the chance of parasites, but I don't think there'd be any harm in rubbing a pink with a wild lizard, tho it does seem like a strange thing to do. :rolleyes:

I've also read where people have put the pink in the tank or tub on a paper towel. I know there's a risk the snake will remove the pink to the substrate and eat some, but I think it would be good to reduce your snake's stress level as much as possible.

Another thought, could you get a baby anole from a pet store? If it came down to you might even chance it with a wild one. I don't know how long it's been since your snake ate, if it's coming down to life or death anyway, I'd take the chance.

Don't beat yourself up over not asking more questions when you bought her. You were excited about finding her, and you took it for granted she was okay. And maybe she is, maybe she's just a little extra nervous or maybe you haven't found the right food for her yet.

Let us know how she does, okay? Good luck!

[Arson]

Thanks, will do.

[larryg]

From what I've always heard, if you are feeding live, the aspen is not much of an issue. The chances of a problem are like 1 in 1000 or less. Feeding f/t is different and potentially more risky, because the food tends to be wet or at least damp (more sticky). It's too bad you can't contact the breeder. Most of the advice I've stated for you has been from a fairly respected breeder of Kings, Corns, etc., told to me back before my young snake died a few months ago. He also recommends braining pinkies, which I should have tried but didn't. I know you don't think you are stressing it out by handling it just for a minute, moving it back and forth from the viv to the feeding container, etc. I am not that up on all the morphs, but if a ghost is made from a Miami, the lizard scenting (or a small lizard) could make a difference.

[Arson]

Well, looks like I won't have to worry about my feeding problem anymore. I came home tonight to find this girl stiff and, sadly, dead. She didn't appear to have been dead very long because she wasn't cold and not too stiff. Upon closer inspection I noticed a dark black spot on her underside, something that looks very much like your average impaction. I've read lots about impaction, but I haven't fed this corn since I got her and it's been about 2 1/2 weeks. Could an impaction take this long to develop and kill her?

This is absolutely heartwrenching for me because I had such hopes for her. I guess she just wasn't meant to make it. Thanks to everyone for your advice. I've saved her in the freezer. Maybe I can take some pictures to show the spot I'm talking about.

[Joejr14]

Well, looks like I won't have to worry about my feeding problem anymore. I came home tonight to find this girl stiff and, sadly, dead. She didn't appear to have been dead very long because she wasn't cold and not too stiff. Upon closer inspection I noticed a dark black spot on her underside, something that looks very much like your average impaction. I've read lots about impaction, but I haven't fed this corn since I got her and it's been about 2 1/2 weeks. Could an impaction take this long to develop and kill her?

This is absolutely heartwrenching for me because I had such hopes for her. I guess she just wasn't meant to make it. Thanks to everyone for your advice. I've saved her in the freezer. Maybe I can take some pictures to show the spot I'm talking about.

As I said in the room, it might just be the gall bladder leaking.

Since you froze her, hit up a craft store and get a nice sharp razor/exacto knife, and do a little autopsy.

I did that with my anery that died to inspect the hard lump that was about an inch up from the vent.

Either way, you'll know if it was in impaction or just the gall bladder leaking.

[larryg]

Sorry about your loss. Mine was not using her hide and lying streched out all the time in the last week or so before she died. Mine did eat a pinky (after much fussing over, repeated attempts) and a baby lizard then stopped eating and died about 2 or 2 1/2 weeks later. I could tell mine was sort of a 'weak snake' from the moment I started handling her. She didn't seem to have that much strength and was small and dainty-looking. If you are planning to breed, you are better off working with snakes that will be GOOD eaters, not just snakes that can be made to survive. Here's my dead snake, taken after being frozen for a while, measuring in at only about 10 1/2 inches.