Anyone in NE Ohio have brown blaze rats?

[Amanda E]

I'd like to start a colony of rats, but I'd prefer to get some specific colors as I'd like to keep them as pets too.

I know of one local fancy breeder that has some rats, but I'd prefer not to lie to her about them being bred for feeders (she actually makes you sign a "no feeder" contract) nor pay $15 per rat.

Specifically, I'm looking for chocolate or cinnamon colored rats with a white blaze on their face. I don't care what color their belly is.

I also like Merles.

If anyone has these could you please contact me. Thanks.

(I thought about placing this in the wanted area, but figured that was just for ads for snakes. Feel free to move it Rich, if needed.)

[Taceas]

Well if you don't find any besides the one breeder, then it technically wouldn't be lying to sign the contract, at least in my opinion.

I've bought several male breeder mice from Petsmart, and they always make you sign a document saying that they're not going to become a feeder rodent. Just use the same rationalization that I do. You're buying the adults to make feeder babies. There hasn't been any document telling you what you can or can't do with the babies. They're just not wanting you to feed the ones you buy to snakes. And at $15 each, that's some expensive snake food!

Also, if you're raising them for pets as well as feeders, then there's even more reason to not worry about the semantics. In my eyes, you'd be keeping your word 100% if you were to sign such a document.

Which is the same thing I've told the Petsmart employees. I am NOT feeding $7 mice to my snakes, no matter what. He's going to live the life of luxury with as many dames and food as his little heart desires. I still have my last Petsmart male, I can't bear to feed him off. I keep seeing $$ when I get close. He's going on 2 years old now, and while he doesn't have as many swimmers as he used to, he produces the biggest, healthiest kits I have ever seen.

A lot of rodent breeders I've come across keep reptiles to cull off the less desirables. If they kept every mouse/rat they bred, they'd be over-run. So you never know what she has in her basement. ;)

Hope you find what you're looking for.

[Amanda E]

Yeah... I guess I could go with the breeder if I had to. I know the rats would be healthy that way. She actually asks that none of any resulting babies be fed as food either, but really... how would she ever know if I never told her.

Other than that I may have to start visiting some pet stores to find what I want. Now that I think of it, I haven't been in a pet store in over a year, but I may find something I hadn't expected.

[countMEout]

unless she is a corn snake enthusiast and has viewed your post.... I wouldn't worry at all feed away

[DAND]

Amanda,

Here is the closest I have to what you have described. They have whiteish blotches on their bellies. Maybe you could pick up a male or two from the breeder and breed them to theses females?

Also, I'll be doing a show in Michigan this weekend and I'll look and see what the rodoent guy there has.

[HeatherP]

Ohh You will all probably hate me for this but.... I am the voice of the other side.

I am a rat lover and hobby breeder. Those rats you would buy for 15 bucks come with pedigrees and are most likely from Show lines, would you want someone buying your snakes to use as food? Snake meat is pretty tasty you know (it doesnt taste like chicken either), and there are snake eating snakes out there that gotta eat too.
It is VERY important for ratteries to keep track of health problems that can pop up in lines and if someone buys kittens from them they will keep in touch so they know how the health of those babies are in the long run. Not to mention that all of those babies are handled everyday from birth to become sweet loving pets (min. of 20 mins a day), and are not at all like the 'feeder' rats that come from pet stores (when it comes to dispostion, kittens from a rattery are just like puppies, always wanting to climb on you and full of kisses, PS feeder rats tend to be skitish and not handled very much, bred in bulk and no worries over health or temperment problems).

Also, if you sign a contract, that is legally binding and if the breeder did find out about it, she/he could take you to court over it(at your expence). I wouldnt sue a person if they bought my kittens and used him/her to breed snake food, I would kill them. I bond with every baby born here and want to know how they are through out their lives. They will always be my grandbabies.

I understand pet snakes need to eat, but snake people need to understand that rat people take their rats and ratteries JUST as seriously.

[JenC]

well said Heather

[Taceas]

Heather, I understand your reasoning, just not the purpose I guess. Maybe I'm just out of line here but I need to say a few things that I'm thinking right now.

There are a lot of us on the "other side" here as well, just not to your extent I don't think.

Considering how well Amanda's snakes are cared for, I doubt she has anything less in mind when it comes to the rats that she breeds for snake food. And like I said in my earlier post, to me the breeder can only specify what she wants done with those that she sells herself. One cannot make such rules or claims for what hasn't been born yet. So its all within Amanda's rights to do with the offspring as she sees fit. A rat breeder cannot possibly keep up with all the offspring their sold animals have produced, unless they sell it to other rat fanatics I guess.

Maybe its just the "country" in me, but I have always shyed away from animal breeders that make me sign a written contract when buying the animal that I will not breed it, will not let it outside, de-claw it, spay it, enjoy it, etc etc etc. To me, once I buy that animal, its mine and I can do with it as I see fit (although I wonder about most people). Once they've sold it, that's the end of their responsibility from their end.

Perhaps such breeders have all the best intentions, but sometimes I have to wonder if they take it just a tad too far. They can stress their feelings to me verbally all they want, but that doesn't mean that I agree with them or will follow them. Only that they did get their point across. They've made their money, tried to encourage me to treat the animal with respect, thats all I want. If I wanted to sign a contract, I'd buy a car. But even with a car, you can't specify when you sell it what the new owners are going to do to it.

I've bought several rodents from Petsmart, and as long as I'm not feeding off that particular animal I bought, I am abiding by the form that I've signed saying it's not going to become a feeder animal. In my mind, they're living the life of luxury. All the food, girls, and treats they could ever want.

I breed my own rodents and snakes, and when I sell off animals I don't make requests as to whats to be done with them, other than the obvious. For me, thats the new owner's responsibility in their own home, not mine anymore. I've got my money, they have their pet, thats it.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a callous, inconsiderate owner/breeder, quite the opposite. I care very much about how my snakes/rodents are doing long after I've sold them. I just stop short of insisting things in another person's home. Caring and being supportive is one thing, but saying what can and cannot be done with an animal you sold 6 months ago has just flat run out of statute of limitations, imho.

A little FYI, I've given non-feeder baby corn snakes away to be snake food, so I guess I don't fit the perfect mold. Kingsnakes gotta eat too.

If it were up to me, I'd rather buy rattery bred rats, because I agree they have a much better temperment and health quality (which are bonuses in the snake world as well). But when rules are extended to include their offspring that is just a tad too much legality for me, so hence why I don't buy from such places and have to subsist with "pet rats" from petstores and try to raise up my own gentle ones.

This all sounds like the time we had to sign a 14-page contract when adopting a dog from the Missoula Humane Society. All the things that we couldn't do. And all for the dog dying a month later of health issues. Remind me if I want sign zillions of forms to go ahead an adopt a human child, it'd be much more fulfilling I think.

[arandani]

Well put!!

I've been breeding my own mice for about two official years now, and whenever I have come across a morph, pattern, or good dispositioned animal that would like to have living in a lap of luxury at MY expense, and produce equall or better offspring there is always some sort of 'legality' involved.

I can fully understand where these ratteries/breeders can get upset over 'looseing' a good animal to a 'cruel Repitle Breeder' who intends to breed the living daylights out of a quality female, but for many reptile enthusiasts who breed for feeders (like myself) we often DO get attatched to particularly outstanding animals, and give them more of a 'break'... at least I do at any rate (that and they get nice "Retirement" in a nice cage, fluffy shavings, and treats as often as they want..).

I had one female that I accquired from a petstore who had been a long term 'breeder for food' who just recently died, but let me tell you though I never bred her she was awsome 'second mom' that earned her a healthy retirement....

As for snakes... Who in their right mind is going to pay 25+ dollars a corn snake, or 45+ for a hatchling boid just to feed lets say a king, or a cobra? Most people who have such snakes get thier 'feeder snakes' for free (or nearly so) from reptile breeders who are culling out thier weakest, undesireable, un-sellable stock. And if they want to pay such money to breed feeder snakes of their own, more power to them....

[HeatherP]

The reason breeders should have contracts is all of the animals sitting in a pound, dumped on the side of the road etc. If someone adopts one of my babies, part of that agreement is to return the animal if they can no longer care for it or want it, I wont tell them if they can breed it or not, but I will recommend they look at what they are in for.

The breeding methods with animals was, for a long time very poor and our pets of today are paying the price for that with all the health problems that come attached. While I agree that it is possible to lose track of what happens to some of the babies you might have raised and sold, you can atleast do your best to keep track of them. Knowing more about the health of the offspring can help increase the lifespan and health of furture pets. IMO a good breeder isn't in it for the money and should never be in it for the money.

I am not against people breeding rodents to feed their snakes, I am against people buying them from a person(rattery) that has bred them and any future offspring of theirs to be pets or show animals. Then there is the dishonesty thing, you are, no matter how you look at it. If you say you arent going to breed the rat(s) to make feeders and you are, thats called what?

I dont agree with Pet Smart making people sign contracts, why should they care what happens to the rats when they have them sitting up to their eyeballs in sawdust bedding? Most of the animals I've seen there were looking rather sad. Those rats come from the same place the feeder rats come from at the local pet stores. Most of the people who work there dont know diddley about much of anything to begin with.

I never said that the ratties wouldn't be cared for, I would hope anyone would treat an animal they call pet with love and care.
I have to say spending $25-45 bucks on a snake to eat is no crazier than dishing out $30 on a pair of (same-sex) rats, as for that C word, ack, I wont start on that, I won't even cull my baby bettas that are deformed, I may 'play god' when it comes to putting mom and dad togeather, but I wont cull, no stomach for it. :eek1:

[HeatherP]

The reason the temperment of a rattey rat is better is only to do with people handling the kittens from day one for a min. of 20 mins. Mine (when I have them) get a min. of 3 hours a day, any kitten, from a ps mom or what have you will be JUST as sweet with the same attention. I have rescued rats intended for snake food and found them to have very good temperments, but I put that down to them listening to their insticts better and knowing when their bacon has been saved.

[arandani]

No culling eh? then what do you do with all the sick deformed animals? I don't see culling as 'playing god', or as cruelty to my animals..rather it is a security net for responsible breeders, and for the future of your stock/reputation as a reputible breeder as opposed to a negligent hobbiest.... It insures that only the healthiest animals propigate, and that you don't get an animal returned to you on the bases that you sold them an animal that was 'falty'; when in actuallity the illness/injury could be traced to poor husbandry practices thus ending the possibility for a law suit..
Sure I have run across some of my own animals had great dispositions worthy of preservation, but how do you insure that the person who adopts them will not breed them and flood the 'market' with less desireable animals.. I raise mice, as I am not allowed to keep rats, and have frequently come across 'tainted' lines from supposed "show mouse" breeders..half of their mice were riddled with cancer, and of course they don't want 'reptile people' to buy thier stock...in that case they have no worries. No selfrespecting person would ever feed a diseased animal to thier snakes out of fear of the illness spreading to their reptiles, but I know for a fact that most here who breed their reptiles would never stake thier reputation on irresponsibility.

All of my stock are bred for coat quality, disposition, and health...and would gladly like to see my most tame animals to good homes, however a lot of what I breed for plays into the health of my snakes, something I would not trade for any amount of 'pet store' feeders.

As for "listening to thier instincts, knowing thier bacon has been saved..." I'd say you were just lucky and found a good pet quality rat amongst a mob of 'lesser' rodents, who aren't even worthy of being snake food...

3 hours a day is admireable, but I have to say, you must not have much to do with your time..I don't mean to be a jerk, but 3 hours a day per animal seems a bit excessive..especially if you have lets say three pairs of breeders, to be generous, and between them each have seven pups, or 'kittens' as you may wish to call them...the math dosen't add up in my mind... something like 72 hours a day, is about the amount of time you would have to spend to make your statement true...20min a day is something more like 24hrs I believe...

[HeatherP]

So far the only deformed critters born in my house have been my bettas, fishies, and I kept every ones of them (deformed), but when you have something that can produce up to 700 babies in a go, you will get the problem few. But where there is a will to live, there is a right. We can blame the vets I grew up around for that outlook.

If I were to have a deformed/sick animal born, the line would be stopped depending what the problem was, and any of my sick animals go straight to the vet for treatment, yes all of them. However I would keep the baby and love him or her the same.
I am not a power breeder, I have 2 litters maybe every 6-9 months, I also make and maintain friendships with the people who have adopted my littles ones. (I know where all of my ratties are, who with and how they are doing, as well as the babies sired by my buck.) Nor I do not breed my animals unless I have the intention of keeping some of them. 3 hours may seem a bit much to you, but my animals are my life and that is what I do with my day, beats cleaning a kitchen hands down or watching some silly soap on t.v. (I would shoot myself first lol) When I do have kittens, if they dont need to be fed, you can bet I have them, and spending time with them doesn't have to be 1 at a time like your math implies, it can be in group form, like watching a movie with my kittens on my tummy, or running around the house with little sleepy heads in my 'fanny pack' and once they are big enough, group play time on the bed. (That is ALWAYS great fun watching ratties and kitties bouncing around like mad monkeys.)
So far the the people who have taken my kittens are always ready and willing to take more of my babies and are happy to wait until I do have a litter.

I know there are 2 stands on culling, pro and anti, I am anti. But then again, with my hips/back and wrists being messed up I probably would have been culled if I had been anything but human. IMO if you are culling off your kittens so that it is 'easier' for the mom to care for them or whatever you will never beable to fully know what is going on with that line. I am not saying all breeders are good, there are alot of breeders out there that are just in it for the money and while they may breed pretty animals in number, they breed problems as well. And then you have those who breed for an 'ideal' without thought for the health problems that would cause the animal, I just went to a cat show and I swear the persians had inverted noses, not flat face like we imagine them, but pushed in. It was sick, poor kitties.
I don't want to be a 'big time' breeder, I am out to be a caring one, I have seen so called quailty breeders keeping animals in sicking condition simply because they have too many to care for. As it stands I have 7 bucks and 7 does, half of the group are non-breeding recues. My motto is 'Breed the best, Love the rest' :)

I know my outlook on life is really out there for most people, but I can't stop remembering that we are related to rats in the natural scheme of things.

:)

[Amanda E]

Wow... didn't mean to start an disagreement.

As to being dishonest to a pet rat breeder... well, that's why I asked if anyone had any "feeder" rats, so that I wouldn't be tempted to buy rats from the pet rat breeder.

The thing is... I would like a nice pair of rats, the kind you speak of that are very nice and cuddly... hense why I said I'd keep them as pets, not just breeders/feeders.

If you would ask me how many pets I have, I'd tell you 10... 1 dog and 9 snakes. But I most certainly have 20+ mice as well, I just don't consider those animals as pets, though I sometimes think they eat better than me. The rats I was looking for here would be treated as pets... but this is not to say that their babies wouldn't be used as just breeders/feeders.

(On the subject of culling.. I have no problems with it, in mice, in snakes, etc. I'd rather see an animal put out of it's misery than to let it suffer just because I couldn't stomach killing it.)

[princess]

Back to the contract issue....

Does the contract get passed on from owner to owner? If you got your friend to buy you some rats from the breeder as pets and your friend signed the contract, would you be legally obliged to follow the 'no feeders' contract?

If the breeder sold the rats to a 2nd party and they were then sold on to you, does the responsabilty get passed on or does it get dissolved?

It's all technicality and the such, but it would be interesting to know the wording of the contract. If it just says... 'the rats sold to 'John' from 'Jane' on the 25th of May 2005 are not to be fed to another animal....well then that's OK if they're being bred to make food to feed your snakes. If the contract states that they are not to be used in breeding colonies for raising prey animals...that's a whole other story.

[arandani]

Thankyou for going further into detail, now I can see where it is you are comming from as far as your animals are conserned... I am sure they are all wonderful animals, good luck with future projects....

And I have to say I am also curious about Princess's queston in regards to contracts...What a mess to deal with as a rattery...

[HeatherP]

I guess that would all depend an what the contract says. Does it say that you need to return them if you are no longer willing/able to care for them etc.? Amanda would have to get a copy of it first (some breeders make you fill out an app. to apply to get one of their rats) and then she could better understand it.

I tried to a buy a drop dead beautiful mink once, but when the breeder found out (my dumb butt for blabbing) that he was going to be a b-day present for my husband (who is FOREVER whinning that my critters wont cuddle with him lol, loyal beasties) she refused to sell to me on the ground that a 'gift' isn't always wanted etc etc. That I understand is true, I have a pair of rats I just got from a kid who lost interest, but man, it really sucked. Bascially, if you are going to be sneaky, learn from me and keep your mouth shut :)

IF there is nothing in the contract about rehoming than no, that first contract wouldn't be valid anymore if the rats were passed on as the contract would be between the breeder and inital owner.

You also need to remember that the breeder will only sell in a same-sex pair if you don't have any rats (rats arent very happy on their own unless you keep them free-range) and if you are wanting a particular color brown (agouti, chocolate, havana, mocha etc. although all pet rats are 'brown' rats) with the blaze markings you will need to find suitable mates with the same gene codes to keep the colors coming or you will end up with blacks and agoutis(wild color - cinnimon brown) that carry the color you want. The merles tend to to come mainly from minks and lilacs but dont quote me on that :) As soon as you think something is fact, mother nature slaps you with a reality check :)

I would say look into the local pet store feeder bins, the kittens come in a wide range of colors and markings, some very beautiful, the local ps back home takes all the 'beautiful' ones and puts them up as pet rats. They came from the same place, they just charge you more for the 'pet' term. Saddly most of them will be suffering some sort of resp. problems from all that softwood bedding they keep them in but its nothing that a course of baytril won't cure (in most cases.)

*I am a firm believer in animals listening to their insticts and being able to read us better than we can read them, I am god awful when it comes to listening to my 'gut reaction' but I always found my pets were dead on in their reactions. I listen to them now, don't like kicking myself seven sides of stupid because hindsight gave me perfect vision.

Hehe, no arguments here, it was just an oppionated dispute between breeding ideals :flames:

Anyway, I wish you luck in your search and hope you can find your blazed babies.

[princess]

Last year I started up a little mouse breeding colony with 2 pregnant females and when the pet shop keeper asked me why I would intentionally choose 2 pregnant mice...I answered honestly....Thank goodness I'd already payed for them and had the box in my hand at that point!!! I ensured her that those 2 mice would have an excellent life and a great home and so would their offspring until they turned 5 weeks old and then they would be quickly killed and put in the freezer. She looked horrified but I asked her where she thinks snake keepers get their mice from otherwise? -I guess she got my point!

So those 2 pregnant pet shop mice eventually made their way to the freezer too, but in the time they lived with me they had the best life a mouse could hope for and that's really all she could ask of me.

My whole reason for breeding feeders was to monitor the quality of my prey items as I was not happy with the 100 packs of frozen mice I was buying at the time. I now have a good supplier so it's no longer an issue...and I don't miss the cleaning!

[arandani]

Baytril? Where do you get this from? Can I get it through a vet or store? I ask because I recently went to a pet store to get 'feeders' for my snakes, and the guy gave me a mouse with a respiratory problem..unknown to me, until I got home and didn't want to drive around blazing pheonix anymore with a box full of mice who were already near to sweating to death. Also she is a cutie, not worthy of ball python food; and I have always wanted one of her color ;).

[HeatherP]

Yup, the vet, rats and mice tend to run pretty cheap for a visit (cheaper than getting my cats seen) and baytril is dead cheap as far as meds go. If you take her in the vet can give you the med, when you get home, find out her weight and keep a note of it along with the prescribed amount (0.1 ml or ...) in the future if you have a mice or rat thats sick, you can call up and tell them blah blah has a resp. infection, could I pick up a course of baytril, or so-and-so has one and weighs this much :) You got the idea. It's really good if you have a great vet how will work with you.

Err, if the shop clerk was so concerned about you picking pregger females to feed the babies to snakes, than why do they keep the boys and girls togeather? That one always stumps me.