feeding probs, help terri or anyone

[sircat]

well, I know terri works wonders, but anyone with ideas, please help

my baby ghost corn was 17" when I got him in late Feb '05...so guessing he hatched late fall, early winter...
he was eating 2 f/t pinkies a week...I got him and he shed 2/20/05, ate 2 on 2/25/05, refused to eat 3/3/05, ate 2 3/6/05, regurged 3/9/05 (I had a couple visitors that night that spoke loud and lively)....I waited to feed again

he ate 1 on 3/21, 1 on 3/28, 1 on 4/4....refused 4/10...I moved him to my room in case the tv was bothering him, but he rejected 5/3 and 5/14

he's looking thin, triangular in shape...I have no idea what to do...I haven't handle him since regurge other than to quickly change the paper towel in the cage when needed

very worried...at what point should I consider force feeding? could he be winter fasting like males even though he's so young? help please....thanks

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/sircat/000_1579.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/sircat/000_1580.jpg

[Rosebear]

Here's something you can sure try... Thaw your pinkies in a plastic bag in water about 90 degrees...you may want to reheat it. Make sure they're completely thawed (rub between your fingers to detect any cold-you don't want to feel any cold). Take it (them) out of the bag onto a paper towel to remove any excess moisture. Take a razor blade, exacto knife or small sharp scissors and cut through the skin on the back of the mice from side to side in a couple of places. Put the food into a plastic container with a lid. Take your snake out of the viv, handle it briefly, put the plastic container into the viv, add the snake giving it a chance to scent the slices on the backs. Hopefully this will really strike his fancy! You could go so far as to puncture the brain or abdomen if the first try doesn't work. Once the snake is in, set the lid gently on top-but don't fasten it down, cover with a towel, and close your tank. Walk away for an hour. Go back and gently uncover your snake and remove the lid. He'll exit on his own...hopefully with a happy meal in his tummy! Good luck!

[sircat]

I have been cutting the backs since the beginning and they're always warmed with water in plastic bags (so not wet)...I haven't tried a seperate feeding container...I was wondering about covering the tank (covering the tank or container? not sure which you meant), but I always turn off the light in that room right after...I was wondering if putting paper around the sides of the tank would help get him on track...I just didn't think things could go so wrong since he was eating ok before and seemed to get better after regurge but now won't touch a thing....I really hope he gets better...I'll try the seperate container next...I don't think cutting abdomen will help since some seems to come through the side when I cut the back...will try braining after...I tried not cutting pinkie the last time in case that made a difference and it didn't

should I offer him food nightly or wait in between? I've been waiting 5-7 days usually

[gardenmum]

sircat, you shouldn't offer food every night as that only appears to make a snake even less apt to bother with the prey item. But I wouldn't wait 7 days either but would try every 3-4 days when a young snake is eating poorly.

That snake already looks like it is losing ground and I think it would be best to get something down it. It looks pretty thin so I would take a pinky head - you can take a frozen pinky and just break the head off, a lot easier than trying to do it thawed - then thaw the head and put the snake in a small containr, a very small one, a deli cup if you have one or something that size. Put the pink head in with it and put it in a place that it willl stay warm, just DON'T put it over the heat source in your viv as you could "cook" the snake.

Sometimes baby snakes have a terrible time finding their prey in a large viv and it is best to feed them in a small container until they are eating very well in their viv on their own.

If the snake still does not eat then you may have to force feed it pink heads for a little while to get it built back up. You are right to be concerned when your snake is looking that thin. Sometimes once they get rolling on the non-eating bit, it takes a bit to get them back on track.

If the snake does eat the head, then offer him another one, the same way, in 3-4 days and repeat this for a few close feedings. Then you can offer him the bodies every 4 days then go back to full pinks and build him back up slowly till he is on 2 pinks every 6 days.

Good luck, I hope you can get the little one to eat.

[KatieL]

Waiting 5-7 days is good. If you offer food to often they may develop an ingrained refusal response to that type of food item. That said, you are doing things exactly right!!!

On other thing to try is putting the snake in a container where it fits snuggly with not too much room to move around (do you still have the deli cup he came in? something that size would work well). Put him in the container with the food item, and leave him with it (preferably someplace dark, if you can) for a few hours. When you come back he will hopefully have enjoyed a nice meal, and if not, its alright to leave him in with it overnight. I usually put the deli cups inside another container (like their normal cage) just to give me peace of mind that they cannot get out. You can also try covering the container while you leave him to eat...anything you can think of to make him feel secure.

Good luck! I hope he eats for you real soon!

[KatieL]

Okay, Dianne beat me to the post. She has some excellent advice. If she says 3-4 days I'd go with that, she definitly knows what she is doing. Good luck.

[sircat]

thanks so much...I will try a pinky head and body won't be wasted since my beardie will eat it if it's not feeding time for my other baby corn...I was offering him the smallest pinkies from the bag...he knows it's there in his cage b/c he'll lay there with it right in front of him...but hopefully the container will make him feel more secure
how many times should I offer a pinky head before I try force feeding? and how do I try to prevent a regurge?
and please tell me how to force feed in case...my thought would be to gently open mouth, push head in and then massage neck and body until it's about halfway down

[Joejr14]

Have you tried a very small live pinkie?

[PtDnsr]

As joe suggested I'd try a live pink. Maybe the movement will attract your snake. As a last resort you can always try scenting with lizard. I wouldn't actually feed lizard because it can be very hard to get them to go back to pinks but sometimes if the pink is scented they'll go for it. We had to do this with one I got for my dad. She reverted back after we got her (she ate pinks fine for the breeder). One another note, it couldn't hurt to check your temps and make sure that they're warm enough on one side but not too hot. Good luck!

~Katie

[gardenmum]

he was eating 2 f/t pinkies a week...I got him and he shed 2/20/05, ate 2 on 2/25/05, refused to eat 3/3/05, ate 2 3/6/05, regurged 3/9/05 (I had a couple visitors that night that spoke loud and lively)....I waited to feed again

If he was being fed two pinks and doing good on them before you got him and seemed to be doing well at first, I am going to make a guess that maybe your temps are not right for proper digestion. Make sure his temps are where they should be where he is laying. This means not just checking the air temperatures in the viv but also checking the substrate temps where he is laying. You can do this by putting a thermometer into the substrate a little, buying a thermometer with a probe on it so it is always showing you the substrate temps or getting a temp gun that gives you instant readout of the surface you put it on. However you do it, you should know what temperature it is that the snake is laying in. Most people think that too cool temps are the only thing to be concerned about but too hot is also not good. Either one can cause the snake to regurge and otherwise not thrive well.

I am not saying that this IS the reason for any of the problems you are having, but that you should make sure to rule this out.

It is not likely that people talking, even loudly, in a room where your snake is housed, would cause a regurge. Unless the people are poking at him or otherwise bothering him, they are deaf so loud talking will not affect them. I have some vivs in my rooms and the snakes in those do not show any stress at being around occassional noise and eat and act as well as the ones in the strictly snake room. So, unless they or you were handling the snake after its feeding, I would say it was a different cause that made him regurge.

Also, not only will low or improper temps cause a regurge, it will also cause a snake to go off feed.

I was offering him the smallest pinkies from the bag...he knows it's there in his cage b/c he'll lay there with it right in front of him...but hopefully the container will make him feel more secure

Yes, sometimes being in close quarters with the food without the ability to "walk away" entices them to eat. Also, the smell of the insides of a decapetated head is more enticing than a whole pink. My concern with suggesting just a head is because of the fact that he seems to have lost a bit of weight and the last thing you want to do is stress his digestive tract again should he decide to eat. Closer together tiny meals is much better at this point than further apart large ones.


how many times should I offer a pinky head before I try force feeding? and how do I try to prevent a regurge?

To be honest, by his looks I'd be concerned. I wouldn't wait too long before I force fed him a head. But first try the small container way. If he refuses, I personally would force feed him, maybe he just looks worse in the pic than he is, but he looks real thin. But you need to take care in how you force feed so as not to cause more stress then the benefits of the feeding. Remember though, even if he does eat the head or does get force fed, your temps HAVE to be good for him to digest it properly and begin to get better.

If you had some benebac, I'd definitely suggest giving him that to help with the digestion. Also, if/when he is feeling a bit better, I'd consider giving him some flagyl.

The way to prevent another regurge is simple.....don't overfeed him and make sure his temps are proper. I don't think I can stress proper temps too much. One thing to keep in mind, although some snakes will pull back from something like this, others when they get too far behind the eight ball just don't seem to come back no matter how well everything is set up. So, do your best and I hope things work out well.

[sircat]

thanks...I'm not sure how I would fix temps if there is a prob...he's on just paper towel in a 10g with a zoo med heating pad for a 10g underneath
too hot, too cold...there's a wide range in the tank and I put his hide toward the cooler middle...will go check temp with what I have at the moment...
ok...room temp 73, 74, same as cool side...cool side of hide 76, 77, warm side 85....hot side of tank is 102!!!....ambient temp there is 85...he doesn't usually go on that side...I'm not sure what to do...I have heard babies do fine at room temp...other option I can think of is to put aspen in to absorb some heat since I'll be feeding him in a cup
you lost me on the meds...are they available at pet store...I think ppl have said you find flagyl at bait shops but we don't have anything like that...

[sircat]

oh...and was my description of how to force feed good?
I also have a couple med rats left (for my female bp) I know some ppl feed the tails of rats...I don't know if that's also good or how long a piece (if force feeding, alternate btwn the heads and tail? or whether just heads then bodies is better)

[sircat]

and to answer about live...it seems like live is too big at this point if it's just supposed to be a head...but unless the pet store has babies...but I think that's moot now?
I haven't been so unsure of a situation with any of my other animals before as to how to do things or how likely anything will work
when I was concerned after regurge on another forum and then he ate but started refusing, someone replied that babies who don't eat from the start live 3 months...but after a little over a month of no eating it was just too worrisome and so I brought it up here luckily...I hope I can get him healthy and that I caught this in time and can fix things

[PtDnsr]

thanks...I'm not sure how I would fix temps if there is a prob...he's on just paper towel in a 10g with a zoo med heating pad for a 10g underneath
too hot, too cold...there's a wide range in the tank and I put his hide toward the cooler middle...will go check temp with what I have at the moment...
ok...room temp 73, 74, same as cool side...cool side of hide 76, 77, warm side 85....hot side of tank is 102!!!....ambient temp there is 85...he doesn't usually go on that side...I'm not sure what to do...I have heard babies do fine at room temp...other option I can think of is to put aspen in to absorb some heat since I'll be feeding him in a cup
you lost me on the meds...are they available at pet store...I think ppl have said you find flagyl at bait shops but we don't have anything like that...

How are you measuring the temp? Ambient is not as important as the temperature of the substrate or surface (as important just because surface is usually much hotter than air). I believe you can get an indoor/outdoor thermometer/probe for cheap and use that if it would help. The warm side definately needs to be cooled some. It also couldn't hurt to provide multiple hides. One on each side at least - that way he feels more secure. Paper towel rolls work great for babies - plus it lets them have a gradient easily hidden.

~Katie

[CornCrazy]

It seems as if you have gotten a lot of good information. Dianne has rehabilitated a lot of non-feeders, too. There probably isn't much else I can tell you, to be honest.

I will say that the temps do not need to be 102 degrees! You need to get a thermostat on that heater! If the temps are too high, it can cause feeding and or regurge problems, too.

If you do have to force feed him, you may want to start with a small piece of a rat tail (about 1 to 1-1/2 inches long from a rat pup). It will be easier for you to force feed that than it would a pink or pink head. Once you get the hang of getting something down him, you can change food items. To force feed the tail, simply pry his mouth open gently, and insert a moistened tail into it. Gently work the tail down until the snake either starts swallowing it or his mouth can close. Once his mouth is closed, you can gently massage his throat until he swallows the tail.

If you can get hold of some 1-2 day old live pinks, then you could try that, as well. Typically they are very small at that age.

Good luck! I hope you can get him going again! Do you still have my phone number? You can call me if you have any specific questions!

[sircat]

thanks, yes I still have your number
no people, this snake is not from terri
I've never dealt with a thermostat...what store would have them? we don't have superstores in ny
I have only med rats, adult mice, crawlers and pinks. So which would be best?

measuring not with a probe but with a dial thing I have that's pretty much on target...not something everyone would trust but so far it has seemed quite true...the warm side of the cage feels warm to me but I can leave my hand there and not have it burn
would aspen over the hot side or all of the cage help until I find a thermostat and such?
I was planning to offer a head tonight

[CornCrazy]

thanks, yes I still have your number
no people, this snake is not from terri
I've never dealt with a thermostat...what store would have them? we don't have superstores in ny
I have only med rats, adult mice, crawlers and pinks. So which would be best?
You're welcome. Call me if you need to.

You can get a thermostat on-line. A fairly inexpensive one is an ESU reptile temperature controller. I think Big Apple Herps sells them for around $35. You can also make your own rheostat. DdotSpot created a thread (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19168&highlight=rheostat) that shows you how. I've made some with his instructions and it is very easy.

I would use the tail off of an adult mouse. Only use about 1 to 1-1/2 inches though.

[sircat]

Thanks
and that post was explained very well and I'd like to try it

[gardenmum]

Rachel, if your saying that you are measuring your temps with a dial thermometer getting ambient air temps and it is saying that your warm side is 102 degrees and your cool side is about 77 degrees, I think you are going to be shocked as to the surface temps that you are expecting your snake to lay in.

AND also, so you will know and for others reading this thread, paper towel gives NO barier between the heat source and the snake. I suggest you put your hand over the area of your heat source to get an idea of how hot it really is to the snake. I am not criticizing you at all, this is a comon mistake with many people because they just don't realize how hot the UTH's can get and that newspaper and paper towel offer no barier to that heat. I would heavily suggest that you get Aspen and use that as a substrate instead of paper towels. Paper towels are fine if you are using them in vivs or containers that are housed in rooms kept at a steady ambient air temp of 82 degrees but not when a UTH is used as the heat source. I think you will find once you get your temps proper in your viv that your eating problems will go away.

And another thing, you really have to understand is that a 10 gallon with a UTH does not allow a lot of lee way for hot to cool side, another reason that a thermometer with a probe attached would be very beneficial.

I hope all goes well.

[sircat]

it gave surface area...I can put my hand on it for a long time (until it gets really boring)

yeah, I was asking if I should add aspen...was told to keep babies only on paper towel....I will add aspen tonight (I put aspen over paper towels so getting aspen out is easier) and search for the dimmer heat control materials tomorrow

[sircat]

I had him in the cup with the pinky head for the last 6 hrs and he didn't eat it...so I did force feed the part of mouse tail...freaked me out a little b/c I didn't know their bottom jaw quite bent like that and thought I broke it at first...but all was fine...got it down 2, 3 in and really really hoping for the best...
and you're right, tail was easier than head would have been...I was able to slip it in...think I'd need something to hold jaw open if/when I try a head...
thanks...and hope I can get him on track...really hoping

[Alias47]

Good luck Rach...seems all the best advice has been given...

[DdotSpot]

yes, and do tell us if that rheostat idea worked or not :-/

[kathylove]

Sorry, I didn't have time to read the whole thread. But I see where you got a tail down. Pinkie heads go down pretty easily with the help of a little butter too. If he doesn't hold that down, I would go with a little Iams cat food (the finely ground canned type), mixed with a little water and pushed through a tea strainer, then given in a feeding tube or eye dropper. 1 cc of liquid for the first feeding. Of course, I always also mix in some Nutri Bac if there is any question of digestive health of the animal.

Sorry if anyone already gave that advice, but I have to go out to feed the new babies now - gotta go!

Good luck!

[Alias47]

Never heard of the cat food trick...at least not that I remember...

Will have to be sure to write that one down....

[sircat]

thanks derek
dan...I actually didn't put the rheostat together since once I put the cedar in, the surface of the cedar on that side is 87...he's been crawling around a lot and kept the tail down...so I'm hoping it stimulated him to eat again....since surface there is right with the cedar, I didn't think I should change it, but correct me if I'm wrong

offering a mouse head again tonight...if he doesn't eat it, I'll force feed another tail and try the head as well...is that ok or too much or should I do one or the other?

thanks kathy...literal butter? lol...how's Smart Balance margarine?
so far he kept the tail down so hopefully it'll keep getting better...haven't heard of the cat food idea...thanks and hope I don't have to use it...
I saw you in PA in Nov but you seemed exhausted so just said hi...heard my butter (got him from a LIHS person at the westchester expo) was originally from you and he's a beauty

[CornCrazy]

Rachel...you need to ditch the cedar! It is not good for them. Please try aspen or one of the other "reptile safe" products.

I'm glad he kept the tail down!

[PtDnsr]

Rachel...you need to ditch the cedar! It is not good for them. Please try aspen or one of the other "reptile safe" products.

I second that - ditch the cedar. I personally like aspen but that's just preference. Others use reptibark, eco earth, cage carpeting...just not cedar (or pine).

~Katie

[kathylove]

If you have been using cedar the whole time, that could be a big part of your problem. Dump it right away!

I have especially found the liquified cat food helpful for snakes that were really weakened for any reason (disease, egg laying, regurging, whatever). When I mix it with Nutri Bac and give small, frequent feedings, (and access to a good heat gradient) it makes a powerful natural healing combination.

[Alias47]

I know everyone else already said it...but I must stress...

RACH...DON'T USE CEDAR...

It is known to cause respiratory and neurological damage in snakes and reptiles...and may cause death.

Use aspen...it's the best, cheapest and easiest...

Other than paper...

[sircat]

I'm sorry...slip of such a wrong word...I've been a bit sick since a couple nights ago...and for some odd reason typed cedar (and kept using the word apparently)

sorry for that

I of course only use aspen


I don't think he likes being in the container for feeding...he couldn't care less about the head in there...just tries to get out and then gives up...

so will force feed again tonight...

should I try tail again and head or just head? will margarine work if needed?

[sircat]

sorry, hoping for an answer...

can I try feeding part of tail and pinky head or will that overdo it? and if I had to choose, which would be best...tail was easier than it seemed a head would be

[gardenmum]

Rachel, a tail is not enough nutrients for a snake that age. It is one thing to start a non feeder neonate with but even then, they cannot stay on it since it is not enough nutrition. You are much better off feeding the head. It is not as easy but much much better. I don't have time right now to explain how I feed the head or a whole pink but will try to get back here and let you know. But keeping it on just tails will not sustain it. Kathy Love's suggestion of the "gruel" is excellent. If you can't feed the head, try her food suggestion.

[sircat]

sigh...well thanks for all the help
he was curled up mostly behind his hide like he does sometimes when I woke up...but when I went back in now he looked the same but somehow a bit off...so I touched him and nothing...
picked him up (poor little thing is dead)...I don't think he digested the mouse tail (was a dark olive green spot on his belly)...and he had chomped on a bunch of the aspen in there and had a bloody jaw with aspen stuck in it...poor little guy...I don't know what went so wrong...can they develop digestion probs?

[CornCrazy]

I am VERY sorry, Rachel!

I agree that a tail is not enough to sustain one for long. I just suggested it until Rachel got as bit more comfortable with force feeding. I have tube fed some difficult feeders with canned cat food, too. It works well short-term, but doesn't have the proper nutrients to use long-term for snakes.

[KatieL]

I'm really sorry Rachel! I've been following this thread, and I was really hoping for the best. I was pulling for you two! Sometimes some snakes just aren't meant to make it though. Rest assured that you did everything you could for him. I'm really sorry for your loss. :(

[sircat]

well, is my fault since I didn't catch it in time if I could have remedied it earlier and he just stopped eating after about a month in my care...just wondering (since temps were fine with aspen even though that was a mess in the end)...didn't seem like he digested the tail...temps seemed right...could something otherwise destroy his digestion?
can't focus on this too much now...and kinda glad my first attempt at breeding corns didn't work this year...hopefully this will prepare me for things to come...
I hadn't seen pics of thin corns that you have to worry about so until I noticed he was thin and thought I should try something more proactive, I didn't know what really bad looks like...but he looked really bad when I found him today

[sircat]

also...someone else who got a ghost (I'm pretty sure from same breeder) had his die...it always had a problem eating and he was force feeding...
so just don't totally know all reasons

[CornCrazy]

Unfortunately Rachel, some of them just don't make it. I am glad that you are looking at this as a learning experience. It will definitely help you to be better prepared in the future!

[gardenmum]

Rachel, I am very sorry you lost your baby.

In answer to your questions, seeing as he had eaten for you fine when you got him and as your temps were very high in your viv, I would surmise that that was the cause of his going off feed. I am sorry this type of leason gets learned this way, but don't kick yourself too much over it. We all learn from our mistakes and as you are obviously trying to learn and do things right, that is what you should focus on now. When you showed the pics I really had my doubts on getting it to come back as I have seen non feeders/force feeders get that far and saving them is very rare.

Now that you have aspen in your viv and have things properly regulated you should find it easier for your next one. I definitely hope you will try again as I am sure you care and you would enjoy this hobby.

Best. :)

[Alias47]

Wow...Rach I am sorry...
That is such a terrible thing...

We'll just have to find you another one...

Let me see if there is anything at my house I don't want...LOL

I'll make you a good deal...

[sircat]

thanks all...I have a lot of pets...I had 2 more snakes on my realistic wish list...not sure if I'll get another corn soon or wait or what...things are tough and I can't purposely add now...just wiser to care for what I have now and wait until things start getting on track