Sick mice

[marcym]

Background: I got tired of spending $2.25 per pinky for daughters snake, so being the tightwad that I am, I started attempting to breed mice about 6 months ago. Daughter helps at a petting zoo that does small town festivals, so they started me out with some of their breeders at a ratio of 1:3 that I keep in a 10 tank. I started out feeding them expensive mice and hamster food, but then realized that I was spending more on food than what I would buying the pinkies to begin with. Now they are eating a mixture of cracked corn and sunflower seeds that I get at the local farm supply store.

Out of the first group of 4, one of the females had a litter and I watched her bite their little heads off. (Snake had just eaten expensive pet store pinkies, or I would have fed them right away. I AM NOT killing and freezing the things)Then the male began looking hunched back and was dead the next day. I bought a new male from a pet store, within several weeks he had a hunched back and was dead within days. Then it started happening to the females. They get all scruffy looking, start getting a hunched back, and die.

All of the mice that I began with have been replaced as each one dies. I have bought from different pet stores and the petting zoo to see if one works better than the other. I do clean the cage completely after each death. I still have a ratio of 1:3. I've had a total of 3 litters, and each time the mom bites their heads off. I understand that adding to the group is disrupting and could be the cause of the cannabilism.

I guess at this juncture I have several concerns and am looking for suggestions that I haven't been able to find after reading this forum for several months.

1. What is this hunched back thing that I have going on? Is it contagious?
2. Why do most of my mice appear to be celebate? 3 litters in 6 months has the petting zoo people and 3 different pet stores baffled. Statistics would indicate that as many mice as I've had and replaced over the past six months, some of them would have chosen to "get jiggy" with each other.
3. I now have a female that is listing to the left. She looks and acts healthy, but does everything tilted to her left. She's been this way about 2 weeks. Ever heard of this?

I'm open for suggestions. I don't want to continue to buy feeders from the closest pet store (30 miles) since it is a nasty little place ran buy a nasty little man and costs a pretty little penny. The snake (Abercrombie) keeps shedding and is now eating fuzzies (which are $2.50) or when other pet stores (45 miles) don't have fuzzies, 3-5 pinkies a week. I really need to get these mice to stay alive and breed. Thanks for the help!
MarcyM

[arandani]

What sort of substrate are the mice on?
What size cage are they in?
When you bought the mice, did you choose them or did the pet store/petting zoo people? They may have given you sick animals. If you saw them, where they displaying any unusual behaviors-look sick, slow, inactive?
Another cause for illness is nutriton. I feed my mice wild bird seed mix, mixed with small animal alfalfa pellets, oat meal, bread crusts, peanuts, and fresh veggies 2X daily. This ensures that they get a balanced diet.
Also they recieve fresh clean--chlorine free-water, have an under tank heater to keep them warm in winter, air conditoned room for summer, wheel for excersize, hides, and cages are cleaned weekly. All my animals are on aspen bedding only, and any animal displaying illness are promptly isolated/euthanized depending on symptoms.
I have observed that females who breed more than two- three times a season (in the spring, or fall) become somewhat 'sterile' or 'sickly'.. So my advise to you is too keep the males seperate from the females for a few months before introducing them. This allows your girls to have a break.
It is not unusual for a female to eat her first littler if she is not experienced as a breeder. To ensure that you get viable offspring buy older females who have produced before to keep with new mothers. They will teach your girls how to be moms. If this opption is unavailable to you, try to get a male from a store or someone else who has snakes and breeds feeders-- if they are experienced dads they will also help.

As for the diseases..yes they are contagious. Sanitize all water bottles, cages, bowls, ect. with a bleach/water solution to prevent further deaths amongst potentially healthy animls.... Be patient, mice are a lot more difficult than rats to propigate as they are more delicate.

good luck.

[marcym]

I think the bedding is Pine. They are in a 10 gallon tank. Each time I replaced a mouse, I chose it and it looked fine to me. Then again, my knowledge of mice is limited to what I have picked up reading info on the internet. No problems till they've been home for awhile, which leads me to believe it's MY problem, not the pet stores.
MarcyM

[Taceas]

Well lets see here..

Most of my older breeders will get scruffy looking and hunched back when they've reached the end of their life expectancy. And sometimes disease may cause it to accelerate. For some reason they seem to exhibit it even when they're sick from another cause.

Some of my mice may take a full 2 months before they'll breed after I've added in a new member, males especially. Adding in new males to an all female crowd comes with risks. Risks that are lessened by thoroughly cleaning everything before adding him in to get them all distracted with the clean cage and they really don't notice him till later. New males will also kill any babies present that aren't his, fact of life he wants the female to go into estrus again so he can have his own genes fathered.

I would say your diet is leaving quite a bit lacking as far as nutrition. And that could be the culprit as to why you've not gotten many litters, aside from the new housemate deal. Sunflower seeds fed in excess can be a very bad thing. It'd be like eating 15 candybars a day, for you. They do have trace minerals, some protein and a LOT of fat which can lead to unhealthy mice. I'd say leave the sunflower seeds for treats only. Cracked corn as well usually lacks the nutritional part of the kernel, the germ. And without that, all you're doing is feeding them is empty carbs and sugars.

When you were pregnant with your daughter, I'm sure you ate well and took multivitamins. The same should also apply for mice, however smaller they have the same dietary needs. I feed all of my mice lab blocks which they gnaw on. It has vitamins and minerals and protein. I suppliment their diet with a huge box of Wheaties that I pick up from Sam's Club. They get a small handful each week after cage cleaning and thats it. Lab blocks are available from most pet stores for $6 or so a bag. I believe Kaytee makes the one most readily available.

Another thing with continually adding in new members to the colony, and from different stores is that it can invite disease. Mice and rats all have a bacterium called Mycobacilius. It's a nasty little thing and can cause quite a bit of sniffling, snorting, and death in weaker immune-systemed idividuals. It's highly contagious and it's present at all times. However, different stores may have different strains of Myco. And when you mix and match the different strains, what one healthy mouse was resistant to, it wasn't resistant to the new mouse's strain and vice versa and they both croak. If you've ever noticed any sniffling, sneezing, wheezing that may be your culprit right there. Plus, sick mice don't breed...period. And if you're housing on pine, which around here I can't find a pine brand that isn't super dusty, that may just be exacerbating the issue as well. Mice are sensitive to dusts and when you live in a dusty home it can wreak havoc on your body. Pine and cedar contains volatile oils that can be harmful to your animals' health. I'd say try to find something like Aspen, Carefresh, or some less dusty litter.

One point I do have to make is, most of us who breed our own snake food do so for the cost effectiveness of it when we have multiple snakes AND for the fact we like to know the feeders are healthy, well cared for, and died humanely. If you're trying to get through this as cheap as possible, then I think you have the wrong goals in mind, personally. If you skimp on your mouse food/bedding then the mice are going to be piss-poor quality, and so will your snake because it's not getting the nutrition it needs to be getting. Well fed animals make great feeder animals, I sure as heck don't want to eat an emaciated chicken or an overly flabby one. Treat the mice as your daughter's other pets and you might have better results as far as breeding goes.

Which leads me to another point, breeding your own mice for one snake may work, but personally it would be more of a hassle than its worth. Usually my cut off point for recommending breeding your own mice would be 5+ snakes. Mice breed a LOT, and if you can't kill and store the babies for a later use in the freezer, then you've got a LOT of mice you can't use. See my point? One mouse gives birth to 10+ babies, and your snake can only eat one of those from the appropriate size per week. Well mice grow quick, and what was fuzzies one week is now hoppers eating solid food and breeding to make more mice. The very least you could do is either knock that 1:3 back to a 1:1 and freeze off the extra babies..or just buy your food in bulk.

Which brings me to yet another point. Why breed mice if you can't cull them? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but feeding your snake live pinks-fuzzies is one thing. But anything beyond that, has the potential to bite the snake. I wouldn't leave it to the snake to kill it's own food if the mouse has teeth with which to bite. Bites can quickly lead to infection. And if you can't at least knock hopper to adult mice out before feeding them, perhaps mice breeding isn't for you considering your run of bad luck thus far. My younger snakes get live pinks to fuzzies, but once the mice open their eyes and have teeth I pre-kill anything before it meets my snakes. I like to err on the side of safety.

And if you're such the penny-pincher that you say and paying $2 something for a pinky (which is nuts, btw) there are cheaper alternatives in which the mice are already dead you just have to heat them up prior to feeding them AND they're considerably cheaper. How would you say to paying 30 cents for a pinky when all you have to do is warm it up in a cup of warm water for 10-15 mins and then feeding your snake? And with such a method you can buy them in bulk, which is even cheaper and you always have food in your freezer ready to go. No driving to get snake food and paying high insane prices.

If you go to Big Cheese Rodent Factory, Rodent Pro, The Mouse Factory or any number of other bulk-frozen mice places..you're going to find a hell of a lot better prices. I personally like Big Cheese because they let you mix and match more than the others. Having one snake and being required to order 100 fuzzies is a pain, because many won't ever be used. Just explain to them what you've got and what you'd like and they will usually be accomodating to you. I'd say you could use 25 fuzzies and 25 hoppers on an order as it stands right now. And they ship them to your door Next Day Air or Second Day with dry-ice. They also come vacuum packed, so it lessens the spoilage of the mice and keeps them alternately away from human food in the freezer.

Research the links below, contact them and see what they can do for you. Chad at BCRF is a dear and is very helpful.

http://www.bigcheeserodents.com/ - Vacuum packs

http://www.themousefactory.com/ - Vacuum packs

http://www.rodentpro.com/ - Doesn't vacuum pack

Anyway, I've gone and typed out another durn novel. So I hope I haven't baraged you completely and that you get this sorted out. =)

[marcym]

Thanks for all the information. I do have to say the food and bedding issues are from my ignorance, not because I was trying mistreat them in any way. We have 8 hermit crabs, 4 mice, 1 snake, 3 dogs, 12 cats, 9 goats, 21 sheep, 10 Canadian geese, a ond full of koi and a husband that works on a 600 head dairy farm. We would never intentionally mistreat any animal. As a matter of fact, I took on the "mouse house project" partially because I enjoy animals so much and saw it as a new challenge. The other part was of course the trip to town for expensive pinkies.

I'm going to town tomorrow to buy snake food and will get lab blocks and different bedding. Hopefully that will help with the diet and dust.

You do bring up a valid point asking about what I will do with all the extras if I won't cull them. So far, I certainly haven't had to deal with that issue! If I do, the petting zoo has said they always need them to feed their snakes, so they will take any extras.

If I could get Abercrombie to eat frozen, thawed and warmed mice, I'd jump on that bandwagon. We tried that when we first got him and had to feed him a live pinky. Daughter decided she couldn't do it, so that's when the job fell to me. I tried the frozen, thinking that I wouldn't have to listen to the little squeeks. I swear, the snake turned his nose up at them each time I tried! Since he won't lower his standards and eat "TV dinners", I'm going to give this a try for a couple of more months. Until then, I'll continue driving to town once a week to buy him mice.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. It is appreciated!
Marcy M

[dberes]

You forgot one extra cost! You forgot the car gas bill for driving 30 miles to the pet store and 30 miles back (unless its 15 & 15). That $2.25 pinky is really like $7 or $8 or more. Anyways...

Later,
Drenton

[marcym]

Nope, certainly didn't forget the gas prices while making a 60 mile round trip to town just to buy pinkies. Unfortunately, our feed man laughed when I asked if he had access to pinkies. He said he worked at a grain store, of course he did, but I declined on his offer to search under the pallets for pinkies! If I wanted to feed the snake wild mice, I have 9 barns that I could be finding hundreds of them in.

After changing bedding and diet, it looks like I might actually have 1 that is preggers. Time will tell, and you can bet I'll pull a couple out right away and feed Abercrombie before they get their little heads bit off!

Thanks again for all the advice.

MarcyM

[Sasheena]

I remember when I started with mice. It was such a SLOW LONG process.... I had 1.2 mice that the kids named. (Sara, Mavra, and Onion) with the promise that THEY would never be fed to a snake. I eventually added a couple other mice in hopes they would get to breeding. Finally the babies started coming. Now, three years later, I have 35 mouse cages (if you don't count the "male weaners" and the "female weaners" and the "black eyed white experimental mouse cage") It takes a while to figure out the correct combination, and it takes experience to notice if the hunch-backed look is due to malnutrition, dehydration, or disease. I am constantly modifying how I do things. Recently my favorite food for my mice (Adult Dog Food by Grrreat Choice) was "redesigned" by the manufacturer. The mice now hate it. So I had to fall back on one of my alternative dog foods that appears to have been redesigned to be exactly what my mice like anyway. It's summer and I'm lucky if i have six litters of baby mice at any one time out of 35 cages, since it's a bit too hot for the mice to successfully breed. Just enough pinkies to make sure that I have some for the baby snakes, and that's about it.

Best thing to do when trying to raise mice is to come to a place like this, read everything, try everything that is feasible for YOU, and KEEP all the ideas that work for YOU. Understand that there will never be 100% consensus in this or any mouse raising forum as to the PERFECT way to raise mice. That is why you have to take what you learn here and figure out for yourself which tidbits of help will help you.

I do agree however, that getting lab blocks for your mice is a good step in the right direction. You might also see what the mice think of the dog food you give your dogs. (unless it's Alpo, which killed a lot of mice off)... I find that a nice cheap dogfood often works well for the mice. I supplement with a scoop of a special blend once a week... in that blend are corn, oats, barley and a pinch of black oil sunflower seeds. IN general my mice make it six months and are still very beautiful and healthy and ready to keep on producing, but that's usually the end of the line and time to be on the chow wagon for the adult snakes. I never EVER remove the males, if the male in a thriving colony dies, I put them down on the "to be fed off" row of my rack, and let them raise up any babies, and have any impending babies, and then they get fed off. Mice only have about six months of production, if you pull the male and replace him, you won't get very many litters out of one mouse in her lifetime.

Good luck, and again, don't hesitate to ask questions.