Mouse identification :D Mouse geeks come in...

[DdotSpot]

Ok, I've got this male:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_0008.jpg

And I'm wondering if there's an official name for his coloring. He has ruby eyes(not pink) and a silver/gray coat. A friend and I were talking and she mentioned that it seemed like this was a sex-linked trait. Does anyone have any intell. on these guys? He's got beautiful coloring and I'd sure like to get a few females like him. Any input would be great!


A few more pictures....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_0006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_0002.jpg

[Traci1]

cute mice! I have a female that looks a lot like that, she has a beige colored tummy as well. I bred her to a black male with a beige tummy and two of the babies look just like him, one looks just like her, and two are black eyed white mice with some black markings on their heads.

i'm not sure what the official name is for that color though.

[DdotSpot]

My friend thought that they might be called "Dove". But I just went to check on his belly and its the EXACT same color as the top of his coat.

[pcar]

I have a couple of males like that. I also have a male is is a beige color all over with ruby eyes. Thought they were interesting, so they got saved from the snake food pile.

[JM :o)]

He's a Mus Musculus~ and so are the other two mice in there!

Seriously~ I don't know the name for his coat color~ I breed for color in my colonies, but I don't know many of the names. I *think* that might be "Fawn"~ but I really don't know.

E-mail the user "Sasheena" and ask. She always seems to know mouse genes.

[Willow771]

Id say Buff or Fawn. both are genetic and specific to the eye color as well. although looking closer at the fur, if you notice the color change slightly closer to the skin to a darker color ...then id be tempted to say a "blue agouti"

Agouti is trait that as the fur grows further out of the skin the pigment at the tips changes color. some variations are cinnamon Agouti (a beautiful reddish brown) Silver agouti (another possible for yours) fawn agouti (a pale warm tan color with brown undertones) and more.

if you are fond of that color it is a dominant gene (atleast thats what i have found)

[mrweaw]

An easy way to identify Agouti is to blow into the fur. Agouti animals will show 3 distinct rings of color.

[Sasheena]

He doesn't look at all Buff or Fawn to me. :) He does look Dove or Lilac (depending) ...

I have a mouse genetics web page here: http://www.geocities.com/mousedomousery/genetics/genetics.html that you might (or might not) find interesting.

The Dove mouse (a name that is used interchangeably with Lilac depending on if you're going by American or European standards) is a "red-eyed dilute of a black mouse).... basically the red eyes dilute the black coat color and make it look a pretty silver gray color. The Lilac mouse is a blue/brown combo mouse with black eyes.

Mouse genetics seemed simple when I first started breeding them... lots of genes to remember, but pretty cut and dried. But my own mouse colonies continue to defy anything/everything I ever read about it and I got kind of tired of it.

He's a cutie, that's the bottom line. I'm sure he'll taste the same to the snakeys.

I have a great new anomaly in my mouse collection... a mouse born with only one ear.

[sdmessmer]

Are you going to breed the one eared mouse? It would be interesting to find out what happens one or two generations down the road, and if there are any abnormalities from it.

[Sasheena]

Yes, I will try to breed the one-eared mouse... will probably keep her with all her female siblings and one of her male siblings... quickest way to find out if it's genetic. But she doesn't seem very robust, so I wouldn't be surprised if she won't live that long.

I've had some interesting genetic experiments in my colonies. I had some mice born with curly tails... that went well for three generations, but then AC disaster (I'm queen of those) and all but one of the curlies were killed... and then he jumped out of my hands while cage cleaning and the "yard cats" JOB is to hang out and keep me company and mop up any "mouse spills"... so they got the mouse before I could recover him. (oops)... I had one whole litter of four brother mice all born with funky ears (blue mice, which traditionally have small/strange ears genetically linked to them).... two barely made it into adulthood before dying, one fathered two litters before dying and the other appeared to be sterile. The babies were sickly and died. The anomalies like this usually end up being dead ends, but I always work with them until they prove themselves out or die out.

The funniest thing I've had ever since my first litter of baby mice.... black-eyed-white mice... they're supposed to be relatively rare, aren't supposed to breed true, etc. I get one to four BEW mice in EVERY litter of mice. Approximately 25% of my collection is black eyed white! Lately I decided to breed the BEW and see if I could get them to breed true or with a higher percentage. I like BEW...they're cute. :)

My most successful breeders are usually a pale cream color with a darker beige/brown color on the back and a creamy white tummy. They get huge, have large robust litters (fuzzies the size of large hoppers), and always do very well with little to no cannabalism.

[CornCrazy]

That is too funny! I told Daniel that I didn't know mouse genetics, but that I always call my mice which are that color "Dove." (Only because it reminds me of the color of a Dove.)

I personally have only gotten males that color, thus the statement about it possibly being a sex-link trait. Sasheena...do you know if it is?

[Sasheena]

There ARE sex linked traits but Dove is NOT one of them. If I remember correctly there is an english brindle (or was it tricolor?) that is sex-linked kind of like our calico cats ... only females.

[DdotSpot]

Great info Sash, thanks! I just hope this trait will be passed on with his babies...we'll see :D

[CornCrazy]

There ARE sex linked traits but Dove is NOT one of them. If I remember correctly there is an english brindle (or was it tricolor?) that is sex-linked kind of like our calico cats ... only females.Cool! That's promising! I guess so far I've just been unlucky and only gotten males.

[Sasheena]

If I had a Dove colored male and I wanted to preserve the color (or if it was lilac) I would breed to black mice or blue or brown ones.... If the eyes are closer to black than to pink, I would suggest it's lilac, which means a combination of blue and brown and black. They're basically "triple homozygotes" with three recessive genes b/b (for brown) d/d (for blue) and a/a (for black). If you bred a lilac to a black mouse, you would learn pretty quickly if it was recessive for blue or brown or both. If it was recessive for blue and brown, you would get black, brown, blue, and lilac offspring.

[bonzor]

that colour is called dove and you should get babys like him.

[Sasheena]

As I mentioned before... One set of mouse color standards calls the two mice with that color (but different eye colors) Dove and Lilac, the other standard has them switched. So yes, it's a dove...

So is it a dove that is a/a p/p (black with the pink eye dilute) or is it a dove that is a/a b/b d/d (black/blue/brown dilute with black or very dark ruby eyes due to the brown dilute)?

I've found that sometimes it's impossible to know without a lot of test breeding. If you want more, then breed the father back to the daughters, you'll get more. :)

[DdotSpot]

It *sounds* like he might be the triple homozygous black/brown/blue with very dark ruby eyes. His eyes are near black. You can see the 2 girls with him. Any ideas what they might throw just by looking at their coloring? This will be their first time breeding with this male. The black and white female mothered the brown and white girl.

Thanks again Sash, you got any good mouse genetic recommendation books?

[Sasheena]

The two mice with him appear to be a broken marked black mouse and a broken marked fawn.

If your mouse is a/a b/b d/d, then you will learn very quickly if your other mice have certain recessive traits.

The fawn could be one of two a-locus combinations (there are a few other possibilities, but those are more rare, so we'll assume for the moment she's not those other genes)... if she is A(y)/a then about half of the babies will be yellow and half will be a solid color. If she is recessive for b (brown) or d (blue) then you would expect about half of the remaining offspring to demonstrate these characteristics. So you would get out of 8 babies... 4 who are yellow, a black, a brown, a blue and a dove (daddy's color). Approximately. (don't feel like doing all those punnet squares and figuring out percentages).

The other possibility is that the fawn colored one is actually A(y)/A(y) which would mean that all her babies will be yellow. (depending on the presence or not of albino in both parents as a hidden recessive, which will supercede yellow)

Both females will demonstrate if your male is recessive for the broken marked trait. If he is you would expect roughly half of the babies to be broken marked (cow mice). The black broken marked female will also demonstrate her own recessive genes. If she is NOT recessive for blue or brown, then you would expect all her babies to be black. (again, this is assuming that both parents aren't recessive for albino, which does happen). If she carries the "blue gene" then you'll get some blue babies, and if she carries the "brown gene" you'll get blue, brown, and dove colored babies.

As far as good mouse genetics books, that book really isn't written... there's one available at jax website, but it's highly scientific. I printed it up and have a copy by binding up what is available on the website, but it's really very very technical. If hubby didn't have a master's degree in genetics, and I didn't have a degree in statistics, I don't think I would find it even slightly intelligible. I myself wrote my own genetics website based on the dilution and simplification of the genetics information available on the Jax website.

[Guenhwyvar]

Well...fast forward a couple of weeks and here are some babies. The female had a patheticly small 2 mouse litter. But we did get a bit of variety.

Here are the 2 babies.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1568.jpg


Here's the brown baby off by itself. It looks to be the same color as the other brown girl that I have with the male. But it was mothered by the black and white female.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1567.jpg

[DdotSpot]

Ok, so my secret alter-ego accidently comes out... :o

ANYWHO... :sidestep:

[CornCrazy]

AWWW...aren't they cute! Hopefully the next litter will be better for you! I have a tank with about 25 or so babies in it! I can't wait until they all start growing hair so I can get a cute picture! My colonies had completely quit producing over the winter and I started all over again a few weeks ago. These are the first litters from my new colonies. I have almost all fancy mice now so I expect quite a bit of variety!

[CornCrazy]

Ok, so my secret alter-ego accidently comes out... :o

ANYWHO... :sidestep:If you hadn't said anything, I bet not many people would have noticed :D We kept your alter-ego hidden for a while, though!

[DdotSpot]

So...it LOOKS like my male MUST be het for Fawn and the broken pattern trait. I wish there was a bigger litter than just 2. I'm also hoping for the brown baby to be female so I can breed it back to daddy.

*crosses fingers*

[DdotSpot]

Ok this post is two-fold. First question for you Sash...Now here is a picture with the mom(black and white) and the other mom(fawn and white-which is also daughter to black and white mom, but diff dads). Is the little brown baby a totally different color than fawn? Or will it darken up and turn more orangey as it gets older?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1687.jpg


Second question, anyone experts in mice parts? I know this picture is blurry, but can anyone tell if its a male or female? Both of the babies look identical underneath.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1690.jpg

[Sasheena]

The papa mouse must be a very gray looking fawn then, since Fawn is a DOMINANT trait, if he's het for it (has to be if he gets a black offspring too). So even though he looks like dove or lilac, he's definately a fawn mouse himself.

[Sasheena]

I think the baby will be a light gray/tan color just as it is as a baby...

As far as the genitalia of the little baby..... I think it's a male, but couldn't tell because it's a bit blurry... I emphasized the parts that made me t hink it's a male in the picture attached to this.... the little anus is colored black.... and there's a big space and then there's the "pokey thing" (both male babies and female babies have a pokey thing, males are ever-so-slightly bigger).... the pokey thing is quite removed from the anus.

On females there's only maybe half this distance. So they look like an upside down exclamation point... with the pokey thing almost connected to and touching the anus.

I have a page that talks about sexing mice.... http://www.geocities.com/mousedomousery/genders.html

[DdotSpot]

UPDATE...ok a few days ago Fawn mamma had 5 babies(Her first litter). and then I looked in there yesterday and I saw this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1863copy.jpg


I guess the black and white momma was also ready to have babies as well. So far, I THINK that the babies with the red arrows are from Fawn momma, but its getting really hard to tell. Can't wait till the fur comes in!

[CornCrazy]

Baby mice are SO cute! I love looking at them! I can't wait to see pictures of them after they are covered with fur.

[DdotSpot]

Thanks. Oh and btw, I culled out those other two in the last litter because they ended up being both males :S Hopefully we'l have better luck with this combined litter.

[DdotSpot]

Oh wow, I am SO SO happy with the crazy variety within these babies. Sasheena, I would love your expert opinion. My favorite is the dark silver one. But it seems like there's some 'hypo' type gene in there...

As you can see there is a Dark Grey mouse and a light grey(that white looking one I think is actually a very faint grey). There is a dark brown and a light brown(wild type?) There is a dark fawn and a light fawn. Is there hypo genes that work like this? I'm just really pleased....so strange that such a variety can be within this one batch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2013.jpg
----
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2012.jpg

[mrweaw]

Very nice clutch...er litter :p I love that dark grey one! I actually enjoy raising mice now that I have a variety of colors. I hated it when all I could get was white. They sure are cuties!

[CornCrazy]

Daniel...I've been promising you some pics of some of my mice. I am sorry it took so long (and that these are horrible pics)! I will try to get some better ones tomorrow. The last picture is one of the adult males.

[Sasheena]

Okay, I've numbered them.

#1 and #2 are broken marked fawn mice
#3, and #9 and the baby yellow without a number are also fawn or brindle.
#4, #5, #6, and #7 appear to all be black mice...when the fur is still coming in it looks dark gray, but they look black to me.

#8 looks like a beautiful Dove/Lilac

#10 (if it has pink eyes) looks like it might be a broken marked silver or dove. Hard to say, cute though. Maybe chinchilla, but I'm not sure about that.

#11 might be broken marked black.

That's my "professional" diagnosis. The variable amount of yellow just depends on hundreds (or one or two?) of different modifier genes that help determine the shade of yellow. I have a lot of litters very similiar to this, with the yellows everywhere from the pale yellow to the burnt sienna. Also, yellow is only barely affected by certain dilution genes. In the presence of other dilution genes you can get a Black Eyed White mouse.

:)

[Sasheena]

forgot the picture.

[CornCrazy]

Sasheena,

What are the fawn colored one with ruby eyes called? Also, I have some that I call butterscotch (don't know what they are really called but they remind me of butterscotch) that have red eyes, too. Do you know what they are?

[DdotSpot]

Well...HERE we go...batch #2...

This is 3 weeks later :) New babies from the same pairing...I did get more this time which is a plus!

There's one of the mama's poking her head in the picture.
I got a COUPLE of the Dove/Lilacs in this batch and even a
couple broken marked ones as well(of which I am pleased)
Now, I'm interested in what that chocolate looking one is
up there at the top squished underneath the blackie....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_2319.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2319.jpg)


This one shows my FIRST Dove/Lilac girl from my other
breeding(#8 in post 35).
She is getting big and very helpful with the little ones. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_2322.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2322.jpg)

[DdotSpot]

Oh...and a picture just for fun :D (one of the black females from post #31)

Peek-a-boo...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2313.jpg

[DdotSpot]

I got a better picture this morning when I cleaned out the cage....

There are 16 total remaining and there looks to be a pink-eyed Dove in there that I'm betting will look just like dad(up toward the top)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2327.jpg

[D|ssey]

aaaw, how can u bring urselves to kill such cuties..? *sigh* lol

[daufoi]

if you want info on the mouse in the original post, go here:

http://jaxmice.jax.org/jaxmice-cgi/jaxmicedb.cgi?objtype=pricedetail&stock=000690

(they come in two types, albino and grey)

[Sasheena]

Those are nice mice, in that link, but neither of them will produce a fawn offspring from a black mouse. The only way you can get that is if the animal is some sort of fawn A(y) or A(vy)... it can't be A(w)/A(w) or you would get a whole different result. Also if it was a c(ch)/c you usually get a chinchilla look or c/c is albino, but while c(ch)/c seems possible, you would get an agouti blend of colors from white to dark grey when blowing the fur against the grain, and I can't remember, but I think I asked if there was any change in the color of the mouse if you blow on the fur, and the result was that you get an animal with solid color shafts of hair.

It's an interesting enigma. There are so many color genes that are out there, and only some of them are categorized in popular mouse breeding circles.

Jeeze, I haven't been to a Jax webpage in so long. Glad I still have all the references in my head. Great stuff at that webpage.

[daufoi]

I wasn't trying to produce anything. The original post asked for name and info on the mouse in the pic. strain name is 129P (although this may be different among commercial breeders) and the info is on the link.

[DdotSpot]

I wasn't trying to produce anything. The original post asked for name and info on the mouse in the pic. strain name is 129P (although this may be different among commercial breeders) and the info is on the link.


I think what Sash was trying to say is that mine cannot be "129P" because he produced fawn offspring...correct? I am so very confused as to mouse genetics, but all the baby mice you see in this thread are fathered by this guy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_0008.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_0008.jpg)

I also noticed, Sash, that only the (grey fur w/pink eyes) are called dove...is there a diff name for (grey fur w/black eyes)?

[Sasheena]

Correct, the gray male mouse cannot be a 129P mouse because it is not a white-bellied animal (A(W)/A(W)) and it is producing Fawn offspring. Therefore it cannot be that mouse. I'm talking strictly genetics here. Although it could be c(ch)/c(ch) ... I'm not sure what the result would be with a mouse with that color combo and A(y) or A(vy) at the A-locus. (which this mouse must have!)

As far as gray with black eyes, in europe this is sometimes called Lilac or dove, and in United states it's the other way around.... pink eyed gray is either lilac or dove, black eyed gray is the opposite, again depending on country.

While the 129P mice seem interesting, they are anomalous in that they are pink eyed, regardless of being albino or not, which is an interesting combination as the albino locus and the pink eyed locus are linked... most mice that are albino do not carry the pink-eyed gene. (which seems ironic, but the pink eyes they have is due to the albino gene). So at Jax they must have produced some "crossover" mice and then bred specifically for that trait.

DOES this gray mouse have a white tummy? That is a way of telling if I'm all messed up in my belief that he's NOT A(w).

[DdotSpot]

Oh! After reading through these posts again, I noticed the term 'Lilac' for black-eyed. Now, the black-eyed mice seem to be CONSIDERABLY darker than the red-eyed.

This is a picture of Dad(light solid grey...almost looks brown), Daughter(dark grey, black eyes), Son(pink eyes, light grey & broken-marked)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_2376.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2376.jpg)

A couple others...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_2378.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2378.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/th_IMG_2374.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_2374.jpg)

EDIT: Sorry, I started writing this message several hours ago, and got side-tracked at home with company, and posted it before getting a chance to read your reply. The little grey girl does NOT have a white belly, neither does dad. They both have the same color belly as the top of their bodies.

[DdotSpot]

The interesting thing about dad is that his eyes are NOT pink like his offsprings'. His eyes are an in-between pink and black. He also is not completely light grey or completely dark grey, he's kind of an in-between. As he is getting older, his grey color is kind of turning a little tinge of brown...BUT it is still grey.

[Sasheena]

Those pictures you posted help a lot. This is what I think, gene by gene, of your dad mouse:

Your dad mouse is A(y)/a or A(vy)/a. The A(y) or A(vy) produce the fawn/yellow look, even though your dad mouse is NOT yellow in appearance. the little "a" means he can father black, blue, light gray colored offspring.

In addition I would say it is very likely he is also b/b which is the brown dilution and which can render black eyes into a ruby brown type color. Doesn't always, but it can. This would also account for the brown tint you noted.

I would venture that he is probably c(ch)/c(ch) or c(ch)/c the c(ch) is like a "hypo" gene in snakes, it dilutes the dark colors and renders the yellow into white. This would result in a mouse with no yellow on the individual hairs.

That dark gray one is a "Blue" mouse, which means papa is either D/d or d/d ... I'd venture to say, since he appears to be a lilac mouse, that he is actually d/d... in other words, if it wasn't for his fawn gene at the A-locus, he would be a true lilac mouse. So in essence he is a lilac fawn.

if ALL of his offspring when crossed to a pink-eyed non-albino female are pink eyed, then he is also p/p (pink eyed)... if roughly half are pink-eyed when crossed to a non-albino pink-eyed mouse, then he is P/p... since not all his babies are pink eyed, I'm guessing that he is P/p and the recessive pink eyed gene could be slightly affecting his eye color also.

And since I'm at it... since he had broken marked babies, he's also S/s which means he's het for piebald.

The little gray broken marked there, if it has pink eyes, I would suggest that is a true "Dove" mouse, which is the same as a pink-eyed black mouse.

The lack of white or light colored tummies rules out the mouse being 129P though it was a good call and might have been that mouse if we didn't know all the additional information about the babies.

I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a yellow mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

The way to test this final theory? If you have two of his black offspring, (or black broken marked) of opposite genders, breed them together. If you get yellow babies, it's recessive yellow. (why didn't I think of this before?)

In any case, I don't really think it's recessive yellow, as those have very clear yellow babies, none of this dark umbrous look like some of your babies have)

I just have woken up really sharp this morning! :)

[Sasheena]

I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a black mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

I meant to say the above correction instead of what I said.

[DdotSpot]

Ok, wow Sash...impressive! I had to read that post a few times....

Ok, since the Mother of these babies is a broken-marked black mouse(with black eyes) Does that mean that she will HAVE to be het for all these traits as well?

This just all seems very crazy that they could BOTH be het for the same traits...I mean, they were picked up at DIFFERENT pet stores.....

Unless of course there's just A LOT of codom. traits in mice... I'm thoroughly confused...Would you say that my male is a rare deal? And would you have a recommendation on which colored babies to breed back to each other for a new combo? LOL craziness I tell you! Crazy!

Thanks a ton for your wonderful responses! And yes the Broken-marked that I posted pics of has pink eyes.

[CornCrazy]

I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a yellow mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

The way to test this final theory? If you have two of his black offspring, (or black broken marked) of opposite genders, breed them together. If you get yellow babies, it's recessive yellow. (why didn't I think of this before?) I think that is what I have, Sasheena! I get these gorgeous yellow babies from mine...even the dark ones. I've got to try to get some pics of them. I've never had one that was obese, either.
EDIT
I just looked at the bellies of my dove or lilac mice and the bellies are white and yellow/tan. I am going to get pics sometime in the next couple of days! I've got quite a bit of variety! I am really starting to wonder about the genetics, too. It seems a bit confusing to me...

[Sasheena]

Ok, since the Mother of these babies is a broken-marked black mouse(with black eyes) Does that mean that she will HAVE to be het for all these traits as well?

Well, she MUST BE P/p (recessive for pink eyes), and D/d (recessive for blue)... IF the yellow mice are recessive yellow instead of fawn, then both momma and daddy have to be E/e (recessive for yellow).

This just all seems very crazy that they could BOTH be het for the same traits...I mean, they were picked up at DIFFERENT pet stores.....
It's not that remarkable, really, aside from the recessive yellow, which is still relatively rare. I had this one mouse... his name was Torpedo, I saw him in the petstore several times over a two or three month period, coveted him, then finally bought him. One of the best purchases in my mouse purchasing days! In the end he was a sanded banded black self mouse. He carried blue, and brown and recessive yellow and long haired and curly haired and pink eyed recessives. So he was triple homozygous, and 6-trait heterozygous in addition. Oh yeah, and he was recessive for a head spot and also for piebald. Two other traits. He was remarkable. Here's his webpage I made for him (a long time ago) but this was before I got so many cool results and discovered the rest of his great genetics:

http://www.geocities.com/isophecles/mice/torpedo.html

If I was to list his genetics now (even though he's long since deceased) he would be the following:

a/a B/b C/c(ch) D/d E/e S/s hs/hs P/p W(sh)/w sa/sa LGH/lgh CA/ca

Unless of course there's just A LOT of codom. traits in mice... I'm thoroughly confused...Would you say that my male is a rare deal? And would you have a recommendation on which colored babies to breed back to each other for a new combo? LOL craziness I tell you! Crazy!

There are a LOT of traits in mice. I have a number of Mouse genetics papers on the website on which Torpedo's page is, and even more polished stuff on my normal website: http://www.geocities.com/mousedomousery If you wanted to learn about his genetics, I would take and cross some of the pure black babies. You will learn a LOT about those mice because you KNOW they are a/a and cannot have fawn, also they could be just chock full of recessive genes, crossing two blacks, or a black male and all the black females together will teach you a lot. I promise to analyze the genetics of those litters too if you want me to. :)

Thanks a ton for your wonderful responses! And yes the Broken-marked that I posted pics of has pink eyes.

You are quite welcome! I've enjoyed answering your questions. I was a bit rusty, but I'm getting it all back now as I have to scrounge through my data storage systems in my brain to retreive all this fun information. I even used the information today in my Geometry class. They were all so sleepy, I said, "We could always talk about genetics instead of geometry" ... only problem was the kids were wanting to talk genetics instead of geometry. Go figure.

[Sasheena]

I just looked at the bellies of my dove or lilac mice and the bellies are white and yellow/tan. I am going to get pics sometime in the next couple of days! I've got quite a bit of variety! I am really starting to wonder about the genetics, too. It seems a bit confusing to me...

You have (most likely) what my husband likes to refer to as "Shoe Mice"... mice that look like a shoe with a different colored "sole". There are two major genes that result in the look of a "shoe mouse" but the much more likely gene is the a(t) gene. The A(w) gene from the 129P mice is not frequently found in the "mouse fancy" (breeding of fancy mice) although I think it's more prevalent in europe and overseas than in the United States. The a(t) gene is similar to the "a" gene.... a mouse that is a/a is usually black unless they are recessive brown or blue also. One that is a/a(t) is a mouse that is black (or blue or brown) on the top of the body, but reverts to the wild type on the belly, so the recessive color is on the top of the mouse, the dominant wild-mouse color on the belly. Mice with the chinchilla gene c(ch) have all the yellow bleached out of the belly hairs, making them have a white belly. The ones with the tan bellies are called "Tan" mice and the ones with the white bellies are "Fox" mice. I love that look and have worked hard to maintain those in my collection. Eep, and that is the other gene that Torpedo had, he was not an a/a mouse, he was an a/a(t) mouse, he was a "shoe" mouse.

[DdotSpot]

If you wanted to learn about his genetics, I would take and cross some of the pure black babies. You will learn a LOT about those mice because you KNOW they are a/a and cannot have fawn, also they could be just chock full of recessive genes, crossing two blacks, or a black male and all the black females together will teach you a lot. I promise to analyze the genetics of those litters too if you want me to. :)

Wonderful deal! Thank you. My only problem is that I've been taking out the blacks first to feed them off because I didn't think they would probably throw any colors...
:rolleyes:

I think I have a couple left...Here's for hopin' its a pair! Oh geez! I think a bird just flew into my bedroom window..like the glass...

Yep, bird is dead...what an idiot. And what a shame...
Ok, sorry...that was just REALLY weird.

You have (most likely) what my husband likes to refer to as "Shoe Mice"... mice that look like a shoe with a different colored "sole". There are two major genes that result in the look of a "shoe mouse" but the much more likely gene is the a(t) gene. The A(w) gene from the 129P mice is not frequently found in the "mouse fancy" (breeding of fancy mice) although I think it's more prevalent in europe and overseas than in the United States. The a(t) gene is similar to the "a" gene.... a mouse that is a/a is usually black unless they are recessive brown or blue also. One that is a/a(t) is a mouse that is black (or blue or brown) on the top of the body, but reverts to the wild type on the belly, so the recessive color is on the top of the mouse, the dominant wild-mouse color on the belly. Mice with the chinchilla gene c(ch) have all the yellow bleached out of the belly hairs, making them have a white belly. The ones with the tan bellies are called "Tan" mice and the ones with the white bellies are "Fox" mice. I love that look and have worked hard to maintain those in my collection. Eep, and that is the other gene that Torpedo had, he was not an a/a mouse, he was an a/a(t) mouse, he was a "shoe" mouse.

I love the Tan looking mice. I've been wondering where I could find a Black Silk Tan mouse(tan belly). I saw a picture online...and now I'm really interested.

[Sasheena]

The strangest thing in breeding fancy colors of mice is that you ALWAYS want to have black mice around to test theories! They don't have to be solid black, they can be broken marked, but sometimes those are a little more difficult to identify colors on, because of all the white interspersed among the color.

Black mice are super cool because you know certain things about their genetics:

a/a (recessive black) B/* (not brown) C/* (not albino) D/* (Not blue) E/* (Not yellow) P/* (Not pink eyed)

You learn a LOT by the babies that the black mouse has.... what are its recessives, what are the recessives of the other mouse. It's great! :)

Anyway, gotta run. I think I'm outta brain cells and have to go chase the last one down before it gets away

[CornCrazy]

Finally got a few pictures of some of my breeders.

Here is a gorgeous yellow mouse. These guys have such a rich, color. I really like them!
http://premium1.uploadit.org/CornCrazy/WebPics/yellow-mouse.jpg

This picture shows one of my dove/lilac, a couple of broken marked yellows, and a broken marked black.
http://premium1.uploadit.org/CornCrazy/WebPics/mice.jpg

Another broken marked yellow, dove/lilac, and black.
http://premium1.uploadit.org/CornCrazy/WebPics/lilac-mouse.jpg

And a cute little brown and white girl
http://premium1.uploadit.org/CornCrazy/WebPics/brown-white-mouse.jpg

Finally, I had to include this picture because it is SO cute!
http://premium1.uploadit.org/CornCrazy/WebPics/mouse-nose.jpg

[Sasheena]

Cute meeces...

About the last picture... I used to keep coconuts with my mice... until I found one mouse had stuck her head through and effectively hanged herself! I found her before she perished and with the aid of vegetable oil got her out... but she died.

[magick-bears]

Ok this post is two-fold. First question for you Sash...Now here is a picture with the mom(black and white) and the other mom(fawn and white-which is also daughter to black and white mom, but diff dads). Is the little brown baby a totally different color than fawn? Or will it darken up and turn more orangey as it gets older?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/ddotspot/Mice/IMG_1687.jpg


Sorry to jump in here so late in the thread. However, the tanish colored baby is a Beige not a Fawn. The Beige gene is on the C loci and is a recessive extension gene so that baby would be c(e)c(e).

~Jeff C.

[magick-bears]

After reading the intire thread I am fairly certain that your male is a Dove (or Lilac if you prefer) het for Blue, Beige, and Recessive Yellow aa/B*/Cc(e)/Dd/Ee/pp. If he was A(y) or A(vy) then you would definitely see yellow/tan/red coloration as these are both dominant. In fact all Reds and Fawns created using the lethal yellow gene A(y) are A(y)a as A(y)A(y) is a lethal combination. I have personally raised all of the above colors on a show level in the past. I love Sasheena's genetic page. But if you would like another here is the link to my gentic page http://the-rodent-express.com/Genetics/

~Jeff C.

[magick-bears]

Terri,

I would say that those are Recessive Yellows ee and the pink eyed ones are Fawns ee/pp, produced with the ee gene. However the could also be "clean" Brindles A(vy)a. When you breed yellow to yellow do you get 100% yellow?

~Jeff C.

[CornCrazy]

Cute meeces...

About the last picture... I used to keep coconuts with my mice... until I found one mouse had stuck her head through and effectively hanged herself! I found her before she perished and with the aid of vegetable oil got her out... but she died.Thanks for the heads-up! I'll take the coconuts out. It's a shame, though. They really love them. Maybe I can find some that don't have the holes in them.

I would say that those are Recessive Yellows ee and the pink eyed ones are Fawns ee/pp, produced with the ee gene. However the could also be "clean" Brindles A(vy)a. When you breed yellow to yellow do you get 100% yellow?I honestly do not know. I've not separated any pairs out in order to test the genes. I am going to be filling up another rack soon so I thought I'd do that with it. I am going to start by separating out several babies of the same color and start the new colonies. I figure that would be better than stressing out the adults. Whenever I manage to get this done, I'll post my results.