What's the latest you've ever got a hatchling to feed?

[DavidM]

What's the latest you've ever got a hatchling to eat a f/t mouse for the first time? I've got a couple now that hatched four weeks ago and haven't eaten yet, although oddly enough they do seem to be growing. Either the yolk was good stuff, or they're partial to paper towels.

I'd be very interested to know how long people think it's worth persisting with them. Here in the UK my options are fairly limited, so we're trying tease feeding with various combinations - a normal pinkie, a brained one, or a washed one with a bit of lizard maker on it. We've induced both babies to strike at and hold the mouse a few times, but neither has yet gone on to feed.

My instinct is that these two are both now such vigorous looking snakes that they will eventually feed (the amel was originally a bit of a runt, but has grown). What do you think?

David

[colinmcc]

I had one go 3 months before I finally got it to take a feed.

In the end, I got it started on chick drumsticks (just the upper part of a day old chick leg) and moved it onto pinkies once it had had a few of those. I had to scent the pinkies initially but it did switch over eventually.

It was looking REALLY scrawny by the time it did start eating, but it was still fairly active.

[Jynx]

About 3 months. She was hatched by a friend of mine and he just couldn't get her to eat so he gave her to me and said "do what you can. If she eatsm you can keep her." Took her over to my house and let her just sit for about 4 days with a perfect light cycle, and as much water as her little heart desired. I offered food once and she took it no problem, and has been eating well ever since. she's also for sale too :)

[CornCrazy]

she's also for sale too :)I honestly do not think it was appropriate for you to put a "for sale" plug in here. As you well know, Rich has made this site where only contributors can post for sale ads. Due to the circumstances, Rich was very gracious when you posted your for sale ad. I am not trying to be mean, I just do not want to see that graciousness taken advantage of. Rich has stated that the only place non-contributor ads are appropriate is in the "wanted" section, but only in direct response to someone's want ad (i.e. - you should not say you have a butter for sale if the person is looking for a lavender).

[CornCrazy]

In response to the original question, I have also had them hold out for at least 3 months before feeding. If yours are striking at the food, then try the method outlined in the "new" Corn Snake Manual on page 72 (pictures on page 75).

Good luck!

[princess]

This 3 month figure is very reassuring for me as I still have 4 from my first clutch who are on a hunger strike after a whole month. All the others are eating like piggies though!

[Jynx]

wow Sheriff's everywhere. I'm sure DavidM doesn't even care.

Is there a full moon out or something in the water thats been giving everyone short fuses lately? Thanks for letting me know what you think is inappropriate.

[DavidM]

Hey - please keep spats off my thread! I interpreted Jynx's comment as "and I've even got to the point where I can sell her.." rather than a serious bid to sell.

What's the method on p72 of the new manual? As an owner of the original version I feel entitled to know, by pm if necessary :)

D

[Skye]

I had two that went 40 days, and then I caved in and fed them anoles, after having tried all the versions of pinkies and pinkie parts. They ate the anoles just fine and never looked back.

[DavidM]

I don't think I can get anoles in the UK, but Colin's day-old chick idea might be worth a try

[Jynx]

I interpreted Jynx's comment as "and I've even got to the point where I can sell her.." rather than a serious bid to sell.

Spat??? I see no spat :) That was pretty much my meaning behind that comment anyways. I'm just kind of suprised with the amount of toe-stepping thats been going on here lately. Seems everyone is looking for an excuse even me.

You are right David, that is what I meant. This hatchling was about 2 steps away from the freezer and everyone had given up hope on her. Not only has she been eating perfectly for 2 months, but she has started to gain mass and length quite rapidly, and I am in no way doubtful of her being able to continue a healthy life. Sometimes just being left alone completely will help alot. Since they are not acclimated to captivity, even though they were born in it, instinct often plays a much larger role than we can reverse. Sometimes we just have to let them be snakes.

[colinmcc]

I don't think I can get anoles in the UK, but Colin's day-old chick idea might be worth a try

I'd tried everything, pinkie-wise, with this one.

I phoned The Reptile Trust and it was them that suggested the chick leg. Get the chick, twist off the entire leg, twist off the claw part below the knee joint, peel back the skin and there you have it, one teeny-weeny chicken drumstick.

They did recommend getting it over to pinkies though, the drumsticks were just to get it started .... which it did.

Worth a bash .... :)

PS. You probably can get anoles, but just as pets. You'd need to breed them (unless you can find someone selling babies) to get anything small enough for a hatchling. Not really what you're after I don't think .....

[oldhand]

1 of my local reptile shops sells anoles, but thats only 1 of my 4 local shops 4. I can find out how much they are if you want? But the shipping might be a lot.

[CornCrazy]

Hey - please keep spats off my thread! I interpreted Jynx's comment as "and I've even got to the point where I can sell her.." rather than a serious bid to sell.

What's the method on p72 of the new manual? As an owner of the original version I feel entitled to know, by pm if necessary :)

DWe were not "spatting." There have just been quite a few people taking advantage of Rich's hospitality lately (not implying that's what you were intending, Jynx) and I thought I'd point it out. If people start getting by with little inadvertent "ads" like that, then everyone is going to start trying it and it's going to become a problem. I rarely point things like this out, but felt it needed to be addressed.

And I will contact Kathy to see if I can post that section from her book here. It may be the same technique that was in the first book, but I am not sure. If she says it is OK, then I will scan it in and post it here.

[CornCrazy]

Well, I wrote to Kathy and she said she does not own the rights to the book. She wrote it for BowTie. That being said, permission will have to be obtained from them. It may be easier if you just go buy the book. Sorry!

[Skye]

yes - the anoles were babies, adult anoles would be far too large. I had bred a few that I didn';t need and so they got put to a good use.

Have you tried a rats tail, or section thereof?

[DavidM]

might have a go with a rat's tail next, followed by a chicken. The parents are enjoying some fine rats at present, but could probably spare a chunk or two of tail.

The tease feed method recommended by Kathy in the original manual is to hold the animal in your fist and tap the bottom end of the snake with the mouse so it strikes. We've actually had more "success" - in terms of strikes - tapping them nearer the head, although we haven't yet had a good strike, hold and eat, obviously.

I'm quite tempted to order the new manual anyway, since it seems to have a lot of new material. And now we've cracked the problem of breeding at all, the genetics bits have that much more appeal....


David

[CornCrazy]

That's basically what the new manual says also. I typically do not hold the snake in my hand when tease feeding, although I do have some that do better that way. I usually leave the snake in its container and gently tap the sides if its neck (about 2-3 inches down from its head). I will tap the left, then right, etc. Then I'll tap the mouse on the snake's lower body some too. Usually I can elicit a feeding response that way. Some are just stubborn and will not eat regardless of what you try. Good luck with your little ones!

I do recommend that you order the new manual. It's a great book!

[Hope H]

I had a pair of Hypo Bloodreds that both refused. After 8 weeks the female finally ate by enticing her with a mouse tail. My male died on week 10. I also had a Opal female that was driving me crazy. Nothing worked for her. Then finally on week 10 she ate a pinky that I rubbed all over my little Crested Gecko's body. Ziggy the Gecko became my little snake saver.

[SnakeNutt]

We were not "spatting." There have just been quite a few people taking advantage of Rich's hospitality lately (not implying that's what you were intending, Jynx) and I thought I'd point it out. If people start getting by with little inadvertent "ads" like that, then everyone is going to start trying it and it's going to become a problem. I rarely point things like this out, but felt it needed to be addressed.


I agree with Terri, here. I too was a bit "jolted" by Jynx's last sentence in her first reply to DavidM's question, and I took it to be a serious "she's for sale if anyone is interested" comment, which was out of place in this thread. I'm not trying to start a spat, either, but I think Terri is right about keeping an eye out (Rich can't possibly read every single post in reply to every single thread) and politely telling people when they've possibly crossed a line.

[PssdffJay]

Spat??? I see no spat :) That was pretty much my meaning behind that comment anyways. I'm just kind of suprised with the amount of toe-stepping thats been going on here lately. Seems everyone is looking for an excuse even me.

You are right David, that is what I meant. This hatchling was about 2 steps away from the freezer and everyone had given up hope on her. Not only has she been eating perfectly for 2 months, but she has started to gain mass and length quite rapidly, and I am in no way doubtful of her being able to continue a healthy life. Sometimes just being left alone completely will help alot. Since they are not acclimated to captivity, even though they were born in it, instinct often plays a much larger role than we can reverse. Sometimes we just have to let them be snakes.

Off topic, but I am new to the scene and I have seen the word "freezer" used a couple of times and I was wondering the significance of it. I apologize that I don't have an answer to the original question as I just got my first snake on the 4th of July, but I hope someone will be able to explain it. I am trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks
Jay :cheers:

[DavidM]

freezing is an accepted way to euthanise snakes.

[Taceas]

Longest any of mine have gone is a week shy of 3 months. They can hold out an extremely long time if need be, for whatever reason they desire.

The best success I've ever had is with anole saliva. And its pretty easy to obtain in the UK provided you have pet anole's for sale. Just restrain the anole and offer a f/t pink for it to bite like the dickens. Usually that's enough of a scent to entice a stubborn corn to feed. No killing the anole at all.

This year I've made the point that I am not going to cater to fussy eaters. Most of the ones I got eating on anoles in the past few years have been lackluster feeders ever since. So when the other methods fail, I give them 2 shots on an anole bitten or anole oral swabbed pink and that's it. Kingsnake time.

I think we should be looking towards the future of the hobby rather than catering to snakes with such a finicky palate that don't belong in a captive pet trade. I mean, if dogs were still drooling for the occasional human meat, they wouldn't be around as much. ;)

[Jynx]

I absolutely agree Taceas. Even if you do finally get that finicky stubborn hatchling to eat, whats to say that it will not go on to produce problem feeders as well? (in general-that wasn't directed at you DavidM)

Some will eventually come around, but sometimes there's nothing you can do. Sometimes you have to let life (and natural selection) take its course, and move your attentions to another healthy boisterous animal.

[Jynx]

I agree with Terri, here. I too was a bit "jolted" by Jynx's last sentence in her first reply to DavidM's question, and I took it to be a serious "she's for sale if anyone is interested" comment, which was out of place in this thread. I'm not trying to start a spat, either, but I think Terri is right about keeping an eye out (Rich can't possibly read every single post in reply to every single thread) and politely telling people when they've possibly crossed a line.

Last time I checked, this thread was about helping another fellow herper with a problem feeder...

[DavidM]

I don't rule out giving up on these critters at some point, but I wonder whether anyone has any evidence to support the assumption that poor feeding will be hereditary? There could easily be environmental reasons why a particular hatchling is not feeding properly.

[Taceas]

Miami, Bloodred, and Butter lines have all proven to have a considerable portion of hatchlings to come out prefering a reptilian meal rather than a rodent one. Whether the areas their original founding stock came from has a higher percentage of wild anoles to rodents present, I'm not for sure as I don't live in Florida.

I think its great corns eat anoles in the wild, the anoles are abundant in certain locales of where corns are found. Something has to eat them. And its logical that some hatchlings would prefer them to rodents, and thus avoid a crash of the rodent population and lead to starvation of corns. Basically widening their scope.

But in captivity, anoles are not the best food source, both in terms of nutrition and availability. Most of the feeder anoles that are sold are wild-caught, stressed and unhealthy, and parasite ridden.

The tendancy for a few corn hatchlings to hatch wanting to eat anoles is always going to be there, but I think through some perserverance and careful breeding management that number could become rare. Through continued outcrossing and refusal to let such individuals breed, I'm sure the number is dropping with each generation.

I, personally, don't think it benefits the snake breed in general for a captive species. What wild snakes do is one thing, great let them eat anoles. But in a home where rodents are cheaper, more convenient, and healthier...that is the better alternative. I think its a breeder's responsibility to try to lessen the amount of animals that make it to the next generation with questionable genetics and so forth. So with that being said, I'm doing my part.

Any livestock farmer culls out the undesirables that don't have any traits that set it apart and make it good to have. I just have different "livestock". =)

[Cornfan]

I've assist-fed one little lavender hatchling since she was born last year (july if memory serves me correctly) and she's just finally figured out how to do it herself this past month. This was a major achievement! I tried scenting, braining, alternate meat sources etc. etc. until I simply had to assist-feed. She's now bulking up and doing grand!

[larryg]

Well, I wrote to Kathy and she said she does not own the rights to the book. She wrote it for BowTie. That being said, permission will have to be obtained from them. It may be easier if you just go buy the book. Sorry!

I suggest you read up on 'fair use' as pertains to copyrights. Posting short excerpts for educational purposes is perfectly fine. If you are THAT worried about it and everything else everyone posts, put the technique into your own words. It's not as though the technique is patented.

[PssdffJay]

freezing is an accepted way to euthanise snakes.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

[Cornfan]

I'll probably get flamed for this but freezing is accepted by some people - not everybody.

[Taceas]

I guess if you assist-feed a snake for over a year, then euthanasia of any sort is out of the question, eh? For euthanasia purposes on snakes, the best I've found is 'cranial reorganization'. It's all over in an instant and *virtually* pain free.

If a snake won't eat on its own at all no matter the tricks or positions of your tongue, there's no point in interfering with fate/Mother Nature/life. I just CAN'T see the purpose to prolonging something that Nature felt wasn't worthy. I don't think humans should interfere anymore than we already do with keeping captive snakes as it is. We do a dis-service to the animal, the species, and the hobby by keeping such specimens around to breed.

I guess I just look at things having a purpose, even death. If they don't make sense to our Homo sapien minds, then perhaps the reasons are too great for us to comprehend in the first place. A dead corn snake feeds many creatures which in turn feed many themselves. Its a whole cycle most people have removed themselves from. Kind of like chickens in plastic wrapped containers.

And don't think me cruel-hearted, I'm quite the opposite. I'm waiting right now to see if a deformed hatchling corn eats and poos on her own before I bring her to my home to live out her life peacefully. If they have the will to live, more power to them.

I just don't agree with breeding the deformed or otherwise un-fit, is what I guess I'm trying to say.

[Cornfan]

Taceas, the little individual I referred to here was a little lavender with only one eye who will never be sold and never be bred from. Yes, some may have chosen to euthenase straight away. However, if I choose to spare a life then that is entirely my business is it not?

You haven't a clue on my opinions on euthenasia apart from the fact that I pointed out that freezing is not a method accepted by everybody. Perhaps it would be an idea not to be so defensive on the matter? As you have stated, there are other methods and "cranial reorganisation" as you put it, is one method preferred over freezing by many.

[Skye]

I agree that freezing is not an method accepted by everyone. According to the American Veterinary Medical Association in their 2000 Report on Euthanasia, the section on reptiles states:

"Immobilization of reptiles by cooling is considered inappropriate and inhumane even if combined with other physical or chemical methods of euthanasia. Snakes and turtles, immobilized by cooling, have been killed by subsequent freezing. This method is not recommended. Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in the tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable."

If Misty's "cranial reorganization" means what I think it does then I would agree that this would be a humane method.

[princess]

I'm hoping to not have to face this euthanasia issue this year...I have 1 hatchling left from the years first clutch that hasn't eaten. If he goes 3 months and is still refusing, I have a friend with Kingsnakes who can return him to the cycle.