Gutloading "Frozen" Feeders

[ScottyK]

I was just reading Kathy and Bill Loves' new book. They were discussing some new ideas with regards to nutrition and exercise, and their effect on the health of captive Corn Snakes. One of the things mentioned was the monotony on the average captive diet.

For me, and probably a lot of other smaller scale hobbyists, raising my own feeders to gutload is not cost effective and too time consuming. That got me thinking of possible strategies and ingredients to add to my frozen mice. I will be injecting into the body cavity with a large gauge hypodermic needle.

I have a basic receipe in mind. I would only be doing this about once a month so as to not overdo it. I want to mix some rodent lab blocks, spring water and powdered reptile supplement in a blender to form a base puree. The next logical ingedients would seem to be fresh greens and grains that a wild rodent would be eating. I'm thinking along the lines of dandelion greens, oats, turnip greens etc....

I am looking for the following input from anyone who may be interested:

1- Has this been tried before and/or documented in a way that will be helpful to my efforts? Is anyone else already doing this?

2- Suggestions for other fresh ingredients? I want to have a decent rotation as the whole point of this is to vary the diet.

3- Ingredients to avoid? I'm pretty sure things like citrus are no good, but what about bananas, berries etc???

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.....

Scott

[Sasheena]

Here's my knee-jerk reaction...

Mice will nibble on greens, but they are grain eaters not green eaters.

The act of consuming food and filling their little tummies cannot be duplicated by a blender. I am not sure it is beneficial (or even wise) to put undigested greenstuff or grainstuff into a mouse and then into a snake. It could be that the snake cannot digest these things unless they have already been partially digested by the mouse in advance.

If raising your own feeders is not cost effective and you want to be sure that your snakes occassionally get a good gut-loaded meal, I would suggest occasionally buying some feeders, giving them a smorgasborg of delightful cuisine, then whacking and feeding to your snakes.

[~slither~]

I have just got two rats to breed my own feeders. Having a snake was just a good excuse to get them though, as I've wanted some for a while.
I agree with sasheena that it's probably not the best idea to inject the stuff, but if you were to raise your own feeders and give them a really healthy diet then I think that would be a good idea. I've wanted to raise my own feeders as then I know that they have been well fed/kept, so like yourself want the best for my snake.

[princess]

I feed frozen and I just dip the occasional mouse bum in some calcium powder...by occasional, I mean I think the last time I did it was about Feb!!!

[ScottyK]

Hey Sasheena- Thanks for your input. My replies below to your comments are solely made in hopes of getting an interesting dialog going. I really do appreciate feedback....



Mice will nibble on greens, but they are grain eaters not green eaters.

Agreed. That's why I want to make the primary ingredient lab blocks and supplement with "some" fresh greens and grains...

The act of consuming food and filling their little tummies cannot be duplicated by a blender.

Here I disagree. Anything fresh that's chopped up in a blender is still fresh. That's like saying chewing before swallowing has an effect on freshness.

I am not sure it is beneficial (or even wise) to put undigested greenstuff or grainstuff into a mouse and then into a snake. It could be that the snake cannot digest these things unless they have already been partially digested by the mouse in advance

Here are a few facts I'm sure of (I tried to think this out as much as possible before I posted)

1- Wild herbivores (or omnivores with primarily non meat diets) always have abundant food, hence the rise of carnivores as a check. They almost always have a full stomach. They also never needed to develop particularly efficient digestive systems, and pass most of what they eat undigested.

2- The stomach contents of prey items have been shown to be nutritionally important to the carnivores that eat them. Even animals that don't eat their prey whole, like lions, go right for the stomach and intestines of their prey.

3- Therefore, carnivores (cornsnakes included) are getting undigested roughage with every meal and have probably evolved to take advantage of the available extra nutrition.

Just for the record- I'm not talking about bloating up my mice with a huge amount of the stuff with every feeding. I agree that might be too much :)
I want to use a small amount only every fourth feeding or so as a supplement towards the snakes "long term" health.

If raising your own feeders is not cost effective and you want to be sure that your snakes occassionally get a good gut-loaded meal, I would suggest occasionally buying some feeders, giving them a smorgasborg of delightful cuisine, then whacking and feeding to your snakes.

This is a really good idea! My problem is this is a sensitive subject for my wife, and I swore a "Frozen Only Oath" to her when we got our first snake. A snake BTW that she initially wanted :rolleyes:

[ScottyK]

I have just got two rats to breed my own feeders. Having a snake was just a good excuse to get them though, as I've wanted some for a while.
I agree with sasheena that it's probably not the best idea to inject the stuff, but if you were to raise your own feeders and give them a really healthy diet then I think that would be a good idea. I've wanted to raise my own feeders as then I know that they have been well fed/kept, so like yourself want the best for my snake.

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the suggestions and comments. See my above answers to Sasheena as it covers you too..


Princess- I am also doing the once a month powdered tush :)

This was more of an idea to expand on that if I can...

[Sasheena]

Here I disagree. Anything fresh that's chopped up in a blender is still fresh. That's like saying chewing before swallowing has an effect on freshness.

Well if mice are anything like human beings (both being omnivores and mammals, I tend to think they are more similar than dissimilar).... then the FIRST step in digestion is what goes on in the mouth. Saliva (human anyway) has a digestive enzyme that begins the process of digestion... so while it is not MUCH, I believe that any food in a rodent stomach, while mixed with digestive juices even only momentarily, is still DIFFERENT from the raw stuff you would get from a blender. Now if you want to spit in your blender before you blend the stuff and add a pea-sized amount to the gut of the feeder, perhaps it would approximate what you would find in the gut of the feeder.

I do know that the gut contents of the feeder IS essential to proper nutrition for the animal. BUT anything that has gone from the mouth to the digestive tract has already been partially digested. Hurley can probably correct me if I'm wrong on this issue, since Biology is not my forte.

While the frozen feeders you purchase have stomach contents that you have no control over, who is to say what those contents already are? Or is it the freshness (as in not-frozen-ness) that you are aiming for? In any case, I think that it is dangerous to feel that what you are doing duplicates what the mouse does naturally.

Also please know that I retired my "flamethrower" a long time ago. I simply express my opinion, I leave personalities and hurt feelings out of it. Makes life simpler and keeps my blood pressure down. I do not mind a dialogue, and even an "agree to disagree". :)

[ScottyK]

Well if mice are anything like human beings (both being omnivores and mammals, I tend to think they are more similar than dissimilar).... then the FIRST step in digestion is what goes on in the mouth. Saliva (human anyway) has a digestive enzyme that begins the process of digestion... so while it is not MUCH, I believe that any food in a rodent stomach, while mixed with digestive juices even only momentarily, is still DIFFERENT from the raw stuff you would get from a blender. Now if you want to spit in your blender before you blend the stuff and add a pea-sized amount to the gut of the feeder, perhaps it would approximate what you would find in the gut of the feeder.

LOL- I think we are both splitting hairs here. I'm sure whatever tiny bit of digestion goes on during swallowing, especially with a mostly herbivorous diet, is not going to be a make or break issue. A good whirl through the blender will probably more than approximate whatever breakdown chewing does.

While the frozen feeders you purchase have stomach contents that you have no control over, who is to say what those contents already are? Or is it the freshness (as in not-frozen-ness) that you are aiming for?

It's a little of both. I know enough about business to be pretty sure that most frozen mice go out with empty stomachs. I can't see them putting extra $$$ into food right before they euthanize them. Today has been too long already, but tomorrow I think I'll try pulling one out of the freezer and seeing for myself.

In any case, I think that it is dangerous to feel that what you are doing duplicates what the mouse does naturally.

I think this is way overstated. Very little of what we do for our snakes is what would happen naturally. I am actually trying to get closer to natural while being very conservative about it.

Also please know that I retired my "flamethrower" a long time ago. I simply express my opinion, I leave personalities and hurt feelings out of it. Makes life simpler and keeps my blood pressure down. I do not mind a dialogue, and even an "agree to disagree". :)

My sentiments exactly :) I'm looking for feedback whether it agrees or disagrees with my idea. I'm still feeling this all out and not 100% comitted to doing it yet. You've already inspired me to do some random gut content checks on my feeders. I'll post my results....

Thanks,
Scott

[Sasheena]

It's a little of both. I know enough about business to be pretty sure that most frozen mice go out with empty stomachs. I can't see them putting extra $$$ into food right before they euthanize them. Today has been too long already, but tomorrow I think I'll try pulling one out of the freezer and seeing for myself.

Ah.... BUT.... if I was running a rodent mill, I would have all my mice in their cozy racks (which include an unlimited food and water supply) right up until it's time for them to go to the slaughter... I wouldn't take the effort of putting them in some "foodless" rack so that they would use up the last of their food content before whacking them. I think that the amount of food the soon-to-be-euthanized animals consume while waiting for death row would be negligible and it would be easier to feed them like normal up until the final moment.

In my own colonies, I sometimes decide a "mass execution" is in order... and my method is to prepare a special critter keeper with substrate, and a good scoop of delicacy.... while I'm cleaning cages I pop the critters who are "marked for death" into that cage. It usually doesn't have a water bottle, but does have goodies. I want them to be comfortable and don't mind giving them a treat. When I have the critter keeper full enough, it's into the CO2 chamber and from there to the feeder. They are about 1 hour without water, no time at all without food. Mice and rats just are more amenable when they have yummy sunflower seeds to chow down on.

[ScottyK]

LOL- Read my post in your funny mouse anecdotes thread. I'd love to do the home bred mouse thing if I could.

Also-If you ever go into the frozen mouse business, I'll be your #1 customer...