deformed hatchling... what to do?

[Hjorrdis]

The 13th snake emerged from the egg tonight and appears to have a severly deformed head. The spot where the left eye is supposed to be appears to have the shape of the eye, but instead of there being an eye it looks like skin grew over the spot.... I believe this eye is functional but blacked out, because the snake seems to be sensitive to light. The right eye, on the other hand, does not appear to even be there at all. The lip is curled up a bit under the eye and may hinder the poor thing's mouth function. I have yet to see a tongue flick out, but the snake is moving around all right. It doesn't seem to retain water very well (the skin is dry), but I have seen it drinking water. I suppose I'll try to keep it alive as long as possible, but if there's anything I can do other than keeping it moist, I'd like to know. I'll post pictures tomorrow!

Thanks a lot!

[KatieL]

Wow, that is unfortunate. I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you, but I just wanted to say I hope things go alright (although it doesn't sound very good, does it?). :(

[Hjorrdis]

thank you a lot for your support....

I thought I'd post a picture of this poor thing... so here's one of the right side of its head which appears to be the most deformed... the other side is just strange....

this snake does seem to be feeling better this morning!

[Jynx]

From what you have described, it seems to be a pretty extreme deformity. I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but the most humane thing I can suggest is euthanization. Keeping it alive may seem to be the "right thing to do" but in the meantime, the poor animal is probably suffering. Sometimes nature decides which ones will stay, and which ones will go, and we have no control over it. Surely, if this little hatchling was not born into captivity, it would have a very little chance at surviving, and that is something you have to keep in mind, especially as a breeder. Let nature take its course. Sorry to hear about your little guy, but remember, you have 12 more perfectly healthy hatchlings that need your attention. :)

[tat2d1]

i agree with jynx. i, personally, don't see the point in keeping it alive. with the mouth deformity you described, i'd be surprised if it could even eat, and it would be just cruel to let it starve to death.

put him in the fridge for an hour or so then move him to the freezer. that's the most humane way i can think of.

[Hjorrdis]

mmk, thanks :/

[Jynx]

I know its hard, but sometimes these things happen. Its not your fault, it's just nature being nature. Just focus your efforts on the rest of the clutch, which is beautiful by the way! There's nothing you can do about that little guy, but you can ensure that his siblings have a healthy and happy start in life :)

[KatieL]

Not to go totally against the grain here, but I seem to remember reading on here somewhere that freezing snakes is a pretty inhumane way to put them down. If I remember correctly they are still conscious as ice crystals form in their eyes and body... ouch!

I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading it on this forum. Maybe you could find the thread by doing a search? I'll look for it later this evening if I have time.

[amcgltdchix]

hmm.. Im in veterinary medicine. Have been for 12 years. The most humane way of euthanasia is an injection of euthasol- which is an OD of an anesthetic- stops the heart and breathing immediatly while going under anesthesia.

BUT... if you do manage to get this little guy to eat, and you want a nice project (all of my pets tend to be lemons, but I love them all) then have at it :)

[Hjorrdis]

yeah I might see if it can live...... it doesn't seem to be unhappy

[TandJ]

A Kingsnake might be the answer to... Tough to put critters down, but like everyone says, probably the most humane thing to do...

Regards..

[Jynx]

BUT... if you do manage to get this little guy to eat, and you want a nice project (all of my pets tend to be lemons, but I love them all) then have at it :)

For someone that's in vet medicine, I am appalled that you would even give that kind of advice, thus prolonging the suffering of an animal. Especially for someone who has "studied it for 12 years"... that would have made you 16 when you started... hmmm...

Giving advice like that, have you ever thought that maybe there was a reason your pets "tend to be lemons?" :)

[Joejr14]

Put the snake down, no doubt. Keeping that snake alive would be cruel.

[D|ssey]

Em, hi guys, I've never posted before but just read the stuff here, cos I'm getting a corn soon. If the little guy doesnt seem to be suffering why put him down?

[Duff]

I'd have to agree that the only one who could know for sure if a snake NEEDS to be euthanized would be the owner or at least someone who's spent time with it. Not like we can just ask them, so we have to go by how they're acting. If they eat, shed and defecate without any seeming problems, and are as active as a healthy looking snake, then who are we to say they are suffering? I understand you can't sell a deformed snake, and commercial breeders may not want to have to keep all the deformed babies as pets, but if someone has a deformed snake, and they say it appears to be fine and acting normal, what right does anyone else have to tell them they should put it down? You can't SAY FOR SURE that's it would be cruel to allow it to live. Nature doesn't throw deformed babies into a freezer. True, they might not have as good a chance at long term survival, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to have a full and satisfying life. I'm not trying to attack anyone or anyway of doing things, just think things seem to be getting more and more about who's way is the right way, when in reality, there are usually several different paths that may all work out.

[Hjorrdis]

I'm going to keep it alive for a few more days, maybe even a week, to at least get a better judgement.... and if I decide it's not doing too well I'll use co2 to put it down.

[Jynx]

Em, hi guys, I've never posted before but just read the stuff here, cos I'm getting a corn soon. If the little guy doesnt seem to be suffering why put him down?

I'd have to agree that the only one who could know for sure if a snake NEEDS to be euthanized would be the owner or at least someone who's spent time with it. Not like we can just ask them, so we have to go by how they're acting. If they eat, shed and defecate without any seeming problems, and are as active as a healthy looking snake, then who are we to say they are suffering? I understand you can't sell a deformed snake, and commercial breeders may not want to have to keep all the deformed babies as pets, but if someone has a deformed snake, and they say it appears to be fine and acting normal, what right does anyone else have to tell them they should put it down? You can't SAY FOR SURE that's it would be cruel to allow it to live. Nature doesn't throw deformed babies into a freezer. True, they might not have as good a chance at long term survival, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to have a full and satisfying life. I'm not trying to attack anyone or anyway of doing things, just think things seem to be getting more and more about who's way is the right way, when in reality, there are usually several different paths that may all work out.

Ok, well lets just ask the snake then... oh, wait...

This is where we as keepers come in. Since nature is not here to take over, we must play that role. No, nature does not take deformed hatchlings and throw them in freezers. Nature will allow the animal to survive long enough to either let the animal suffer to the point of death, which an animal in that condition would undoubtedly meet in no time, thus returning it to the earth or giving that life to another animal who is healthy. If you ask me, I'd rather be put into a freezer or fed to a kingsnake than have to survive in a world where I can't see to even hide from predators and slowly starve to death. That seems like a worse way to go.

[Jynx]

I'm going to keep it alive for a few more days, maybe even a week, to at least get a better judgement.... and if I decide it's not doing too well I'll use co2 to put it down.

This is absolutley your decision. I or anyone else on this forum can't tell you what to do and not to do with your own clutch. You asked for opinions, and they were given by people who have been in this situation before. I am in no way trying to attack you, but I am trying to show you that, though its very hard to give up on something, especially something living and breathing, we can't save them all. I was in this situation as well many a time, and have caused immense suffering to some babies just because I thought that trying to save them would be better for them. If you intend to be a breeder then this is something you will deal with time and time again.

For the hatchling's sake, I hope you make the right decision. Best of luck.

[Duff]

Ok, well lets just ask the snake then... oh, wait...
Thank you for proving my point, even though it appears you were trying to disprove my point.

This is where we as keepers come in. Since nature is not here to take over, we must play that role. No, nature does not take deformed hatchlings and throw them in freezers. Nature will allow the animal to survive long enough to either let the animal suffer to the point of death, which an animal in that condition would undoubtedly meet in no time, thus returning it to the earth or giving that life to another animal who is healthy. If you ask me, I'd rather be put into a freezer or fed to a kingsnake than have to survive in a world where I can't see to even hide from predators and slowly starve to death. That seems like a worse way to go.
So I guess we should now make it ok for parents to tell a doctor to go ahead and put down that baby that was just born with a deformity, since it will obviously not be able to have any kind of decent life, and if we were still living in "nature", that would be the one "nature" wouldn't want to make it anyway. The world is full of disabled humans, and animals for that matter, that are quite happy to be alive.

I wasn't looking to start up some big broohaha, only to point out that some people are a bit too into "their" way of doing things, and there is no other appropriate or right way. Someone was looking for help on what to do with a deformed hatchling, and seems to be willing to give it some time to determine if it might have a chance at a quality life before immediately throwing it out. I think that's highly commendable, and shouldn't be met with posts saying to just put it down cause it'd be cruel to keep it alive. What's wrong with giving it a little time to see how it does?

[Jynx]

So I guess we should now make it ok for parents to tell a doctor to go ahead and put down that baby that was just born with a deformity, since it will obviously not be able to have any kind of decent life, and if we were still living in "nature", that would be the one "nature" wouldn't want to make it anyway. The world is full of disabled humans, and animals for that matter, that are quite happy to be alive.

I knew that someone would argue this point. The fact that this was even brought up has just convinced me that trying to push a point to someone who would compare apples to oranges is futile.

I'm sure that were it legal, this would happen. I have been in this situation, and my family has wished for 3 years that there was something we could do to change human laws of "morality".

My aunt got pregnant at 44 accidentily, and did not believe in abortions. She had numerous problems during the pregnancy, and the baby was born 4 months prematurely. His brain was not even fully developed, he was physically deformed, and had numerous other medical ailments that I can't even list. He was kept in a sterile incubator at the hospital, fed through a tube, and on life support the entire time. The doctors pushed my cousin to live for 3 YEARS like this... with barely the ability to even blink. He recently passed and my entire family, although mourning his loss, was grateful that he no longer had to suffer. Now what kind of a life does this sound like to you.

I did not intend to change the subject, but to prove a point. And now I'm done with this thread...

[princess]

Hjorrdis, I'm sorry to hear about your little one in trouble. With a deformed mouth and no/little sight, it's not likely that you'll get it to thrive. The kindest thing to do would be to euthanase it and concentrate your energy into your other snakes. CO2 isn't a great method for reptiles as they can hold their breath a long time and are quite resistant to hypoxia. If you put it in the fridge for an hour or 2 it will be totally unconscious by the time you transfer it to the freezer which will finish off the job so it won't suffer. The fastest way but not a very pretty way is to take it outside, put it on a rock/brick or whatever and crush it's head with a hammer or a rock. I very much doubt it will 'see' it coming and it will be over very quickly indeed. Good luck with whatever decission you make and whatever action you take.

[Hurley]

Although I haven't had many, the hatchlings I have had with severe malformations of the head tend to not thrive mostly due to the difficulty of eating their prey. I have yet, actually, to have one that would eat or really even lived that long after hatching. That being said, I do know of many with microphthalmia (tiny eyes) or ocular agenesis (eyes that never formed) that are otherwise normal and eat, crawl, and do snakely things very well.

IF the hatchling can eat normally, shed, and otherwise act normally (physically and mentally) and you wish to take on a disabled snake, then there is no reason to put the snake down. If it can't eat, shed, or crawl, then in my hands, yes, I would euthanize the hatchling. There is no "correct" decision, it's a personal choice of the person with the snake and the "right" choice for me may not be the "right" choice for others.

CO2 will work but takes much longer with snakes than with mammals. I have used CO2, but I usually make sure they are unconscious for some time and then put them in the freezer to ensure they are truly gone and not just heavily anesthetized.

[Hjorrdis]

I have to agree with Jynx here... I find it highly unlikely that this snake will eat, but I could be wrong. I've seen no tongue so I'm not even sure it can smell well enough to recognize that a pinky presented to it might be food... the best chance I have at seeing if it might be able to eat is to give it a live pinky to feel and hope that maybe that wakes up some instinct somewhere to eat.

It's also very possible that its jaw will not be able to dislocate to allow it to swallow a pinky... snakes are not like humans at all.

We can always put an iv in a human to give it the proper nutrients... this is not available for snakes because snakes are just animals, just pets, and they produce a large number of offsping each time in order to offset the losses of malformed babies and deaths to predators.

I can't tell, but it could be that this baby is experiencing a large amount of pain, but we'll never know because it'll never cry or anything. I'm not sure animals like this are capable of even just deciding not to live any longer.

Also, the worst part about snakes like this, is that they can survive for extremely long time periods without food, and so they starve to death more slowly than any mammal would. It may take 2 or 3 months for it to die from starving, but I won't let that happen.

Yes, I would like to keep this baby alive as long as possible, but sometimes that is unkind.

[Serpwidgets]

I think this really is apples and oranges. Comparing how to treat newborn humans to other animals is not reasonable. We practice eugenics on captive populations. We also breed some of them for food, including the mice, rats, and other food animals your snakes eat. Doing any of these things with humans is a completely different ballgame.

IMO the decision is up to the person who is responsible for the animal's life and quality of life: the person who hatched it. That person did ask for advice, though. If I hatched it, it would be kingsnake food. But for me that decision is based on the (cornsnake eugenics) premise that I think my time and energy is better spent working with corns that I believe will bring something positive to the gene pool.

My advice is to follow your conscience. :)

[Inked_lil_girl]

wow, poor little guy. I would like to know if he eats. if you do try and keep him alive.

[Duff]

I knew that someone would argue this point. The fact that this was even brought up has just convinced me that trying to push a point to someone who would compare apples to oranges is futile.

I'm sure that were it legal, this would happen. I have been in this situation, and my family has wished for 3 years that there was something we could do to change human laws of "morality".

My aunt got pregnant at 44 accidentily, and did not believe in abortions. She had numerous problems during the pregnancy, and the baby was born 4 months prematurely. His brain was not even fully developed, he was physically deformed, and had numerous other medical ailments that I can't even list. He was kept in a sterile incubator at the hospital, fed through a tube, and on life support the entire time. The doctors pushed my cousin to live for 3 YEARS like this... with barely the ability to even blink. He recently passed and my entire family, although mourning his loss, was grateful that he no longer had to suffer. Now what kind of a life does this sound like to you.

I did not intend to change the subject, but to prove a point. And now I'm done with this thread...
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. I clearly stated if the hatchling could eat, shed and defecate without any problems and appeared to act as a normal snake. The above tale would not constitute being able to take on a healthy life, would it? Show me where exactly I said that no snake should be put down?? Everything I've said was just about the WAY responses were a blanket statement basically saying, if it's not 100%, put it down, which I don't think is right. If that's what the owner/keeper chooses, than so be it, but you can't make blanket statements like that without having first hand knowledge of the situation. One last point, to everyone that has a problem with using humans in comparision to animals or pets, why is it so hard to try and think of animals who pose no danger or threat having the same right to life as we do?? And no, I'm not some extremist activist or anything like that. I just think humans have been a bit too full of themselves in respect to other forms of life for way too long. Until I'm told by whoever created all this life that I actually am more important or deserving, I will try to give all life equal respect.

And as far as all the defenders, I should've known better than to question anyone in the clique, please excuse my stupidity.

[Serpwidgets]

One last point, to everyone that has a problem with using humans in comparision to animals or pets, why is it so hard to try and think of animals who pose no danger or threat having the same right to life as we do??Then why do you not afford the same right to life to the animals you feed to your snakes? Does lettuce have a right to life, too? What about all the insects we exterminate? Why do we not go out and prosecute snakes for animal cruelty when they kill a mouse by constriction? It is clear that these questions cannot be answered in the same terms as we answer these questions for humans. It is simply not possible because of the way life on this planet happens to work.

Rights come with responsibilities. Yes, humans are animals, but animals are not humans. There are key differences. This is not an animal society but a civilized human society. We claim our rights, IMO, because we take responsibility for them. Human children are afforded human rights because they are expected to become responsible for themselves when they reach maturity. Those who do not are stripped of those rights. They have their economic, social, physical freedoms taken away, and sometimes their own lives. It simply does not make sense to try to draw one-to-one equal statements between this and animals in that way.

I'm not ranting here, but trying to point out all of the numerous and significant differences.

And as far as all the defenders, I should've known better than to question anyone in the clique, please excuse my stupidity.What clique? A lot of people happen to agree with each other here. Accusing people of agreeing with each other "just because they belong to some secret club" is really nothing more than a cheesy tactic meant to undermine the credibility of any individual's position on the matter. This is insulting to everyone who does have their own independently formed opinion on the matter, including myself, and amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

[Jynx]

you can't make blanket statements like that without having first hand knowledge of the situation.

I'm sorry, did you even see the picture of said hatchling...

And in regards to the above statement, I also think that its very inappropriate for you to do the same. This thread asked for opinion and advice. Now, having been through this situation many times before, I think I am more than capable of giving very good advice in this situation. Are you?

As passionate as I am about animals, they are animals. A human can understand and cope with the fact that they are blind, deaf, disabled etc etc and adapt to live a life, though it will never be "normal." Having said that, do you really believe that an animal that survives off of instinct should be even remotely considered in the same catagory?

Were the deformities a little less extreme, then by all means, I would say give it a go. A kink, a twist, thats nothing compared to this. Look at the picture one more time... tell me if you do not think that these are extreme. How many snakes have you looked at for even 3 seconds... you will see one tongue whip at least. The fact that he has seen none at ALL should be enough to make any person think that, though everyone always wants to try and save them all, there is something seriously wrong with the animal.

I am not saying that my way is the only right way. My way is just how I do things, but when someone asks for advice in a situation I have been in numerous times before, I will not only give my piece of advice, but also reasons behind it.

[Duff]

Then why do you not afford the same right to life to the animals you feed to your snakes? Does lettuce have a right to life, too? What about all the insects we exterminate? Why do we not go out and prosecute snakes for animal cruelty when they kill a mouse by constriction? It is clear that these questions cannot be answered in the same terms as we answer these questions for humans. It is simply not possible because of the way life on this planet happens to work.
Simple, they are being used as food. They are not being put down because they're not perfectly sellable offspring. At no point did I say I am against euthanizing when appropriate. I also made sure to point out that I'm not an extremist, specifically to avoid this kind of argument. Why is it that no one seems to have gotten the whole point behind my original post, even after I've tried to clarify it? And the whole lettuce thing?? Give me a break. Talk about reaching.

One last time, and then whoever flames or attacks what I say can have fun, cause I'm not gonna keep going on this anymore. I do not thinks it's appropriate to tell someone that their deformed or disabled hatchling has no chance at a decent life and if kept alive would just be cruel to it. You can't make a blanket statement like that without making sure to add that it's an opinion, and not a fact. That's it. That's all I was trying to say.

[Jynx]

They are not being put down because they're not perfectly sellable offspring.

You keep coming up with this as the reason that we are defending our opinions here, but you could not be farther from the truth. This has nothing to do with it. We are talking about this poor animal's quality of life. With deformities like that, it really has none.

And as far as all the defenders, I should've known better than to question anyone in the clique, please excuse my stupidity.

I would have never even hinted towards anything like that. I always welcome others' opinions. I happen to not agree with yours, and think I have very good reasons as to why I don't. Apparantly "debate" and "difference of opinion" are the same as an "attack" to you.

Honestly, after making that little statement above, I can only agree with you now...

[Energi2er]

Sorry to hear about the poor little guy. keep us updated on his condition whatever you decide to do.

[Serpwidgets]

Simple, they are being used as food. They are not being put down because they're not perfectly sellable offspring. At no point did I say I am against euthanizing when appropriate. I also made sure to point out that I'm not an extremist, specifically to avoid this kind of argument. Why is it that no one seems to have gotten the whole point behind my original post, even after I've tried to clarify it? And the whole lettuce thing?? Give me a break. Talk about reaching.

One last time, and then whoever flames or attacks what I say can have fun, cause I'm not gonna keep going on this anymore. I do not thinks it's appropriate to tell someone that their deformed or disabled hatchling has no chance at a decent life and if kept alive would just be cruel to it. You can't make a blanket statement like that without making sure to add that it's an opinion, and not a fact. That's it. That's all I was trying to say.I think you are taking anyone who disagrees with you on any point and lumping the whole thing into one statement. If you want to equate disagreeing with "flaming and attacking" that is your option, but you're really missing the point if that's what you get out of any of my posts here.

For the record, my statement was that the person who hatched it is responsible for that decision and they should follow their conscience. You apparently missed that I agreed with you on the point that the decision is theirs and they should use their own judgement, which in itself very clearly implies that there is no valid blanket statement as to what action is an absolute "right or wrong" decision.

Where I disagreed with you, and still do, is on the premise that animals should be afforded the same "rights" as humans. I also strongly believe that life, liberty AND the pursuit of happiness all go hand-in-hand, and any of them are worthless without the other two. I do not believe that non-human animals, whether they are pets or livestock or wild animals, can be said to automatically have the same rights. Obviously neither do you, since you deny your snakes the right to go where they want, eat what/when they want, and mate with whomever they want.

The question I was trying to ask is if you are going to extend "basic human rights" to other non-human living things, there is a point at which it becomes impossible to do so. You have to draw a line somewhere, so where exactly do you choose to arbitrarily draw that line? And by what reasoning do you expect others to draw their line in the same place as yours and simply imply they are cruel for not doing so?

Also for the record, this is Kinky, who had a severe kink when he hatched. I raised him to the age of four and then placed him in a happy home.
http://serpwidgets.com/Collection/Kinky/Kinky_0103_01.jpg

I don't think any of my statements in this thread can be reasonably interpreted as "personal attacks" or "flames" or whatever. If you do, then you are welcome to quote them here.

However, you are using "attack" tactics like saying that peoples opinions don't count because they are just following a clique, that those who would euthanize a deformed hatchling are cruel, unfeeling, and just doing it because it isn't saleable, and trying to mischaracterize expressing a contrary position as "flaming."

[JTGoff69]

.

IF the hatchling can eat normally, shed, and otherwise act normally (physically and mentally) and you wish to take on a disabled snake, then there is no reason to put the snake down. If it can't eat, shed, or crawl, then in my hands, yes, I would euthanize the hatchling. There is no "correct" decision, it's a personal choice of the person with the snake and the "right" choice for me may not be the "right" choice for others.




I think Connie summed this whole thread up nicely with that statement. Period. :cheers:

[TripleMoonsExotic]

BUT... if you do manage to get this little guy to eat, and you want a nice project (all of my pets tend to be lemons, but I love them all) then have at it :)

I don't know if I'm the only one that noticed this...and maybe I misinterpreted it (as well as others could)...Am I reading this correctly that you would think it ok to make a "project" out of this deformed hatchling? A BREEDING project??? That is my first impression of your statement. My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

[Hurley]

I took it to mean a project as in putting extra time and care into caring for the hatchling. I doubt she meant breeding project. :)

[Hjorrdis]

Good news guys!

I was just holding the poor little thing a couple minutes ago and it opened its mouth nice and wide for me! This is a really good sign because I wasn't thinking it would be able to do even that. I'm wondering if its hungry or was just testing things... still needs to shed.

It's doing so much better I'm starting to wonder if maybe it could survive. It looks pretty strange slithering around with its head held weirdly... but it can't see so what else is it supposed to do?

I'm just worried that since it doesn't seem to have a tongue and won't be able to swallow anything and keep it down at all, and that other things could be really messed up.

I'll keep you guys updated when more happens!

[TandJ]

Just do what your conscious can let you live with.. Some people find culling a really tough thing to do, in appropiate circumstances it is an easy decision for me to make. I am not playing God and I don't make the cross over to worthiness of a human ( although personally Darwin has not be actting out as much as he should, but hey thats Murphies Law ), because that is not a great thing to try and do. I meet people who try that cross over, needless to say they generally walk away very upset with a person like myself, and its for the same damn objective to.. Can't win them all..

Regards...

[JenC]

Hrrrm...well if it was me..i would definately do what I could for it...

Its the same as a dog or a cat born with deformaties...people give them a chance...Why not give this guy a chance? He is no different from any other animal kept alive born with deformaties... like Connie said, if it can eat, drink etc...why put it down?

Keep us updated!

[corncrazy008]

Personally I would put it down. I tend to agree with Jynx, in nature it would have no chance of survival. I personally would feed it to a kingsnake or bird of prey or whatever else might eat it. I know this may sound a little cruel but it allows the snake to be used for what it would have been used in the wild, food. I understand we aren't in the "wild", however, nature really does know best so I try to follow suit. Using it as food doesn't allow it to just go to waste either. Remember also, not all things born are really meant to survive.

Either way it is your choice but this is just what I would personally do with it.

[reptile_addict]

My pacman or savannah would take it down some what quickly. If it eats after the first shed, I would give it a chance at life

[MastersHaven]

Personally I would put it down. I tend to agree with Jynx, in nature it would have no chance of survival. I personally would feed it to a kingsnake or bird of prey or whatever else might eat it. I know this may sound a little cruel but it allows the snake to be used for what it would have been used in the wild, food. I understand we aren't in the "wild", however, nature really does know best so I try to follow suit. Using it as food doesn't allow it to just go to waste either. Remember also, not all things born are really meant to survive.

Either way it is your choice but this is just what I would personally do with it.


Well see.. this is the thing....
This snake is not in the wild and to be quite honest any of these babies wouldn't have survived in the true "Wild" they would have never even been produced in the wild....
:shrugs: so I guess if we deem this statement viable then we all should take our brightly colored morphs out and cull them off because they too would never survive/thrive in the wild.

Im just making an aobservation and a point...

:rolleyes: I, myself would give this little guy a chance...
and many babies wont eat right off (do we cull them off) no...
we give them several chances first so dont jump the gun if this little guy dont take off and eat right away...

but Hjorrdis, :cry: if it does come to the point that you feel it should be euthanized... I have read on here many times (never had to actually do it) but If you place it in the refrigerator for an hour or so to cool it and enduce hybernation you can then slip it into the freezer ( I have heard that this is thought to be more humane than to just sticking it in the freezer)


hope all is well with you and yours...

care to give us an update?

:wavey:

[KatieL]

in nature it would have no chance of survival.


Hehe, not to stir the pot, but I highly doubt my lavender would have much of a chance in the wild either... ;)

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with putting him down. Ultimately, Hjorrdis, the choice is up to you. I think you have enough opinions on here already, mine would just be superfluous. I am curious to see what happens with this little one though. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Keep us updated! :)

[KatieL]

Oops! Somehow missed the post right before mine - I guess its all been said.

[coyote]

I have discovered that removing the head of a snake isn't the most humane method for dispatching it either. Not like it is for birds and mammals. Any veterinarian or competent technician should be able to inject euthanasia solution into the heart. Snakes just can't catch a break. There doesn't seem to be any quick, painless way to do the deed. Still, with euthanasia solution there is at least increasing sedation leading to death. Just a thought. Don't even bother railing at me about cost. Sometimes you just have to pay. There is no reason why an acceptable deal can't be made with a local vet to address issues just like this. Thanks.

[KatieL]

Do you by chance have an update for us, Hjorrdis?

[bitsy]

There doesn't seem to be any quick, painless way to do the deed

My vet's view is that the only humane method of euthanasing a smaller snake like a Corn, is a hard blow to the head which destroys the brain instantly. Ugly but worth knowing. Just hope I never have to make that decision.

Snakes' nervous systems are designed to function without oxygen for longer periods of time than a mammal. Freezing, decapitation and injection can still result in a protracted and painful death, throughout which the snake is conscious.

[Susan]

My vet's view is that the only humane method of euthanasing a smaller snake like a Corn, is a hard blow to the head which destroys the brain instantly. Ugly but worth knowing. Just hope I never have to make that decision.

Snakes' nervous systems are designed to function without oxygen for longer periods of time than a mammal. Freezing, decapitation and injection can still result in a protracted and painful death, throughout which the snake is conscious.
And what if the first blow to the head isn't perfect? Or someone didn't hit it hard enough or with a big enough hammer (or whatever) to totally smash the entire brain? Personally, I think your vet needs to rethink his/her ethics.

IMO, the most humane method of euthanasia for reptiles would be an intramuscular injection of anesthetic (or gas anesthetic, but takes longer) so it is "out" like for a surgery, and then the final injection of euthanasia solution (standard procedure for dogs and cats)...personal preference for herps is directly into the brain (try to find a vein in a turtle and you sure can't get to the heart easily) via the base of the skull where it attaches to the spinal cord. I've used this method with birds as well. But, I usually don't want to wait until I can get a snake to the hospital...I use the fridge to freezer method for my personal snakes.

[bitsy]

And what if the first blow to the head isn't perfect? Or someone didn't hit it hard enough or with a big enough hammer (or whatever) to totally smash the entire brain? Personally, I think your vet needs to rethink his/her ethics.


The vet's view was that this was much more reliable than anaesthetic. Snakes can have a very individual response to anaesthetic. Effectively they can hold their breath for many minutes, so gas is even less measureable. Lethal injection for a reptile requires at least three times the volume-to-bodyweight to produce instant death, than would be used for a mammal. Most vets aren't aware of that.

[Hjorrdis]

Final update :(

It's been over three weeks since the rest of the clutch shed and this guy still doesn't seem to be trying for it. The skin is starting to peel and he REALLY needs to shed but no move towards it. We're going for freezing, because all methods seem unpleasant, at least I can allow him to hibernate first, eh.

[rhinecat]

Honestly, I know I'm coming to this thread late, but I'd see a vet. Chemical euthanasia is entirely humane, and the only negative thing your snake will experience is the stress of being handled. Hopefully he's not already been put in the freezer. :(

[Tracee]

Aw I'm so sorry he didn't improve. I've been following this thread and was willing him to pull through... Would've been lovely if he had, but I guess the lil guy knows what's best and knows not to fight. You did everything you could, but it wasn't meant to be. *Hugs*

[Hjorrdis]

Thank you guys for your support....

as for taking the snake to the vet and having it euthanized.... Apparently not all vets who do this know that it takes a lot to do so. I would hate to have the poor thing just so drugged he looked dead and that chance was a little much for me. I also do not have the money to constantly take bad hatchlings to the vet. Sorry if that offends you :)

[KatieL]

Aww, I'm sorry the little guy isn't making it. I was really pulling for him. At least you did the most you could for him, and gave him a fair chance. I'm really sorry it didn't work out for you, but I think you did the right thing.

Thanks for the update.

[Pinkysmommy]

I wouldn't euthanize my child if she had a deformity...then again..snakes are different. If she doesn't seem unhappy then I would work with her. Hopefully she can eat. Good luck to you and your hatchling...poor baby =(

[Pinkysmommy]

I just read all of the posts and realized your hatchling passed away...so ignore my last post

[rhinecat]

I also do not have the money to constantly take bad hatchlings to the vet. Sorry if that offends you :)

Not offended, but you made mention of how none of the methods available to you seemed very good, so I wanted to let you know that one is quite humane for the snake. (Also, my vet charges $10 to euthanize, and since it's only one hatchling, I didn't think that would be an issue. Anyway, irrelevant now.)

[Jynx]

Hjorrdis, I am very sorry. As I stated in a earlier post, you have an entire clutch full of healthy vibrant hatchlings that need your help getting started in life. I hope that thought helps to ease you a little bit, and you can remember him through his siblings.

These things happen. When they happen so severely, sometimes there is nothing that you or your vet or even God can do to change it unfortunately. Hopefully you will find consolation in the fact that he is no longer suffering, and I'm sure he is very grateful for the help you did try to give him. :)