cutting mice before feeding [Archive]

debcash

10-15-2005, 08:54 PM

I just thought I'd pass along a recent experience on this...

When I first got my hatchling from Kathy Love, she mentioned to me about cutting through the skin on pinkies backs before feeding. It seems to help the snakes digest more readily. In additional, last year a study was done by one of the members here that proved that the hatchlings that were fed cut mice to grew at a much quicker rate than their other clutch mates.

Well, I had been great about cutting the pinkies for the first several months, but about 3 weeks ago things got very busy for me...I was rushing through feedings, and didn't cut the pinkies/fuzzies for several feedings. Over that two week period, out of my 44 snakes, I had 5 regurges (I had had none when I was cutting the mice).
As soon as I realized what was happening I went back to cutting the mice and this is now the second feeding with no regurges.

Does anyone else cut the mice before feeding??

Khaman

10-15-2005, 09:13 PM

After an article in the SAC newsletter I have cut all my hatchlings meals. I have seen a marked improvement in growth from previous years.

KatieL

10-15-2005, 10:48 PM

As soon as I switched Sienna to f/t, all of her mice were snipped, and my other 2 have had snipped mice from day one with me.

Sienna is quite big now, at 3+ feet and well over 150 grams (and her first birthday was last week). I'm all for the mice snipping method.

jazzgeek

10-15-2005, 11:00 PM

My X-Acto knife is right next to my tongs. I slice down the spine religiously, even the adult mice that I feed to JD, who as an '04, is over 3.5 feet long now.

And no, I don't powerfeed. Hatchlings/juvies are fed every 5 days, sub-adults/adults are fed every 7-10 days.

Along with the standard feeding tips (feed in a separate container than the viv, make sure the f/t temp is as close as possible to the "live temp", etc.), I tell noobs to "slice yer mice".

regards,
jazz

MegF.

10-16-2005, 09:50 PM

I cut all the mice for every snake but my big amel. He doesn't need any help with digesting! He's plenty big already :) I bought a pair of little sewing scissors for the purpose. One for the corns, one for the Green Trees.

CopperCornsnake

10-16-2005, 10:01 PM

Hey I have a question of my own...
I've been told to 'slice my mice' down the back but not exactly sure how to go about it. Should I do it before they are thawed or after?

jazzgeek

10-16-2005, 10:05 PM

Should I do it before they are thawed or after?Take a razor blade to an ice cube, and then to your thumb; the results should approximate slicing a rodent frozen vs. thawed. :grin01:

regards,
jazz

MegF.

10-16-2005, 10:11 PM

Thaw, then snip crosswise down the back in 3 or 4 places. It makes a little "v" shaped cut with the bottom of the "v" facing the tail of the mouse. I can usually make 3 in a pinky and 4 on everything else.

debcash

10-16-2005, 10:14 PM

I have a pair of 'kitchen scissors' I keep in the snake room. I snip across the back 3-4 times for each pinkie after it is thawed.

Mary-Beth

10-17-2005, 09:34 AM

Yep I cut all of mine too. I also make a cut on their heads - through the skull and all.

Preita

10-18-2005, 03:51 PM

I've never done it before but Im going to start. Sounds like its just easier on the snake and even if they dont need it, it doesnt hurt.

I love the info on this board. It makes it easier to give your snake the best possible life.

Hurley

10-18-2005, 04:11 PM

For anyone wishing to view some of the data, I just clipped a few pics for fun...

Red = control group - no cuts
Blue = 2 cuts, skin only
Yellow = 4 cuts, skin only
Green = 2 cuts with cavity perforation (chest)
Purple = average of the 3 cut groups combined

+/- = 1 standard deviation...

http://cccorns.com/freepics/05Oct/averages.jpg

http://cccorns.com/freepics/05Oct/chartweight.jpg

http://cccorns.com/freepics/05Oct/chart.jpg

Slippery Ernie

10-18-2005, 05:06 PM

DANG! Look at that.

Clinton is going to get some sliced-up pinkies tonight.

Great post!

Silvae

10-18-2005, 05:14 PM

Hmm, I'd never heard about this method before, even after doing lots of research. I've only had Louis five days and he had his first meal recently, though, so it's not too late to start.

Question: how deep should the cuts be made? I don't want to end up disembowelling the mouse by accident.

Hurley

10-18-2005, 05:34 PM

If you cut over the neck and chest, dorsally (over the back), you have little risk of guts popping out at you. You only need to perforate the skin, that's your main barrier. I usually make 2 to 4 little v-shaped snips from head to lumbar (back muscle) area.

Silvae

10-18-2005, 05:52 PM

Thanks, I'll start cutting the pinkies on his next feeding!

Preita

10-18-2005, 06:13 PM

Amazing Hurley! You could be the next Ross Perot with all the charts!

But really, that is excellent information! Anyone who sees that is deffinately going to start cutting those mousers.

Thank you for putting up such wonderful information, Im sure it took a while! Its greatly appreciated :D

CameraGeek

10-18-2005, 06:22 PM

"I usually make 2 to 4 little v-shaped snips"

What did you use to make the snips? X-acto knife? Very small scissors?

Hurley

10-18-2005, 06:31 PM

I've got a small pair of curved sharp tipped iris scissors, but any small, sharp-tipped sewing scissor would work just as well. You can also tear pinky/fuzzy skin very easily by just pinching it on either side of where you want the break to be and pulling. Guaranteed no cuts into the abdomen that way. No special equipment required (other than a non-squeamish stomach).

cornykids

10-18-2005, 06:56 PM

She just thought we were being gross! But we showed her this post and she said we are going to start cutting tonight. Thank you for the information.

Roy Munson

10-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Maybe we could get the big frozen rodent distributors to pre-perforate their products. :)

BabyMowgli

10-18-2005, 08:08 PM

Hi,
I just now learned about this cutting the mice technique and I was wondering, if I don't cut the pinky and he eats it fine, should i just keep not cutting, or should i start cutting it?

Bobo's Mama

10-18-2005, 08:12 PM

He will probably eat it just fine whether you cut the mouse or not. Cutting the mouse makes it easier for your snake to digest the mouse AFTER he has eaten it. Not to be gross, but it is so his stomach acid doesn't have to work as hard at digesting the mouse. Cutting through the skin makes him digest faster, at least that is what I have learned from this. Please, someone correct me, if I'm wrong.

BabyMowgli

10-18-2005, 09:06 PM

Awesome, I will have to suck it up next week and cut his pinky then, I only want what is best for my little buddy! Thanks for the info!

Roy Munson

10-18-2005, 09:32 PM

In the old days, I used to feed live prey exclusively. I remember that some of the mice got a little torn up in the feeding process. I wonder if the snakes' tiny teeth did enough tearing to make it analogous to the cutting of f/t by a keeper. I would think that the act of pulling the prey into their jaws would cause little tooth penetration into the carcass, but subduing prey may be a rougher affair. I doubt that my thought is correct, but it's just a thought... :shrugs:

LizardMom

10-18-2005, 11:37 PM

Thanks for a great idea, and especial thanks to Hurley for the statistics. Looks like I buy a pair of "pinking shears!" :grin01:

Slippery Ernie

10-19-2005, 09:01 AM

heh, "pinking shears". I think I'll get some too. I pulled out my sharpest pocket knife and sliced away last night. Man that skin is hard to get through. Lets just say I saw some guts and a head popped :eek1: Lesson one: Don't hold the head with hemostats while cutting.

Hurley, how often did you feed the snakes in your study? How old were they?

Hurley

10-19-2005, 11:32 AM

They all ate on the same schedule, once every 5 to 7 days (most often 7 days). The hatchlings were fed 15 times, so the study ran from hatch to 15 feedings. They were allowed to skip only one feeding (like for shedding) at a time or else they were dropped from the study if they skipped 2 or more. I wanted to keep things as controlled as possible, so only steady feeders were included.

They were randomly assigned to a group, some hatchlings from each clutch were in each group, so there shouldn't be any genetic variation leading to the results.

debcash

10-19-2005, 03:50 PM

Hurley -
Thanks! I read it in the news letter awhile back and couldn't remember who had done the study. We have so many new corn snake folks on the forum now that I thought it would be helpful to mention it and its great to see the data again - what an amazing difference!
Are there some other studies underway this year?
Thanks!
Deb

Hurley

10-19-2005, 06:36 PM

The 2005 season was so darn hectic this year that I didn't get to run anything, but I've got some planned for 2006. :) That means several clutches aren't going to sell until the studies are over. That's where I ran into problems this year. Hatchlings sold off before I could do anything. :sidestep:

There will be a delay on selling this season. ;) I'll let you know the results when I have them. :D

CornLuv

10-19-2005, 07:22 PM

[B]Man.. I don't think I'd have the stomache to cut a mousy :( But.. sooner or later, I do plan on recieving a hatchling anyways! When I had gotten my first corn.. he was 3 months old, and I wasn't told to cut down the backs of his pinkies.. although by the time he was 4 months old.. he had already beeen big enough for fuzzies.

JoannaD

10-19-2005, 10:15 PM

If you have continued this with some of the 2004 holdbacks do their growth rates seem to surpass previous yearlings- i.e. can you compare with old records? Also did you have holdbacks from any of the group that you fed without cutting the skin? If so did you then begin cutting the skin on their food and did their growth rate increase or even catch up to the others?

I am wondering if the effect only works if you begin doing this from the beginning and can small snakes "catch up".

Sorry lots of questions but I am intrigued. I hope my quesions are clear.

Thanks,
Joanna

Hurley

10-19-2005, 10:21 PM

My holdbacks from 2004 after the study all went on cut mice, like the rest of the collection. I can only tell you generalities, since I quite measuring past 15 meals. They seem to be able to handle larger meals and seem to gain weight "quickly" compared to what I'm used to. This is very subjective, obviously, since I am not measuring growth rates at this point. I guess my thoughts were (for the older ones) that it can't hurt and may help. It would be interesting to split up "keepers" to 2 groups and watch them over a year or two. So far, I haven't taken this one on.

:D

edit to add:

Oh, forgot about the part where you asked if they catch up later. I can't answer this (although I suspect that yes, they would speed up as the available nutrition is increased) specifically because my holdbacks were all from the other groups. I make it a point to hold back the best eating, largest hatchlings when possible. Since the control group was "runty" compared to the others, I didn't end up holding any back. :rolleyes:

JoannaD

10-19-2005, 10:35 PM

I wonder about more overweight snakes if people start doing this with snakes that are at a healthy adult weight.

I did cut into the backs of the fuzzies that I fed my 05s tonight! And I plan on trying this with my 04s too!

I must say I find cutting mice easier and less messy when they are frozen. I have been using an old fashioned razor blade to cut pinkies into pieces for my baby garters for a little while now.

Thanks again

Joanna

El Jefe

10-19-2005, 10:37 PM

Connie,
I LOVE the study....so when are you submitting it to Journal of Herpetology or Copeia? :)

Hurley

10-19-2005, 11:03 PM

When I get a real statistician to work the stats. ;) She will help me out with that after we've finished the stats on my "real" study (for work). LOL That one is a bit larger.

I'm still trying to make it through her book on statistics (entitled "Statistics for Health Professionals" by Susan Shott...a great read if you are masochistic and like this stuff, her 2nd edition is in the works now...) Hopefully soon I'll have edjumacated myself well enough on the subject to not have to consult the statistician for future experiments. I'll get it submitted someday, when I get the time. Probably to the Journal for Herpetological Medicine and Surgery or one of the others you mentioned. So much stuff to do, so little time. Darn this "real" job.

Hurley

10-19-2005, 11:07 PM

On the obesity issue, I don't think it's as big an issue for adults (despite the fact that you could always just feed them less often if it becomes an issue). I think they tend to do a better job digesting their meals anyway. They eat a much lower % of their body weight with each meal and aren't churning food through asap to keep growing like the hatchlings. I doubt that it makes much of a difference in total calories digested for adults. I think it does make it easier for them to do so, and quicker, but I doubt it affects them to the extent that it does hatchlings.

I believe the largest benefit is in those guys on pinkies up through fuzzies, where you are trying to get them over that hump to where they really start to grow (generally at fuzzy size). It will be interesting if someone runs a test looking at growth rates followed out for 3 or so years on a group.

poppycorn

10-21-2005, 11:36 PM

Can I ask how many snakes were in each group?
Did each treatment group contain the same number of snakes from each clutch? It's a cool study, just intrigued by the statistics and what the options are for analyzing the data.
And yes, I always clip the pinkies.
Marsha

ultimuttone

10-21-2005, 11:51 PM

After reading this thread I decided to cut the mice this feeding. I don't know about anyone else who is just trying this, but my little guys ate quicker than they ever have! Apparently not only will it be better for them, but they liked it.

Bobo's Mama

10-22-2005, 01:05 AM

After reading this thread through a few times, I also decided to cut for the first time. I think it really enticed my little guy. He kept biting it before he actually started to eat it. Although he did eat his peach fuzzy backwards this time. :crazy02:

rhinecat

10-22-2005, 02:52 AM

Wow, how intriguing!

Hurley, have you tried using the statistical software packages like SPSS or Minitab? You don't actually need to know a whole lot about stats to make them work, and they put out all the science-y info people want to see.

Hurley

10-22-2005, 10:35 AM

Yes, each clutch was evenly divided into the 4 groups. The groups started out at n=15/16 from 3 clutches. Because of the strict "no more than 1 refusal ever, even with shedding" rule, the numbers that completed all 15 feedings with never more than one refusal (offering food every 5 to 7 days) ended up pretty evenly distributed across clutches at n=5/6.

Here's the messy graph with all cases showing. Red = control, Blue = 2 cuts, Green = 2 cuts plus cavity perforation, Yellow = 4 cuts.

http://cccorns.com/freepics/05Oct/AllSubjects.jpg
(forgive the 1 through 16 on this graph, I didn't assign the first entry to 0 which was the prefeeding / hatch weight)

You can see the trend, even with the busy graph. You've got some of the lower end of the test groups ending up lower than the top 2 in the red group, but the trend is visible, even on this graph. Those areas where you see drops in some hatchlings' weights generally coincided with shedding and skipping one meal.

For comparison, here is the graph again showing the averages of the groups and purple = averages of all test groups for comparison to the controls.

http://cccorns.com/freepics/05Oct/chartweight.jpg

This makes things a little cleaner and easy to see.

I am definitely interested in running this study again to ensure it can be duplicated and am interested in anyone wishing to run the same study independently on their own hatchlings. Feel free to contact me at CCCorns@gmail.com. The results were pretty dramatic. Much more so than I expected to see, quite honestly. I don't doubt that the experiment can be duplicated with similar results, but I would like to have more numbers. :D You can always use more numbers. ;)

Hurley

10-22-2005, 10:38 AM

I'm actually getting SPSS loaded up on my computer here sometime in the next couple weeks. I'm working with a statistician for my other project, but throwing this one in as a sideline to get publishable stats.

I'll update things as it progresses. :) I ran standard deviations and things, but I just don't trust Excel for stat work, so I'm waiting on the SPSS program.

Sinsational

03-27-2010, 03:35 PM

I know this is a VERY old post, but I cannot see the chart, which I would love to take a look at. Does anyone have a copy of it?

Nroc

03-28-2010, 09:29 PM

I cut them all.

carnivorouszoo

03-29-2010, 08:35 AM

Well, I had been great about cutting the pinkies for the first several months, but about 3 weeks ago things got very busy for me...I was rushing through feedings, and didn't cut the pinkies/fuzzies for several feedings. Over that two week period, out of my 44 snakes, I had 5 regurges (I had had none when I was cutting the mice).
As soon as I realized what was happening I went back to cutting the mice and this is now the second feeding with no regurges.

Does anyone else cut the mice before feeding??

Huh, That is odd! For months I fed without cutting, ok more like a year, then my little amel mot het caramel stripe regurged and ever since I have been cutting. No issues in any of my snakes and their poos look much healthier too. I find it very strange since nothing would cut the rodents in the wild. . . have corns been handled by men long enough to really need this kind of assistance? I just don't think so . . . :shrugs:

carnivorouszoo

03-29-2010, 08:40 AM

Jadie.Glitch

03-29-2010, 09:24 AM

I'd like to see the charts and examples too... this is very interesting.

I also have a question to add: I breed my own food and feed pre-killed (if they have their eyes open they get a good, clean, thump so they aren't a danger to my snakes)... So once they've passed I would have no problem cutting, but what would I do with pinks and fuzzies? I don't know if I could thump something that small, and I KNOW I could never cut something that was alive.

I know it's not "cake and daisies" being eaten alive, but I don't feel so bad because the snake is doing it, which happens all the time in the wild, and none of my snakes are "lolly-gaggers". They all get it done and over with and don't play around with it.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or should I just continue to feed as-is and only cut the one that I can make sure have died first?

Ntkufreak

04-10-2010, 12:04 PM

I'm glad this got bumped - requesting the chart again as well, if anyone still has it. :)

Jenn_Tigercat

04-10-2010, 01:19 PM

Hmmm this is really interesting. I may have to cut the pinks for my little girl and see if it helps her to start growing. I would love to see the charts as well.

Sinsational

04-10-2010, 03:14 PM