Oops

[bizzy]

I recently found this site, and it looks like just about in time. I have 2 corns, 2 years old, who I have been keeping in a 45 long tank together. To make a long story short, last week I came in and discovered that they were in the process of procreating. I figured that I had better separate them, but now what? From what I have read so far the first answer is "Get the book".. Any other advice?:confused:

[Outlaw]

I don't think there is any reason to separate them, and no need for an "Oops"
My own male and female corns appear to be quite happy to live together in the same enclosure. If there are no other females around he should be quite content, and she will be glad of the company.

Yes, they do appear to like being together.

Look out for the pre-laying shed, then remove the male if you are in any way concerned.

[Serpwidgets]

I think there are many reasons to separate them, and I urge you to do so.

This time of year the forums see so many "oops" posts and then later we see so many "my female (who was WAY too small to be bred) is egg bound" posts. And then we see people saying, "It's ok to keep them together. As long as you feed separately nothing bad can happen."

The fact is that they can get stressed from being housed together. Just because you don't notice anything 'wrong' doesn't mean that they're not having any problems as a result.

If you had a dog would you feed it the cheapest possible dog food regardless of the fact that other, higher-priced dog foods are better for it? Or would you feed it whatever you thought would give it the best nutrition?

Regardless of 'appearances' it is a good idea to separate them.

[jim]

how many snakes live communally in the wild??? none, that i know of, and there are probably reasons for this. snakes are SOLITARY creatures. (go see clint boyer's website if you doubt this- he has a picture gallery of corn cannibalism) ---jim

[Outlaw]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not true that garter snakes gather in their hundreds around the mating season?

And I would be interested to know how I can tell if either of my snakes are stressed out with each other if they show no outward signs of being so.:confused:

[Iris]

well if they're gathering only for mating, you kind of answered it youself there. They don't actually like LIVE together
and there's not really any clear signs of stress other than maybe not feeding as well and as often as usual
it's just always better to house them separately in my opinion

[Ares]

I've read a ton of messages like this and there is always hostility
in between the replys.
There will always be strong OPINIONS on both sides. I stress the
word opinions because thats what they are and U can take it or
leave it, it's up to u.

Here's how I see it, I agree with Serpwidgets and Jim but if Outlaw disagrees
then thats fine thats his opinion and I respect that.

Peace and Love;)

[Serpwidgets]

Originally posted by Outlaw
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not true that garter snakes gather in their hundreds around the mating season?

It is true... that one very specific type of garter snake, which lives in a very high latitude where there are very few "safe" places to winter... yes this specific type of garter snake does. But that's apples and oranges... it is a rare exception, not the rule.

And I would be interested to know how I can tell if either of my snakes are stressed out with each other if they show no outward signs of being so.:confused:

You can't always tell... that's the real problem. :(

[jim]

ares,
i'm going to partially agree with you and partially disagree with you.in some instances i believe there can be right and wrong opinions and in some cases there are not. in the case of religion i think that no opinion can be refuted as there is no clear empirical evidence to deny any claim that christianity/judaism/islam/buddhism/etc. is the "true" word of god. in any case of that nature i will never refute anyone's opinion. now in any case where an opinion can be upheld by incontrovertible evidence i believe that there can be right and wrong opinions. i.e.-- in the 16th century the universe was geocentric by popular opinion. only through the collection of evidence contrary to this was this "truth" overturned.
now, in this vein of logic: if, as a pet owner, the well-being of our pets is our paramount responsibility, then putting them in harm's way in any instance would be an illogical conclusion. in my belief, there is sufficient evidence (possible cannibalism and digestive problems) that housing multiple snakes together poses a threat to their well-being, which makes the opinion that they can be housed together completely indefensible. (the same applies for live-feeding) --- anxiously awaiting replies, jim
p.s. it is the "opinion" of many people that african-americans/gays/jews/arabs/etc. are inferior and/or deserving of maltreatment. my point is, that some opinions should be argued and if found false, be discarded.---jim

[Outlaw]

Yes, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but my decision to keep a male and female cornsnake in the same enclosure was not made entirely by choice. Unfortunately space for another vivarium is simply not available. As I said earlier, the male snake was an unwanted pet and I agreed to take it.
I have 3 vivariums in the main room of the house. It's the only place the animals receive the full attention that they deserve.
The first, and largest houses my son's Cali King. Then there's a slightly smaller one with the two corns, and finaly another for the chameleon.

If a second batch of eggs is laid next month, as I suspect there will be, I will then give serious consideration to separaring them.
But where I will keep the male in future is at the moment a problem for me. He's an attractive and friendly animal, and I have no desire to part with him.
The only solution I can think of at the moment is to rack one on top of the other, but again the problem is space.

[Iris]

I really really really don't mean to sound mean or rude...but maybe you shouldn't have taken that unwanted snake in if you didn't have room for it....

[Outlaw]

No offence taken Iris.

I guess I'm just a big softy when it comes to animals.
I find it so hard to say NO.

Go easy on me, I'm new to this, and I really AM one of the good guys.

Perhaps I should gracefully bow out of this discussion. I'm not looking for any heat, just trying to join in.

[Iris]

Well I think most of the people here are just concerned for your snakes and what they were saying was kind of like.."gentle scolding." :)
It's great that you took in an unwanted snake but next time I'm sure you will give it much more thought and consideration before you make a decision.
Some people do house multiple snakes together, yes I know, but if you have the time/resources and are willing to make the effort to get what is best for your snake(s) I think individual housing is always a great idea.
I do understand your inability to resist animals. I'm like that too except my mom kinda has final say on what comes into this house..and she spends a lot of her time saying "no." :)
Best of luck with your herps

[Brian]

I do not consider myself a novice anymore when it comes to snakes, but I have a lot to learn. I have two Corns, a male Blizzard and a female Okee. I also have two Kings, a male striped albino and a female banded albino. The Corns live together in a 30 long. The Kings, for obvious reasons, have their own pads!

The only time I separate the Corns is for feeding. Then they are back together. They are healthy, very docile, and actually seem to enjoy each others company.

I too just found them "doing the deed" last night. So I would expect my first batch of eggs in the next several weeks.

What I am saying is, I don't have problems affording the proper accessories to make my pets lives comfortable. But, and they may be the exception to the rule, they seem very content with each others company.

Enjoy and respect.

[Outlaw]

Although Cornsnakes are decended from the wild Red Rat Snake, they are now a truly domesticated reptile and "almost" a different species. All the arguements about snakes not living together in the wild are very valid, but the cornsnake has never seen the wild and never will. I was relieved to hear that I'm not alone in my theory about housing two snakes in the same enclosure.
I wish my namesake "Brian" the very best of luck with his first clutch of eggs, and look forward to hear the outcome.
My female had her pre laying shed yesterday, so with a bit of luck the two "Brians" will be sharing the same experience very soon.
I only hope that I don't repeat my previous mistakes.
It would be interesting to compare notes with the other Brian, either by e-mail or PM.

[Missymonkey]

If your two snakes have been living together for two years and not getting into trouble with each other, and if you don't mind having the pitter patter of little snakes once in a while. then why is it so bad to have them together? It seems to have been working fine for bizzy. I always thought it was a play it by ear thing, because cohabitating seems to work for some snakes and not for others...

[Outlaw]

But that's the point I've been trying to make all along.
Only not too many people appear to agree with me.

Perhaps that's why I'm called the Outlaw.

[Alicia]

I think that this topic is one where people will have to agree to disagree. I personally do not keep any of my snakes together and I have been keeping snakes and other herps for 20+ years. I do know people who keep Corns together and have had no problems, I just don't want to take the risk. I just recently purchased an Amel (Phoebe) and the reason she was for sale is because she ate 2 other corns that were housed with her. It is sad but true, it can and does happen. I won't have any problems with her because she is housed alone. I never recommend that anyone keep their corns together only that if they decide that they must, use a large enclosure and feed them away from each other. I hope everything goes well for those who choose to house them together, just use caution:)


Alicia

[Serpwidgets]

Although Cornsnakes are decended from the wild Red Rat Snake, they are now a truly domesticated reptile and "almost" a different species. All the arguements about snakes not living together in the wild are very valid, but the cornsnake has never seen the wild and never will. I was relieved to hear that I'm not alone in my theory about housing two snakes in the same enclosure.IMO they are not "truly domesticated" at this point. We are working in that direction, but I think a lot of (maybe most?) cornsnakes are only a handful of generations from wild ancestors at best.

Also, I really don't think anyone has been breeding for "corns that like to cohabitate." There have only been a few generations of selective breeding--almost all of which has been to select for color and pattern variations, as opposed to much more complex and subtle traits like behavior. To suggest that this is supposed to have turned a non-social animal into one that enjoys cohabitation is absurd.

[Matt L]

AGREED!

It's going to take alot longer to breed the wild out of the snake! It seems to me that most canabalism in corn snakes occurs in young snakes, but for me the only time for togetherness is for breeding purposes'.

[jim]

my reasons for not feeding live and not keeping snakes in the same tank can be quite easily summed up. i will never have to say oops my snake is dead because another snake or a rodent killed it. its not one of those things that can be remedied after the fact so to be proactive about it is the only acceptable solution as far as my snakes are concerned. that about covers it for me.... jim

[Outlaw]

Jim.

That is one area in which we are in complete agreement. I have never, and will never feed my snakes on live food. That is one risk I am definitely not prepared to take. It is most certainly the F/T option for me. As I've said all along, and bizzy and Brian would appear to agree, housing the snakes together is personal choice, be it right or wrong, but to introduce a full grown defensive mouse I feel is simply asking for trouble. Throughout the last four years my female has been fed on the full range of mouse sizes, from pinkies to full grown mice. On one occasion I tried rat pups and they were readily accepted. When rodents were unavailable I tried a form of snake sausage, and although the first feed was taken, subsequent meals were refused. I intend to continue with F/T mice, but if you have any views on alternative feeds I would be interested to hear them.

[gekko1]

in general people house corns seperately, few house them together. theres your majority.

[jaxel]

Well I have a question that is and isn't along these lines. Is it bad for males to be housed with other males and females to be housed with other females, or is this a very stressful environment also?

[Missy]

Well I have a question that is and isn't along these lines. Is it bad for males to be housed with other males and females to be housed with other females, or is this a very stressful environment also?

i personally would not house 2 males together, purely because they fight around breeding season inparticular, whether theres a female around or not, they will fight and the majority of the time it ends with the smaller male dead. housing 2 females together should be fine, they do not fight, but along with a lot of other people i do not house more than one per viv, only to breed, will a male and female live together for a little while.
:D

[oldhand]

Not another 200 posts on this subject.
Please read the folloewing that hurley has very kindley sticked, then make up your own minds. :)

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17308