Take him back?

[kimbyra]

Howdy Folks!
I really need your opinions on this one.
About a month ago I bought an adult male normal corn, who may, or may not be about six years old. He won't eat. He was in shed when I bought him, so I didn't worry the first week (until after he shed). No matter what I've tried - different size mice (from fuzzies to adult), dipping in chicken broth, leaving over night, leaving him in a closed tub with just a f/t, he just isn't interested in food. (I've tried every four or five days.) I've even increased the temp slightly. The locally owned pet shop where I bought him said not worry, it happens, they can go without eating up to a year (?!) before you should worry, and he was eating before because the woman that they bought him from buys mice all the time.... Could he have health prob's? Am I missing something? Should I go bug the guy about taking him back? Erg! :bang:

[kimbyra]

If I wasn't clear before -
He has never eaten for me, and the pet shop didn't exactly answer my question as to when, if ever, they fed him. I think they had him there about 2 weeks, maybe more, because I go in there a lot.

[Roy Munson]

This is breeding season, so it wouldn't be surprising at all that this guy has no appetite. Sometimes younger males will eat throughout the breeding season, but from what I've read, most older males will at least skip a few meals. As long as his weight is good, I wouldn't worry if he fasts for a couple of months. :)

[Taceas]

I agree with Roy, most of my larger adult males skip meals this time of year regardless if there's a female in the room or not. Just their time of year to be "twitterpated". I've had males go nearly 3 months without eating before, so they're capable of quite stretch so long as they were in good health to begin with.

I'd say offer food every 10-14 days, instead of every 4-5. Harassing him with it every 4-5 may have the negative effect of him associating being messed with and food. Something which is rare, but it can happen.

I typically feed my adult males on an every 14 day schedule anyway. Since they don't lay eggs, they tend to get a bit chubby on an every 7 day feeding schedule, and so far an every 14 seems to serve them quite well. Plus, that way you're not thawing out mice to waste as often.

And bottom line, don't stress about it. I know that's easier said than done, but its an adult snake, chances are its not going to wither away. Plus given the age and the sex, its all pretty plausible why he's not eating right now. Don't doctor the mice with broth and other things, or you may get him liking something you don't want to repeat for every feeding. Just offer 1 f/t adult mouse every 2 weeks until he starts eating again, which I'm most positive that he will.

[kimbyra]

Thanks so much for your responses! He is freindly and mild, and I would like to keep him. Its just so frustrating since he's never eaten. If he doesn't eat the mouse I've left in there now, I'll try again in 10 days. I hope its just the season, and not a problem. I was wondering why someone would bring in a 6? year old (gentle!) snake, but then again I've seen lots of ten year old sweety pie dogs at the shelter... Thanks again Dean and Misty for easing my mind.

[Tyger9791]

The locally owned pet shop where I bought him said not worry, it happens, they can go without eating up to a year (?!) before you should worry,

up to a year?!? i dont think it's quite that long. but yeah they can go for awhile without eating. it's frustrating i know...my male grey rat just ate a fuzzy today after "fasting" for 4 weeks...i thought he was going to starve! and he's only 6 months old. sometimes these guys just decide not to eat for a bit for no good reason.

i volunteer at an animal shelter and yeah i've seen dogs dropped off for the lamest reasons. someone dropped off a 5 year old AKC cocker spaniel because they said he was too hyper. the dog is as calm as can be, as calm as an old hounddog laying on a porch calm. i dont know what they considered hyper...right now we're mostly getting in older females that are pregnant. gotta love irresponsible dog owners who dont get their dogs spayed so they get pregnant and the owners just drop them off at the shelter. :twoguns:

[cornsnakemaster28]

Ha Ha Ha, I'm sorry i just have to laugh they say they can live up to a year..???? I've heard up to 3 months about, but a year!! I'm goin wit everyone on this since it's mating season he may be a little excited.

[Roy Munson]

I'm not saying it's a healthy thing, but a large corn could probably go a year without starving to death.

[colinmcc]

A year would be a bit excessive.

But, at this time of year, a few skipped meals is normal for an adult male. Both mine have been patchy with their feeding for the last month .... especially the oldest one.

If he's a good healthy weight at the moment I wouldn't really start to worry until you hit three months or so ..... :)

[ghosthousecorns]

You probably already thought of this, but maybe the previous owner was giving him live mice and he just doesn't want the f/t? If not I'd go with what everyone else is saying about the breeding season refusal to eat being a common thing for adult males.

[Roy Munson]

A year would be a bit excessive.
Well, of course. No responsible keeper would let things go that far. All I meant was that if Blutengel/Barbara's 1100g Miami didn't eat for a year, I think he'd survive. :)

[your_only_nightmare]

im guessing that that is why my male is not eating aaswell, breeding season, normally he is an excellent eater, but at the moment he just ignors it, i know that temps allright becuase my female is eating fine. im not to worried but if hes not eating by the end of the month should i be?

[kimbyra]

Good morning folks!
There are a couple of things that concern me.
First is the unknown. I don't know when the last time he ate was, if he ate live, if he's a good weight for his unknown age, if he's lost weight, and what an adult healthy corn even looks like (my others are all '05). He could be famished looking and I wouldn't know. The pet shop says they don't know if the lady fed him live, but they also said they're sure she did because the lady was buying f/t from them, but I'm thinking she may have had other pets, or they could be full of it. I don't want him if I have to feed him live. I didn't buy a snake to have to feed live. Its not like I would be feeding him a live pinky, he's a big snake. I would take him back if I new that is all he would eat. 1The other thing I'm worried about is that this morning there was a poo smear. It was good size, but thin, and may have been a little on the green/yellow side. :bang:

[kimbyra]

Oops - I didn't explain. The main reason I'm worried about the poo is that he hasn't eaten. It shouldn't be there should it?

[Roy Munson]

It can be surprising how long they can hold in some feces. You've got to remember that feces also contains metabolic wastes which are produced whether the snake is eating or not.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I would never think of getting rid of a snake because it demands live food. If you are really thinking this way, you should never buy another snake again, because the possibility always exists that a snake may never accept live, or that it may start demanding live only, for no good reason, at any time. :(

[kimbyra]

Dean,
Will one of my '05's suddenly go off of f/t and demand live? If so I guees I would have to try and get over my squeamishness to feeding live. I just wasn't prepared to get a problem adult. I'm glad to hear about them being able to defecate at any time. That puts my mind at ease a little. This is just so frustrating.

[kimbyra]

Should I try and feed him live? Or wait? :cry:

[Roy Munson]

Dean,
Will one of my '05's suddenly go off of f/t and demand live? If so I guees I would have to try and get over my squeamishness to feeding live. I just wasn't prepared to get a problem adult. I'm glad to hear about them being able to defecate at any time. That puts my mind at ease a little. This is just so frustrating.

It has happened to me with several of my '05s, so the possibility certainly exists. And I guess it's a matter of perspective, but I don't really call a live-demanding snake a problem feeder. It's a problem for me, I guess, but I can't blame the snake for demanding its natural prey type. I'm amazed that the vast majority will take f/t. I don't think scavenged prey makes up an appreciable portion of a wild corn's diet.

If the snake is at a healthy weight, I would wait 6-8 weeks before resorting to live. If the snake was an '05, I might try live earlier. :shrugs:

[kimbyra]

Thanks Dean! What is a healthy weight? I don't have a scale here, maybe I can figure another way to weigh him.

[Roy Munson]

Thanks Dean! What is a healthy weight? I don't have a scale here, maybe I can figure another way to weigh him.
I think a couple of photos might be good enough to try to determine if he's in a safe weight range for an extended fast. Make sure you place a reference object in the pics.

[kimbyra]

Well, I need to get a new camera, mine is broken. I need to buy a scale also, and come to think of it, I really need a rack system where I can control heat better than the uth's. There goes April's pay . :sobstory:
I just spent some time handling him, and he seems to be healthy as far as weight, girth, and response. Maybe I should chill and think about getting him a mouse. :eatsmiley

[kimbyra]

See whats frustrating to me, and why I've been griping so much, is that before I bought him I asked the pet shop, "Does he eat frozen, because I don't want to feed him live." They said, "Yes". I think I its understandable that I'm upset. So I have to ask myself, do I want to keep him even though I spent a lot of money and he was misrepresented to me. I suppose I do, because I like Dante, but that was a hard decision. I'll get a mouse and see if that was his problem all along. I guess I have to do that supervised; mice bite right? I tried to feed him f/t yesterday, should I wait, or just get the mouse?

[Roy Munson]

See whats frustrating to me, and why I've been griping so much, is that before I bought him I asked the pet shop, "Does he eat frozen, because I don't want to feed him live." They said, "Yes". I think I its understandable that I'm upset. So I have to ask myself, do I want to keep him even though I spent a lot of money and he was misrepresented to me. I suppose I do, because I like Dante, but that was a hard decision. I'll get a mouse and see if that was his problem all along. I guess I have to do that supervised; mice bite right? I tried to feed him f/t yesterday, should I wait, or just get the mouse?

If you say he's at a healthy weight, then what's the rush? Give him a few weeks at least. I hate to switch a snake to live for fear of acclimating them to that preferred prey type. But you know what? A snake eating f/t from one source may refuse f/t from another source. There may be no misrepresentation involoved. These guys ain't like cats-- who knows what's going through their pea brains when they decide to eat one thing, and not another? :shrugs:

[Taceas]

Here we go, frothing again. =P

To be honest, I've never met an adult snake that wouldn't take f/t. All of my adult snakes will eat live, pre-killed, f/t. They'll eat rats of the appropriate size, mice, hamsters, gerbils. The only thing they snub their noses at are day old chicks.

Like Dean had said, if you don't want to accept the possibility that feeding live may be a necessity at some point, then maybe snakes aren't for you. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

I've had to use live several times to get a reluctant feeder to eat. I've used live to spark the feeding in a post egg-laying female who didn't seem interested in f/t. They're a primitive brained animal and who knows when they're going to be turned onto the idea of live food. They're not that domesticated yet to accept whatever we throw at them. But for snakes, I'd say they're pretty darn good.

Feeding live pinks through fuzzies is a breeze for the most part. It's over quicker than you can shake a stick at. Feeding live adults poses potential hazards of biting to the snake, albeit in all the times I've fed live adults, I've never had it happen. But then again, I don't think accidents are on a timescale.

But luckily most snakes can be tricked into thinking its live with a pre-killed mouse and a pair of tongs. Unless you're squeamish about killing mice yourself. :rolleyes:

But like Roy said, I wouldn't worry about feeding live right now. Take a deep breath and relax first. It isn't all that big of a deal to get worked up about.

If you need him weighed and don't have a scale, I'm sure most vet offices would oblige you for free, I know mine locally doesn't mind. Just make sure the weight is in grams, which is what most of us are used to.

Most of my healthy sized males, depending on varying lengths, are 400-600grams. And that's on an every 10-14 day feeding cycle. I would say anything above 300g would be ok, which is the minimum weight at which females need to be to safely breed. And I've had smaller males than that do the breeding.

When its breeding season, they will fast, but I've never had any visibly lose weight and look thin. Most of mine will give it up after a couple of months and go back to regular eating. Some of mine may refuse 4-5 times in a row and then eat once and refuse some more. They're all different.

I think its just common sense on how they should look. Look at your younger ones, nice and round, it should look the same proportionally on adult snakes as well. You don't want the sides sunk in or the spine showing.

Here are some pics of my adult males of varying weights:

Vlad - 605g - 2001:
http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/Vlad/VladFeb06.jpg

Pepto - 340g - 2001:
http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/Pepto/Pepto061705A.jpg

Ungeheuer - 350g - 2002:
http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/images/males/Unge072605.jpg

Granite - 330g - 2003:
http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/Granite/GraniteMar06C.jpg

Cardiń - 185g - 2003: He's a small, short guy..
http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/Cardin/AmelBloodMar06.jpg

[Roy Munson]

Kimberly: My '05 blizzard female is a great grower, and usually a good feeder. She just ended a 16 day fast tonight. She demanded live for months, and I finally got her off them with dry-thawed f/t. So I gave that a shot tonight, and it worked (usually I use the soggy-thaw method). Was I happy that she refused multiple meals in those 16 days? No. Was I worried? Not really. And she has fewer excuses for fasting than your adult male. ;) You're at the obsessive stage. It will pass. :grin01:

[kimbyra]

Kimberly: You're at the obsessive stage. It will pass. :grin01:

Hee hee, thats true. :grin01:

[Roy Munson]

I forgot to mention that my very-healthy '03 male Upper Keys hasn't eaten in over three weeks. His intended should be shedding any time now. ;)

[kimbyra]

I don't have a girly for Dante, poor guy. I know he's looking for one too.

[Drizzt80]

Information to add to the discussion . . . The second year I bred ('03-'04), I brumated my only male and several females for the first time. He was taken off food the fifteenth of November. Had 10 weeks of being in brumation, and flat out refused every meal offered (weekly) out of brumation through the breeding season . . . He went from November 15th to May 13th without eating by his own choice. Interestingly enough he didn't shed during that time either, and ate 2 days after shedding in May. Granted 10 weeks of that time was at low metabolism brumation temperatures, but still, he went 6 months without eating. 3 1/2 were voluntary!

Here he is from December (out of brumation) at a healthy 756 grams:
http://www.dakotacorns.com/images/collection/SN001m.jpg

What's it all mean? I'd guess your male is "hot for teacher" right now, and doesn't want to eat.

D80

[Gintha]

My boys skip meals all the time, neither has eaten for a month (Treasure has totally snubbed food for 7 weeks now... little brat), Hunter is in blue, Treasure is in "find me a girl" stage LOL. I personally won't worry too much until its been 3 months. Treasure has lost some weight, but hes still around 330g, and Hunter has lost no weight, hes just reached 311g last weigh in =) Big boys hehe.

He'll eat when hes hungry =)

[kimbyra]

Thanks everyone!

[Gintha]

I've found that increasing photo-period in my vivs has helped them get hungry. Treasure had a light on his viv during normal daylight hours for a week, and yesterday he gobbled up a mouse =) This is the second time I've had to do this with him and both times its helped =) Not sure if that will help in your case, but might be worth a try =)

Hunter ate too... got a 55 inch skin off him today and SNAP no more mouse hehe. (Hes not 55 inches, just the skin was.. hes 47 inches approximately.)

[kimbyra]

Thanks. I do have a daylight time for him. I'll make sure I keep it on longer just to see. He still has eaten. My boy has got to be over 5 feet long! I'm going to try to feed him again tonight. WIsh me luck. :rolleyes:

[kimbyra]

I meant he still HASN'T eaten. Ugh.

[mourne]

I have a male that has refused food for 10 weeks now just weighed him today and he has lost 53g.

[discus]

Will the pet shop where you got him from give you the name of the Women that braught him in?
So you can find out info on him .
Also i have a snake that wont take anything but white Mice i have tried all colors but when he gets to the white one he strikes with no hesitation.

So maybe he has a color prefference
But i would say its the time of yr
My same snake went off food for three months (starting in March) every year since i got him except this yr.

[princess]

I have a lovely big male who has gone off his food the last 2 springs for about 2½ months. I say don't bother offering him any food more often than every 2 weeks like the others said and see how he goes.

[MegF.]

I wouldn't even worry a bit about an adult male off food. Mine goes off food and won't eat for 3 months at a time at this time of year and rarely loses more than 55 grams. He spends 24/7 cruising the viv so it's not like he's lying around. I would give this guy at least a couple of months and I'd bet you that one day you'll put him in his feeder box, start to drop in the f/t mouse and get your fingers taken off. He's a hefty 644 grams out of brumation and has only eaten one meal since he got out.

[bitsy]

I have a male who ate twice in seven months a few years back. His upset over a house move ran into the breeding season. He's now at the ripe old age of nineteen and still here to tell the tale, so please don't be so concerned about your fella. You don't need to take him back, feed him live or do anything else exotic. You just need to give him some space.

Honestly, please relax. Snakes can sense stress and if you work yourself into a froth he's going to feel it and it won't help. It really is completely normal for males to go off their food for weeks or months at a time in the early part of the year.

Break the circle and give him some peace. Leave him completely alone for a fortnight and do nothing other than spot clean if needed and change the water regularly. He won't go wild from lack of handling in two weeks and you both need a break!

[SnakeAround]

Well, of course. No responsible keeper would let things go that far. All I meant was that if Blutengel/Barbara's 1100g Miami didn't eat for a year, I think he'd survive. :)

Caught you in the act! :grin01: But you are so true!

:-offtopic Actually my miami boy had'n't eaten for 5 weeks until today; I decided to seduce him with a live 10 day old fuzzie, and he liked it, though he didn't want a second... I just want his metabolism to keep on going. I've been told (or at least that's what I understood) that if he doesn't eat at all, he will slim less than eating regularly but not too often. Snakes have a way of slowing down their metabolism if no meals or very little pass for a longer period. Just like people doing crash diets slow down their metabolism actually...