Evil mouse=no more live feeds!

[ickle_moose]

Argh, I feel so bad. Last night was the first time I tried feeding my new snow as when I got her I was told she hadn't eaten for a week and a half. Over here I can't get frozen rodents and to tell the truth had never killed a mouse before and couldn't bring myself to do it. So, stupidly telling myself that it'd be fine, she'd done it before, I put Luna in her feed box with little mouse.

It was awful, the mouse went straight for Luna and tried biting her all over, Luna was just trying to get away from it but in the feed box was nowhere to go. It happened really fast. She didn't even try striking or constricting, just look panicked and scared. I jumped in and had to pull the little monster off her :( Most of the bites didn't even harm the scales but it got her on the tail and a couple scales look a bit dodgy. I put Luna back in her viv and she went straight in her hide and hasn't come out since.

Well that removed my fluffy feeling about the mice! Those thing are going down! Horrible little thing was quickly despatched and is now frozen for next attempt. Am going to wait a good few days before disturbing Luna at all.

I know this is a bit of a gross topic but once this all happened I was just saying to myself 'ok, the killing mice for my snakes thing? I'm over it.' I love my snakes too much to risk this happening again.

Anyone else out there been through this?

[Lennycorn]

Where is "over here" ?? UK?? Because I thought their was a law of some sort about feeding live??.
But anyway, if the mice is small, sm hopper and under, just freeze them. If larger and you have to buy live one and you can bring yourself to do it, here a link to help you out. http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/
I never tried it yet but it's worth a look.

Good Luck :cheers:

[jazzgeek]

Vile vermin. As Tammy Jenkins' avatar states, "It's not that I like snakes, it's that I hate mice!" :grin01:

regards,
jazz

[ickle_moose]

'Over here' is Taiwan :) I checked out that website, very helpful. Now I just have to make more room in the freezer, am sure flatmates won't mind : :grin01:

[Joejr14]

Where is "over here" ?? UK?? Because I thought their was a law of some sort about feeding live??.
But anyway, if the mice is small, sm hopper and under, just freeze them. If larger and you have to buy live one and you can bring yourself to do it, here a link to help you out. http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/
I never tried it yet but it's worth a look.

Good Luck :cheers:

You do not just freeze mice that have hair. That's cruel. A simple bop on the head does the job just fine.

[JenC]

I just grab em by the hips or the chest and wack their head good up against the side of a table or soemthing...Stress relief right there..lol Sure i love furry animals too, but i love my snakes more and your right, its not worth loseing your snake:)

[kimbyra]

Uhmm... whacking them isn't great either (just my opinion, don't jump on me!). Have you thought about those nifty and cheap homeade baking soda/vinegar? or computer duster gas baggies in the other thread called something like "OMG I can't do it"?

[kimbyra]

Here is a quote from "canadian mike":
Quote: "While I won't judge the method you use to kill food for your animals....don't delude yourself into believing that "whacking" rodents on a hard surface or freezing young mice is euthanasia.
Its has been deemed cruel by every veterinary association and is punishable as a cruelty offence in most states and provinces....so if you do it don't use terms like "painless" or "euthanasia" because they don't apply.
If you are looking for a proper euthanasia method you can easily find them on line...the cheapest is cervical dislocation (look up how to do it properly!)"

I will find the link to the baking soda gas chamber, then post that as well.
I know that I will probably have to start breeeding my own feeders next year, and this is the method that I'm going with. I'm certainly not judging anyone, but this seems easy and painless. :cheers:
BTW, Hello poster from Taiwan!

[kimbyra]

Sorry for the triple post, but here is a cool way:
http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

[Serpwidgets]

Thumping may be "gross" to some, but I assure you that it is not cruel.

When I was 11 years old I went over the handlebars on my bike, planting my face on pavement, and was out cold for 15 minutes. I know from direct, personal, first-hand experience that being whacked so hard that you're knocked out does not involve any pain or suffering in any way.

Anyone who says it is cruel (most especially the vets/researchers who say so) needs to experience it themselves. :grin01:

[princess]

When I was 11 years old I went over the handlebars on my bike, planting my face on pavement


I did that when I was 18 and spent 2 days in hospital...5 days before my final high school exams!

-not the best timing!

[kimbyra]

I suppose I agree - if its done right. There have been posts where the thumping went wrong. Its none of my beeswax how you kill your snake food really. All I'm saying is that the baking soda/vinegar method seems quick, cheap, and very easy. I think thats how I'm going to go.

[PJ FF]

Since i breed all my mice and freez them I made a CO2 chamber. VERY easy and very affective.
Go get a plastic container with a tight fitting lid (I used a coffe thing*the big plastic one*) and drill a hole in the side of it near the bottom. Put the Co2 remote (cord) in there and seal it with something (I used hot glue.. caulk would probably work too)

Next drill a small hole in the lid of the container and run aquarium airline (the flexible clear plastic tubing used for bubblers) through the hole. Seal it like you sealed the remote line, and run the other end of the airline into a bucket of water. This is your exhaust line that keeps oxygen from getting back into the container.

[Serpwidgets]

Next drill a small hole in the lid of the container and run aquarium airline (the flexible clear plastic tubing used for bubblers) through the hole. Seal it like you sealed the remote line, and run the other end of the airline into a bucket of water. This is your exhaust line that keeps oxygen from getting back into the container.I couldn't help but picture a "mouse bong." :grin01:

But seriously, putting the other end into water to keep air from coming back in is pretty neat. :) (Not sure if it's necessary, I think the CO₂ is heavier than air and stays at the bottom. :shrugs: )

[PJ FF]

mouse bong, i like that. the reason I do that is so the can doesnt blow up when pumping the CO2 in. since it has to be air tight, pumping the co2 in without giving the oxygen would blow the top off. Once I put it in to fast and blew the top off and a mouse landed on the lid

[Serpwidgets]

I was going to mention that all methods are potentially cruel if not done right. ;)

I think these discussions are important to have. IMO it's at least somewhat other peoples' business, otherwise one would have to be against all animal cruelty laws to be consistent with that belief. But I just don't see thumping as inherently cruel. I also think CO2 is fine. Both cause loss of consciousness without any "suffering" which to me is the point of avoiding cruelty.

I'm not so sure about cervical dislocation, as I'm not convinced whether or not the mind is still active for some time before "death" occurs. I don't think that there's a method (other than first-hand experience) to measure whether or not this is "painful."

Personally I'd rather be thumped than constricted, and I might choose being thumped over being gassed. IMO constriction is a very unpleasant way to die and I think if we were doing it instead of the snake, it would definitely qualify as cruel. ;)

I wonder if they make little mouse-sized captive bolt guns. :sidestep:

[PJ FF]

I wonder if they make little mouse-sized captive bolt guns.
that would be very funny....... someone should make one

[kimbyra]

I don't really know what "cervical dislocation is"; I picture a little guillotine :rolleyes: , but it doesn't sound pleasant to me.

[Serpwidgets]

I don't really know what "cervical dislocation is"; I picture a little guillotine :rolleyes: , but it doesn't sound pleasant to me.It's simply "breaking the neck" by separating the cervical vertebrae. (It's what kills someone when they are hanged, if they are dropped far enough, otherwise they are strangled.)

With mice you hold their head in place (such as a pair of tweezers behind the skull to keep it from going backwards, or a pencil over the back of its neck pushing it down onto a counter) and then yank the tail.

I think it's at least better than death via dislocated cervix. ;)

[Jimmy Johnson]

When I have used "live" mice whacking worked quite well.
Grab that little bugger by the tail and whack it's head across the edge of the table.
Boom, instant.
BUT, if you feel you can't give it an adequate whack try a mouse trap.
Set the trap, grab the mouse and stick it's head on the trigger and WHACK...dead mouse.

[Taceas]

A mouse trap? Are you kidding me? Half the time they do nothing but cause undue pain and a slow death even in wild mice, which is why I've stopped using them for the most part.

To put it bluntly, if you can't kill a mouse by either CO2 or whacking...you don't need to be raising or buying live mice for snake food, simply put.

[Kitty]

I wonder if they make little mouse-sized captive bolt guns.


I just got this wicked mental image of Micky Mouse toting an uzi ... :grin01:

[MegF.]

A mouse trap? Are you kidding me? Half the time they do nothing but cause undue pain and a slow death even in wild mice, which is why I've stopped using them for the most part.

To put it bluntly, if you can't kill a mouse by either CO2 or whacking...you don't need to be raising or buying live mice for snake food, simply put.

The only time I haven't seen a mouse killed instantly in a trap is the glue trap. A well baited snap trap (such as with peanut butter that can't be lifted off easily) works quickly and effectively.

[scottrussell]

im not sure how effective just putting one in a pillowcase would be and swinging it into the floor. never tried it... i heard one guy say he just throws them against a wall as hard as possible. i don't kill my mice so i really don't have to do that...

[PJ FF]

WOW, there alot of people doing alot of stupid ways

[ickle_moose]

Well I was so annoyed at the little monster that I went the 'sock and swing' way on the euthanasia website, except I used a small clear plastic bag so I knew it's head was at the end. Very fast: mouse in bag, swing to edge of table, thump, done.

I can't even get baking soda over here, grrrr. Though I'd be worried I did it wrong, hard to tell if mouse is unconscious or dead (that may sound very daft but as I've never done it, that's what I wonder). Can't see the swing going wrong, just make sure you don't do it in a wimpy way. I thought about doing the 'pencil on neck, yank tail' thing, but they squiggle all over which makes me hesitate which is just what you don't want to do. Think all mine are going to get swung.

Luna is still in her hide. Haven't seen her come out since the biting incident, though she does change position from what I can see. She was such a sweet docile thing, I hope this doesn't change that. Though if I was shoved in a smaller house with a raving dog or something that kept biting me, I'd be pretty uncooperative with whoever did it too.

[Jimmy Johnson]

"To put it bluntly, if you can't kill a mouse by either CO2 or whacking...you don't need to be raising or buying live mice for snake food, simply put."


Don't quite know how to respond to that...simply strange
If someone doesn't use your approved method they have no right to get mice...... HMMMM


By the way, as stated above...
If I have to use "live" mice, I whack them.....
but I guarantee if you hold a mouse's head in a mouse trap that little sucker will be killed instantly.

[diamondlil]

small confession here, a few years ago when I was breeding gerbils I sometimes homed couples of 2 males or 2 females to friends or family, who raised them together with no problems. Then I ran down the colony and was eventually gerbil-less for a few years. I spotted a male trio of young adults in a small cage in the petshop and brought them home. I set them up in a 40gallon tank half full of a peat mix so they could burrow away happily.
one night there was a terrible commotion and I had to seperate them with a couple of sticks because they had suddenly turned on each other and ripped each other apart, the injuries were horrific, eyes hanging out and so on. It was a saturday night, I didn't know any co2 type stuff, and they were dying slowly in front of me, the boys were small children who I couldn't let wake up in the morning to see the results, so I did the plastic bag, 1 hard whack method as it was all I could think of. The gerbils were instantly out of pain and the boys never knew that their pets hadn't 'ran away in the night'.
I found the incident so traumatic that I wouldn't do it again willingly, and plan to use the co2 for my feeders, but I would definately vouch for it's effectiveness in an emergency, as long as you don't hesitate.

[BeckyG]

WOW, there alot of people doing alot of stupid ways

Well, that was a real constructive addition to this discussion.


Lina, I have a hard time grasping that you can't get baking soda in Taiwan. I'm not disbelieving you, it is just one of those things I can't get my mind around. Seems I use baking soda in nearly everything I bake, and couldn't imagine not having it around. Perhaps there is someone who could send you some.

[ickle_moose]

It's really really rare to even see an oven in anyone's home. People over here don'e bake! We got a toaster oven that's ok for cookies and such but we had to send off for it.

It's not as bad to get stuff here than it was in China though, I used to go to Shanghai (3 hour journey) just to get cheese. Mmmmm, cheese.

Anyway, back to snakes. Luna stayed in her hide all this time, and earlier today when I peeked she rattled her tail at me and hissed like a banshee. Then just now she gave me a total heart attack, I thought she'd had enough and found a way to escape. Turns out she's under the substrate, but I mean completely under. She normally pokes out her head and tail but now if you look in the tank, no snake! Should I be getting her out to get her used to me again? Or should I leave her some more days alone? She hasn't eaten since I got her, she's a year old though so I'm not too worried yet. It's something like 2 weeks since she last (supposedly) ate.

[sbourget]

A healthy snake can usually go a month or more without food before any serious bad things start happening, though it's really not recommended to let them go that long without food unless they are in brumation. (I haven't brumated my snakes yet so you'll have to ask someone else for more information on brumation.) As for handling her, I'd say yes, two days should be enough for her to have calmed a bit, just try not to be afraid of getting tagged, and don't 'reward' her by putting her back when she does something that makes you uncomfortable, wait until she's calm.
Mouse traps are classed as a quick-kill trap, similar to the Conibear trap used for foxes, wolves and other fur bearing animals. The requirement for these traps is that the bar come down on the head or shoulder with sufficient force to kill the animal within a very short amount of time. (I'm not sure the exact length) With the frailness of mouse bones, a mouse trap should shatter their skull (instant death), or crush their chest (spine broken, so no feeling, and the heart is compressed, death very quickly). A mouse trap is designed to kill mice, If it didn't work extremely well, then it wouldn't sell.

[kimbyra]

Snakes can go quite a while without eating just fine.
However, if you've left her alone for several days, you may want to take her out and try to feed her in a seperate container with a dead mouse already there in the corner. Just leave her for a while and step back to see if she eventually goes over to eat it. Sometimes the snakes do burrow completely. She will eventually come around once she gets used to the experiencing that you are not going to hurt her.

[aiden_punx]

ypu can always just break the neck..get a gd grip behind the head and grab the tail and pull its alot quicker and better ofr the mouse than being smacked against the wall then you can do what you want with it.