Is This A Baby Corn Snake?

[Bernd]

The other day I heard a shriek coming from my basement. I went downstairs and found my wife standing on a chair. This baby snake had managed to somehow get into our house. He is about six inches long.

We have two opinions as to what he might be. One is a baby Corn Snake and the other is a baby Brown Water Snake. My son would really like to keep him as a pet, so it is important that we figure out what he is so that we can give him the proper food and environment. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bernd
We live in the Atlanta Georgia area.

[Taceas]

Looks like a baby Brown Water Snake to me. I caught one in my parents' garage a year or so ago, the markings looked similar, only mine was a bit more colorful.

Nasty tempered critters though. I took mine and turned it loose at a pond in the woods. =P

Pics of mine:

Pic 1 (http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/MiscSnakes/GarageSnake1.JPG)

Pic 2 (http://www.sleepyhollowherps.com/snakes/MiscSnakes/GarageSnake2.JPG)

[cowboyman13]

I think it looks like a water snake as well.

Either way you can not legal keep it as a pet. All native nonvenomous reptiles are protected in the state of GA. Please take a look at this link
Keeping Ga wildlife as pets (http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga.us/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=6)

Please make sure you continue on to page two of this article to find a list of those that cannot be legally kept.

[Savvy19]

I like the eyes on the one you caught, Tac.

[Piper]

Yup, looks like a water snake to me as well. They do *not* have nice dispositions, especially when older. I had an adult one for a few short days as a kid... all I remember is it kept trying to bite & fling poo & musk :-puke01:

[Bernd]

The females in our house (wife and daughter) used to have a pet mouse. They cannot bear the thought of a animal in this house that eats mice, even dead frozen ones. So, in the hope that he is a water snake, we put a shallow bowl of water in his acquarium with two very small minnows. The snake ate one of the minnows last night.

My assumption is that if he was a Corn snake there is no way he would have eaten a minnow. Is that correct, and do we now have by the process of elimination a water snake?

Thanks to all of you who have responded. Once we know for sure what he is, we will address the issue of proper care, or how to proceed on the issue of bad temprement.

Bernd

[kimbyra]

That looks like a water snake. It certainly is possible that a hungry corn will eat a minnow. They like tuna scented mice when they are fussy eaters.

[cornmorphs]

cool, very nice... wish we had a few nice native snakes

[cowboyman13]

The females in our house (wife and daughter) used to have a pet mouse. They cannot bear the thought of a animal in this house that eats mice, even dead frozen ones. So, in the hope that he is a water snake, we put a shallow bowl of water in his acquarium with two very small minnows. The snake ate one of the minnows last night.

My assumption is that if he was a Corn snake there is no way he would have eaten a minnow. Is that correct, and do we now have by the process of elimination a water snake?

Thanks to all of you who have responded. Once we know for sure what he is, we will address the issue of proper care, or how to proceed on the issue of bad temprement.

Bernd

Its not a corn and once again its your decision but it is illegal to keep as a pet in the state of Ga.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I got a chuckle out've the obvious disregard for your warning on the legalities... ;)

[cowboyman13]

I figured with it being the first post i should at least bring it up, and with the second talking about long term husbandry i would bring it up once more. I dont agree with the blanket type law in Ga either. But it is the law and i figured i would at least make Bernd aware. God forbid they need to take it to the vet and find out by being reported or by an excited Daughter telling her Sceince teacher and getting reported that way. There are still many species of reptiles that can be legally kept in GA. :shrugs:

[Joejr14]

Its not a corn and once again its your decision but it is illegal to keep as a pet in the state of Ga.

What does it matter if it's illegal? Do you speed? I know I go 80 down I-75 where the speed limit is 70, so I'm doing something illegal too. It's not the end of the world if the guy keeps a water snake that he caught outside, goodness.

[Bernd]

I have not decided to disregard the legalities. I just want to make sure that I know what kind of snake it is before we decide. Frankly, I feel kind of stuck. A snake that eats mice (even frozen ones), is just not going to happen in my house. So, one that eats minnows and crickets (we just bought two crickets to see what would happen) might be a happy compromize for my son who has read every snake book he could find at the library and could buy at the bookstore.

The legalities will certainly factor into the decision. But they may not carry the day. I don't drive 55 MPH on the highway either (if you know anything about Atlanta if you try that here, you will get run over).

Cheers,

Bernd

[cowboyman13]

Joe please refer to the above post. I really dont care but like i said it being the first, and second post i figured Bernd may not be aware.

What he decides to do his is buisness.

[Joejr14]

Stick to fish, and it's 100% a water snake. If you want to keep it, I don't have a problem with it but remind yourself that water snakes are not nice critters. They will eventually need bigger fish, and snake poo that is comprised of fish absoutely stinks.

Why no mice? Is that no mice in the kitchen freezer? Ever thought about purchasing a small chest freezer, or a mini-fridge and turning it up to full blast cold? Turns it into a mini freezer. Works well.

[Joejr14]

Joe please refer to the above post. I really dont care but like i said it being the first, and second post i figured Bernd may not be aware.

What he decides to do his is buisness.

I didn't see your post before I responded.

But I mean really, what in the hell is this guy supposed to keep in Georgia? They've outlawed every single native species, including corns. Sure, he could get another species of ratsnake or some python/boid, but certainly none of those are going to be eating fish.

Let me guess, garters are a native species in Ga and therefore are illegal to keep too, right?

[Bernd]

My teenage daughter had a pet mouse once. She and her Mom (my wife) have drawn a line in the sand on the issue of snakes that eat mice. It is just not a battle that I am going to win (well I could win, but it would not be worth the price).

So this was starting to feel like a happy accident until legalities, bad temprament and fish poo came up.

I really do appreciate all of the insights. Between my nine year old son, and the two females in the house, I am the only one who can apply logic to the situation, so the information really helps.

Cheers,

Bernd

[Joejr14]

My teenage daughter had a pet mouse once. She and her Mom (my wife) have drawn a line in the sand on the issue of snakes that eat mice. It is just not a battle that I am going to win (well I could win, but it would not be worth the price).

So this was starting to feel like a happy accident until legalities, bad temprament and fish poo came up.

I really do appreciate all of the insights. Between my nine year old son, and the two females in the house, I am the only one who can apply logic to the situation, so the information really helps.

Cheers,

Bernd


I wish Georgia wasn't so stupid, Bernd. They outlaw basically every single type of non-venomous herp that is available. That certainly leaves you with crap for choices. Of course, you could always try to go the snake sausage route, I just have no idea how that would work.

[cowboyman13]

I think its as silly as you do. And i am not saying that if i got tranferred back to Ga i wouldnt take all my corns with me. I most surely would. The Ga state DNR is not coming to your house to check. I know many people back home that have kings and other native species. I have even let my kids keep box turtles as pets found in the yard. Which is a no no in alot of states but i am sure allmost all of us have done in our lives.

Bernd, Joe i do not disagree with keeping it at all. Hell if it makes your little girl happy thats all that matters. Your just going to have very few places to turn for vet care if you ever needed it. I dont know the husbandry for a water snake but i have caught a few and they have a nasty little viscous bite and like to chew once clamped down. It'll draw a little blood and itch. Maybe scare the crap out of you the first few times it happens.

[Wilder]

What about garters or rough green snakes? Those native too? If not, well, they are an option.

And I'll bet once that snake gets bigger and is biting everything that comes near it and is flinging fishy poo at your daughter and wife, they'll change their mind REAL quick. ;)

[Roy Munson]

My teenage daughter had a pet mouse once. She and her Mom (my wife) have drawn a line in the sand on the issue of snakes that eat mice.

Do they know that quite often mice eat mice? And when mice eat mice, they don't quickly kill them like a snake would, they usually tear them apart alive. I've had various pet rodents in my life (but never again), and I've come home to some pretty horrific massacres. Is a mouse's life more significant in some way than a minnow's? I'm not arguing with you, I realize that you already get it. I just have low tolerance for this kind of b.s.. Stand your ground on this, and get you and your son a nice leucistic Texas rat snake. Tell the wife and daughter to go occupy themselves with some foul vermin while you feed it. Your son's interest shouldn't have to be abandoned to accommodate their silly prejudices. Don't your opinions and his count too? :mad:

[Joejr14]

What about garters or rough green snakes? Those native too? If not, well, they are an option.

And I'll bet once that snake gets bigger and is biting everything that comes near it and is flinging fishy poo at your daughter and wife, they'll change their mind REAL quick. ;)


Those are illegal as well. See what I mean?

[Tyger9791]

thats ridiculous...what if you get a canadian garter snake can you bring it into GA?
i'm just wondering because the petco here sells Canadian garters every once in awhile.
and that might be an option for him.

[cowboyman13]

I am not sure what they would say about a canadian garter snake. I know when it comes to corns its any morph i have actually emailed and asked.

Here is the quote i wrote in another post.
Here is the answer i recived
Answer
Mr. Perry,

Although the Law doesn't seem to make sense to you, you understand it
correctly. The Law in Georgia provides protection to all non-venomous
snakes and that protection is not tied to abundance. Therefore, even the
abundant rat snakes in Georgia are protected and may not be killed,
molested or possessed.

Our advise/guidance on this issue has long been to simply choose a
non-venomous species that does not occur in Georgia. Non-venomous
snakes that don't occur in this state are not regulated and may be kept
as pets and bred or sold.

I'm sorry it isn't what you want to hear but that is the current law
in Georgia.

Scott Frazier
Special Permit Unit
(770) 761-3044
scott_frazier@mail.dnr.state.ga.us

>>> <cowboyman13@msn.com> 3/7/2005 8:11:19 AM >>>My orginal question

Name: James Perry
Phone number: (813)
E-mail address: cowboyman13@msn.com

As a native of GA i was curious about the keeping of a pet snake. I now
reside in FL where Captive Bred cornsnakes are avalible for purschase at
most pet shops. I know the law in GA says that you must not harm or
molest any non venomus snake in GA. But does law prevent you from owning
a Captive Bred Cornsnake or other native species from GA that is not on
the endangered or threated list. It seems odd that this would be the
case. I could understand a species like the indigo snake here in FL that
is protected. But a species like the abudant Rat, and Corn in GA would
be hard to comprehend. Please help me clear up this for I dont plan to
remain in FL forever my intention is to return home to North Georgia
where I am from.

Well there you have it straight from the mouth of The Ga DNR.

Here is a link to that Thread. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6102&page=1&pp=20)

As yall can see even being a Ga native i was unaware of Ga law about reptiles and had i not heard it from someone on this site i probably would have never known.

[Tyger9791]

yeah, i learned about it from reading Kathy Love's book. it says in there that in GA it's illegal to own corns.

[Gintha]

My ex legally slid past that law by getting a hybrid hehe. He checked around the make sure, and hybrids that would not occur in nature are not covered by the laws.

[Bernd]

Roy and others,

Well the point about mice eating mice is a good one. My daughter actually had two mice, and we had to give one away because they kept trying to destroy each other.

Here is now I guess this is going to play out. Max (the water snake) has now gotten acclimated to his acquarium. If I put minnows in his pond he eats them. It is really cool to watch him hover over the "pond" and track down the minnows. The ladies in my house are going to get a lot more used to the idea of a pet snake then they ever have before.

Max will grow up, get big, bit and fling poo. Then he we will let him loose in the creek in our back yard so he can eat the fish in the creek to his heart's content.

Having softened up the wall of resistence to a snake with this experience, we will then try something like a Ball Pyton and hopefully teach it to eat the frozen sausage.

Thanks, again for all of your help and insights. I have to say I really appreciate it, especially given that this is the Corn Snake forum not the Water Snake Forum :).

Cheers,

Bernd

[Taceas]

As everyone had said, water snakes do not make good pets, period. They're most commonly misidentified as water moccasins (which are venomous) because of the same body postures and nasty attitude.

I've had enough experience with adult Water Snakes to know to steer clear of them if possible. I actually had one chase me out of the shallows of a pond when my fishing line and fish got wrapped around a submerged stick. Its hard to run in thigh deep water and mud with a rabid snake on your tail.

As for Georgia laws, I personally think they're a crock as well. And if we got transferred there tomorrow, you'd bet your last dollar I'm taking my snakes with me. That's your place to choose to disregard the laws. There's another new breeder from Georgia on the forum who I'm guessing has no idea corns are illegal to own in Georgia, as he seems to be a transplant.

I understand their (Georgia) reasoning in a way, but from what I've read, you can kill/collect all of the venomous snakes in Georgia to your heart's content. Makes tons of sense, sure. :rolleyes:

As for the "Female Rules" in the house, I see no correlation between keeping/breeding your own mice for snake food and ones that are bought already frozen.

I do frozen and raise my own mice myself, and yes there are some mice that are just too cute to cull off at times. But like Roy said, mice can do pretty damned vicious things to one another in their own right. I remember watching a new mother eat her newly born litter from the tail first...I was mortified at the screaming of the baby as she ate its back legs. The remaining babies got put with another mother and the new mom never did it again, thankfully.

Most people would never be able to keep and kill chickens for their own food, but they still have them in their freezers none the less. The point I'm getting at, frozen mice are so un-cute like that I draw no warm fuzzy feelings out of them in the packaging. To me, they're snake ribeyes. The connection to a living thing is totally lost when they're cold and inanimate in a plastic bag.

Once having and raising mice is of no connection to frozen ones in the freezer, at least in my little world and feeble mind. Most battles with wives can be easily avoided so long as you promise to put the seat down when you're done, do dishes once in a while, and give us a hug a little more often. ;)

Edit after seeing your reply:

I doubt a Ball Python and snake sausages would work. I have enough trouble getting my Captive Bred and Born BP to eat mice and rats consistently, let alone something that doesn't look/smell like food. BP's are notoriously fussy eaters, and sometimes I have to entice mine to eat live mice/rats, which I doubt would work in your home. I just don't advocate BP's as a good beginner's snake.

If you want a snake that eats anything easily, I would recommend a King of some sort that isn't native to Georgia. Mine would eat the hubcaps off a car if they smelled like food, I'm sure. ;)

While not as docile in most cases as corns, they're a decent snake if kept handled frequently. But they do occasionally think people are food. Click! (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=137063&postcount=1)

[greathunter22]

The other day I heard a shriek coming from my basement. I went downstairs and found my wife standing on a chair. This baby snake had managed to somehow get into our house. He is about six inches long.

We have two opinions as to what he might be. One is a baby Corn Snake and the other is a baby Brown Water Snake. My son would really like to keep him as a pet, so it is important that we figure out what he is so that we can give him the proper food and environment. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bernd
We live in the Atlanta Georgia area. :flames: looks like a baby brown water snake to me dude

[Tyger9791]

Well said taceas...i see the frozen mice as just meat. just like a steak sitting in the freezer. my gf tolerates the frozen mice, but wont tolerate feeding live mice. and it is a hassle to find live mice every week. i dont see the frozen rodents in my freezer as cute furry critters.
she thinks the frozen mice are kinda gross...the pinks arent exactly pretty looking.
I do realize that there is the possibility that every once in awhile a snake may need live food. But I just recently gave away my grey rat snake because he was being too picky of an eater and i really wasnt able to give him live food every week. and even when i was able to find him a live pink or two, he would refuse to eat. and then i was stuck with trying to figure out what to do with a couple of live pinks. but now, he's with another owner, who can give him all the live food he wants when he wants.
The 3 corns I have now, take frozen/thawed no problem. and if on occasion they need live it wont be a huge deal. but if it becomes a weekly ordeal, then i'll have to give them up.

[kimbyra]

Bernd, if you keep the water snake until its big, then set it loose, it will probably starve to death because it has been raised captive for a while. Also, I hope you have a land side to that aquarium.

[colinmcc]

Regardless of the legalities .... I wouldn't choose to keep a water snake anyway.

As has already been stated, nasty, bad tempered little sods. I used to have one .... horrible snake.

... oh, and fishy poo does indeed stink ... Joe's not wrong there. :-puke01:

As also mentioned, keeping him captive will make him soft. Not good news if you release him further down the line.

Still, your call. If you do decide to hang onto him though, you should really plan to do it for life .......

[JasonS]

I would have to agree with Kimbyra that having the water snake too long would probally have a negative effect if you are going to release him in the wild some day, but a couple weeks to change the minds of the women folk probally wouldn't hurt (thank God my wife loves our corns as much as I do).
Now for the GA government, earmuffs kids. Damn the government for having such an archaic law on the books that does not consider the abundance or endangerment of a species. Are we suppose to stop fishing because a certain species of fish are endangered while the trout jumping? I think that a lesson in civil disobedience would be a fine lesson indeed.

On a more legal note, creamsicles are a very good looking snake and probally not "illegal". Next time the women folk are enjoying a nice steak, remind them of the cute cow they saw in the field, it helped me win my battle!

Good luck with finding the right snake, it is a great hobby to have.

[Wilder]

Well, it may all be moot anyhow... considering if THIS snake gets big, bites, and flings poo, do you really think his family will allow for any other snake to enter the house? Nah, me either. :rolleyes:

[pasam]

WHy not let him loose now? He would most likely be happier. Rereleasing wild animals is usually not a good idea unless you are an expert. JMO

[Taceas]

So I have to be an expert to release a raccoon, opossum, or mouse caught in my live-traps? :rolleyes:

During the summer months, I frequently live-trap coons and possums trying to get to my chickens. I find it a more humane method to dealing with an over-population problem in my area. I trap them, they get a free meal of cat food, and I drive them about 15 miles away, across two rivers, and release them in the wilds.

It's a baby snake that's native to the area. You take it to a local creek or pond, bend over, and release it and wish it a happy life.

[Tyger9791]

Well, it may all be moot anyhow... considering if THIS snake gets big, bites, and flings poo, do you really think his family will allow for any other snake to enter the house? Nah, me either. :rolleyes:

um yeah...i dont understand that either. after having a badly behaved snake, it would be difficult to convince the family to get another. i would think so anyway.

and i had a fish eating snake...a blue garter. man he stunk! and he messed his viv every day it seemed. i clean the corn snakes' vivs about once a week. the garter i was having to clean just about every other day at least. fortunately, i had a corn and the garter.
my gf wouldnt have let me get another snake after that ordeal with the garter if it hadnt of been for good old Blaze. he's an awesome corn snake. very easy to handle and care for.

[diamondlil]

Since being a kid I did the whole spawn-tadpole-frog release thing and again when my boys were young. I've released fledged birds and a hedgehog when they were fit enough to go, I have no idea if they did survive but at least they got a chance. I think there is more potential for trouble with animals that need to learn more to survive, surely snakes rely far more on instinct than most mammals and if put in a suitable area the water snake should be ok?

[kimbyra]

He was talking about keeping it for a long time, until it was "big". Then releasing it though.

[Tom Tuttle]

If it's feeding on live fish,it should remeber what to do . :wavey:

[Tula_Montage]

just how big do water snakes actually grow to...

and as for the corns they are an average of 3-5ft so iv read from many reliable sources...

but there is another glitch with Talullah and Vincent...
hes a good 3rd bigger than her yet there is less than a week between them.
is there a reason for such size differences? could it be gender?

[PJ FF]

it almost looks like my false water cobra but obviously is not

[colinmcc]

just how big do water snakes actually grow to...

and as for the corns they are an average of 3-5ft so iv read from many reliable sources...

but there is another glitch with Talullah and Vincent...
hes a good 3rd bigger than her yet there is less than a week between them.
is there a reason for such size differences? could it be gender?

Size wise, not too dissimilar to corns. Almost 6' at the extreme, 4'-5' more generally. (water snakes in general ... dunno about this species specifically)

Size difference is just down to genetic make up really. I have two '05 hatchlings from last year. Been fed at exactly the same time as each other since they hatched, neither have ever refused, but one hatched (so started eating) two months before the other one. The later hatchling is now the bigger of the two .... they're both male (as far as I can tell).

:shrugs:

[Tula_Montage]

well its not just "the big man" that works in mysterious ways then huh ;)
tallulah will probably outgrow vincent at some point... i wouldnt be at all surprised.

[Sisuitl]

You might look into garters as a legal and very awesome alternative. There are so many different species (many not native to GA, and many in captivity are hybrids anyway), and an incredible number of vivid color and pattern morphs just like corns (try looking up "flame garter snake" some time).

Garters can be fed a balanced diet of fish and worms (remember too much cod or goldfish is bad for snakes) that doesn't require the rodent battle. This does have the negative side effect of stinky poo. Because of their typically smaller size garters can also do very well on a diet of pinky and fuzzy mice. These are awesome because frozen in bulk they are very inexpensive, and look like ugly pink jellybeans. NOTHING like a cute mousie. They don't even have ears and eyes at that point. Feeding pinks makes their poo smell much more tolerable too.

I hate to say this on a corn website, but out of all my snakes my garter is the most favorite. He's very social and elegant. He is diurnal, so all day long he's pressed up against the glass of his viv, frantically "begging" me to hold him when I come into the room instead of sleeping like the corns. When I take him out he calms down and happily coils around my arm or naps in my pocket. He also slithers around with his head off the ground like a little cobra. It's extremely cute! Out of all my snakes the garter by far has the biggest personality. It's very unfortunate that such a wonderful species is so underrated as a companion animal.

[kimbyra]

I love my checkered garter, Zoomer. He was my first snake. As a pet, I like corns better. Although Zoomer is active during the day, so I can see him, he is a hyper, and doesn't like to be held much. Corns are more relaxed and docile to interact with, though you hardly see them during the day. I guess there are pros and cons to both, and it comes down to personal preference. Zoomer eats mostly pinkies now, though he does get an occasional fish.