Another loss :-(

[thermo man]

Hi all.
Sad news once again.
I want some advice,first off all i want to give you my history.
I have had 2 Corn snakes,both of them have died.
The 1st one was about 6 months old,the only thing i noticed after her death was a small yellow patch on the belly,just over half way down her body.
I made some post previous asking for some possible causes but to no avail,and was told not to be disheartened as i find snakes wonderfull pets..
So i decided to try again and removed everything out of her tank and soaked in chlorine for over 24 hrs,then rinsed thourouly and let dry before putting it all back.
I then purchased another corn approx 1 year old and around 70cm long,and placed him in the tank,when i bought him he was mid shed,he had some problems removing his shed but he was clear within a week and half.
I offered him a dead fuzzy(frozen but defrosted in a sac in warm water) but he was not interested.
Around 4 days after that i offered him a fresh mouse that i euthanized (cervical dislocation method)once again he refused it.
I was not to concerned because he had just shed and it was only i week prior to buying him that he was fed,therfore he had not eaten for 3 weeks,as i beileve corn can survive for at least 3 months without food.
Around a week later i offered him a live fuzzy he striked at it when it got close,as if to scare the mouse away so once again no food,but he was very active lively.
I decided to leave him for 10 days this time,aproximatly 4 days later i found him dead.
He was lay at the side of the water dish with subtrate(ASPEN) in his mouth,i looked closley in his mouth and removed the aspen and looked down his throat to see if any was further down to cause a problem,there wasnt any, only the bit in the front of his mouth so i am not sure if he ate any or not(i always feed in an apart container).
A low wattage spot light, heat mat covering 1/3 hides cold and warm side.
Temps-warm side 80-83..cold side-mid 70s.
fresh water every 2 days,bought both snakes from same supplier.
The tank is next to the tank from our turtles(RES)and could they see eachother could they have scared him?both snakes were found dead next to the water on the side of the tutles.was he dehydrated?
did he eat the subtrate?:-these questions are nagging me
Please help cos i want to keep a corn but am becoming very disheartened i must be doing something wrong but dont know what:-(
Thanks all
Tom......

[kimbyra]

I am sorry for your loses.
I hope some experts reply.

[razorback]

Could it in anyway be a problem with the drinking water you were providing? Also, and this will cause you trouble if for any reason it could be vaild....but is there anyone in the house that would have reason not to want you to have a pet snake??

[thermo man]

I know fro certain that nobody in the house would hurt the snakes,as far as the water is concerned it must be ok as the pet shop i bought them from has the same supplier, is there a way to test the water ? and what to test for.

[MegF.]

The substrate in the mouth could be indicative of seizure activity or convulsions. I've heard of snakes convulsing before dying, and have seen pictures of them. Did you get both snakes from the same place? Sounds like a problem before you got it as it refused to eat immediately. You can check with your water company and see if they put chloramines in the water. It can take some time for the chloramines to kill the snake as the levels have to build in the kidneys first. My county started using chloramines but I've always used purified water for my reptiles and other animals. I don't trust tap water.

[paulh]

Sorry to hear of your losses. :(

the only thing i noticed after her death was a small yellow patch on the belly, just over half way down her body.
This was probably caused by leakage from the gall bladder. It usually happens after a snake dies for any reason and is of no help in determining cause of death.

A low wattage spot light, heat mat covering 1/3 hides cold and warm side.
Temps-warm side 80-83..cold side-mid 70s.

I am wondering if the death was temperature related. Answers to the following questions could help to eliminate that cause.

Was the dead snake found on the cooler side of the tank?

What is the wattage of a "low wattage spot light"?

Does the tank have a screen top? If not, what is the top made of?

What sort of heat pad is on the tank bottom?

Were the heat lamp and pad ever turned off?

Where was the thermometer located when the temperatures were taken? Was the thermometer placed under the substrate on the tank bottom over the heat pad at any time? If not, try putting a thermometer there and report the temperature, please.

[starsevol]

I am so sorry for your losses.

I am suspicious of the pet shop or perhaps their supplier.

[Piper]

Is the heat mat plugged into a thermostat to regulate it's heat output to a certain temperature range? I would worry the heat mat temperature may have spiked.

[kathylove]

"The substrate in the mouth could be indicative of seizure activity or convulsions." Meg F.

My thought too.

Is it possible that you have any kind of chemicals in your house that could have caused the problem? I once had a customer suddenly lose several corns (and they went into convulsions) after having his carpets cleaned in another room of his house. Suspicious chemicals could be any kind of cleaning fluids, bug spray, paint, stain, or varnish, among other possibilities. Or is it possible you treated the snakes or the cage with anything for insects, parasites, or disease prevention? Treatments such as No - Pest Strips or Flagyl or any other medication / insecticides? Cleaning agents with phenol (Lysol, Pine Sol) can also be dangerous.

Try to think of anything at all that could be suspect. It is possible that it didn't affect people, dogs, cats, etc, but did affect snakes.

Sorry to hear of your loss. Hope you can figure it out so your next corn will do great for you!

[MegF.]

I've seen the same indications of seizures with severe bacterial infections. In my reptile biomedical and surgical book there is a photo there.

[Cflaguy]

"The substrate in the mouth could be indicative of seizure activity or convulsions." Meg F.

My thought too.

Is it possible that you have any kind of chemicals in your house that could have caused the problem? I once had a customer suddenly lose several corns (and they went into convulsions) after having his carpets cleaned in another room of his house. Suspicious chemicals could be any kind of cleaning fluids, bug spray, paint, stain, or varnish, among other possibilities. Or is it possible you treated the snakes or the cage with anything for insects, parasites, or disease prevention? Treatments such as No - Pest Strips or Flagyl or any other medication / insecticides? Cleaning agents with phenol (Lysol, Pine Sol) can also be dangerous.

Try to think of anything at all that could be suspect. It is possible that it didn't affect people, dogs, cats, etc, but did affect snakes.

Sorry to hear of your loss. Hope you can figure it out so your next corn will do great for you!

with fish and birds. I had customers lose fish because of PH shock due to the bug man spraying. Certain candles and incense are deadly to the water as well. We use only Yankee Candles, the more all natural variety. There are products that will definitely cause harm to our pets.
Lisa says to stay away from Frebreze!
I would check my house and the supplier before making another attempt.

[thermo man]

Wow thanks for all the replies everyone.
I'll answer all questions to best of my ability..
As far as chemicals in water i dont know im going to talk with the water comapny later today to find out what they use.
He was found on the cooler side of tank.
25 watt spot light half meter from base.
the tank is from the whole glass with ventilation screen 100 mm wide running the leangth of tank.
The heat pad can be described as a plastic sheet(this wasnt on as the weather has been around 80 degrees latley)i also left the lamp off because of the temp.(i believe a lot of light is not needed and it isnt particulally dark in that area of the room)
Ive just retaken temps in the places you suggested and they range from 72 to 83 in various places.
I didnt use any insectacides as such to clean tank
i cleaned all the pieces with chlorine as suggested in this forum let dry imn well ventilated area for a few days before putting them back after they were well rinsed with cold water.
We use only very lightly concentrated water and agent to clean the floor(laminate flooring)maybe a possability but as i said it is a weak solution and the viv stadns half meter off floor and ventilation area of viv is on top around 1 meter high.
As far as supplier is concerned i live in the netherlands and there are not so many suppliers about,the closest i have found is about 50 km from home,they are not so common over here.
Some sort of convulsion may well be true as he was found with his mouth open.
I really want to keep a corn but ive now had 2 die and seem to be doing everything correct its so disheartening,and i feel so bad that im doing something wrong and killing the poor things.
Thanks everyone and if there are any more suggestions please let me know i really want to solve this before i get another snake,i couldnt bare to lose another.

[SnakeAround]

Wow thanks for all the replies everyone.
I'll answer all questions to best of my ability..
As far as chemicals in water i dont know im going to talk with the water comapny later today to find out what they use.
He was found on the cooler side of tank.
25 watt spot light half meter from base.
the tank is from the whole glass with ventilation screen 100 mm wide running the leangth of tank.
The heat pad can be described as a plastic sheet(this wasnt on as the weather has been around 80 degrees latley)i also left the lamp off because of the temp.(i believe a lot of light is not needed and it isnt particulally dark in that area of the room)
Ive just retaken temps in the places you suggested and they range from 72 to 83 in various places.
I didnt use any insectacides as such to clean tank
i cleaned all the pieces with chlorine as suggested in this forum let dry imn well ventilated area for a few days before putting them back after they were well rinsed with cold water.
We use only very lightly concentrated water and agent to clean the floor(laminate flooring)maybe a possability but as i said it is a weak solution and the viv stadns half meter off floor and ventilation area of viv is on top around 1 meter high.
As far as supplier is concerned i live in the netherlands and there are not so many suppliers about,the closest i have found is about 50 km from home,they are not so common over here.
Some sort of convulsion may well be true as he was found with his mouth open.
I really want to keep a corn but ive now had 2 die and seem to be doing everything correct its so disheartening,and i feel so bad that im doing something wrong and killing the poor things.
Thanks everyone and if there are any more suggestions please let me know i really want to solve this before i get another snake,i couldnt bare to lose another.

It might be just bad luck after all.. that is what I hope for you :shrugs:

[Cflaguy]

may be using chemicals detrimental to snakes in his practices; may want to check that out.

[Aubrey]

Is the cage an aquarium?

[Aubrey]

Is the cage an aquarium?You did say tank, but I want to be sure. Chlorine is a very potent chem. Was it liquid or powder that you used?

[Cycal]

I then purchased another corn approx 1 year old and around 70cm long,and placed him in the tank,when i bought him he was mid shed,he had some problems removing his shed but he was clear within a week and half.
I offered him a dead fuzzy(frozen but defrosted in a sac in warm water) but he was not interested...



What sort of substate were they using at the pet store, and how long did the year old snake spend in the pet store? Also, were the 2 snakes related in anyway?

Regardless, id recomend not buying any more pets or feeders from that store just to be on the safe side.

[thermo man]

It was a tablet chlorine i used,but am sure i rinsed thoughrely.
I've read on these forums to use this to be sure all insects and so are dead.
After the rinse i let it dry in ventilated area for 3 days.

[thermo man]

As far as i know they were not related,the store used aspen and i dont know how long he was there,
He was in a tank with approximatly 5 corns and 4 ball pythons various ages.
(personally i think it is bad practise to have so many snakes in a tank.
When i say tank i refer to aquarium (ventilated glass tank).
Thanks
The more suggestions i recieve on this matter the better...

[Cycal]

As far as i know they were not related,the store used aspen and i dont know how long he was there,
He was in a tank with approximatly 5 corns and 4 ball pythons various ages.
(personally i think it is bad practise to have so many snakes in a tank.
When i say tank i refer to aquarium (ventilated glass tank).
Thanks
The more suggestions i recieve on this matter the better...

That just may be the problem right there. Considering that are of diffrent sizes, and breeds, im willing to bet that these all come from different sources (its also a possiblity that the Balls could be wild imports). It would probably also be safe to say that none of these snakes were quarentined either. Assuming this, your snakes may have had a any number of parasites or diseases.

It sounds like your husbandry was pretty good. Dont let this discourage you. Just be a bit more selective of whom you buy from.

[Aubrey]

As far as i know they were not related,the store used aspen and i dont know how long he was there,
He was in a tank with approximatly 5 corns and 4 ball pythons various ages.
(personally i think it is bad practise to have so many snakes in a tank.
When i say tank i refer to aquarium (ventilated glass tank).
Thanks
The more suggestions i recieve on this matter the better...Hmmmm. well it sounds like this pet shop isnt very reptile savy. With the description you provided it could be a whole lot of different problems. I wouldnt buy from that store, but as you have stated you dont have many options. Have you been back to the store recently? If so how are the other corns they had there? If they still have a couple there, I would see what condition they were in and if they are sick I would try to make some suggestions to help them better care for their snakes in the future. If they listen and find your info useful they may be willing to give you a better deal on another corn (properly kept) in the future. I wouldnt go in guns blazeing, just let them know about your situation and see if they will let you help. This would be good for you, the snakes, and the dealer. Just a thought.

[thermo man]

No i havnt been back,i can get supplies locally.
I agree that they should be educated on how to keep snakes but im not going to do it,i think i would get a bit cross with them because i dont expect they would take notice.
The next corn i get will be bought from a differant supplier,but it is a bit of a task and just hope it dosnt die too.
Ive spent hours searching forums for info about how to keep them.And it seems from the reactions of people on here that im doing everything correct,
i was hoping that somebody would tell me i was doing something wrong so that i would know.
I will in the future use a differant breader,purified water instead of tap water,and take a look at the houshold cleaning products we use,as these are the main possible causes.
I want to be absolutly certain i am doing it right before i buy next one,so if anyone notices something i should add to my changes of care pls let me know.
Tanks Tom

[dionythicus]

Keep an eye out on this forum for breeders in the Netherlands. I bet you can get something really nice and healthy from one of the breeders on here. Good luck.

[MegF.]

You might just have to wait until you have a show or something near you or have a breeder in the UK ship you a snake. The fact that the petstore is housing two completely different breeds of snakes that have different requirements is absurd. I would definitely consider the possibility of a bacterial infection from perhaps the balls. Susceptibility could have been worse because of stress. Can you imagine a corn living with ball pythons?

[thermo man]

To be honest i dont know anything about ball pythons,i didnt think it was a good idea keeping up to 10 snakes in 1 viv especially differant sizes and breeds,
but unfortunatly it is the only shop that i know of where i can buy them.
Im gonna try to find a private breeder for my next snake.
If anyone hears of a breeder in the netherlands pls let me know(preferably noord brabant area).
Thanks
Tom..