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snake acting like its dying

skimpy
08-18-2006, 08:37 AM
Hi all,

Got my corn aged 4mths in july. went to rescue centre i got it from to get his food...came home with another! I wasn't keen on putting them together, since Milton had only just settled, however, i was told that it would be ok to put them together, since they were roughly the same age etc.

Now i have a problem. as soon as it occured, they were separated, but i think the problem has gone too far.

The smaller one, my first, Milton, has gone listless. he just looks like he's dying. he is off his food, and i thought he was going to shed (the eyes are a little cloudy), however, if he did shed, i dont think he would have the energy to discard the old skin. I found him this morning exactly where i left him, he had made no attempt to find his hide. i took him out this morning to check he wasnt dead. took a while to find out he was still breathing. I had him curled up on the palm of myh hand. there is no movement, his head will move if you touch it, and his tail sometimes quivers a bit, but other than that, he is lifeless.

getting worried. could this be stress? what can i do to de-stress? is there anything else it could be?

on a final note, i did notice that Milton was drinking A LOT, up until yesterday. Viv nive and humid, not too hot.

Some help on what is wrong and what to do would be much appreciated.

Skimps :cry:

Flagg
08-18-2006, 08:43 AM
Is it too hot? Whats the temp at substrate level on the hot side? Is there a UTH or heat lamp or both?

Plissken
08-18-2006, 08:43 AM
What are the temps like? From my experiences, sometimes a snake can become listless if they get too cold.

Also what do you mean by "nice and humid?" Too much humidity can be bad for corns.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 09:31 AM
I do not have a thermometer in there, but I am using a heat mat, on 1/3 of the viv. There is a hygrometer, which reads 65. sorry i cant give you more precise info. i need to get a thermometer, however i didnt think it would get too hot using a mat. i dont use lamps.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 09:37 AM
just looked in on him again, i think he is nearly dead. cant hold head up.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 09:46 AM
A LOT of fluid, clear stuff, just came out. do snakes pee? or is this part of the dying process?

skimpy
08-18-2006, 09:58 AM
i think he died when the fluid came out. can stress kill??? I now need to know what killed him, since i have another, and they were in together

Tula_Montage
08-18-2006, 10:12 AM
A mat WILL get too hot if not controlled by a thermostsat... I did a little test not long ago on a mat plugged into the mains and measured the temps at certain intervals.

After only an hour it was up at 110 degrees!! Thats a fried corn snake!!!

skimpy
08-18-2006, 10:19 AM
o god i hope not. i had been switching the mat on in the evening, it wasnt on constantly. after last message, i noticed he was still breathing, i think he has stopped now.

Flagg
08-18-2006, 11:30 AM
Yea that's probably what happened, heat mats unregulated get WAY too hot. Did you do any research at all? you have to have a thermometer with a probe.

There are posts here almost daily from new corn owners with either the wrong kind of thermometer or no thermometer at all. I'm beginning to see how the more veteran snake owners here get frustrated answering the same questions day in and day out when all the info is easily found in the FAQs and stickied posts on this forum and other places.

Plissken
08-18-2006, 11:58 AM
Come on... their snake just died...skimpy, I am very sorry for your loss.

Flagg, I realise it is so frustrating when an animal dies because the owner's husbandry was poor, but skimpy's intentions were good. She seperated them the moment she realised there was a problem, and we know from her posts that her snake had heating, water, hides, etc, even a hygrometer. The truth is that new snake owners who are not sure, often choose the wrong advice when they hear conflicting things. It's easy when you know how, but I know when I was researching corns, I saw and heard many contradicting things, and if you don't KNOW which is correct, how are you to know who is correct? :shrugs: If two people say two different things... one of them has to be wrong... and it can be easier to believe someone face to face than annoymies on an internet forum. Maybe someone told skimpy a thermometer was not neccessary (you know, the "But I don't use them with my snakes and they're fine.")

It doesn't excuse the snake's death, but I think skimpy should just be allowed to learn from her mistakes. We all make mistakes, and while some of them bring more tragic consequences than others, that's how we learn. The experienced people on this forum are only experienced because they've had the ups and downs of keeping live creatures.

Oh, and let's not jump to conclusions - we don't know for a fact that the heat mat killed Milton. I myself successfully maintained Connor on an unregulated heat mat for some time. No, it wasn't a good idea, but the point is that I managed to do it and Connor is in perfect health. There's a good possibility that the snake was just poorly :shrugs:

bitsy
08-18-2006, 12:07 PM
i had been switching the mat on in the evening, it wasnt on constantly

In that case, I'm afraid the temperature fluctuations were probably quite extreme for a Corn Snake. While we can't be sure what happened, this would be one source of stress.

Introducing another snake could also have caused stress.

It's also possible that the second snake is carrying some sort of disease that has been passed on.

If you have a local reptile vet, please see if you can have a post mortem done, to try and pinpoint what has happened and keep your other snake safe.

And yes, I believe that all dying animals void their digestive systems as they pass on. It's down to the loss of involuntary muscle control.

Sorry for your loss. There are some good FAQs here that will help you give your remaining snake the optimum setup, so please have a look around and a good read.

Flagg
08-18-2006, 12:18 PM
Well I apologize if my post was insensitive, I thought it was rather reasonably stated. I'm going to stop replying to this kind of thread, its just the same thing over and over again. There's no reason new snake owners should HAVE to learn from their mistakes. This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just this kind of post in general, of which there are far too many lately.

Plissken
08-18-2006, 12:28 PM
But we do learn, and will continue to do so. You had to learn how to care for corns, just like everyone else. You and I have both made mistakes and will continue to do so, because if we were perfect we wouldn't be people.

It's sad I know, but you can research all you like and not neccessarily come up with the right answers. There will be always be conflicting advice... most of us here agree that co-habbing is bad, but there's always a few who say it can be done. Sometimes you just don't know who to believe.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 01:13 PM
Flagg!!

FYI i am just back from a vet who owns snakes himself, and he doesn't think it was the heat mat. I take your points on board regarding regulating the temp. it was next on my list of things to do come pay day...buy a thermometer. i have done my research ty. I dnt take kindly to you being so scathing. no one asked you to reply, so you didnt have to waste your time.

I had a snake, dying, with no transport to get him to the vet. i thought i would seek advice from knowledgable people. i used the search function before posting.

Snake died from possible obstruction, or gall bladder problem. hard to confirm without a post mortem, which i was too late for, as the place closed.

i will not use this forum again, since at least one of you is way to short with peopl. armed with next to no facts, you assumed that it was one thing, when in fact it was another. Yeah, im new to this game, but im not stupid.

Roy Munson
08-18-2006, 01:17 PM
i will not use this forum again, since at least one of you is way to short with peopl. armed with next to no facts, you assumed that it was one thing, when in fact it was another. Yeah, im new to this game, but im not stupid.Sorry about your snake. But this seems like a strange and immature reaction. Is every human with whom you interact wonderful and adequately sensitive? If not, are you making arrangements to become a hermit? :rolleyes:

skimpy
08-18-2006, 01:24 PM
[QUOTE=bitsy]In that case, I'm afraid the temperature fluctuations were probably quite extreme for a Corn Snake. While we can't be sure what happened, this would be one source of stress.

Introducing another snake could also have caused stress.

It's also possible that the second snake is carrying some sort of disease that has been passed on.

Thanks. I am worried that big AL, the remaining corn, may be carrying something nasty. his behaviour is normal, feeding ok etc. perhaps he carrying something that Milton couldnt handle? more likely cause was stress. Milton didnt like the new addition. despite others thinking im foolish, im not. i had BIG reservations about putting the two together, and that is without reading up on that bit. now i know.

I also didnt know about temperature fluctuations, so now i do, i will purchase more suitable heating, since the heatmat is not reliable.


Thanks again, you have given me some good points to consider. now i gotta go and bury the poor wee bugger.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 01:26 PM
Sorry about your snake. But this seems like a strange and immature reaction. Is every human with whom you interact wonderful and adequately sensitive? If not, are you making arrangements to become a hermit? :rolleyes:

point taken. i am understandably sensitive right now, having lost Milton, and this is compounded by toothache after 4 wisdom extractions the other day. when i posted that, i did not see the other comments. not everyone here is an arse!

Plissken
08-18-2006, 01:40 PM
point taken. i am understandably sensitive right now, having lost Milton, and this is compounded by toothache after 4 wisdom extractions the other day. when i posted that, i did not see the other comments. not everyone here is an arse!

Perfectly understandable, imo...we all know that animals come and go but it doesn't hurt any less.The little guys always touch our hearts don't they?

I hope you can allow this to not knock your confidence as a snake keeper. It doesn't sound to me like you did anything wrong. Sorry for your sad loss.

alyndria
08-18-2006, 01:53 PM
Sorry to hear about your corn.. never easy to lose a pet.


I also didnt know about temperature fluctuations, so now i do, i will purchase more suitable heating, since the heatmat is not reliable.


I'm pretty sure that a UTH is reliable-- I believe Bitsy was referring to turning it off and on. UTH's are left on all day.

Alsoknownas
08-18-2006, 01:57 PM
It doesn't sound to me like you did anything wrong.

Besides lay your trust in a heat mat like that. You need a thermometer so you can have some accurate way of controlling the heat, even if that wasn't the cause of his death.

Ssthisto
08-18-2006, 02:09 PM
Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but....

A thermometer measures the temperature and does not do anything else. It will just tell you what temperature something is. A thermometer will tell you 'yup, your snake's been cooked by high temperatures' ... and that's it.

A thermostat measures the temperature via a probe and then [i]controls[/b] the equipment to maintain a steady temperature by either controlling the 'amount' of electricity getting through (dimmer stat - for light bulbs, usually), sending controlled pulses of electricity to the equipment (pulse stat - anything but light bulbs) or by turning the equipment on and off (on-off or 'mat' stat - anything but lightbulbs, but it's the budget option). A correctly functioning and properly calibrated thermostat will prevent heating equipment from getting to temperatures high enough to cook your snake.

Skimpy, you need a thermostat to control your chosen heating equipment.

I have to admit that if I didn't have ALL of the equipment required to keep my chosen animal correctly, I wouldn't have gotten the animal until I did have all the equipment needed - I really don't believe in 'I'll get the next important thing when I get paid - but I've already got the snake'. Heating equipment and heating control equipment are equally important and both should have been in place and tested before any living animal was put into the environment you'd prepared.

I'm very sorry you lost your little snake, and I hope it wasn't something contagious that will take your other one with it.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:13 PM
thanks for your comments.

im gonna need people like you around if i am going to be any good at this.

cheers :cheers:

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:19 PM
i am well educated....know what difference is between thermometer and thermostat. Milton was a birthday present...very much a surprise. yes, i need the equipment, but im not perfect. thermostat is the ONLY thing i dont have...everything else is perfect. want a picture?

get off the heatmat thing...that didnt kill him. these snakes come from a rescue centre...people have mistreated them before so it not as simple as temperature. and...i have been vetted and checked to make sure i am capable of caring for them.

Flagg
08-18-2006, 02:27 PM
I guess your extensive research didn't turn up any information about quarantine either. I hope your other snake didn't catch whatever the dead one had.

There, is that scathing enough for you?

Dave123
08-18-2006, 02:29 PM
Sorry to hear about the loss of your pet. My first ever corn died of the same thing. I hope you other one is okay.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:33 PM
quite, you old sh*t!! to my knowledge, both snakes were quarantined by the rescue centre. i explained my reservations about putting them together, and was told it would be fine. dont reply to my threads anymore...you are bitter and twisted.

starting trouble with newbies is quite low...are you alright?

Mary-Beth
08-18-2006, 02:34 PM
i have been vetted and checked to make sure i am capable of caring for them.

Huh? :shrugs:

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:35 PM
im not going to be made to feel worse by you Flagg the Nag!! i cant feel worse than i do now.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:37 PM
Huh? :shrugs:

rescue folk know what my setup is, they are confident enough that the snakes went to a good home. had to visit them a few times before taking the snakes. they wouldn't hand them out to anyone is what i meant, but couldn't be bothered explaining. shouldn't have to explain myself constantly :cry:

Mary-Beth
08-18-2006, 02:41 PM
quite, you old sh*t!! to my knowledge, both snakes were quarantined by the rescue centre. i explained my reservations about putting them together, and was told it would be fine. dont reply to my threads anymore...you are bitter and twisted.

starting trouble with newbies is quite low...are you alright?

im not going to be made to feel worse by you Flagg the Nag!! i cant feel worse than i do now.

Ignorance, Insults, and Expletives
Oh my!

Skimpy, the only thing you're going to accomplish by getting defensive and throwing insults around is getting yourself banned. Please don't try to make us think that you are the perfect snake keeper and you can do no wrong. Obviously something IS wrong because you have a dead snake. Everyone makes mistakes, what sets the good keepers apart from the bad ones is how they learn from their mistakes.

Flagg
08-18-2006, 02:41 PM
quite, you old sh*t!! to my knowledge, both snakes were quarantined by the rescue centre. i explained my reservations about putting them together, and was told it would be fine. dont reply to my threads anymore...you are bitter and twisted.

starting trouble with newbies is quite low...are you alright?

Hey, I apologized already in an earlier post and you insisted on throwing down the gauntlet. I'm not the only person who has tried to help that you've been antagonistic towards, so I guess you can take it.

Mary-Beth
08-18-2006, 02:44 PM
rescue folk know what my setup is, they are confident enough that the snakes went to a good home. had to visit them a few times before taking the snakes. they wouldn't hand them out to anyone is what i meant, but couldn't be bothered explaining. shouldn't have to explain myself constantly :cry:


Was the rescue center the place that told you it would be fine to house the snakes together? If it is, then forget everything they've told you and start over from the beginning. The FAQ pages on the forum would be a great place to start.

skimpy
08-18-2006, 02:50 PM
the rescue centre said it was alright to put them together. i now know that i cant do this.

im not implying i am the perfect snake keeper, but there are worse out there. at least i care what has happened. the snake was sick, probably before i got it. he may not have survived long, but at least he did survive, for a while at least. being operated on at three months it is amazing that he lived to be 5 mths.

Plissken
08-18-2006, 02:57 PM
Besides lay your trust in a heat mat like that. You need a thermometer so you can have some accurate way of controlling the heat, even if that wasn't the cause of his death.

I think it has been established that the mat did not kill the snake. Skimpy did not kill the snake, that was my point. I think Skimpy has got the message that she needs a thermostat :shrugs:

skimpy
08-18-2006, 03:06 PM
Well I apologize if my post was insensitive, I thought it was rather reasonably stated. I'm going to stop replying to this kind of thread, its just the same thing over and over again. There's no reason new snake owners should HAVE to learn from their mistakes. This isn't directed at anyone specifically, just this kind of post in general, of which there are far too many lately.


you though it was reasonably stated. that is no kind of apology! take your own comments to heart. stop replying to this kind of thread then!

Mary-Beth
08-18-2006, 03:09 PM
you though it was reasonably stated. that is no kind of apology! take your own comments to heart. stop replying to this kind of thread then!

I'm curious. Do you think you are being reasonable in this thread, Skimpy?

skimpy
08-18-2006, 03:18 PM
I'm curious. Do you think you are being reasonable in this thread, Skimpy?

maybe not. perhaps tommorrow it will become clearer for me. i have just lost my wee snake, which has left me quite upset. then Flagg comes wading in being insensitive and harsh when there was no need.

tell you what....quote me on all my unreasonable statements in this thread... then i will see where it all went wrong!

Mary-Beth
08-18-2006, 03:43 PM
maybe not. perhaps tommorrow it will become clearer for me. i have just lost my wee snake, which has left me quite upset. then Flagg comes wading in being insensitive and harsh when there was no need.

tell you what....quote me on all my unreasonable statements in this thread... then i will see where it all went wrong!

If you can't see the statements you made that were out of line, me pointing them out won't make them any more clear to you. Some of the things you posted were not only extremely rude, but also against the rules of this forum.

I understand that you're upset, but having something bad happen to you doesn't mean you get to ignore rules and abandon all sense of common decency.

Lennycorn
08-18-2006, 03:53 PM
i am well educated....know what difference is between thermometer and thermostat. Milton was a birthday present...very much a surprise. yes, i need the equipment, but im not perfect...... and...i have been vetted and checked to make sure i am capable of caring for them.

Sorry to hear about your snake. I would think that more education is needed for proper husbandry. As you know you shouldn't cohabited and use a thermostat but... Do you feed you snake is a separate container??. You stated that he could of been impacted.
Here is a few links to read up on too.

Good luck to you and you other snake

Search
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38853

Husbandry and such
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28341
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17224
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sh...?p=133428#post6
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28343
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17939&highlight=jello+butt

Free Herp Software
http://www.serpwidgets.com/Apps/apps.html
http://www.proherp.com/
http://www.cornsnakes.nl/
http://home.comcast.net/~spencer62/cornprog.html

Setup
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/t.../bltanksize.htm
http://www.mgreptiles.com/VIROSAN.html
http://www.anapsid.org/blacklight.html
http://arbreptiles.com/cages/flexwire.shtml
http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/tips.shtml
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19168

Miscellaneous
http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/
http://www.moreptiles.com/cornsnake-lifecycle.htm

Cohabitation
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17308
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31192

On-line frozen mice suppliers
http://www.themousefactory.com/
http://cajunmice.com/
http://www.rodentpro.com/index.asp
http://www.bigcheeserodents.com/htt...m/htm/mice.html
http://peticebox.com/
http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/frozen-mice.html for the UK

Ssthisto
08-18-2006, 05:58 PM
thermostat is the ONLY thing i dont have...everything else is perfect.

To be completely honest... if you didn't have a thermostat and thus were using an unregulated heat source, it doesn't matter how nice the hides are or what substrate you used... your setup was nowhere near ideal let alone perfect. I've seen some horrendous photos of burns resulting from unregulated heat mats.

A snake will be perfectly fine in an escape-proof ventilated plastic tub with a bowl of water and a hide, on top of paper towels ... as long as the heating equipment is both adequate and regulated.

I'd advise not waiting until you get paid to get that thermostat - even if you pick one up cheap on eBay or something. It's not an optional bit of kit - it's an essential, as important as the heat mat or the actual container itself.

SnakeAround
08-18-2006, 06:29 PM
To be completely honest... if you didn't have a thermostat and thus were using an unregulated heat source, it doesn't matter how nice the hides are or what substrate you used... your setup was nowhere near ideal let alone perfect. I've seen some horrendous photos of burns resulting from unregulated heat mats.

A snake will be perfectly fine in an escape-proof ventilated plastic tub with a bowl of water and a hide, on top of paper towels ... as long as the heating equipment is both adequate and regulated.

I'd advise not waiting until you get paid to get that thermostat - even if you pick one up cheap on eBay or something. It's not an optional bit of kit - it's an essential, as important as the heat mat or the actual container itself.

I do not use thermostats on any of my snakes, and they cannot be cooked! How come? Cause I use bulbs that CANNOT generate too much heat. Simple, isn't it? Just to point out that one could do without thermostats... Sometimes I put tubs with hatchlings or young snakes on heat mats, but with a washing cloth or newspaper between UTH and tub to control the warmth inside the tub. With a little trial and eroor before putting in a snake, that works too... so outting newspaper between UTH and viv could also work, so a thermostat is not necessary... To be honest, when using a UTH with thermostat, I would be really anxious about the thermostat failing 1 day, which allows my snakes to be cooked... I prefer to only have the risk of electricity failure, causing my snakes to have a chilly day... they will always survive room temps in my house, even in midst winter :rolleyes:

Little disadvantage is that I have to change bulbs now and then, with high temp fluctuations outside, but opening and closing doors or windows do a big part of the job. I do plan on buying some dimmers in the future though so I won't have to change bulbs anymore....

PnyKlr
08-18-2006, 08:44 PM
The "light bulb" issue is that it doesn't heat the substrate as well and a UTH would. It also lowers the humidity. I use a heat lamp and a UTH (controlled by a rheostat; no thermostat). The mat is on the "warm" side, and the lamp helps keep my "cool" side the correct temperature. Strange, I know, but my snakes are in the basement, and it gets very cold down here in the winter, so the lamp keeps the cool side at about 70F. In the summer time, the humidity in my neck of the woods is very high, and the heat lamp is perfect to lower the humidity in the tank (which is at 70% + without the lamp).

To each, his own.

SnakeAround
08-18-2006, 09:16 PM
I know these disadvantages, but my snakes seem to do well. I always provide climbing material so they can get higher up to a warmer zone. In the cooler periods I use reflector bulbs, which do warm the bedding too in the spot it is shining on.

I must say that most of my vivs are from wood and combined in towers, like lots of people have over here, and that keeps warmth in for each viv. Most of them have a floor 'heating' device in a way :smile: I have 2 stand alone glass vivs and they are harder to keep warm. I use reflector bulbs to provide warm spots in them and that seems to work.

Maybe I am just too worried about thermo- or rheo's malfunction, and the UTH with thermostat works better, but I just wanted to state UTH's are not necessarily the most important to buy. I think using lamps is also a more Dutch (European?) way of keeping snakes, like using vivs instead of racks with tubs (and co-habbing, :grin:).

Rorryy
08-19-2006, 01:49 AM
I just replied to Skimpy's new member post before seeing this thread. In the other one, Skimpy, you talk about the snake having a surgery due to a prolapse. Strangely I saw no mention of that rather important element in this thread. Whats up with that?

diamondlil
08-19-2006, 02:43 AM
the rescue centre said it was alright to put them together. i now know that i cant do this.

im not implying i am the perfect snake keeper, but there are worse out there. at least i care what has happened. the snake was sick, probably before i got it. he may not have survived long, but at least he did survive, for a while at least. being operated on at three months it is amazing that he lived to be 5 mths.
here's the operation!

Rorryy
08-19-2006, 02:48 AM
Wow, ok I missed that. :bang: Still seems like a pretty big thing to be barely mentioned :shrugs:

diamondlil
08-19-2006, 03:07 AM
I'm probably going to get abused by 'skimpy' but I'd love to visit this 'rescue centre' and find out what vetting they do and what advice they give. Following the description of the corn as it was dying, I have my doubts about the reality of it all, I'm not saying I can definately smell troll but if one of my animals was dying I personally couldn't give a description of the process on here.

diamondlil
08-19-2006, 03:13 AM
:-offtopic I agree with Blutengel, our leopard gecko is in a wooden viv, I've got 15 and 25 watt bulbs plus a rheostat and get good control over the temperature by switching the bulbs. My place stays at a pretty constant ambient temperature, the heating goes on low but constant all winter, and I also would be too worried about a thermostat failing to have a mat inside her viv

Rorryy
08-19-2006, 03:28 AM
I am still waiting for a more in depth explanation as to why this baby snake was "neutered" (see other thread) :sidestep: if in fact it had an operation at all. I am in no way trying to be mean. Just a wee bit confused. Perhaps this "vetting" rescue center lied to her. I was under the impression that operating on snakes was a pretty risky and costly endeavour especially on a hatchling. This is either a very well meaning rescue center or a well financed one. Do let me know if I am way off base here.

Flagg
08-19-2006, 08:28 AM
The "operation" was only mentioned in passing and not until quite a few posts later, after a bunch of people had hazarded guesses and been chastised for daring to mention that it might have been the completely unregulated and unmonitored heat source.

skimpy
08-19-2006, 07:59 PM
the rescue centre told me that milton was operated on due to a susoected prolapse. if they didnt operate, he would have died. he was 3mths. they looked after him until they saw fit to rehome him, as he seemed to pull through the op ok. strangely, when i took him to the vet to enquire about a post mortem, the vet couldnt see any scars from being operated on, said all that could have been done was that..rather crudely put..his willy had been chopped off...or willies. that is all i know on the matter. no i didnt mention it, because it didnt seem like a part of what killed him. as i mentioned previously, the vet thought it was his gall bladder, or an obstruction, but the lab for doing post mortems was closed for the weekend by the time i got there. i have kept him in the freezer, in the hope that they may still be able to find out wtf happened to him.

more than that, i cannot tell you, coz i dont know. sorry.

as for the question of whether the resue centre exists...i can assure you it does. in my neck of the woods, the highlands, there are no places selling reptiles, since the Merkinch shut down in '04. it is the only one i know of in the area. they looked after milton until they thought he had adequatelypulled through the ordeal. perhaps they were wrong. the owner, as it goes, feels pretty bad about the whole thing.

bitsy
08-20-2006, 07:06 AM
the vet couldnt see any scars from being operated on

A prolapse is usually pretty straightforward and doesn't require cut-and-stitch type surgery to replace. It's usually just (to put it crudely) gently shoved back in. It would only be removed if the prolapse had been neglected and the prolapsed part had become necrotic. Even then, I wouldn't expect to see any external signs of surgery. It's a concern that the vet you consulted was expecting evidence of a surgical procedure.

Also, the gall bladder in Corns always becomes visible after death. I don't know the medical term, but I think this may be the earliest stage of decomposition. Again, worrying that your vet saw it as a possible contribution to death, rather than an expected result of it.

I don't mean any disrespect, but from what you've reported of his comments, it sounds like he may be a little inexperienced with reptiles?

As a general comment, I can't imagine how a prolapse could have resulted in death, unless some kind of systemic infection had set in. I think that would be quite rare. Maybe the post mortem will be able to tell.

i have kept him in the freezer, in the hope that they may still be able to find out wtf happened to him

I'm afraid that putting the snake's body in the freezer will have destroyed evidence. Freezing causes cellular breakdown and any post portem after defrosting would find more internal organ damage caused by the freezing/defrosting process, than by any illness or injury. This is likely to mask the true cause of death. Cooling in the fridge would have been better. Sorry you were poorly advised on this point.

skimpy
08-21-2006, 09:02 AM
Thank you for your detailed response. The vet I took Milton to has kept reptiles, particularly snakes, for years. he had said he expected to see a scar because the snake equivalent of testes (dont know vet terminology) would require a surgical incision to remove, rather than just the bits that were gone. the dark patch where the gall bladder was situated caused him concern because it was swollen, and the snake was dead no more than an hour. however i accept that decompopsition perhaps was responsible for this.

he was knowledgable on the subject and i trust him. i have registered Big Al with him for any future treatment he may require. if it turns out i am wrong on this, im pretty stuffed, coz there are only three vets in the area catering for reptiles. ive been advised against one, for questionable treatment on an iguana, and the other two are at the same practise, where i took milton.

I was not told to freeze him and try for a post mortem today. the vet implied that i''d missed the boat in that respect, so it is only my fault that any evidence has been destroyed, since i was concerned that cause of death was not confirmed. however, it seems that, at the moment, Big Al is not displaying any symptoms of illness. he fed on Saturday with no problems. Milton refused to feed at first, then two days later he died.

Ultimately, anyone can suppose on what happened to milton, but it is not going to be definitive. a range of possibilities have been discussed and as a result, i know a lot more than i did, and for that, i am thankful. let's just hope that it was an isolated incident, in a snake whose full background was not known to me or the rescue centre. what was known is that he had health problems, which cannot be disregarded as a contributing factor in his death.

Thanks again for your detailed response, i have learned a lot. now i can go and bury him and close this incident.

i am not going to give up on snakes. i felt like finding a home for Al over the weekend after this thread gathered pace, however im confident that i can give him a good home, despite what some people on this forum think of my ability. i know all posts here were constructive, and i have taken stock of them and reflected on them. if i were any of you looking in on my situation, i would ask the same questions....perhaps with more tact, but i would be thinking similarly. Thanks again to ALL contributers. :wavey:

skimpy
08-21-2006, 09:20 AM
Sorry to hear about your snake. I would think that more education is needed for proper husbandry. As you know you shouldn't cohabited and use a thermostat but... Do you feed you snake is a separate container??. You stated that he could of been impacted.
Here is a few links to read up on too.

Good luck to you and you other snake

Search
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38853

Husbandry and such
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28341
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17224
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sh...?p=133428#post6
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28343
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17939&highlight=jello+butt

Free Herp Software
http://www.serpwidgets.com/Apps/apps.html
http://www.proherp.com/
http://www.cornsnakes.nl/
http://home.comcast.net/~spencer62/cornprog.html

Setup
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/t.../bltanksize.htm
http://www.mgreptiles.com/VIROSAN.html
http://www.anapsid.org/blacklight.html
http://arbreptiles.com/cages/flexwire.shtml
http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/tips.shtml
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19168

Miscellaneous
http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/
http://www.moreptiles.com/cornsnake-lifecycle.htm

Cohabitation
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17308
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31192

On-line frozen mice suppliers
http://www.themousefactory.com/
http://cajunmice.com/
http://www.rodentpro.com/index.asp
http://www.bigcheeserodents.com/htt...m/htm/mice.html
http://peticebox.com/
http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/frozen-mice.html for the UK

Thanks very much for this. i always fed them separately, never together. i will spend this free afternoon trawling through this lot. off sick this week, four impacted wisdom teeth removed, so not feeling too sprightly. week after extractions, still feel like it wasnt worth having the op. ah, tomorrow is another day!

seriously, cheers for this. i need all the help i can get. my foundational knowledge is ok, but i need more. :cheers:

KaspR
08-22-2006, 08:09 AM
This thread (aside from the violence) is very interesting to me. I just posted a thread as my snake is acting very similar to what was diescribed, he has been very healthy active and feeding up till last ngith adn now he just loks really listless staring off to know where, barely moving at all I actually thought he died last night but this morning he was in a different place. my temps are regulated at 87 on the warm and 74 on the cool side. I certainly hope he doesn't have a blackage but he will be visiting the vet.