Emory female still not feeding...

[SnakeAround]

The last meal she kept in completely was a large weaned rat on June 26.... after that she regurged 1 of 2 hoppers and the next meal 1 of 2 pinkies. I tried a fuzzie after 10 days, she regurged and after another 10 days a pinky she regurged.

I tried GSE and nutribac, had her stool tested 2 twice (completely without parasites) but she did get a vitamin injection and antibio from the vet I took her too. After 3 days of antibio she started getting into blue, I stopped antibio after 7 days cause the vet told me too if everything went right, and shedding seemed a good sign to me. I started adding some GSE and nutribac to her water again. I stopped the GSE and Nutribac after a couple of days. After shedding I offered a pinky; no interest. Since her last meal had been ages ago, I decided to halfly force fed a weaned rats paw a week later; she ate it after pushing it a bit into her throath. She kept it in, and since she has been in a separate tub from a week before the antibio I am sure she did ot poo undigested rat; there was a very small poo which did not stink at all, no rat mousse''. But she still refuses to eat herself.

Conclusion; stomach is pretty much ok, but she might be traumatized by all the tries of feeding her? She has never been a very enthusiastic eater anyway.....

So, I see several options;

1. halfly force fed another rat paw, continuing untill she eats herself
2. try another type of prey
3. go to the vet again for blood test/fecal bacterial lab test
4. buy lizard maker and try that on a pinkie and/or rat paw
5. any hatchling feeding trick?
6. Anything else?

Thanks for advising, I feel desperate by now!

By the way her weight is down from just over 600 grams to 500 now.. if she losses more weihgt she starts to get skinny I think, now she looks just slender. Since the antibio she is more active and and stronger, a.k.a. just about healthy behaving.

[diamondlil]

Maybe a live peach fuzzy? Or a pink if that would be too big a jump from the rat's paw?

[SnakeAround]

I tried a live mouse pink before the antibio, maybe now after the antibio it works.... I think I'm gonna get me 2 or 3 types of live baby's this weekend.....

[vanderkm]

Multiple regurgitations in an adult animal combined with refusal to feed suggest a significant underlying disease problem that I don't think you will resolve through using different prey items or methods of getting hatchlings to feed. I think that repeated attempts to get her to feed at this point may be more stressful than helpful.

In my experience, adult corns don't regurgitate unless conditions are very wrong (and I doubt your temps are off by that much or she has been that stressed) or they have an underlying disease. There are many conditions that could cause this and if you wish to pursue it and have an experienced vet, I suggest getting bloodwork and Xrays done to try and sort out whether this is a problem with digestion (liver or pancreas function) or perhaps a gut blockage. Do you know how old she is? Any history of previous problems?

Another option, though I hesitate to suggest it because it is not typically a good idea to brumate a less than perfectly healthy animal, is to put her through a cooling period. If a diagnostic workup is not an option for you, then sometimes a complete rest for the gut can give an animal time to recover on their own. Being at lower temperatures will also reduce the metabolic rate and weight loss if she isn't going to eat anyway. We also find that our snakes are very interested in food when coming out of brumation. Just be aware that this is more of a 'last resort' option, but I think it is preferable to something like forcefeeding if you cannot get an actual diagnosis done on her.

best of luck with whatever you choose and keep us posted,


mary v.

[SnakeAround]

Thanks for your extensive reply. I do know that my yellow rat that came from the same seller, got an RI at my place which cured but was followed by similar stomach problems, which were as severe as her throwing up chunks of mucus from her stomach. She had been very skinny all her life at the seller, thought she ate 2-3 mice a week. He told me she was healthy except for that, he allso bred her 4 yrs in a row succesfully. Back then I believed it and I got her for free cause he would not be able to sell a skinny snake. That yellow rat completely recovered after 3 weeks of antibio and has gained over 200 grams to get to normal proportions and now happily lives and even gaines a little more weight at 1 weaner rat a week.... so she had severe problems in the years before...

The emoryi lady was housed together with that yellow rat female and a big male corn in 1 viv, which was allso portrait shaped and too small, it had no hides only some branches. They had been housed like that 4 yrs in a row and both females had 1 or maybe even 2 clutches every year. Yes, they were in a stressfull situation... But since I was a BIG noob back then, I thought he knew what he was doing.... now I know better.

The emoryi is supposed to be 6 years old and has always been a not too enthusiastic eater, skipped now and then the seller told me. At my place she always ate except very early before shed, but not really enthusiastic. The period before her refusal and regurge problems started, she ate even better then ever, and soemtimes grabbed a prey instead of eating it slowly after a couple of minutes in the dark! Since I had bred her in early spring, I thought she might be gravid after all and did not worry.... but I have not seen signs of it. An experienced breeder inspected her in July for me and confirmed he did not see or feel any reason to suspect eggs.

I think the first refusal might have been after a move to another viv and a subsequent heat wave, not sure about exact timing back then. From about a week before her antibio I housed her in a relatively small tub but I put her back in her own viv a couple of days ago cause she refised in the tub allso. I hoped this move might trigger a feed response perhaps....

Don't you think that the fact that the halfly force fed rat paw has been completely digested as normal, indicates that her digestional system is ok? I have a strong idea that her refusal is merely 'psychological'.... I might have trained her to refuse... to me it does confirm at least that it is not a blockage.

Since she stil has a healthy weight, maybe a brumation might work and be safe at the moment.... maybe a blood test first to ensure it has not something to do with malfunction of an organ... It might be very difficult though to cool her down 24 hours a day this time of the year.

I hope to get some more input!

[SnakeAround]

I planned on buying some exotic rodent baby as a last try this weekend and then bloodwork being done if she would still not eat, but she ate a large fuzzie today!!!!!!

I had to 'play the living mouse that is not scary' with a tongue and the fuzzie for 15 minutes in her viv; getting away if she comes closer, hiding, popping up somewhere else, she followed it at a distance, came close, sniffed, then backed off again, I touched her body with it and she came back on and on and on..... warming the fuzzie now and then.... hell did my wrist cramp form holding the tongue! She then slithered into her hide, with her head just behind the entrance like she was thinking; 'Now come in so I can eat you in peace!' I put the fuzzie in front of the entrance, and within 5 minutes she pulled it in and swallowed, YAY! I knew it was psychic!!! Now all hope with me that digesting goes well :rolleyes: But since she digested the rat paw 2 weeks ago, I feel pretty good about that.... but I still feel a little anxious in the stomach waiting a couple of days :rolleyes:

Only thing was, that because of the position of her hide and a big piece of wood, I could not place the fuzzie on a plastic lid, so I had to put it on the bedding.... but I felt it was the only chance I had so I took the slight risk of some bedding going along with the fuzzie :shrugs:

Ow, and now my striped cali king lady is refusing.... :eek1: I so much hope it is just coincidence.... I always disinfect hands after handling Freya or grabbing stuff in her viv.

[SnakeAround]

By the way, the fuzzie was a left over so I just decided to try a bit....

[Roy Munson]

I hope she keeps it down, Barbara.

[SnakeAround]

Thanks, then I can really do a happy dance!

[SnakeAround]

I think Freya finally rebounded!!!! :dunce:

The rat fuzzie meal described above was regurged, so I decided to make an appointment wit a VET I heared of 50 km away (which is far away for us Dutchies to see a VET). She was terrific!!!!! She spent 40 mins with me and Freya, of which she handled Freya for 20 mins to search for any symptom, but she did not find anything externally or inside her mouth. She managed to get some bowel matter out of Freya with a flush of water and inspected like 5 samples of it to be certain she did not oversee anything... she saw no parasites and no bacteria at all, probaly because of the doxicycline she already had been given. She decided to give Freya Flagyl and told me that doxicycline is pretty much useless for intestinal bacterial infections/overgrow of bad bacteria cause it is has a very small spectrum for these bugs. Flagyl is specifically meant to be used in case of severely imbalanced digestional flora to fight a broad spectrum of types of bugs, hence figthing related infections and toxifications. But most of you probably knew that...

So, after a 10 day application of Flagyl (during which she really got very alert and hung around close to the glass front of her viv all day), I gave her a day rest and on the second day I syringed in a heavy solution of Nutribac and a vitamin supplement with a.o. vit b for appetite. On day 3 I offered a pinky briefly but she showed no interest. I was not worried too much cause Flagyl is known for reducing appetite in many cases. Next day I left a cut pinky over night, she did not touch it. On day 5 I put her in her hide, served a live pinky on a lid in front of her 'door' and after a couple of hours she ate it! This method had worked last time she ate too.... just confront her with it when she wants to get out :grin01: Yesterday I found a very normal looking 'pinky remains' sized poo and she did not regurge today, while the 3rd day after feeding has been 'regurge day' since things started.... so I can do the happy dance now!!! Now I have to restrain myself from feeding too soon again and wait 6 days (at least 5 :rolleyes: ) and to serve one pinky only again...

I'm so glad that she had enough (muscle) mass to loose 150 grams (according to the VET's scale, on mine she lost more) and still look only very slender... I think she might have died if she had been 'model sized' to begin with... not to promote fat critters, but some muscled mass and roundness came in handy this time...

[SnakeAround]

By the way, the VET also tested for 'parrot's disease' (external lab) , chlamydia and crypto and the whole package incl. flagyl only costed me 36 euro/close to 40 dollar which allso made me decide to never go to another VET with a snake again! There was a possibility she would get a bill for the external test for 29 dollar which I would have to pay too of course but since it is 18 days ago now I don't expect to receive it anymore... even then the costs seem very low to me! Hurray for VET's with a good lab relation! :)

[SnakeAround]

package as in 'including everything'

[Eremita]

Congratulations, Barbara. It is always good to hear about snakes coming around after they are unwell.

-Sean

[dionythicus]

That is wonderful news! Once you find the right vet, never change. Good luck.

[diamondlil]

Wow, amazing thread, I just read it straight through. It sounds like those snakes are so lucky they are with you now instead of their former 'knowledgable' owner. Good luck!

[SnakeAround]

Thanks guys! I feel like a heavy burden has left me.... but not 100% until she really attacks a meal :rolleyes:

[BeckyG]

Good luck with that. We're pulling for you!